Fire still does good damage, and burning ignores armor [skill]searing flames[/skill]
Fire does shitty damage compared to physical +damage skills. And degen is bad, so very, very bad in pve.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 15:59 - 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
PS: SS sucks, Foul Feast > Blind / Weakness and targetswitching / enchant removal > blocks.
Like I said, you or your team can bring skills to negate physical shutdown like blind, weakness, blocking, or anti-melee hexes. Casters, on the other hand, have fewer shutdowns in PvE.
Use a necro and bring 3 overpowered PvE skills from this set: [[Cry of Pain], [[Necrosis], [[Finish Him!], [[Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support], or [[You Move like a Dwarf!]
Bring aoe hexes like [[Shadow of Fear] and aoe conditions like [[Enfeebling Blood] for physical shutdown and use either [[Discord] or [[Assassin's Promise] as your elite. Spammable armor ignoring damage skills rule in HM.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 16:04 - 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Like I said, you or your team can bring skills to negate physical shutdown like blind, weakness, blocking, or anti-melee hexes. Casters, on the other hand, have fewer shutdowns in PvE.
You mean like you need to do for _EVERY_OTHER_TYPE_ of shutdown in the game?!
Oh, and targetswitching doesn't require a skill to be used, it requires a thing called "Common Sense".
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 16:10 - 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
You mean like you need to do for _EVERY_OTHER_TYPE_ of shutdown in the game?!
Oh, and targetswitching doesn't require a skill to be used, it requires a thing called "Common Sense".
And my point is, you dont even need to target switch when some monster throws up a blocking skill, as a caster.
Are physical characters viable? Of course! Nobody is debating that, but are they the BEST professions for HM in general? Are they better than necros in HM?
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 16:15 - 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
And my point is, you dont even need to target switch when some monster throws up a blocking skill, as a caster.
Are you sure you're not just too lazy to Tab + Space?
Quote:
Are physical characters viable? Of course! Nobody is debating that, but are they the best damage dealing professions for HM in general?
So I suppose you haven't seen the build that my guild uses for FoW?
Armour ignoring +damage for the win. Oh, and last time I checked easily applyable deep wound, endless buffing, almost instantaniously charged SY or Brawling Headbutt, consistent damage that can be buffed to absurd levels wins.
Quote:
Are they better than necros in HM?
Wut? Necros are a shutdown / support class, not a damage class. You're comparing oranges and apples.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 16:18 - 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Are you sure you're not just too lazy to Tab + Space?
Target switching is just a mitigation for a weakness, physical characters have against blocking. Not an advantage, especially when we are comparing what the BEST HM profession is. Hopefully that monster doesn't self heal or regen after you have switched target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Wut? Necros are a shutdown / support class, not a damage class. You're comparing oranges and apples.
I suppose you didn't read the spell description for [[Discord]. Necros can be both.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 16:21 - 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
I suppose you didn't read the spell description for [[Discord]. Necros can be both.
They have a damage skill. What does that have to do with it being a shutdown / support class? I suppose Mesmers are a damage class because Cry of Pain exists too? Oh wait, no.
Oh, and have you tried buffing the shit out of physicals with AoE damage and so on and comparing it then? No comparrison.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 16:29 - 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
They have a damage skill. What does that have to do with it being a shutdown / support class? I suppose Mesmers are a damage class because Cry of Pain exists too? Oh wait, no.
Mesmers CAN also be built as an effective damage class nowadays, if you know how to use them well. Look up the AP Painful Promise mesmer build. Similarly, necros can also be built as an effective damage class if you know how.
Quote:
Oh, and have you tried buffing the shit out of physicals with AoE damage and so on and comparing it then? No comparrison.
Discord is 115 armor ignoring damage every 3s (including casting+recharge). Other than the required condition and hex, you dont really need other damage skills.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 16:34 - 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Mesmers CAN also be built as a damage class nowadays, if you know how to use them well. Look up the AP Painful Promise mesmer build. Similarly, necros can also be built as a damage class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
What does that have to do with it being a shutdown / support class?
I mean primarily.
Quote:
Discord is 115 armor ignoring damage every 3s (including casting+recharge). Other than the required condition and hex, you dont really need other damage skills.
I guess it's roughly 37 DPS then. A Dragon Slash Warrior with an IAS active would out-DPS that by the way. No buffs needed.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 16:47 - 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I mean primarily.
Necros and mesmers are flexible classes that can be used as an effective support or damage characters, so I disagree with your biased stereotyping, with the sole purpose of disregarding them as possible candidates, for this thread.
Quote:
I guess it's roughly 37 DPS then. A Dragon Slash Warrior with an IAS active would out-DPS that by the way. No buffs needed.
There is about a half second pause before your adrenaline recharges.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 16:49 - 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Necros and mesmers are flexible classes and can be used as an effective support or damage characters so I disagree with your stereotyping.
Regardless of there being damage skills or not, it remains a support class. Not once did I say they can't bring damage skills. A few skills don't make it a damage class.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 16:58 - 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Regardless of there being damage skills or not, it remains a support class. Not once did I say they can't bring damage skills. A few skills don't make it a damage class.
What does it matter if you personally brand them as X or Y in this thread? Are you expecting us to disregard them as "the best HM profession", simply because you BRANDED them this way? Are you saying Discord sucks because they are a damage skill for necros?
My necro and mesmers are is still performing very well in HM as a damage character, whether you brand them one way or not. It has no bearing at all, on their performance in HM, damage or otherwise.
Necros and mesmers have alot more damage skills than you give them credit for.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 17:03 - 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
What does matter if you personally brand them as X or Y in this thread? Are you expecting us to drop them simply because you BRANDED them this way?
I didn't "brand" them that way. Anet did.
Quote:
My necro and mesmers are is still performing very well in HM as a damage character, whether you brand them one way or not.
Since when did PvE require much anyway? Oh that's right, never.
In terms of damage, physicals will always be more powerful as damage dealers. Read the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Quote:
Target switching is just a mitigation for a weakness, physical characters have against blocking. Not an advantage, especially when we are comparing what the BEST HM profession is. Hopefully that monster doesn't self heal or regen after you have switched target.
No, it's not being bad. I guess your casters aren't the BEST HM professions either now because things such as Migraine and other anti-caster skills exist? No.
I have common sense. Sorry that you can't press Tab + Space, I guess not all of us can be athletes. Osnap.
Quote:
It has no bearing at all, on their performance in HM, damage or otherwise.
Well I guess that makes your own argument void then? A class designed for damage will obviously output more than a class designed for other reasons.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 17:12 - 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I didn't "brand" them that way. Anet did.
Lol! Nice try to make your biased branding "official". I dont recall ANet mentioning that necros and mesmers can never be among "the best class for HM."
Unfortunately, like you, most people only know how to use them as support classes because they also have great support skills which are also important as a criteria for being "the best class for HM".
Quote:
Since when did PvE require much anyway? Oh that's right, never.
In terms of damage, physicals will always be more powerful as damage dealers. Read the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Damage is not just looking at mere numbers. It is also looking at the amount of shutdowns and situations. Melee has to chase fleeing enemies and can be body blocked, range does not.
Besides, being the best HM profession doesn't mean damage numbers ONLY, but damage and defense and utility.
Quote:
I have common sense. Sorry that you can't press Tab + Space, I guess not all of us can be athletes. Osnap.
You seem to emphasize Tab+Space alot, but you have been failing to prove why target switching necessarily makes physical classes superior to casters? Otherwise please stay in topic.
Zahr Dalsk
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Aug 2007
Canada
27 Jul 2008 at 17:19 - 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Discord is 115 armor ignoring damage every 3s (including casting+recharge). Other than the required condition and hex, you dont really need other damage skills.
Critical Scythe is around 140 multi-target damage every 1s. Also, lol115damage? Superior runes fail, especially in Hard Mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
There is about a half second pause before your adrenaline recharges.
lolwhut
With FGJ up, you can spam Dslash non-stop. I like how you've never actually tried it yourself.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 17:19 - 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Lol! Nice try to make your biased branding "official". I dont recall ANet mentioning that necros and mesmers can never be among "the best class for HM."
I never said niether of them can be. Oh, and Paragon is by far the most powerful PvE class. Oh and sorry but the construction of the classes and their skills tell me why.
Quote:
Unfortunately, most people only know how to use them as support classes because they also have great support skills which are also important as a criteria for being "the best class for HM".
For support to be effective, they need something to support.
A Warrior doesn't need a Necro with Barbs to be effective, but the Necro with Barbs needs the Warrior.
Quote:
Damage is not just looking at mere numbers. It is also looking at the amount of shutdowns and situations. Melee has to chase fleeing enemies, range does not.
When I'm knocklocking them with Brawling Headbutt / Earth Shaker? When I'm playing a Paragon?
Quote:
You seem emphasis Tab+Space alot, but you have yet to prove why target switching necessarily makes physical classes superior to casters?
Because I'm not retarded and don't expect every one of my attacks go through. The same goes for hex spamming and some builds. If you've got Spirit Bond on an enemy, you wouldn't spam Discord on them because that would be plain retarded. Same goes for several other scenarios such as hex spamming. You wouldn't put Faintheartedness on a target which already has it. You would use Tab to get to another one of their physical attackers to apply it to that target.
Quote:
Besides, being the best HM profession doesn't mean damage ONLY, but damage and defense and utility.
[dragon slash][brawling headbutt]["for great justice!"]["save yourselves!"][flail][enduring harmony][enraging charge][steelfang slash]
Pretty sure that has damage, utility and defense.
[earth shaker][crude swing][whirlwind attack][flail][enraging charge][enduring harmony]["for great justice!"][crushing blow]
Oh, that has it too!
You can just about fit Brawling Headbutt and Save Yourselves on any Paragon, Assassin or Dervish bar too.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 17:23 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
A Warrior doesn't need a Necro with Barbs to be effective, but the Necro with Barbs needs the Warrior.
No the necro doesn't need a warrior to be effective. Fiends+MoP+Barbs is more effective than having a warrior around that can be body blocked from reaching the intended MoP target in the center of a pack. Thus, my statement comparing melee against range.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 17:25 - 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
No the necro doesn't need a warrior to be effective. Fiends+MoP+Barbs is more effective than having a warrior around that can be body blocked from reaching the intended MoP target in the center of a pack. Thus, my statement comparing melee against range.
I guess I'll reuse your own argument againt you.
What if the fiends don't all go on the intent target?
What if you decide to go spear Warrior? What if you walk around the bodyblocking enemy because enemies in PvE tend to not bodyblock consistently?
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 17:29 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
I guess I'll reuse your own argument againt you.
What if the fiends don't all go on the intent target?
What if you decide to go spear Warrior? What if you walk around the bodyblocking enemy because enemies in PvE tend to not bodyblock consistently?
If you have played a MM before, fiends can be controlled to target better than melee minions.
Spear Warrior? Lol, my necro also wields a spear to help trigger barbs and MoP so I dont need a spear warrior, thank you.
Feel free to disagree, but I still vote for necros:
1) Ability for damage from spells like Discord, Necrosis, or minion bombing or Barbs/MoP+minions
2) Ability to mitigate damage like Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear/Faintheartedness, and minion meat shields
3) Support abilities e.g. Orders.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 17:31 - 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
If you have played a MM before, fiends can be controlled to target better than melee minions.
You sure you're not talking about when there's one left?
Quote:
Spear Warrior? Lol, my necro also wields a spear to help trigger barbs and MoP so I dont need a spear warrior, thank you.
More damage, IAS, SY...
Turbobusa
Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2006
By the Luxon Scavenger
The Mentalists [THPK]
N/
27 Jul 2008 at 17:31 - 61
Mark of pain + spear = win. I can do that with my necro alone.
Lets see. Toxic chill, minions, discord, desacrate & copy, MoP, Barbs, blood magic (meh), and I'm too lazy to go to wiki to check the full list. No damage at all. None. I guess ANet must send some invisible unblockable physical when I go vanquishing and rape trhough about everything.
Theory is nice. Fact is necro isn't just a support class.
About discord being 37DPS, it is also an unblockable ranged damage spell with a 2s recharge and the condition being that the target is weakened.
I'm sorry but while a warrior can do great it just does not compare in a full team.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 17:36 - 62
Quote:
More damage, IAS, SY...
10 Fiends+Barbs kill them in seconds before your single spear warrior even makes 1 or 2 hits. And besides, warrior+necro is 2-man, while necro+fiends is still a 1-man team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
I'm sorry but while a warrior can do great it just does not compare in a full team.
Correct. Why dont we get a full warrior team and compare its HM performance with a full necro team?
Turbobusa
Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2006
By the Luxon Scavenger
The Mentalists [THPK]
N/
27 Jul 2008 at 17:39 - 63
That wasn't my point, even if there's no necro healer in there and they both(warrior and necro teams) take monks the necros are going to do better because they don't need someone in there back do to damage in all situations
If you are going to reply SY don't bother, a dog can walk in HM with 3 mobs aggroed with this sh*t on.
Warriors are great damage dealers. Necros are also.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 17:41 - 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
That wasn't my point, even if there's no necro healer in there and they both(warrior and necro teams) take monks the necros are going to do better because they don't need someone in there back do to damage in all situations
If you are going to reply SY don't bother, a dog can walk in HM with 3 mobs aggroed with this sh*t on.
Warriors are great damage dealers. Necros are also.
SY is a protection skill, not a damage skill and SY doesn't protect against all forms of damage.
Necros can also be good healers thanks to soul reaping, so a full necro team can still perform better.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 17:48 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Spirit
1) Ability for damage from spells like Discord, or minion bombing or Barbs/MoP+minions
Barbs & MoP also makes physicals hurt more.
Quote:
2) Ability to mitigate damage like Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear/Faintheartedness, and minion meat shields
Enfeebling Blood only needs 5 for a half decent and effective investment.
Quote:
3) Support abilities e.g. Orders.
Supporting physicals...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
Lets see. Toxic chill, minions, discord, desacrate & copy, MoP, Barbs, blood magic (meh), and I'm too lazy to go to wiki to check the full list. No damage at all. None. I guess ANet must send some invisible unblockable physical when I go vanquishing and rape trhough about everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Regardless of there being damage skills or not, it remains a support class. Not once did I say they can't bring damage skills. A few skills don't make it a damage class.
READING COMPREHENSION IS WIN.
Quote:
About discord being 37DPS, it is also an unblockable ranged damage spell with a 2s recharge and the condition being that the target is weakened.
D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.
Quote:
I'm sorry but while a warrior can do great it just does not compare in a full team.
Comparing one Warrior to a full team is bad, especially since Warriors can have endless buffs ranging from Curses support, Orders, Splinter / AR and the list goes on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Spirit
SY is a protection skill, not a damage skill and SY doesn't protect against all forms of damage.
Oh, you mean like how that it's mostly Fire damage that hurts in PvE? Oh, I also guess that Enfeebling Blood sucks because it only protects against melee.
Quote:
Necros can also be good healers thanks to soul reaping, so a full necro team can still perform better.
Just because of the insane energy management?
Quote:
10 Fiends+Barbs kill them in seconds before your single spear warrior even makes 1 or 2 hits. And besides, warrior+necro is 2-man, while necro+fiends is still a 1-man team.
One man? How do you kill primarily? How did you get 10 fiends up for Barbs in a one-man team?
Quote:
Correct. Why dont we get a full warrior team and compare its HM performance with a full necro team?
You're really comparing 2 pips for healing to stupid energy management? You're retarded.
Bobby2
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards
[MaSS]
W/E
27 Jul 2008 at 18:03 - 66
Epic thread derailment.
1. Necro's are meant as a support class - even if it's only their own minions. Don't go DPS racing now, you'll fall.
2. Throwing a monkey wrench in the DS War camp: the OP is going Blossom spam already. Hi Yah!
Turbobusa
Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2006
By the Luxon Scavenger
The Mentalists [THPK]
N/
27 Jul 2008 at 18:26 - 67
First, I wasn't being aggressive so stop answering me like that.
Quote:
READING COMPREHENSION IS WIN.
While warriors can do great damage, they have some support skills in the tactic line. therefore, it is a support class.
While Eles can do great damage, they have some support skills in the water/earth line. Therefore, it is a support class.
Basically that's your reasonning.
May I lol?
I wasn't comparing one warrior to a full necro team, I was comparing a warrior team to a necro team:
Quote:
READING COMPREHENSION IS WIN.
If you want to be an ass, apply your own rules to yourself.
Quote:
D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.
"block"
OWNED
Quote:
D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.
"target killed before you land your hit"
OWNED
Quote:
D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.
"miss" due to hex, blind
OWNED
Because slashing things to death while they can't block or weaken you is very, very hard.
Let me correct myself:
Warriors are great damage dealers when they have someone to get rid of nasty conditions/hexes/enchants/blocks and they have buffs all over the place but become stupid and start being jerks to people because they think their big numbers is only caused by themselves.
^Read that part please. At least 42 times.
OP: Depends what you want to do.
Buff physicals is nice, but very unneeded imo and melee henchies kinda suck bad.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 18:33 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
While warriors can do great damage, they have some support skills in the tactic line. therefore, it is a support class.
Funny, you just used the same logic against yourself. Warriors were ment to dish out big numbers while mildly supporting their party, yet the Tactics skill line is absolute terribad?
Paragons are a support class yet they deal reasonably Warrior-like DPS at range. It makes no difference.
Quote:
While Eles can do great damage, they have some support skills in the water/earth line. Therefore, it is a support class.
Eles are a support class anyway, as are all other midliners.
Quote:
I wasn't comparing one warrior to a full necro team, I was comparing a warrior team to a necro team:
If you want to be an ass, apply your own rules to yourself.
Sorry, but I wasn't comparing it unfairly.
Quote:
"block"
OWNED
Targetswapping. OWNED!
Quote:
"target killed before you land your hit"
OWNED
D-Slash doesn't take long to charge with "FGJ!" anyway. OWNED!
Quote:
"miss" due to hex, blind
OWNED
Hex removal and condition removal. OWNED!
Quote:
Because slashing things to death while they can't block or weaken you is very, very hard.
See above answers.
Quote:
Let me correct myself:
Warriors are great damage dealers when they have someone to get rid of nasty conditions/hexes/enchants/blocks and they have buffs all over the place but become stupid and start being jerks to people because they think their big numbers is only caused by themselves.
By the same reasoning casters are the same because skills like Power Block exist. Oh, and physicals don't require as much external support as Necros to deal consistent damage. And in almost every scenario, you need support from a healer of any kind in the first place.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 18:37 - 69
The best overall DPS I have seen is still MoP+Fiends but that needs to be setup right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Barbs & MoP also makes physicals hurt more.
And minions deal physical damage.
Quote:
Enfeebling Blood only needs 5 for a half decent and effective investment.
And more points means it lasts longer so you dont have to keep casting+sac so often.
Quote:
Supporting physicals...
Which shows the necro's versatility more. You seem to be supporting necros so far.
Quote:
Warriors can have endless buffs ranging from Curses support, Orders, Splinter / AR and the list goes on.
I never knew Curse to be a Warrior skill line. Are you saying that warriors need necros to be effective?
Quote:
One man? How do you kill primarily? How did you get 10 fiends up for Barbs in a one-man team?
Barbs+Fiends does not need that many points into Curse to be effective.
Quote:
You're really comparing 2 pips for healing to stupid energy management? You're retarded.
2 pips of healing? Who is retarded?
You mean 2 pips of energy regen. And thanks for supporting my point.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 18:43 - 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
The best overall DPS I have seen is still MoP+Fiends but that needs to be setup right.
The best DPS I've seen is physical overload.
Quote:
And minions deal physical damage.
I didn't say they didn't.
Quote:
And more points means it lasts longer so you dont have to keep casting+sac so often.
Oh jeez, more sac. As if 10% sac is going to be gamebreaking?
Quote:
Which shows the necro's versatility more. You seem to be supporting necros so far.
I'm supporting them being a support class. And I didn't say Necromancers aren't versatile.
Quote:
I never knew Curse to be a Warrior skill line. Are you saying that warriors need necros to be effective?
I didn't say that. I merely stated they have endless buffs. Big difference.
Quote:
Barbs+Fiends does not need that many points into Curse to be effective.
Getting more Curses for Barbs is good.
Quote:
2 pips of healing? Who is retarded?
You mean 2 pips of energy regen. And thanks for supporting my point.
I didn't say "Two pips of health regeneration", I said "Two pips FOR healing".
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 18:50 - 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
The best DPS I've seen is physical overload.
MoP+Fiends can kill off an entire mob faster with AoE armor ignoring damage.
Quote:
Oh jeez, more sac. As if 10% sac is going to be gamebreaking?
I didn't say it is. And making weaken last longer, casting and sac less, is bad? How?
Quote:
I'm supporting them being a support class. And I didn't say Necromancers aren't versatile.
I'm supporting them being the BEST PvE class because of their overall versatility in both support and damage for HM.
Quote:
I didn't say that. I merely stated they have endless buffs. Big difference.
Which really doesn't say much that warrior class is the best unless the buffs are all coming from their own primary profession skillbar. If they have to depend on the necro skills to help them out, then you are supporting my point on necro versatility.
Quote:
Getting more Curses for Barbs is good.
So is getting more Curse for Enfeebling Blood, what's your point?
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 18:58 - 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
MoP+Fiends can kill off an entire mob faster with AoE armor ignoring damage.
Dervish, Warrior AoE skills, Splinter Weapon. Oh, no AoE there...
Quote:
I didn't say it is. And making weaken last longer, casting and sac less, is bad? How?
It isn't. But you only need minimal attribution for it to prove effective.
Quote:
I'm supporting them being the BEST PvE class because of their overall versatility in both support and damage for HM.
That award goes to Paragons or Warriors. See the previously mentioned builds.
Quote:
Which really doesn't say much that warrior class is the best unless the buffs are all coming from their own primary profession skillbar. If they have to depend on the necro skills to help them out, then you are supporting my point on necro versatility.
/Facepalm.
Endless buffs doesn't mean only Necromancers. It means a wide array of support skills from professions such as Monk, Ritualist, Necromancer, Paragon and others. They do not need these buffs to be effective either.
Quote:
So is getting more Curse for Enfeebling Blood, what's your point?
You don't need more than 5 Curses for an infinitely maintainable source of weakness. You only gain more time in Curses and less needing of a cast for it. With Barbs, you can have a significant investment for a significant effect.
Squishy ftw
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Aug 2007
Your backline
W/
27 Jul 2008 at 19:00 - 73
You 2 should get a room and troll eachother until you both cream your pants already.
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 19:11 - 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
You don't need more than 5 Curses for an infinitely maintainable source of weakness. You only gain more time in Curses and less needing of a cast for it. With Barbs, you can have a significant investment for a significant effect.
Of course more curse would be better, but there is only a 3 damage difference between a level 11 barbs (which you can with 16 to death, and 9 to SR after runes) and a level 14 barbs. 3 damage is hardly significant.
Anyway I have said all I wanted to say on this thread. Warriors maybe good for single target DPS but they rely on other classes to buff them. Unless you H/H (in which case the best builds are still triple necro based), if you PUG, good luck convincing some people to change their build to support you. Necros are more versatile overall (i.e. damage+defense+utility) and can have great DPS even without buffs from other professions.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
27 Jul 2008 at 19:29 - 75
30 extra damage every 2 seconds is still nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Spirit
Anyway I have said all I wanted to say on this thread. Warriors maybe good for single target DPS but they rely on other classes to buff them.
That's because they don't need to rely on them.
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Unless you H/H (in which case the best builds are still triple necro based), if you PUG, good luck convincing some people to change their build to support you. Necros are more versatile overall (i.e. damage+defense+utility) and can have great DPS even without buffs from other professions.
PuGs are bad, and H/H also has Racway, in any case you have the right to structure your own team.
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Necros are more versatile overall (i.e. damage+defense+utility) and can have great DPS even without buffs from other professions.
Warriors also get damage defense and utility, and they don't rely on other professions' buffs to work. If anything, you're so cheap you can't even pay attention. (Godmode D-Slasher has all three of those aspects, and so do many other Warrior builds so I don't know what the *Red Engine* you're talking about here)
Abedeus
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Jan 2007
Niflheim
R/
27 Jul 2008 at 20:09 - 76
I think DarkSpirit is a troll because he thinks elementalist damage > necro damage in HM and Tyla is a troll because.
You want me to join you or what? Facts are simple:
Warrior + necro buffs + rit buffs = OWNAGE DPS AND AOE DPS PWNAGE
Necro = liek the best support character in pve. Although it shouldn't be on DPS. Why? Because wasting slots for pure damage < buffing melee chars to make them pwn everything around. That's why support + offense > offense + offense or support + support.
Teh synergy > the uhm, soloability?
DarkSpirit
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Redmond
27 Jul 2008 at 20:29 - 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
I think DarkSpirit is a troll because he thinks elementalist damage > necro damage in HM and Tyla is a troll because.
Yes everyone is a troll except you and thanks for putting words in my mouth.
MoP+Fiends has better DPS than even Splinter, provided it is done right, which heroes typically fail in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
30 extra damage every 2 seconds is still nice.
That's because they don't need to rely on them. In any case, a 2 necro team is of course stronger than a 1 necro team so I dont know what point you are trying to push across.
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PuGs are bad, and H/H also has Racway, in any case you have the right to structure your own team.
Vanilla racway fails in many areas, the lack of Splinter is bad which is why I dont use the racway D/N anymore.
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Warriors also get damage defense and utility, and they don't rely on other professions' buffs to work. If anything, you're so cheap you can't even pay attention. (Godmode D-Slasher has all three of those aspects, and so do many other Warrior builds so I don't know what the *Red Engine* you're talking about here)
What you dont seem to realize is warriors defenses are not as effective as the necro's, for protecting the team, like Enfeebling Blood and minions. Except for overpowered SY which a Paragon can use to a much better degree than the warrior himself.
I'd go with Paragon, Warrior, or Assassin for PvE but thats just me
also
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Originally Posted by Squishy ftw
You 2 should get a room and troll eachother until you both cream your pants already.
srsly
isamu kurosawa
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
United Kingdom
Me/
27 Jul 2008 at 21:04 - 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
And my point is, you dont even need to target switch when some monster throws up a blocking skill, as a caster.
Are physical characters viable? Of course! Nobody is debating that, but are they the BEST professions for HM in general? Are they better than necros in HM?
I use a discord spike team on my mes whenever i h/h vanquish. It is a great setup but running a physical team is much better if you are using real people.
Not got access to real people? get a better guild.
Casters should play supportive roles, negating damage to your team with things like blind and pumping your martials damage with skills like orders or splinter. Then if there is any room take utility skills like hex/cond removal, great dwarf weapon etc.
Monks of course mitigate and heal damage.
discord is great as a spike team but in areas with high HP foes, mass hex/cond removal, diversion etc the pressure from martials is much better. If a warriors attack skill is diverted he still goes decent damage with auto attack, if a discord gets diverted he's out.
Abedeus
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Jan 2007
Niflheim
R/
27 Jul 2008 at 21:07 - 80
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Yes everyone is a troll except you and thanks for putting words in my mouth.
When did I say I'm not a troll? Sure I am. I know I am. But please, do not lie, you did fight with someone few weeks ago about elementalist damage > splinter weapon or necro curses. I still remember my rofls.
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Vanilla racway fails in many areas, the lack of Splinter is bad which is why I dont use the racway D/N anymore.
Maybe it's just you. That will mean something ;d
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Enfeebling Blood and minions.
Enfeebling Blood - Sure, AoE, but only 66% and only physical. And must hit all monsters to work.
Save Yourselves - The only requirement is that you must be within range to make it work, but you usually are. It's almost 90% reduction to all armor-based damage. And can't be removed by condition removal.
And minions say hi to 300-400 damage in 5 seconds, AoE, in HM.
[skill]searing flames[/skill]
