The Balanced Hero Team HM (better than sabways imo)
Tyla
Dying with Sabway is bad anyway.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Dying with Sabway is bad anyway.
Even so, you can still die with sabway in certain "harder" areas in HM. Especially more so when the MM hasn't got his minions yet.
I find sabway doesn't kill very fast, by the way.
I find sabway doesn't kill very fast, by the way.
ryu_okunato
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Even so, you can still die with sabway in certain "harder" areas in HM. Especially more so when the MM hasn't got his minions yet.
I find sabway doesn't kill very fast, by the way. i agree wit tat, and also wit sabway u have to switch the healer for a quicker one in 4 man areas since he/she is probably going to be the only one and wold need to be able to heal quickly
I find sabway doesn't kill very fast, by the way. i agree wit tat, and also wit sabway u have to switch the healer for a quicker one in 4 man areas since he/she is probably going to be the only one and wold need to be able to heal quickly
Cathode_Reborn
There really doesn't seem to be much synergy in the setup. Necs don't need an MM on the team to be near-infinite energy machines. Stuff already dies fast in PvE. The people that started calling it "Sabway" in the first place have probably never stepped into HA. The N/Rt is years old, and thrives in any place where SR is triggered often. It's a good addition to any team, not just a specific setup. The curses build is just another variant of older builds. imo, The best it does is Enfeebling Blood and Splinter Weapon. SS is often bad in many situations, but there's not any better options for a curses hero in PvE. Jagged Bones was also used in HA before the nerfs. N/Mo Jagged MM's in PvE are also old news, but the majority worshipped bad Flesh Golem builds. I think alota players picked up on the 3nec setup when they finally realized that the typical Fire Ele/Monk/War hero setup often sucks in HM. I use that example because when I used to pug, those heroes are often what people brought.
Tyla
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I usually call it Sabway because the idea of usage came from Sab. I believe so anyway.
Mind you, if it would be a player build, I would go with something else.
I usually call it Sabway because the idea of usage came from Sab. I believe so anyway.
Mind you, if it would be a player build, I would go with something else.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
There really doesn't seem to be much synergy in the setup. Necs don't need an MM on the team to be near-infinite energy machines. Stuff already dies fast in PvE. The people that started calling it "Sabway" in the first place have probably never stepped into HA. The N/Rt is years old, and thrives in any place where SR is triggered often. It's a good addition to any team, not just a specific setup. The curses build is just another variant of older builds. imo, The best it does is Enfeebling Blood and Splinter Weapon. SS is often bad in many situations, but there's not any better options for a curses hero in PvE. Jagged Bones was also used in HA before the nerfs. N/Mo Jagged MM's in PvE are also old news, but the majority worshipped bad Flesh Golem builds. I think alota players picked up on the 3nec setup when they finally realized that the typical Fire Ele/Monk/War hero setup often sucks in HM. I use that example because when I used to pug, those heroes are often what people brought.
Every build has its pros and cons, even sabway. And I call it sabway here even though we already know sab took her ideas from elsewhere, because people here generally know what I am referring to when I mention sabway, which is convenient for the sake of discussing hero builds.
I can call it "you know, the triple necro heroes build that sab posted in this thread <insert url here>" or simply sabway.
I didnt usually bring a monk hero before sabway. My usual hero setup was ToF paragon, SF ele, and Jagged MM (yes, many PUGs insisted that I should bring Flesh Golem for my MM) back in NF, which works well even in current HM.
I can call it "you know, the triple necro heroes build that sab posted in this thread <insert url here>" or simply sabway.
I didnt usually bring a monk hero before sabway. My usual hero setup was ToF paragon, SF ele, and Jagged MM (yes, many PUGs insisted that I should bring Flesh Golem for my MM) back in NF, which works well even in current HM.
NYC Elite
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Originally Posted by ryu_okunato
no synergy doesn't equal bad, synergy just helps a little bit but can sometimes be a problem in certain situations
for example, sabway can do a lot of damage wit the minions and minion buffs, but lets say u're doing thirsty river in hm and u're at the part wit the monk boss and lets all all of ur minions have died, now u r screwed because now u barely have any damage going on and anything u do will be healed by any of the 2 enemy healers, if u had slayers build u might actually stand a chance agianst this certain group, there r a lot a situations like these where synerigzing(thus focusing on one thing only) really screws u up. Or, you could not be baed and let the minions die off fighting a *monk* boss mob. Even better, let's use this wonderful thing called "shutdown." Isn't it cool how the PLAYER can be shutdown skills? Daze, mesmer heroes with interrupts/diversion, etc. You use that example as if it's so common and a major flaw by setting it in an easy mission.
for example, sabway can do a lot of damage wit the minions and minion buffs, but lets say u're doing thirsty river in hm and u're at the part wit the monk boss and lets all all of ur minions have died, now u r screwed because now u barely have any damage going on and anything u do will be healed by any of the 2 enemy healers, if u had slayers build u might actually stand a chance agianst this certain group, there r a lot a situations like these where synerigzing(thus focusing on one thing only) really screws u up. Or, you could not be baed and let the minions die off fighting a *monk* boss mob. Even better, let's use this wonderful thing called "shutdown." Isn't it cool how the PLAYER can be shutdown skills? Daze, mesmer heroes with interrupts/diversion, etc. You use that example as if it's so common and a major flaw by setting it in an easy mission.
DarkSpirit
The advantage of the SH Ele is for spiking important targets. With minions and good positioning, you can trap the target and control-space to kill it very fast with [[Savannah Heat]. This works even against bosses in HM.
You can replace the Ele with a Curse necro and make it into "Yet-another-sabway-variant", but even with barbs, SH tend to kill faster for most targets and it is not a hex that can be removed.
You can replace the Ele with a Curse necro and make it into "Yet-another-sabway-variant", but even with barbs, SH tend to kill faster for most targets and it is not a hex that can be removed.
Tyla
I thought spiking was concentrating alot of damage on one enemy to deal the most possible damage in 1 second...?
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
I thought spiking was concentrating alot of damage on one enemy to deal the most possible damage in 1 second...?
If you control-space, heroes concentrate all damage on one enemy.
ryu_okunato
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Originally Posted by NYC Elite
Or, you could not be baed and let the minions die off fighting a *monk* boss mob. Even better, let's use this wonderful thing called "shutdown." Isn't it cool how the PLAYER can be shutdown skills? Daze, mesmer heroes with interrupts/diversion, etc. You use that example as if it's so common and a major flaw by setting it in an easy mission.
But remember, not everyone's going to be a class where they can interrupt easily or where they can daze, i for example am a warrior and can't daze nor can i have a fast recharging interrupt skill to combat wit oh lets say WoH, even if i changed my secondary to a mesmer or ranger i still wouldn't be able to do **** because of my low energy, see not everyone has the luxury of being able to always interrupt.
Shaz
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
If you control-space, heroes concentrate all damage on one enemy.
That still doesn't make SH a spiking skill though or good for spiking, advantage of SH is for AoE damage not spiking. Spiking is to inflicts massive amounts of damage to a single target in a short period of time, with the goal of taking them down quickly before the healer can react to it and heal it. AoE damage is different from spike damage, whose objective is to deal large amounts of damage to multiple targets over a period of time to drain the monk of energy.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Shaz
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I understand what you are saying, but just because you categorize SH, in your own mind, as a AoE skill and therefore useless in PvE is just biased. A skill that kills so quickly in HM shouldn't be dismissed just because it is classified, in your mind, as "AoE".|
AoE damage is different from spike damage, whose objective is to deal large amounts of damage to multiple targets over a period of time to drain the monk of energy.
There is no rule carved in stone that says you cant use SH on an important target, because it kills too damn fast in HM PvE.
Shaz
You obviously don't understand the differences between the two concepts.
Tyla
Even an AI healer can react to it within 5 seconds, how slow do you think they are exactly?
The heat skills are all pressure skills. You cannot spike with AoE that deals damage over time. In the case of things like Rodgort's Invocation, with a team you can spike down a number of targets with ease, especially with physicals throwing up deep wound at the same time. Spike =/= Pressure.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Shaz
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Originally Posted by Tyla
The heat skills are all pressure skills. You cannot spike with AoE that deals damage over time.
Call it what you will. SH is a pressure skill that can kill HM bosses in a matter of seconds then. RI is also good but RI is energy demanding so you have to build around it.
Tyla
It's not because it's AoE. It's because it's affected by armour.
Shaz
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
I understand what you are saying, but just because you categorize SH, in your own mind, as a AoE skill and useless in PvE is just biased. A skill that kills so quickly in HM shouldn't be dismissed just because it is classified, in your mind, as "AoE".
I rarely use an ele hero but when I do it's either SF or SH, because they arent the best with MB/RI build especially when they locked on to another ele. You could add more e-management but that would defeat the purpose of MB. I did not said that it's useless, I only have a problem with you calling it a spiking skill or use to spike when that's not what it is.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
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http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ignore_armor
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Originally Posted by Shaz
I rarely use an ele hero but when I do it's either SF or SH, because they arent the best with MB/RI build especially when they locked on to another ele. You could add more e-management but that would defeat the purpose of MB. I did not said that it's useless, I only have a problem with you calling it a spiking skill or use to spike when that's not what it is.
I would try a MB/RI build on a hero then. Thanks for the tip.
I am not saying it is a spiking skills, but simply using it as an initial spike through control-space. Tyla
Attack skills' +damage isn't.
SH is an alright elite skill, but SF and SH belong on heroes because a player should be able to run an MB bar decently.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Attack skills' +damage isn't.
SH is an alright elite skill, but SF and SH belong on heroes because a player should be able to run an MB bar decently. We are talking about hero builds here. We all already know that players can use many skills effectively that heroes cant. SH kills alot faster in HM than a Splinter Paragon. You should try it out. Tyla
You're comparing an elite to a non elite.
And I thought it was established that Splinter Weapon deals the most AoE damage in the game. Either way, why would you put Splinter Weapon on a Paragon bar? Oya, Splinter Weapon also has a lower recharge aswell. GG.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
You're comparing an elite to a non elite.
And I thought it was established that Splinter Weapon deals the most AoE damage in the game. Either way, why would you put Splinter Weapon on a Paragon? Use Cruel Spear if you prefer. You keep telling me that the fire ele is bad because the skills are affected by armor but you still cant explain why it kills faster than sabway. You can theorize all you want but it is the in-game results that ultimately matters don't you think? Tyla
Who said anything about Sabway?
Elemental damage sucks in HM because of the stupid high armour. Sabway has alot of armour-ignoring damage. SS, Barbs, Mark of Pain, Splinter, WoR and Death Nova by the way. How the hell can it kill faster than Sabway?
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Who said anything about Sabway?
Elemental damage sucks in HM because of the stupid high armour. Sabway has alot of armour-ignoring damage. SS, Barbs, Mark of Pain, Splinter, WoR and Death Nova by the way. How the hell can it kill faster than Sabway? Which is why you should try it and give a fair judgement. I can understand that against fire resistant creatures the results can be worse. But generally, it tends to kill faster. Sabway has a healer, MM, and curse necros, all this does is replacing the curse necro with a SH ele. It is not too different, but generally, it kills faster. Tyla
What fair judgement is that then?
Armour-ignoring damage > damage affected by armour, hands down.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
What fair judgement is that then?
Armour-ignoring damage > damage affected by armour, hands down. If the damage after armor is still much greater over time than the armor ignoring damage over the same amount of time, then the non armor ignoring damage is better. 
Tyla
Yes, I know, because getting 9-10 minion hitting a target with Barbs (140 damage every 2 seconds minus the minion damage), and if blocking triggering Defile Defenses (1000 damage every 2 seconds providing every attack is blocked), how would that deal less damage than armour-affecting damage?
As for Splinter Weapon, you can consistently keep it up on anyone. You get 47 damage (Providing it came off a Rit with 14 in Channeling), 5 times on 3 enemies ontop of deep wound on the first target if you are deep wounding that target. Not to mention it can be reapplies easily. 250'ish damage every 5 seconds on an AoE radius.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Yes, I know, because getting 9-10 minion hitting a target with Barbs (140 damage every 2 seconds minus the minion damage), and if blocking triggering Defile Defenses (1000 damage every 2 seconds providing every attack is blocked), how would that deal less damage than armour-affecting damage?
As for Splinter Weapon, you can consistently keep it up on anyone. You get 47 damage (Providing it came off a Rit with 14 in Channeling), 5 times on 3 enemies ontop of deep wound on the first target if you are deep wounding that target. Not to mention it can be reapplies easily. 250'ish damage every 5 seconds on an AoE radius. Heroes dont make the most efficient damage dealers. And it is the final damage numbers that matters more, not whether it is armor ignoring or not. Tyla
Did you ignore 99% of that post or what? If you can come up with SH beating 140 damage every 2 seconds tell me now. Same goes for Death Nova. When a minion explodes you get AoE poison and ~100 damage.
Just because heroes don't make the most efficient damage dealers is not the point. The point is that damage that doesn't ignore armour is weaker in general compared to damage that does have armour going against it.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Did you ignore 99% of that post or what? If you can come up with SH beating 140 damage every 2 seconds tell me now. Same goes for Death Nova. When a minion explodes you get AoE poison and ~100 damage.
Just because heroes don't make the most efficient damage dealers is not the point. The point is that damage that doesn't ignore armour is weaker in general compared to damage that does have armour going against it. Sure, and you can nicely assumed all the 10 minions lining up perfectly surrounding that 1 target and all 100% of their attacks are blocked and they all die to give a fantastic death nova that all hits every single creature. Theorize all you want with your perfect assumptions and forget about real situations. And by the way, his build also has death nova and minions in case you forgot.
legacyofkain85
armor ignoring damage for hm,non armor ignoring damage for nm ,i belive its quite easy to understand,btw fire ele with sh+hm=mobs scattering u would be lucky if they would be caught in the second wave of sh
Tyla
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
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There are times when that happens, and you still get decent damage off Barbs with only like 2 minions. Barbs punishes them for getting hit, DEfile Defenses punishes them for blocking. It's a win / win situation either way.
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And by the way, his build also has death nova and minions in case you forgot.
Your point? Doesn't stop it being armour-ignoring damage that punishes the enemy for killing a minion now, does it?
Abedeus
DarkSpirit, sorry, but Tyla the nub is right. Armor-ignoring damage in HM IS MUCH BETTER. Same goes for life stealing and degeneration (although the last one is kind of a waste in pve).
In NM, go ahead, use nukers. But in HM Spiteful Spirit + Arcane Echo > any other combo of elite + non elite. Hell, SS alone is better than Searing Heat - higher damage output, can be maintained on 1 target, 2 with a bit of luck, gains from faster cast time and attacks of the monsters... Oh, and Splinter HAS higher DPS. Check out Barrage + Splinter for some crazy numbers. Or Whirling Attack/cyclone attack/hundred blades (lol ;d)/crude swing. BTW: Tyla, Defile Defenses works only after 1st block, same in pve and pvp. Before skill was introduced in betas of EotN, people saw this was overpowered - getting killed in 7 seconds thanks to this hex is kinda lame. Especially if someone had Aegis + Guardian on himself.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Tyla
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Too bad that savannah heat has almost same damage as spiteful spirit, but armor cuts it by to like 20%-25% of total amount, while SS stays the same.|
Originally Posted by Abedeus
BTW: Tyla, Defile Defenses works only after 1st block, same in pve and pvp. Before skill was introduced in betas of EotN, people saw this was overpowered - getting killed in 7 seconds thanks to this hex is kinda lame. Especially if someone had Aegis + Guardian on himself.
He is assuming 100% block and the hex being up at all times.
Shaz
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Final damage after damage calculations is what is more important here. For the sake of exaggeration if you still dont get my point about final damage, is 1 armor ignoring damage still better than 100000000 non-armor ignoring damage after taking say, 50% off from armor? Do the math.
I get what you're saying, but your argument never make much sense to me DarkSpirit.
Caster damage just isn't comparable to the consistent and hard hitting of physical damage. Especially when you can buff it up even more with Orders, SoH, Barbs, Anthem of Envy, etc. That's why it's also far more easier to shut down a physical than a caster. As long as you keep them clean, a physical heavy team can kill much faster and provide more pressure than a casters team. Tyla
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Barbs and Defile Defense are good skills but you should take the final damage over say, 5s. Minions dont hit fast and they die quite easily. We can theorize with your best made assumptions and I can theorize the other way till the sun goes down. It will not make a difference to reality.
Yeah, let's see now...
A target with 100 AL. SH (At 15): 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 = 150 damage. Barbs (At 15, with 1 minion): 0, 14, 0, 14, 0 = 28 damage. Barbs (At 15, with 5 minions): 0, 75, 0 75, 0 = 150 damage. On top of that, I don't have to wait for the skill to recharge, and enemies don't scatter with it. Good day.
Abedeus
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Final damage after damage calculations is what is more important here. For the sake of exaggeration if you still dont get my point about final damage, is 1 armor ignoring damage still better than 100000000 non-armor ignoring damage after taking say, 50% off from armor? Do the math.
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Even Rodgort's Invocation, one of the strongest aoe spells is inferior to defile/desecrate enchantments. And both have almost same energy/recharge ratio and same cast time.
And please, don't say "1 armor ignoring damage or 10000000 non-armor ignoring''. I could as well say ,,100 damage per second or uncapped 1000 pips of degen''. Never going to happen.
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He is assuming 100% block and the hex being up at all times.
Can't be up at all time, 5 sec recharge.
Cathode_Reborn
A Fire ele can easily outdo a curses nec in some situations, but not all. Both have ups and downs.
The damage from SS isn't as good as people think. I was using it for almost 2 years and damn, sometimes it is just horrid. Sure, it whoops melee mobs easily, but Enfeebling Blood makes them much less of a threat anyways, and it's not limited to a nec primary, along with other antimelee. Casters are often the bigger threats, and SS is pretty lame against them. On a hero, it's even worse since they won't always use it on the best targets. It's only used because there's no better options. When were talkin heroes, Barbs + minions looks good on paper, but there's one thing you need to remember: minions attack what they want. You'd have to micro Barbs a tad bit for the hero to get good use from it. If not, you just gotta hope they don't wastefully slap it on some random target. I wish stuff in PvE blocked alot more so I could just toss Defile Defenses everywhere but PvP is where the block-addicts are. It's still a good skill, but stuff doesn't block enough in PvE for it to be a staple. Armor is the only thing stopping fire ele's from being useful in alota PvE. I actually stopped using my ele after I saw that many mobs have unusually high armor. It's actually rare that you come accross a caster with 60al. The strength of a fire ele is being able to spit out unconditional damage. Curse necs have to rely on certain things. I actually wouldn't use either though. I find both fire ele's and curse heroes pretty weak. Enfeebling Blood is great, but it's not limited to a nec primary. Splinter Weapon is also good, but also can be used by an x/Rt. Stuff in PvE has too much armor to make me wanna bring a fire ele. The only time I ever used a curse hero was months ago, doind Boreas Seabed HM, and that was before EotN was out......I wouldn't ever use one now.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Shaz
Caster damage just isn't comparable to the consistent and hard hitting of physical damage. Especially when you can buff it up even more with Orders, SoH, Barbs, Anthem of Envy, etc. That's why it's also far more easier to shut down a physical than a caster. As long as you keep them clean, a physical heavy team can kill much faster and provide more pressure than a casters team.
Then it goes back to my same question, why is this killing faster than sabway?
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