Update - Thursday, May 22, 2008 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

23 May 2008 at 01:36 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Yet 18 months to 2 years ago, this split concept was the only way to SAVE the game, according to this community.

I sure as hell wasn't one of them. The PvE PvP blend that this game had in Prophecies was one of the things that made it great. There wasn't NEARLY as much conflict garbage back then.

Speaking of PvE skills, I have a serious question. Assuming it didnt affect AI enemies (ie: they didn't have the same skills), would anybody mind if orison of healing healed for 3000 and splinter weapon hit for 10 million? That way some players could destroy the game if they wanted, and those who wanted a challenge wouldn't have to use them? That is literally the impression I am getting around here.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

23 May 2008 at 01:51 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I sure as hell wasn't one of them. The PvE PvP blend that this game had in Prophecies was one of the things that made it great. There wasn't NEARLY as much conflict garbage back then.

Speaking of PvE skills, I have a serious question. Assuming it didnt affect AI enemies (ie: they didn't have the same skills), would anybody mind if orison of healing healed for 3000 and splinter weapon hit for 10 million? That way some players could destroy the game if they wanted, and those who wanted a challenge wouldn't have to use them? That is literally the impression I am getting around here.

A lot of people have no clue what balance is, and therefore think Paragons suck, SR sucks, and Splinter Weapon sucks.

They don't.

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

23 May 2008 at 01:54 - 83

Perhaps the most surprising thing is that this thread has only 80 posts so far.

Star Gazer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

Zerohour Enterprises [ZHE]

W/

23 May 2008 at 01:58 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

It's so easy to be swayed by peer sentiment.

WHAT?! on GURU?! kids following kids? NEVAR!!!11one

three words for this update:

best.
update.
ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Speaking of PvE skills, I have a serious question. Assuming it didnt affect AI enemies (ie: they didn't have the same skills), would anybody mind if orison of healing healed for 3000 and splinter weapon hit for 10 million? That way some players could destroy the game if they wanted, and those who wanted a challenge wouldn't have to use them? That is literally the impression I am getting around here.

sure, make a petition ill sign for it. no i wont use it, but ZOMGOSH!! its my decision on if i want to bring it or not

o wait, this is guru. like post above, people tend to follow. this is no exception.

Lykan

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

StP

R/

23 May 2008 at 02:18 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i honestly believe this is the start of the end of Guild Wars.

amen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Man, I am an idiot.

Finally admitted it, you made my day.

-Sonata-

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Pretty Hate Machines [NIN]

Me/

23 May 2008 at 02:36 - 86

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Who made that great quote around here about "marrying and divorcing" their computer games?

-raises itty bity hand-

But on-topic; I'm going to give this seperation some future skill updates before I say if I like it, or not. Feels like this update was more, or less getting the ground work done before getting into more detailed adjustments.

I do like the prospect of it though.

bj91x

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

23 May 2008 at 02:39 - 87

If they change some of the skills to be ridiculously overpowered like some of you suggest (1 mil damage...) these better have a toggle option to turn off the ridiculous damage. If they don't add a toggle option, they're giving me one less skill to use on my builds since there's no way I'll be taking such a BS skill.

I'm not saying that I'll never use these overpowered skills. Sometimes, they're good for some light fun. Or if I'm taking another character through the game, it'd be nice to just rush a character to where I need (or just give me a cheat so that all outposts unlock for my other characters if visited by a previous character). However, I don't want these to be permanent because that would give me one less skill to use.

One skill may not sound too bad, but if it's one of my favorite skills... Q_Q

An example would be [skill]Hundred Blades[/skill]. I love this skill. If they ruin this skill then... Q_Q This skill is the heart and soul of my GW existence... Q_Q

Hagen Nordheim

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

--

N/A

23 May 2008 at 02:41 - 88

I hope they restore 'Escape' for pve, 5 seconds with 9 expertise is way too little. I loved the skill before.

wu is me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

23 May 2008 at 03:36 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Who made that great quote around here about "marrying and divorcing" their computer games?

-raises itty bity hand-

It was actually jeff strain in his speech i believe =P.

On topic, this is the first update ever that I truly dislike, cos now it REALLy seems like anet is buffing skills in PvE just to allow ppl to run builds that used to bring em loot. I like to know that the skills just aren't arbitrarily adjusted for the sake of pretty numbers popping up, as opposed to carefully fine tuned according to skillful play between two parties.
Now, to me, a lot of the PvE builds are just gonna seem like handouts on behalf of Anet, as opposed to clever exploits/ well designed and researched works of art.

Again... this update sucks.

SerenitySilverstar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

23 May 2008 at 03:41 - 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Now, to me, a lot of the PvE builds are just gonna seem like handouts on behalf of Anet, as opposed to clever exploits/ well designed and researched works of art.

So were they handouts back in the good old days, when the nostalgically remembered Guilds Wars hadn't been balanced?

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

23 May 2008 at 03:56 - 91

I'm still hoping something happens to the following sooner than later:

[skill]Wandering Eye[/skill] [skill]Flame Djinn's Haste[/skill] [skill]Hex Eater Vortex[/skill] [skill]Magebane Shot[/skill] [skill]Shadow Prison[/skill]

I can't think of any Warrior or Monk skill worth mentioning... I'm sure their are a few I could think of at a later time.

Toutatis

Walking Wiki

Join Date: Nov 2006

Isle of Medication

Visitors from Aranna [VFA]

Me/E

23 May 2008 at 04:02 - 92

I'm a little unsure about this update. To me, it just seems a little late in the game's lifetime to introduce a PvE/PvP balance split. All this has done is create double the work for the devs as now they have two game modes to balance, and with ANet puring more resources into GW2 I can see aspects of GW1 going right down the pan.

Though I'm always wary of big changes like this. Maybe it won't be such a bad thing after all - we'll see how it pans out in a few updates from now.

bj91x

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

23 May 2008 at 04:13 - 93

Anet really needs to add a toggle option to switch between PVE and PVP skill descriptions. Our guild hall is where I come up with most of my build ideas and if you're at the guild hall... all skills revert to PVP. Not only that... the Priest only shows you PVP skill descriptions.

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

23 May 2008 at 04:16 - 94

Another fail update.

Assassins are still running around doing 200 damage scythe hits, rangers are still untouchable.

MisterB

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

[ban]

W/

23 May 2008 at 04:17 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj91x

Anet really needs to add a toggle option to switch between PVE and PVP skill descriptions. Our guild hall is where I come up with most of my build ideas and if you're at the guild hall... all skills revert to PVP. Not only that... the Priest only shows you PVP skills.

Agreed.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10145278
Conversely, only PvE versions will be displayed in Great Temple of Balthazar, and only PvE versions will be used in Isle of Nameless. Regina has said they are working on a solution for Isle of Nameless.

yum

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2007

W/E

23 May 2008 at 04:36 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

rangers are still untouchable.

Liessssssssss.

Targuil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

Tampere, Finland

Keep Dreaming [Yawn]

E/

23 May 2008 at 04:53 - 97

Buff my mending in PvE now PloX. I want to be able to beat frost gate.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

23 May 2008 at 05:17 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagen Nordheim

I hope they restore 'Escape' for pve, 5 seconds with 9 expertise is way too little. I loved the skill before.

Players like this are part of the problem. Escape is several orders of magnitude better than it was at a 30 second recharge, as are the tactics stances, yet people complain anyway. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill balanced, players like the one quoted will complain when anything changes ingame, for good or bad. Personally, I'm outright confused at the people who want a completely static game that never receives updates, but I'm beginning to see that I"m in the minority. This depresses me.

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

23 May 2008 at 05:19 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Perhaps the most surprising thing is that this thread has only 80 posts so far.

That's because many have already shot their wad in the other thread on this topic.

But give it time. The week is still young.

Striken7

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

The District Nudists

R/

23 May 2008 at 05:28 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supervillain

Also note, they do not HAVE to waste their time changing game mechanics such as seperate skills for different areas. They have your money, so they can do what other game companies (mention no names *cough* EA *endcough*) a run with your money to make another random game.

Now, what if that *other* game company completely changed the mechanics of the game you had already purchased in order to force their customers to beta test their other random game with no possible recourse since, as you said, they already have your money?

Yes, they don't have to waste their time doing crap like this. It is incredibly unfortunate and disloyal that they still do.

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

23 May 2008 at 05:30 - 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Speaking of PvE skills, I have a serious question. Assuming it didnt affect AI enemies (ie: they didn't have the same skills), would anybody mind if orison of healing healed for 3000 and splinter weapon hit for 10 million? That way some players could destroy the game if they wanted, and those who wanted a challenge wouldn't have to use them? That is literally the impression I am getting around here.

Since we know that eating only 500 calories per day will kill you, eating 1000 a day will tend to cause developmental problems, 1500 calories per day will be OK, and 2000 per day is even better (for the normal male) it goes to follow that eating 100,000 calories per day *must* be good for you too!

Reality is line of logic fails there just as much as it does on yours. It is is silly (I'll be polite here) to think that because people would rather have the old Splinter Weapon back that they want a ten million damage skill.

There is too little power and there is too much power. Some will draw the lines in different places, however because someone else draws that line elsewhere doesn't mean you should loose all your ability to think. In fact, for anyone that is intelligent enough to run a game that is still popular three years later (read - Anet) you are mostly having them completely dismiss you as a hack with a complete inability to think things through. Hyperbole (especially when presented as your real argument) never helps you - at the least I *hope* it was only hyperbole and you realize that what you are saying isn't that bright.

MisterB

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

[ban]

W/

23 May 2008 at 05:45 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Reality is line of logic fails there just as much as it does on yours. It is is silly (I'll be polite here) to think that because people would rather have the old Splinter Weapon back that they want a ten million damage skill.

Let's have some fun here. Put 34 enemies in one spot, and then [[Splinter [email protected]] + [[Barrage] = 9,010 damage from Splinter Weapon alone. Isn't doing over 9,000 damage in one attack a level of power that is clearly broken? Pun intended.

But doing over 9,000 damage in one shot is exactly what some players want. They want their old power level back. OK, I'll stop now.

wu is me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

23 May 2008 at 06:13 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

So were they handouts back in the good old days, when the nostalgically remembered Guilds Wars hadn't been balanced?

What the lord giveth, the lord also can taketh :P, but he really shouldn't try to do both at the same time, cos although he is lord, he only made humans with so much capacity to comprehend one skill set adequately, and if he tried he would piss em off

on a less cryptic note, its all a matter of perception, and so long as they divorce PvE from whats considered widely to be "Balanced" PvP, I'm always gonna perceive whatever build that eventuates from PvE as a handout.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

23 May 2008 at 06:16 - 104

Well this made Anet rise a few points in my consideration.

They just dont need to screw it. The game still has to be challenging and diverse for PvE.

Also people need to understand that PvP and PvE are different. Sure PvP requires alot more skill, but monsters in PvE hit for alot more than human players do in PvP. It was funny when you saw the likes of [Vengeful Was Khanhei] and people suggesting [dolyak signet] in GvG cause the rangers npcs had 100+ damage power shots. Monsters in PvE deal alot more.

So Ursan still is to powerful for PvE. Nerf it a bit. Then use it as a meter stick for what is acceptable.

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

23 May 2008 at 06:24 - 105

It's not like PvE matters anyways. If you can't beat a static opponent, that's your lack of intelligence. Give 'em their 9k Splinter. People who want it will use it. There's already an end all (See: Ursan), so may as well break all the other PvE skills while were at it.

Wtb: Uncapped Minions in PvE. At least this way I can sit my ass away from the pvp bullshit that is Sway right now, ya'know, until someone at anet decides to get off thier ass and actually nerf something detrimental within a week or two of it wrecking everything. Weren't these skill changes already decided on a month ago? Where the hell is the balance for what is currently running amok?

Also, who cares if people who post on forums arn't the majority, they are the dedicated. The rest will find another game in 2 months and completely forget about guildwars. Way to cater to the stupid, temporary masses. It's thier fault they are choosing to remain uneducated about their games. If you can't get motivated enough to gain knowledge for a game, I'd hate to see your IQ readout for the more complex things in life.

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

23 May 2008 at 06:51 - 106

Quote:

Nerf it a bit. Then use it as a meter stick for what is acceptable.

Too bad I'm an idiot and I still hope that A.Net will nerf it equally to the time it took to nerf it. Like with Spirit Bond - it was in use some time, then they WTFPWND it till people started using SoA with it (which was nerfed, too), then it was fixed a bit few days ago.

Oh well, guess I'm off to perma shadow with my Mesmer.

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

23 May 2008 at 06:52 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Discord: (5 energy, 1 cast, 2 recharge) (Elite)
If target foe is suffering from a condition and under the effect of a hex or an enchantment, that foe suffers 30...94 damage.

Necrosis: (5 energy, 1 cast, 2 recharge) (PvE-only)
If target foe is suffering from a condition or hex, that foe suffers 40...90 damage.

Ooooooh! Choices!

I'll help you.

starts with "Her", finishes with "oes"
Repeat after me, "No PvE skill on Heroes"

ManMadeGod

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

23 May 2008 at 07:13 - 108

Generally speaking,
I just feel it became worse.
Disappointed.

ManMadeGod

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

23 May 2008 at 07:21 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Discord: (5 energy, 1 cast, 2 recharge) (Elite)
If target foe is suffering from a condition and under the effect of a hex or an enchantment, that foe suffers 30...94 damage.

Necrosis: (5 energy, 1 cast, 2 recharge) (PvE-only)
If target foe is suffering from a condition or hex, that foe suffers 40...90 damage.

Ooooooh! Choices!

Discord deals 30...94...115 damage actually.
Good for hero MM in PvE.

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

23 May 2008 at 07:51 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Let's have some fun here. Put 34 enemies in one spot, and then [[Splinter [email protected]] + [[Barrage] = 9,010 damage from Splinter Weapon alone. Isn't doing over 9,000 damage in one attack a level of power that is clearly broken? Pun intended.

But doing over 9,000 damage in one shot is exactly what some players want. They want their old power level back. OK, I'll stop now.

Best you do - I asked if one wants to just be exaggerating for the sake of argument or if they want to be stupid. If you want to be stupid then have at it - I can happily put you in that category and ignore anything you say (along with Anet most likely doing that). You know that you are being that way, you also know how you perceive other people who do that. Do you *really* want to be seen that way?

How about you argue something reasonable? It would help the conversation end up someplace useful instead of each side squaring off and going into areas that are totally unrealistic.

However, since I tend towards the side against your feel free to be stupid all you want - there is nothing that I can do that supports my arguments as strong as the other side being nearly 100% that way. Were I to be fully focused on winning I would like it, however I'm more interested in an involved and thriving community but I realize that isn't very likely - too many like being stupid when given the choice and will continue on and on.

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

23 May 2008 at 07:55 - 111

^people cried when splinter got nerfed because they couldn't farm margonites and do 3000damage per shot, I think that says long enough

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

23 May 2008 at 07:56 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Let's have some fun here. Put 34 enemies in one spot, and then [[Splinter [email protected]] + [[Barrage] = 9,010 damage from Splinter Weapon alone. Isn't doing over 9,000 damage in one attack a level of power that is clearly broken?

Hitting a huge mob with any AoE is a guaranteed way to get some crazy numbers. It doesn't - by itself - mean that the skill is broken.

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

23 May 2008 at 08:01 - 113

Come on, what a cop out...

What's stopping them from splitting ALL skills?

Maybe it's time they got some fresh blood for balancing their skills.

Heck, if there's no time, then at least let PvE skill balancing become a democratic issue, where players can vote how they'd like to see a skill changed.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

23 May 2008 at 08:03 - 114

Past the rather revert-lite nature of this update, I'm overwhelmingly dissapointed with the Guru community's response. For almost a year now, I've read the weekly grief issued forth from hundreds of players dissatisfied with PvP nerfs affecting their gameplay, saying it made the game more difficult, farming less lucratice, et cetera et cetera.

Now ANet actually caters to this, and these hundreds of players are nowhere to be seen. Where, after dozens (including myself) started flame wars over PvP/PvE debates, are these players who so ardently cried for this separation.

I'm sure the average player loves this update. I hate it personally - but then again, I always believed that PvP should come before PvE. The level of hypocrisy in this thread is astounding from certain players. Posters like Zinger and Arkantos do not surprise me; I expected their respective reactions as such and respect that.

But many of you have reneged on your earlier views and are following a crowd.

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

23 May 2008 at 08:08 - 115

Lets put 34 enemies in one spot and use E. Surge. Oh look at that, over 3,000 damage with one hit. Wow, but oh darn, it was only once to all 34.

What a silly argument.

While I'm on the subject, how about giving PVE people the choice between using the PVE or PVP version of the skill. That way people who dont want to use the buffed versions dont have to.

ProgTes

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

Under that rock.

We Demand A Shrubbery [Ni]

W/E

23 May 2008 at 08:11 - 116

I love this.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

23 May 2008 at 08:39 - 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Past the rather revert-lite nature of this update, I'm overwhelmingly dissapointed with the Guru community's response. For almost a year now, I've read the weekly grief issued forth from hundreds of players dissatisfied with PvP nerfs affecting their gameplay, saying it made the game more difficult, farming less lucratice, et cetera et cetera.

Now ANet actually caters to this, and these hundreds of players are nowhere to be seen. Where, after dozens (including myself) started flame wars over PvP/PvE debates, are these players who so ardently cried for this separation.

I'm sure the average player loves this update. I hate it personally - but then again, I always believed that PvP should come before PvE. The level of hypocrisy in this thread is astounding from certain players. Posters like Zinger and Arkantos do not surprise me; I expected their respective reactions as such and respect that.

But many of you have reneged on your earlier views and are following a crowd.

Its GURU what do you really expect. However this update is something that either should have happened when Anet made the ability to make PvP only chars or they should have never allowed PvP char only to be done in the first place. Regardless if some think it was and still is a good idea.

Now on the balancing of skills strictly due to PvP consideration only was stupid idea to begin with. Since that was your primary way of playing ofcourse you were happy, but I hate to break the news to you SB, but guess where there majority of money was coming from. Making it a bad business decision to do so.

I see this update as sort of an appesement really myself and a way of hiding past bad decisions made by Anet in the hopes of establishing a carry over population for GW2. Instead of actually correcting the mistakes made they are covering them up with the reverting of some skills.

But after all SB you should be really happy now. Anet really now no longer even have to have a slight glance towards PvE to balance for PvP and they can go a wildly stupid as they want with there skills in PvP.

Im still waiting to see the rest that is yet to come before any other judgements.

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

23 May 2008 at 09:04 - 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Players like this are part of the problem. Escape is several orders of magnitude better than it was at a 30 second recharge, as are the tactics stances, yet people complain anyway. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill balanced, players like the one quoted will complain when anything changes ingame, for good or bad.

People are stupid.
Big numbers = better skill M I RITE?

Quote:

Personally, I'm outright confused at the people who want a completely static game that never receives updates, but I'm beginning to see that I"m in the minority. This depresses me.

I'm feeling the same... As a primarily PvE player, I actually liked skill balances - they shook up an otherwise static game, gave me freedom to explore and create new builds. I can hope that they'll continue to nerf skills (and buff skills in interesting ways... foul feast anyone?) in PvE in spite of the split, but ANet is seeming to want to cater to the idiot majority of PvEers who want to blow shit up with 1000 damage spells to get ph4t lewts with no effort.

No fun buffs, no earth-shaking nerfs, just big numbers in a static environment.
Because the old escape was better

because big numbers r gud
meh

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

23 May 2008 at 09:17 - 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

I'm feeling the same... As a primarily PvE player, I actually liked skill balances - they shook up an otherwise static game, gave me freedom to explore and create new builds. I can hope that they'll continue to nerf skills (and buff skills in interesting ways... foul feast anyone?) in PvE in spite of the split, but ANet is seeming to want to cater to the idiot majority of PvEers who want to blow shit up with 1000 damage spells to get ph4t lewts with no effort.

Exactly how I feel about the whole thing. Thank you for putting it so perfectly, Alex.

I always liked the idea of a split, but only because PvP and PvE work so differently on many levels; not because I hated nerfs/changes. Same reason I was initially enjoying the idea of PvE-only skills, only to find out they were just going to be super-powered, dumbed-down, and totally uncreative skills. Now we're going to be left with more skills like that, and what's worse, these skills will likely never change because "PvEers hate change! Waaaah!"

At least give us an option to play PvE with either PvE or PvP descriptions. Not that it matters much...

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

23 May 2008 at 09:21 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Where, after dozens (including myself) started flame wars over PvP/PvE debates, are these players who so ardently cried for this separation[?]

They are in-game, having a great time.

Like any heterogeneous community, Guru does not speak with one voice. For any proposition A, it is perfectly consistent for both A and ~A to encounter opposition on this site, if the opposition comes from disjoint subsets of posters.