Well the difference between SH and Barbs is Barbs can have it's damage potential multiplied by the amount of physical damage populated on the target, whereas SH is limited in the option of strength.
And Darkspirit, where is the proof this is killing faster than Sabway...?
The Balanced Hero Team HM (better than sabways imo)
Tyla
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Well the difference between SH and Barbs is Barbs can have it's damage potential multiplied by the amount of physical damage populated on the target, whereas SH is limited in the option of strength.
And Darkspirit, where is the proof this is killing faster than Sabway...? The proof is in my game, for those who actually tried it. Also Barbs can be removed and Dalada Uplands creatures have smite hex.
And Darkspirit, where is the proof this is killing faster than Sabway...? The proof is in my game, for those who actually tried it. Also Barbs can be removed and Dalada Uplands creatures have smite hex.
Tyla
5 second recharge.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
5 second recharge.
If the hero is not busy casting SS or something else.
To test it is simple, just replace the the SS hero in sabway with:
[SH hero;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE1FIDcBGL5C]
To test it is simple, just replace the the SS hero in sabway with:
[SH hero;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE1FIDcBGL5C]
Tyla
Yet you lose the best damage mitigation in the game in terms of PvE and cause scatter reducing the effectiveness of that build.
Oh yeah, Rodgort's Invocation > Fireball.
Oh yeah, Rodgort's Invocation > Fireball.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Yet you lose the best damage mitigation in the game in terms of PvE and cause scatter reducing the effectiveness of that build.
Oh yeah, Rodgort's Invocation > Fireball. Sure, if your energy keeps up, switch Fireball for RI for even more awesomeness
. Just take a weakness skill on your own character, or go Ursan, should be simple enough.
Oh yeah, Rodgort's Invocation > Fireball. Sure, if your energy keeps up, switch Fireball for RI for even more awesomeness
. Just take a weakness skill on your own character, or go Ursan, should be simple enough.
Cathode_Reborn
I honestly don't see why it'd be surprising that a fire ele could kill faster than a curses nec in some areas. It's not like once you put Barbs on a target, all the minions instantly jump on that target. It does have potential, but you can't always expect a hero to meet that potential.
I can easily see a fire ele outdoing a curse nec in Dalada Uplands - the charr often bunch up really tight, and last time I checked their caster armor was pretty low. Still though, ele's arn't always the best choice.....and neither are curse heroes
The part where people fail is when they think that you must put one of those on every team build. Ele damage is often reduced by armor, and the damage from the nec is sometimes too conditional. I'd probably take an Rt/N with Enfeebling Blood just for a 14spec Splinter Weapon.
I can easily see a fire ele outdoing a curse nec in Dalada Uplands - the charr often bunch up really tight, and last time I checked their caster armor was pretty low. Still though, ele's arn't always the best choice.....and neither are curse heroes
The part where people fail is when they think that you must put one of those on every team build. Ele damage is often reduced by armor, and the damage from the nec is sometimes too conditional. I'd probably take an Rt/N with Enfeebling Blood just for a 14spec Splinter Weapon.
Tyla
I recently vanquished Dalada, and they basically spike themselves down when you put punishing hexes like Insideous and SS on them.
Even moreso when you use PI.
However, with their huge armour I prefer to hit them with Splinter aswell as let themselves commit suicide. Spirit Bond / SoA = awesomesauce.
Even moreso when you use PI.
However, with their huge armour I prefer to hit them with Splinter aswell as let themselves commit suicide. Spirit Bond / SoA = awesomesauce.
DarkSpirit
Cathode is right, the charrs tend to bunch themselves tight, especially the caster group that is just outside Doomlore shrine in Dalada. Makes them perfect target for SH.
And is it really so hard to believe that such an Ele hero (further taking Tyla's suggestion on RI):
[SH Ele;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE7FIDcBGL5C]
...can kill faster than the SS curse necro?
I know it doesn't have that elegant synergy concept and Ele doesn't have soul reaping, but heck it kills mobs a lot faster.
And is it really so hard to believe that such an Ele hero (further taking Tyla's suggestion on RI):
[SH Ele;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE7FIDcBGL5C]
...can kill faster than the SS curse necro?
I know it doesn't have that elegant synergy concept and Ele doesn't have soul reaping, but heck it kills mobs a lot faster.
Shaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Then it goes back to my same question, why is this killing faster than sabway?
Oh ok, I was just stating that Physical heavy team is better than Caster heavy team in term of damage. I don't care if SH eles kill faster than Sab's build, many build can kill faster than Sab's build. Sab's build is just a good all-around build for most places. Sab's build has some buffs for physical but it isn't a physical heavy build anyway.
And yea, I don't think you should put Barbs on your build just for the minions... If you don't have at least 2-3 melee/paragon, it's not worth it to bring it.
And yea, I don't think you should put Barbs on your build just for the minions... If you don't have at least 2-3 melee/paragon, it's not worth it to bring it.
Tyla
I would rather have mediocre offense, extreme defense and really strong utility all in one build, that doesn't cause scatter that kills the highest point of damage, thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
Quote:
BRB SKILLS RECHARGING LOLOLOLOLOL
Maybe the kill speed is faster, but it can be increased by the amount of melee pounding on it in order to beat the speed of killing. Sure, the chances of minions coming onto the enemy might be slim, but once they do? What about if it's a single enemy which is extremely difficult to kill left? GG.
And with more physicals, it improves in power.
And with more physicals, it improves in power.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaz
And yea, I don't think you should put Barbs on your build just for the minions... If you don't have at least 2-3 melee/paragon, it's not worth it to bring it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tyla
Maybe the kill speed is faster, but it can be increased by the amount of melee pounding on it in order to beat the speed of killing. Sure, the chances of minions coming onto the enemy might be slim, but once they do? What about if it's a single enemy which is extremely difficult to kill left? GG.
Melee heroes have their pathing problems which I am sure you are well aware of. Seeing them run around doing nothing as the Charr Flameshielders cast AoE on them, just makes me sad.
 Single enemy is not difficult to kill, even with this build, combining with minions to wall them in. I have seen melee monsters fleeing from Searing Heat, then die at a distance as burning took over to finish them off. In any case, the rule of thumb is, not to chase a fleeing monster unless it is the last monster left. Tyla
I was mainly talking about human melee. Yeah, this is the H/H forum, but this topic isn't necesarily about it being hero melee.
Don't forget you can always use Paragons too.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I was mainly talking about human melee. Yeah, this is the H/H forum, but this topic isn't necesarily about it being hero melee.
Don't forget you can always use Paragons too. Well yes, I would agree with you on human melees. I have been talking under the context of H/H teams and sabway. Paragon henchies are fine if the campaign provides them (i.e. NF only). Paragon heroes would work too but we only have 3 hero slots to plan for. To be effective, people normally bring at least one more support hero to accompany the physical attackers (e.g. orders derv, splinter, barbs, etc.). Rac's build is just such a build. I just wanted to point out that a 3-hero build with an Ele can also be viable in HM. Tyla
Well Splinter is already the most powerful AoE skill in the game. I'll stick with wanding using that, kthx.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Well Splinter is already the most powerful AoE skill in the game. I'll stick with wanding using that, kthx.
Splinter is indeed nice but it is just 1 skill that can brought by sab's curse necro as much as it can be brought by the Ele.
The other skills in the skill bar makes the difference.
Trvth Jvstice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Well Splinter is already the most powerful AoE skill in the game. I'll stick with wanding using that, kthx.
No, [[Mark of Pain] is the most powerful AoE skill in the game. Though I wouldn't trust a hero to use it properly.
Tyla
lol.
Mark of Pain has a long recharge and ontop of that is removable. If it was spammable, maybe it would be better, but you can consistently keep Splinter Weapon up on an ally and maybe many more if you're using a 40/40 set. Not to mention Splinter Weapon can be used as splash damage via AoE attacks suck as Barrage, Volley, Cyclone Axe, Whirlwind Attack, Crude Swing, Triple Chop and scythes in general. As for the SH, Dark, I'm going to stick by this: Your skills have a heavy recharge time, and your damage mitigation is minimal in that build unlike the SS build. I would only consider a nuker like that in TanknSpank, and in Hard Mode the yellow numbers from elemental damage have decreased easily.
The Meth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
No, [[Mark of Pain] is the most powerful AoE skill in the game. Though I wouldn't trust a hero to use it properly.
In the absolute best circumstances with lots of minions/players hitting a target, yes. Splinter Weapon is far better in most cases though because it is equally powerful in all circumstances. But why stop there? Absolute best is Splinters + MoPs, Splinter aoe damage will trigger mark of pain and the damage is insane.
SH does decent damage. Then you are stuck with a useless character for 20s. Thats a fun situation. Splinter does barely less base damage, is armor ignoring (though I think some people overestimate enemy armor, its not THAT much greater then player armor), also has the player's base damage added in, non elite, 5s recharge. Did I miss anything? Sabway is a slow offensive build, beating it in killing speed doesn't mean much.
Cathode_Reborn
Splinter actually does armor-ignoring physical damage, so it also triggers MoP.
imo, without Assassin's Promise recharging it, MoP sucks pretty bad. It'd have to get a huge buff just to compete with Splinter. Seeing as Splinter has caused probs in PvP for so long, and MoP being in a line that's hex/antimelee-based, I don't think Anet would be excited about buffing it.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
|
|
Originally Posted by The Meth
SH does decent damage. Then you are stuck with a useless character for 20s. Thats a fun situation. Splinter does barely less base damage, is armor ignoring (though I think some people overestimate enemy armor, its not THAT much greater then player armor), also has the player's base damage added in, non elite, 5s recharge. Did I miss anything?
Sabway is a slow offensive build, beating it in killing speed doesn't mean much. SH is not meant to be spammed, otherwise it would be grossly overpowered. But that's ok. It gives the caster a chance to cast the other skills like RI, Searing Heat, and Teinai's Heat in the meantime. Defeating mobs, with the least amount of casualties, in the shortest amount of time is the main goal of PvE.
Trvth Jvstice
I use the N/A Assassin's Promise, MoP, Barbs,etc Curse build on my Nec - and I'm pretty sure that with Olias's minions, Little Thom and [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] pounding the enemies, there couldn't be better AoE, or mob DPS. As I said, I wouldn't use the Curse build on a hero, so it doesn't really apply here, but I couldn't ignore Tyla's comment that Splinter mele is the best source of AoE damage.
ccruzp
-Necro bar is bad, you dont need 1/2 of it to keep him alive and ur wasting better utility skills/secundary, dark bond and mystic regen are by far not needed,if they are actualy seeing use its becouse ur ele is making the monsters scatter form minions and come to your backline.
-Ele bar is bad since ur w8n on recharge and again you dont need 1/4 of a bar and a secundary to stay alive, u should go by w/ a fully useful bar even if u only use the 2 hero henchs, aura of Restoration and Mystic regen are both useless for reasons already posted,only way i can see aoe work in HM would be to use mindfreeze but unless u plan on bringing more then one aoE ele i dont think its very pratical, i know Metero shower is there to hold monsters in place but it fails for that reason for anything other then bosses, second bar is a lil better but still its bad just.. bad, adding key utility skills will totaly outdo 1 less dmg skill. -the monk bar is bad since i all heal and no e-man and ur counting on blood ritual wich could be easily ditched for something useful. imo the standard N/Rt has more then enough Direct heal, conditin removal, party wide heal, and e-management, the only Prot u have can be subed for weap of warding only reason i ever go monk is to make a heal/prot hybrid in wich case its 1-2 heal skill and the rest of the bar prot, not the other way around, ur just giving your hero more bad skills to use instead of that elite on a 3 sec recharge Imo its a bad team build cus its just as effective w/ you using only 1/2 - 3/4 of your bars, thats enough reason to rethink it. Lack of Enfeebling blood/ splinter is also another reason.
DarkSpirit
This is what I have been using:
[build name="SH Ele" prof=E/Rt fir=12+1+1 ene=8+1 res=2 cha=10][Savannah Heat][Searing Heat][Teinai's Heat][Rodgort's Invocation][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Fire Attunement][Splinter Weapon][Death Pact Signet][/build] [build name="Jagged MM" prof=N/Mo blo=3 death=12+3+1 sou=9+1 hea=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition][Death Nova][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet of Lost Souls][/build] [build name="DA Paragon" prof=P/N cur=5 spe=11+1 comma=4 mot=8+1 lea=10+1+1][Aggressive Refrain]["Go for the Eyes!"][Vicious Attack][Enfeebling Blood][Defensive Anthem][Ballad of Restoration]["They're on Fire!"][Signet of Return][/build] ...use the hench healers. EDIT: Updated with runes info. Insignia ====== MM uses MM Insignia on body and legging, BloodStained on the hand, Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Paragon uses Centurion on body and legging. Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Ele uses Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Best Vigor rune that you can afford, for all of them, of course. ryu_okunato
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
This is what I have been using:
[SH Ele;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE7FIDcBGL5C] [Jagged MM;OANEQTxW2JtUNFcUlAuIgGY0UVB] [DA Paragon;OQSlcUlrJdio64utwBZ7wEmD3jl3] ...use the hench healers. wat runes/insignias r u using wit tat?
The Meth
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryu_okunato
wat runes/insignias r u using wit tat?
wut r u tryng 2 say, we spek english here.
The rune setup should be perfectly obvious. Whether you use minor/major/sup is up to your discretion.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryu_okunato
wat runes/insignias r u using wit tat?
Updated my post above with that info.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=225 ryu_okunato
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meth
wut r u tryng 2 say, we spek english here.
The rune setup should be perfectly obvious. Whether you use minor/major/sup is up to your discretion. 1. tats not always true for these cases 2. i don't know about wat the insignias are
Trvth Jvstice
Forum rule #9. Do Not Abuse the English Language
Insignias ryu_okunato
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
ryu_okunato
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
This is what I have been using:
[build name="SH Ele" prof=E/Rt fir=12+1+1 ene=8+1 res=2 cha=10][Savannah Heat][Searing Heat][Teinai's Heat][Rodgort's Invocation][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Fire Attunement][Splinter Weapon][Death Pact Signet][/build] [build name="Jagged MM" prof=N/Mo blo=3 death=12+3+1 sou=9+1 hea=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition][Death Nova][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet of Lost Souls][/build] [build name="DA Paragon" prof=P/N cur=5 spe=11+1 comma=4 mot=8+1 lea=10+1+1][Aggressive Refrain]["Go for the Eyes!"][Vicious Attack][Enfeebling Blood][Defensive Anthem][Ballad of Restoration]["They're on Fire!"][Signet of Return][/build] ...use the hench healers. EDIT: Updated with runes info. Insignia ====== MM uses MM Insignia on body and legging, BloodStained on the hand, Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Paragon uses Centurion on body and legging. Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Ele uses Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Best Vigor rune that you can afford, for all of them, of course. A couple more questions, what other henchman do I bring? What do I put the heroes on?
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryu_okunato
A couple more questions, what other henchman do I bring? What do I put the heroes on?
I usually bring Mhenlo, Lina, Herta, and Zho with this build. 40/40 is good. Paragon uses sundering spear of fortitude (Strength and Honor inscription) and Motivational Shield of Fortitude (Sleep now in the fire inscription).
payne
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
This is what I have been using:
[build name="SH Ele" prof=E/Rt fir=12+1+1 ene=8+1 res=2 cha=10][Savannah Heat][Searing Heat][Teinai's Heat][Rodgort's Invocation][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Fire Attunement][Splinter Weapon][Death Pact Signet][/build] [build name="Jagged MM" prof=N/Mo blo=3 death=12+3+1 sou=9+1 hea=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition][Death Nova][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet of Lost Souls][/build] [build name="DA Paragon" prof=P/N cur=5 spe=11+1 comma=4 mot=8+1 lea=10+1+1][Aggressive Refrain]["Go for the Eyes!"][Vicious Attack][Enfeebling Blood][Defensive Anthem][Ballad of Restoration]["They're on Fire!"][Signet of Return][/build] ...use the hench healers. EDIT: Updated with runes info. Insignia ====== MM uses MM Insignia on body and legging, BloodStained on the hand, Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Paragon uses Centurion on body and legging. Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Ele uses Survivor and Vitae on the rest. Best Vigor rune that you can afford, for all of them, of course. [skill]dwayna's sorrow[/skill] - from what I've seen heroes AI fails with this skill...other than that - if it works for you gg...personally I like ele with more e-management but I kinda like the para bar ;P weakness ftw!
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by payne
[skill]dwayna's sorrow[/skill] - from what I've seen heroes AI fails with this skill...other than that - if it works for you gg...personally I like ele with more e-management but I kinda like the para bar ;P weakness ftw!
It is kind of hard to fail in a cheap, spammable, AoE, enchantment that lasts for 30s per cast.
It is just there to provide some secondary healing and at the very least, is a cheap cover enchant and gets extra heals from EOTN Mhenlo's [[Dwayna's Kiss] and Lina's [[Dismiss Condition] if it is on party members. ryu_okunato
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
I usually bring Mhenlo, Lina, Herta, and Zho with this build. 40/40 is good. Paragon uses sundering spear of fortitude (Strength and Honor inscription) and Motivational Shield of Fortitude (Sleep now in the fire inscription).
For the henchman, which ones do I bring for other campaigns?
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryu_okunato
For the henchman, which ones do I bring for other campaigns?
Haven't tried that new build on the other campaigns yet. But you should be able to tweak it on your own.
luwe80
Quote:
Originally Posted by payne
[skill]dwayna's sorrow[/skill] - from what I've seen heroes AI fails with this skill...other than that - if it works for you gg...personally I like ele with more e-management but I kinda like the para bar ;P weakness ftw!
I agree on the ele bar. I would put in Mind Blast instead of SH. MB will let you spam RI. I'm not saying your build is fail, but it does run out of energy. Other than that little change, gj.
Marverick
I would just put [Glowing Gaze] in there to help deal with RI.
Heroes fail with Mind Blast. They spam it when they're low on energy and get even lower on energy. They also spam it on enemy eles and stuff. ryu_okunato
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marverick
I would just put [Glowing Gaze] in there to help deal with RI.
Heroes fail with Mind Blast. They spam it when they're low on energy and get even lower on energy. They also spam it on enemy eles and stuff. wat would u replace for glowing gaze?
luwe80
You could be right. I'm usually the ele and rarely bring other Ele heroes. If I do we're all running Searing Flames.
What would you change GG for? |
