Update - Thursday, May 22, 2008 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

23 May 2008 at 16:15 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgarvin

Who are the "right" people? And is your idea of the right group of people the same as everyone else's?

I think it's safe to say that making the game easier, and easier, and easier, and easier is *not* a great thing to do. And listening to someone who refuses to see any other alternatives is also something not great to do.

I don't think any game company should listen to forums. Granted, there may be some pretty controversial issues that the developers may want to take into consideration, but they should only use those voiced opinions as slight reference.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

23 May 2008 at 16:15 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgarvin

Who are the "right" people?

Probably the people who enjoy a challenge.

Don't act stupid.

street peddler

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

23 May 2008 at 16:18 - 163

my only complaint is how they put the (PvP) right in the skill name, its kind of annoying.

kobey

GW Retiree

Join Date: Nov 2005

Sg Unknown [KATE]

W/

23 May 2008 at 16:21 - 164

After this update, I have this weird feeling ...

I realised I actually wish to see nerfs more than buffs.

fgarvin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

23 May 2008 at 16:23 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~ Dan ~

Probably the people who enjoy a challenge.

Don't act stupid.

Wanting a challenge makes a person right....hmmm
So, wanting to mindlessly farm, as SF allows one to do, makes a person wrong.

Now I got, thanks.

And, btw, thanks for reminding me of the proper way to behave...and in such a polite way as well.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

23 May 2008 at 16:49 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgarvin

Who are the "right" people? And is your idea of the right group of people the same as everyone else's?

the people winning gvg tourneys (and ladders)?
teh people winning hvh tourneys (and ladders)?
teh people winning halls on a consistent basis?
teh people who r officers in top pve guilds who have completed all teh 'elite' areas in hm numerous times?

mostly 3 reqs:
they have to be good at teh game
they have to actively participate in teh community wit other people
they have to be knowledgeable in all teh skills and wut everybody uses

u need experts from each aspect of pvp talkin together
even pvp'rs talkin wit pve'rs
as diverse a crowd as u can get

teh problem is a lot of ppl here qq'n bout skill changes r prolly h/h'rs & solo farmers
sowrie...but ppl who only h/h shouldnt get much of a say
and a large portion of pve'rs tend to h/h

now wut makes this update even worse, is that it mostly caters to teh h/h'rs & solo farmers

edit: it seems gw is becoming more and more a soloplay game?
perhaps anet wants to fully do so by shutting down the gw1 servers when gw2 comes out to save money...
and making gw1 literally a solo offline rpg game? -___-'
7 heroes ftw?

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

23 May 2008 at 16:51 - 167

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

the

I think you misspelled 'teh' there.

super strokey

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Soviet Canuckistan

N/

23 May 2008 at 16:56 - 168

WEll im hoping after its all said and done that there will be a good raptor farming build for HM for necros lol. I cant quite get fuzzy tacos to work with out dying at the end.

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

23 May 2008 at 17:03 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i honestly believe this is the start of the end of Guild Wars.

Here's a post we've seen repeated since about two months into Prophecies...

fgarvin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

23 May 2008 at 17:03 - 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I think you misspelled 'teh' there.

Bastard...you beat me to it. He exerted sooo much effort into looking like whatever he was trying to look like, and that one word ruined it for him.

btw...what exactly was he going for there? I thought typing like that had gone out of style?

|pyro|

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Me/

23 May 2008 at 17:07 - 171

I like new updates, I can laugh so hard to the point of almost having a seizure when reading the comments.
Ty A-Net, please make more buffs and nerfs to random skills, a seizure could make my life shorter, but I never like to miss a good laugh, ty again.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

23 May 2008 at 17:10 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgarvin

Wanting a challenge makes a person right...

I think it's more not wanting the game to become worse.

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

23 May 2008 at 18:33 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgarvin

Who are the "right" people? And is your idea of the right group of people the same as everyone else's?

trust me, by reading the forums or knowing people in game, you'd be able to answer this pretty quickly.

The "Right" people as you put it, would be the ones who have the experience, knowledge, and time put into this game that would give them a better viewpoint on what would be better for the community as a whole. Players like Ensign, JR, Black Mischief, Divine Ambassador, Racthoh, Arkantos, (and a group of a few others including myself

just kidding) would have an un-imaginable wealth of knowledge and ideas that would be better for this game in 900 different ways than the bullshit they have done in the past 2 years since prophecies.

The sad thing is that Arena Net chose not to take ANY of the good ideas as far as skills and balancing are concerned and sadly chose to listen to "Joe Average" that has little to no clue outside of the game besides his own build to see exactically why things are the way they are and why it would need to be changed. Theres a lot of you, even on this same forum, that have that same stigma about skill changes.

The PvE/PvP debate is quite honestly a stupid one. No one area is better than the other. The goal is to make both challenging and both fun at the same time. This could be very easily accomplished by just adding more similarities between the two, instead of driving the two further apart.

Lordhelmos

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Sentients of Shadow (noir)

Me/E

23 May 2008 at 18:47 - 174

An all around good update, splitting the pvp skills apart from pve was a step in the right direction. This is what people have been asking for throughout last year.

After this update, I think the state of the game pvp-wise is in pretty good shape.

I like ether renewal, light of deliverance, and incoming being playable in pve. More flavor in pve skill selection is always good.

Good riddance shadow form, and raptor farmers are still happy.

This direction in which the game is moving is full of win, although it hit a little late.

With so much focus on Gw2, I have to give it up to ANET for still putting alot of effort in keeping the state of this game pretty fresh. This is really alot coming from me, who usually has negative things to say about pve and balances, especially with ursan and pve mechanics. But really after doing so much title grinding and alternating between TA, AB, HA, and farming/missions; I just kind of got used to the existence of UB and it doesn't really bug me as much as it did before. Namely because alot of the problems in PvE and bad playing experiences really stem from idiot players and fail pugs more than imbalances in the game.

Imbalances can be fun at times, like the 24 man party glitch before it was fixed.

It's is good to see that this game isn't just being thrown to the side and the directions in which Guildwars is being taken with so much work put into skill divisions and balancing is making the transition to gw2 better for me.

I think I really just got tired of complaining, because GW is a pretty good game. Not perfect, but its still getting alot of dev. attention.

People who are flaming and trolling about this generally positive update should go back to hiding under their bridge or go die in a fire.

Rocky Raccoon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Massachusetts, USA

Guardians of the Cosmos

R/Mo

23 May 2008 at 18:55 - 175

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

the people winning gvg tourneys (and ladders)?
teh people winning hvh tourneys (and ladders)?
teh people winning halls on a consistent basis?
teh people who r officers in top pve guilds who have completed all teh 'elite' areas in hm numerous times?

mostly 3 reqs:
they have to be good at teh game
they have to actively participate in teh community wit other people
they have to be knowledgeable in all teh skills and wut everybody uses

u need experts from each aspect of pvp talkin together
even pvp'rs talkin wit pve'rs
as diverse a crowd as u can get

teh problem is a lot of ppl here qq'n bout skill changes r prolly h/h'rs & solo farmers
sowrie...but ppl who only h/h shouldnt get much of a say
and a large portion of pve'rs tend to h/h

now wut makes this update even worse, is that it mostly caters to teh h/h'rs & solo farmers

edit: it seems gw is becoming more and more a soloplay game?
perhaps anet wants to fully do so by shutting down the gw1 servers when gw2 comes out to save money...
and making gw1 literally a solo offline rpg game? -___-'
7 heroes ftw?

Maybe if you learned how to spell "the" people might take you seriously.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

23 May 2008 at 18:58 - 176

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Reality is line of logic fails there just as much as it does on yours. It is is silly (I'll be polite here) to think that because people would rather have the old Splinter Weapon back that they want a ten million damage skill.

There is too little power and there is too much power. Some will draw the lines in different places.

That line is exactly the problem. I have seen nothing that tells me that the "average" PvE player (NOT ALL) cares about balance here or anywhere else.

If Anet created a PvE only skill that read: "Do 1 million AoE damage to all foes in the area", sure there would be a lot of complaints on these forums. But I am STRONGLY guessing that a ton of players would enjoy it very much. There is very little difference between this hypothetical skill and Ursan...they are both easy button and lead me to believe that Anet cares less about balance and more about keeping the majority happy.

And by the logic some people are using here, I could easily say about that hypothetical skill "well let others have their fun as long as I don't have to use it"!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

The PvE/PvP debate is quite honestly a stupid one. No one area is better than the other. The goal is to make both challenging and both fun at the same time. This could be very easily accomplished by just adding more similarities between the two, instead of driving the two further apart.

Agree. One of the defining things of Prophecies was the similarities between the two. Now they are seperated and completely different.

dark_slayer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

We Still Got It [MOJO] Leader

23 May 2008 at 18:58 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

People who are flaming and trolling about this generally positive update should go back to hiding under their bridge or go die in a fire.

Right on.....I couldint have sed it better my self.

Snograt

rattus rattus

Join Date: Jan 2006

London, UK GMT??0 ??1hr DST

[GURU]GW [wiki]GW2

R/

23 May 2008 at 19:35 - 178

Dear ANet,

Un-nerf [[ew], buff [[dust trap] and I'll never ask for anything else again, honest.

Love, Snograt

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

23 May 2008 at 19:39 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

That line is exactly the problem. I have seen nothing that tells me that the "average" PvE player (NOT ALL) cares about balance here or anywhere else.

The average PvE'er cares that they hafe "fun" - that is what balance means in PvE. That means that they get to walk around and kill things and have some chance of dying - usually in the same spot so they can work around it. Anything that breaks that is "unbalanced". Ursan groups can, and still do, die. Even with the older versions of skills the groups still died in some spots and had to work around it. That is the equivilent of the 2000 calorie per day diet.

The instant win button is the 100,000 calorie per day - it may be good a few times but will not retain any value over a short period of time.

Quote:

they are both easy button and lead me to believe that Anet cares less about balance and more about keeping the majority happy.

They are not the same button, again if you *really* want to argue that then I can't stop you from wearing an "I'm stupid" sign. And, of course Anet wants to keep the majority happy - do you know of any successfully game out there that doesn't? Do you really and truly think that the path to success is to make the majority of people leave and cater to the minority?

I generally think that most do not really know what they want, that most have an inability (self imposed, not that they are incapable of doing it) to think through the consequences of their actions. In this case that majority doesn't care as long as "fun" is maintained and I firmly think that the people wanting PvP like "balance" will *hate* the game. Same thing happened with the locked gates requests - we got them in the form people asked for in Factions. Anet learned the hard way that *they* have to be the ones to think things through. Nor is it confined only to video games - see the number of variable rate sub-prime home loans for 5+ times your yearly income for a real world example.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

23 May 2008 at 19:39 - 180

yes and make them work in the Zaishen Elite.

also buff tease.

and mending.

and make boon prots work in PvE.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

23 May 2008 at 20:12 - 181

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgarvin

Wanting a challenge makes a person right....hmmm
So, wanting to mindlessly farm, as SF allows one to do, makes a person wrong.

What has farming got to do with challenge? Learning the AI means that it's done.

Especially since when you farm you're going for cash and not challenge.

DutchSmurf

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

23 May 2008 at 20:59 - 182

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

After this update, I think the state of the game pvp-wise is in pretty good shape.

If dead is a good shape, then yes. But a little more serious, the game is the same before as after the update, because nothing changed.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

23 May 2008 at 21:22 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

trust me, by reading the forums or knowing people in game, you'd be able to answer this pretty quickly.

The "Right" people as you put it, would be the ones who have the experience, knowledge, and time put into this game that would give them a better viewpoint on what would be better for the community as a whole. Players like Ensign, JR, Black Mischief, Divine Ambassador, Racthoh, Arkantos, (and a group of a few others including myself

just kidding) would have an un-imaginable wealth of knowledge and ideas that would be better for this game in 900 different ways than the bullshit they have done in the past 2 years since prophecies.

The sad thing is that Arena Net chose not to take ANY of the good ideas as far as skills and balancing are concerned and sadly chose to listen to "Joe Average" that has little to no clue outside of the game besides his own build to see exactically why things are the way they are and why it would need to be changed. Theres a lot of you, even on this same forum, that have that same stigma about skill changes.

The PvE/PvP debate is quite honestly a stupid one. No one area is better than the other. The goal is to make both challenging and both fun at the same time. This could be very easily accomplished by just adding more similarities between the two, instead of driving the two further apart.

The problem is, people with knowledge and experience are far outnumbered by people who want to breeze through every part of PvE (no, I'm not saying people who want to breeze through PvE have no knowledge or experience). ANet listens to the majority because the more they please = more happy customers = more money. It took 3 years to separate the balances, and Izzy himself said they would never do that. They did it because after 3 years of non stop whining, they realized these people would be more likely to buy GW2 if ANet gave into them. Like every company and business, money comes first. And like every MMORPG, people who have been playing since the beginning are getting ignored, while the newer players are getting all the attention.

Instead of ANet finding a way to make both aspects of the game fun and challenging at the same time, they just completely separated the two apart. They took the easy way out, even though I'm sure they could have come up with something else. Oh well, Guild Wars is turning into a GW2 guinea pig, so whatever.

Divine Xan

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

lfg atm... >.>

23 May 2008 at 21:36 - 184

Why cant they nerf things that make PvE easy, people just want everything laid on a plate for them (its a game, but what is the point of a game without a challenge, none)... seriously... the only challenging thing is some areas of HM... then you can just ursan it with consumables... why is there never a balancing of pve skills(/skill versions/atrributes etc) i can think of only a couple done recently.. Seed of Life... SR (which was mainly for pvp anyway) and.. wait?... nope... nothing else that actually matters now...

anyway thats just an opinion..

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

23 May 2008 at 21:46 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Oh well, Guild Wars is turning into a GW2 guinea pig, so whatever.

I like to believe that there is some hidden logic — a master plan of some sorts — behind all the dreadful and half-hearted design decisions that have reshaped a brilliantly conceived online cooperative multiplayer game into a bland singleplayer game (bears-only tourist mode not included) that happens to be played online.

The sequel to Guild Wars I look forward to is called Diablo 3.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

23 May 2008 at 21:51 - 186

I guess it saddens me that WoW players are smarter than most people here. There isn't much of a PvE/PvP divide at all on WoW. People very rarely complain about the other side.

Yet a ton of people here can't grasp the concept of skill balances being based around competitive play because it involves players fighting it.

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

23 May 2008 at 22:00 - 187

goes to show you what 15 bux a month buys u....

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

23 May 2008 at 22:02 - 188

Everyone knows WoW PvP is a joke, that's why.

Besides, I don't care if they ruin GW to make GW2 better. The game was getting stale. I'll just consider it Anet's little Kamikaze.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

23 May 2008 at 22:15 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Everyone knows WoW PvP is a joke, that's why.

Besides, I don't care if they ruin GW to make GW2 better. The game was getting stale. I'll just consider it Anet's little Kamikaze.

Yeah, it's a joke, and it does a better job of keeping its community together, which is kind of sad.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

23 May 2008 at 22:17 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

goes to show you what 15 bux a month buys u....

But then you have to play enough to merit paying 15 dollars a month

Molock

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Qu??bec

Legacy of Angels [Halo]

E/

23 May 2008 at 22:27 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

But then you have to play enough to merit paying 15 dollars a month

$15 isn't much, and anyway... if you play WoW casually you have no chance of enjoying it.

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

23 May 2008 at 22:34 - 192

WoW professional PvP died because it was made into an e-sport.

World PvP was fun, though.

bel unbreakable

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

scotland

shadow hunters of light

W/Mo

23 May 2008 at 23:25 - 193

the problem is the people with the knowledge and experience are far outnumbered by the people who think they have the knowledge and experience any sane and reasonable concern our top pve people make about the game is completly ruined by those mirror hugging retards who think their only purpose in life is to spoil the fun of those less able than them selves

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

23 May 2008 at 23:27 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

WoW professional PvP died because it was made into an e-sport.

There's no such thing as professional PvP. There's PvP with in-real-life and in-game rewards, but no one's making a living playing WoW competitively.

(Or are they? I honestly have no idea.)

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

24 May 2008 at 00:03 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

There's no such thing as professional PvP. There's PvP with in-real-life and in-game rewards, but no one's making a living playing WoW competitively.

(Or are they? I honestly have no idea.)

They probably are.

What he meant by professional PvP is professional hardcore players.

Darkobra

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Type like an idiot, I'll treat you like an idiot

E/Me

24 May 2008 at 00:56 - 196

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Maybe if you learned how to spell "the" people might take you seriously.

Oh, don't stop there. Also learn "you", "your", "you're"... In fact, just take the knife out of Oxford's back and everything will be fine.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

24 May 2008 at 01:54 - 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The problem is, people with knowledge and experience are far outnumbered by people who want to breeze through every part of PvE (no, I'm not saying people who want to breeze through PvE have no knowledge or experience). ANet listens to the majority because the more they please = more happy customers = more money.

- If they're going that route, why not just give the players some kind of skill editor for PvE-version skills? It equals Ursan in stupidity, but it would be heaps more fun.

What makes Diablo II so fun? Because you can mod it. PlugY lets you have infinite stash (in GW you cry for more storage space) and lets you have other conveniences in single-player like re-allocating skill and attribute points. I remember playing one mod where you can play as a monster character. There's also some really challenging mods out there. Some people like to have stupidly easy game and rare items dropping from every monster - well there's a mod for that too. Some people like infinite progression - mods with stat-boosting items exist. It's your choice what you want to experience. Having played a game like this and occasionally coming to see how you all grief over stupid shit ANET does sounds, well, silly.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

24 May 2008 at 02:12 - 198

Some people like griefing over stupid shit ANET does.

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

24 May 2008 at 02:18 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Some people like griefing over stupid shit ANET does.

Its what keeps us going

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

24 May 2008 at 02:21 - 200

If people want to kill off tons of stuff, GW is not like Diablo2 in that regard.
GW is also not like a free World of Warcraft or other fully fledged MMO.

GW demanded some player adaption early on, but nowadays one bear suits all sizes, hehe.

GW cannot compete with grinder games for grind or diablo2 for sheer bodycount.

GW unfortunately develops more and more into both, mob sizes were beefed up and see EOTN and the bonus mission packs: We got mobs consisting of tons of low level monsters and extremely powerful skills to "kill lots of mobs in an epic way". See Turai Ossa's story and Saul's story e.g..

GW is turning more and more into a glorified single player grind online game.

We should not forget that the mission bonus pack was oh so well received: It was us who gave them the impression that this kind of gameplay rocks. But who really wants to run around with Sauls Uber-Signet killing of tons of 10 level lower mobs outside the bonus campaign?

I can only hope they realize soon that they cannot keep people playing with this for extended periods. If not, Blizzard is working on Diablo 3 already and there are other upcoming games. They have to be better than this if they want to survive.