It's worthless because your point is moot. Once again, another blindingly obvious thing that people should know if they go into Hard Mode!
A hammer warrior? In a thread about the best damage in hard mode? Seriously? Even a Cry of Pain mesmer pushes out more DPS than a buffed out warrior that doesn't have triple chop... or even hundred blades.
[whirlwind attack][crude swing]
Quote:
Right, necros are a support class, like all other midliners.... in PvP. The common consensus on class roles are mainly made from the perspective of PvP. You obviously fail to understand that PvP does not equal PvE.
*Yawn*
Not this shit again. Just because midliners support in PvP doesn't mean they don't apply this role best in PvE also. I guess in PvE all Warriors should be tanks too?
Quote:
Atleast try and argue using dervishes, paragons, rangers, or even monks as an example. Classes that I've never thoroughly played in hard mode. Trying to argue with me using warriors or assassins as an example is hilarious. Its obvious you've never tried an SS/arcane echo necro.
Once again, I have already mentioned this in several of my posts.
As for SS, you do understand slapping Mark of Pain on a target will deal far more DPS depending on how many physical attacks hit it, right? The AP MoP Nuker is far more powerful than an SS for the simple reason it buffs up melee and can deal consistent AoE damage. Supporting your melee goes far beyond it. Splinter Weapon will also make this more powerful as it's physical damage, and on a Dervish you'll only be seeing things blow up. Infact, a Dervish autoattacking with Splinter Weapon at even 10 spec and Chilling Victory would deal more damage, aswell as all the other buffs you can add to it.
28 Jul 2008 at 00:22 - 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
As for SS, you do understand slapping Mark of Pain on a target will deal far more DPS depending on how many physical attacks hit it, right? The AP MoP Nuker is far more powerful than an SS for the simple reason it buffs up melee and can deal consistent AoE damage.
Omg, Tyla's using my point.
In any case, MoP+10 fiends is still faster than MoP+1 warrior. MoP is a necro skill not a warrior skill though. 
28 Jul 2008 at 00:24 - 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Although damage is important, staying alive is also important. What is the point of equipping all damages if you cant keep your team alive?
Yeah I understand that, but the OP was looking for the best damage, and how well a profession can support his team probably wasn't what he was looking for.
If he posted on this thread instead of letting it get derailed he might get a better answer...
28 Jul 2008 at 00:25 - 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Omg, Tyla's using my point.
In any case, MoP+10 fiends is still faster than MoP+1 warrior.
Dervish with Splinter Weapon will trigger it twice if it hits the MoP'd target with both Splinter and the scythe. That makes it ~80 damage added onto AoE. Also attacking at roughly 1.2 seconds with Heart of Fury up.
Warrior using Whirlwind Attack buffed by Splinter Weapon, also attacking every ~1 second will deal the same.
28 Jul 2008 at 00:27 - 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tearz1993
Yeah I understand that, but the OP was looking for the best damage, and how well a profession can support his team probably wasn't what he was looking for.
If he posted on this thread instead of letting it get derailed he might get a better answer...
|
Ok, I made an assumption that the OP is thinking of a build that is effective meaning staying alive while dealing great damage, even though he didnt specifically mention the "staying alive" part. I thought that was implicit.
Really, the more you keep your team alive, the better damage you can get than just from yourself anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Dervish with Splinter Weapon will trigger it twice if it hits the MoP'd target with both Splinter and the scythe. That makes it ~80 damage added onto AoE. Also attacking at roughly 1.2 seconds with Heart of Fury up.
Warrior using Whirlwind Attack buffed by Splinter Weapon, also attacking every ~1 second will deal the same.
Last I remember, Splinter is physical damage, not armor ignoring but of course it helps. And Splinter would trigger MoP but fiends targeting is usually sufficient for me anyway. Having some melee to hold up and bunch up the group from fleeing would also help.
MoP especially works well against Rit or Monk monsters because casters tend to bunch up in PvE and these would heal themselves, keeping themselves alive while monsters around them are dying from MoP triggering off them. When monsters around them have all died from MoP, cast Barbs and finish them off. Heroes dont know how to work this correctly.
Quote:
I've not used it myself, but if you can explain why it fails. I mean, he clearly stated he did most of his vanquishing with it.
A note about Racway. It has problems against the Aegis casting Flameshielder charrs and raptors in HM. Even if you bring anti-block, single target damage is only so effective without Splinter compared to the AoE attacks from Flameshielders, and Faintheartedness + Suffering from charr hexers. You have to attack the Dominators (mesmer charrs) first because they bring Resurrection Chant, but their monks spike heal very well. This is when it can get troublesome for single target damage dealers.
Attack speed debuff hexes like Faintheartedness and Shadow of Fear do affect adrenaline gain for SY too.
28 Jul 2008 at 00:45 - 95
Alundro, are you high? Your ranting on about nonsense :P I mean...Triple chop , Hundred blades or ES Hmm would i rather have Ok'ish AoE damage or an AoE attack that can potentially knock-lock mobs, Hard choice? I think not.
As Tyla said [whirlwind attack] + [crude swing] Is plenty of AoE damage, Add In [splinter weapon]+[mark of pain] and your set to go. Why waste an Elite spot on triple chop or hundred blades when you can have plenty of aoe and [earth shaker]
SS is inferior to buffed up physicals 'Nuff Said.
28 Jul 2008 at 01:49 - 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by alundro
Yes, with splinter, orders, and strength of honor, blossom DPS goes through the roof. No, SS can't match a tricked out blossom spam in hard mode.
...but -2- Spiteful Spirits can match it.
1 Blossom spammer would give SS and its echoed copy a run for their money... before adding buffs.
EDIT: yes, I meant in HM. 
28 Jul 2008 at 02:48 - 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
1 Blossom spammer would give SS and its echoed copy a run for their money... before adding buffs.
EDIT: yes, I meant in HM.
That's what I thought when I was considering which character I would make my main and I ruled the Necro out pretty early.
When running Sabway, for example, setting Livia as the SS/Barbs is effective enough. On the other hand, I can guess an Assassin hero certainly wouldn't be able to spam Moebius/Death Blossom as well as I do, switch targets, use Golden Fox/Wild Strike effectively on stance blockers, etc, and much less survive Hard Mode with 70 Armor, etc. Even if the hero managed all that, he/she wouldn't have access to Critical Agility which I think is key for the spam (33% IAS is huge!).
I noticed Weapon Spells are extremely strong on an Assassins' hands, too. I have Warmongers on Livia and Splinter on Olias. Splinter adds a lot to AoE damage, and Warmongers simply doesn't let a Monk cast any spell at all, whenever I see a boss I micro it, and kill. 
Overall I'm pretty happy with the sin for now, and she outdamages my Ele HEAVILY (besides having the advantage to shutdown while attacking). Fun to play and powerful - played with my friend this weekend and had a few successful HM missions and vanquishes already.
Whenever I get bored I'll try some Warrior/Derv/Para build on the sin. She seems pretty versatile.
28 Jul 2008 at 04:21 - 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windf0rce
When running Sabway, for example, setting Livia as the SS/Barbs is effective enough. On the other hand, I can guess an Assassin hero certainly wouldn't be able to spam Moebius/Death Blossom as well as I do, switch targets, use Golden Fox/Wild Strike effectively on stance blockers, etc, and much less survive Hard Mode with 70 Armor, etc. Even if the hero managed all that, he/she wouldn't have access to Critical Agility which I think is key for the spam (33% IAS is huge!).
That is not a fair comparison. The fact that heroes run necros better than assassins doesn't mean assassins are more useful to the team than necros. If necros are not useful, you wouldn't be running sabway.
28 Jul 2008 at 05:26 - 99
Listen, necro fanboi, OP never stated Necros weren't useful. Argue with the right people pl0x.
Windf0rce, see you on the Sin forum
28 Jul 2008 at 05:36 - 100
[great dwarf weapon] [order of pain] [mark of pain] [barbs] on a melee = win
SS's DPS is bad compared to a buffed physical so the point is don't bring a SS bring assassins promise so that your melee can blow shit up faster. I've seen that MoP nuker build at work and it can take out mobs ridiculously fast if placed on the right targets. Now that being said Dark 10 minions isn't as effective as a warrior simply because the warrior can knocklock or spam SY!. Not only that but there is usually more then one physical on a PvE team (paragon, dervish, sin, other warrior) and they usually have IAS's which means they attack much faster then minions ever could. This makes it smarter to bring physicals.
However if you are out on your lonesome and only have h/h access why not just bring physicals and minions  twice the fun.
and yea see you on the sin forums winf0rce. ....watch out for bobby he bites....
28 Jul 2008 at 05:41 - 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Rk Bl Ad E
Alundro, are you high? Your ranting on about nonsense :P I mean...Triple chop , Hundred blades or ES Hmm would i rather have Ok'ish AoE damage or an AoE attack that can potentially knock-lock mobs, Hard choice? I think not.
As Tyla said [whirlwind attack] + [crude swing] Is plenty of AoE damage, Add In [splinter weapon]+[mark of pain] and your set to go. Why waste an Elite spot on triple chop or hundred blades when you can have plenty of aoe and [earth shaker]
SS is inferior to buffed up physicals 'Nuff Said.
|
We're talking about highest DPS in hard mode and you champion a hammer warrior? And im the one accused of being high. I assumed if you brought ES, youd be weapon switching to a sword or axe to dish out more DPS from the buffs. You dont need many points in hammer for ES, after all. Sticking with a hammer while you're buffed like that is just a waste of time.
Regardless, this is about the highest DPS in hard mode, not average DPS + uber mitigation. If I wanted that id make an imbagon, not an ES warrior.
[Hundred Blades] + [Sun and Moon Slash] + [Whirlwind Attack]
[Triple Chop] + [Cyclone Axe] + [Whirlwind Attack]
Thats the highest DPS a warrior is gonna get. It still doesnt do more than an SS necro though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
EDIT: yes, I meant in HM.
I'd tell you to try the SS/arcane necromancer out yourself to understand, but you don't even need to in this case. Look, mobs attack 2-4x per 2 seconds in hard mode. DB does 90 damage every 2 seconds. SS does 66-132 every 2 seconds. SSx2 is 132-264 every 2s. Throw in Necrosis and a buffed sin just can't pass the necro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windf0rce
When running Sabway, for example, setting Livia as the SS/Barbs is effective enough. On the other hand, I can guess an Assassin hero certainly wouldn't be able to spam Moebius/Death Blossom as well as I do, switch targets, use Golden Fox/Wild Strike effectively on stance blockers, etc, and much less survive Hard Mode with 70 Armor, etc. Even if the hero managed all that, he/she wouldn't have access to Critical Agility which I think is key for the spam (33% IAS is huge!).
The AI plays a curse necro fairly poorly, actually. Their target selection is bad, they dont always cast SS when its up despite having enough energy, and they cant use arcane echo.
Critical agility is to assassins as necrosis is to necromancers. Both are uber, and heros dont have access to either. If you think about it, an SS/echo player is like having 2 curse heros and a discord hero in 1 package.
But hey, youve already decided on the assassin. Still a strong contender for high damage. I've said my piece. Good luck with that.
28 Jul 2008 at 06:18 - 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
[great dwarf weapon] [order of pain] [mark of pain] [barbs] on a melee = win
|
And those are also necro skills except for great dwarf weapon.
Quote:
SS's DPS is bad compared to a buffed physical so the point is don't bring a SS bring assassins promise so that your melee can blow shit up faster. I've seen that MoP nuker build at work and it can take out mobs ridiculously fast if placed on the right targets. Now that being said Dark 10 minions isn't as effective as a warrior simply because the warrior can knocklock or spam SY!.
|
You are wrong, minions target better because PUG wammos dont know how to hit the same target. And SY! is more effective on a paragon than a warrior.
Quote:
Not only that but there is usually more then one physical on a PvE team (paragon, dervish, sin, other warrior) and they usually have IAS's which means they attack much faster then minions ever could. This makes it smarter to bring physicals.
Actually the 10 fiends generate more attack per second than your IAS. In any case, ranged attackers dont need to run down to the intended target to hit them, so they are still faster since MoP damage is based on physical hits per second, and not the amount of damage you deal to the intended target. In fact, if you have so much damage as to kill the MoP target in just a few blows while surrounding monsters are still alive, then you have effectively wasted your MoP and you have to wait for it to recharge.
The purpose of MoP is to kill the surrounding monsters, not the target, which is why a smart human necro would wait till the surrounding monsters around the target are killed by MoP first before casting Barbs on the MoP target itself. The AI fails to use MoP correctly. Fiends with their lower damage, huge quantity, and fast attack speeds are made to synergize well with MoP.
Quote:
However if you are out on your lonesome and only have h/h access why not just bring physicals and minions twice the fun.
Melee AI have a pathing bug, ranged AI is better.
28 Jul 2008 at 07:12 - 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
You are wrong, minions target better because PUG wammos dont know how to hit the same target. And SY! is more effective on a paragon than a warrior.
|
PUGS = fail. good players = win. And even on a paragon w/e they still do a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing load of damage with buffs and trigger mop + barbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Actually the 10 fiends generate more attack per second than your IAS. In any case, ranged attackers dont need to run down to the intended target to hit them, so they are still faster since MoP damage is based on physical hits per second, and not the amount of damage you deal to the intended target. In fact, if you have so much damage as to kill the MoP target in just a few blows while surrounding monsters are still alive, then you have effectively wasted your MoP and you have to wait for it to recharge.
The purpose of MoP is to kill the surrounding monsters, not the target, which is why a smart human necro would wait till the surrounding monsters around the target are killed by MoP first before casting Barbs on the MoP target itself. The AI fails to use MoP correctly. Fiends with their lower damage, huge quantity, and fast attack speeds are made to synergize well with MoP.
I like to run (with organized groups) 3 moebius sins. They outdamge your silly minions, trigger mop, and deal and extra 80 per death blossom. 120 aoe damage is hawt.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Melee AI have a pathing bug, ranged AI is better.
works well for me........
28 Jul 2008 at 07:18 - 104
Each to their own.
I like my Sin.
MM's are great but they need corpses first, after that they are invaluable imo.Discord is only really good if theres 3 or 4 spiking down targets otherwise it's a wasted elite imo.
AoE>Single target spike especially with options like [putrid bile] [putrid explosion] [death nova] [mark of pain] [order of pain] , etc.
They are also problematic as they rely on influences outside of their control to be truly effective eg.Targeting awareness from other players, minion AI, etc, etc.
Personally I view Necros as a hybrid damage/support class.Either way a good one in HM is awesome especially with high SR but I wouldn't consider them DPS machines on their own when several other classes easily surpass their potential maximum DPS.
[moebius strike] + [death blossom] + [critical agility] + [splinter weapon] = teh sex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alundro
I'd tell you to try the SS/arcane necromancer out yourself to understand, but you don't even need to in this case. Look, mobs attack 2-4x per 2 seconds in hard mode. DB does 90 damage every 2 seconds. SS does 66-132 every 2 seconds. SSx2 is 132-264 every 2s. Throw in Necrosis and a buffed sin just can't pass the necro.
You forgot [splinter weapon] which is pretty default in HM and the fact SS is dependent on the target staying alive.When it drops your waiting on a 10s recharge while the DB spammer is already at the next mob firing with a fresh splinter on his daggers and a full energy bar.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE SS/arcane but overall I find DB spam to pump out more damage both reliably and consistently.
28 Jul 2008 at 07:32 - 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
I like to run (with organized groups) 3 moebius sins. They outdamge your silly minions, trigger mop, and deal and extra 80 per death blossom. 120 aoe damage is hawt.
|
Like I said, MoP doesn't work well with high single target damage. If you kill your MoP target too quickly, then you wont trigger as much MoP from it, and you have to wait for the spell to recharge before it can be used again.
At least silly minions damages can be fine tuned through proper hex application. If I need to kill surrounding monsters, I dont cast Barbs but just MoP, this makes the MoP target last longer to trigger off more MoP damage from it. If I dont need to kill surrounding monsters anymore, I just cast Barbs.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by fireflyry
You forgot [splinter weapon] which is pretty default in HM and the fact SS is dependent on the target staying alive.When it drops your waiting on a 10s recharge while the DB spammer is already at the next mob firing with a fresh splinter on his daggers and a full energy bar.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE SS/arcane but overall I find DB spam to pump out more damage both reliably and consistently.
To be fair, one doesn't cast SS like they cast Barbs or MoP. SS is a cast-and-forget hex, it means after you have cast it on a target, you switch to another target. If your team knows how to call target and attack a single target, then it should not be the ones that are hexed with SS that are attacked first. SS should be used on multiple targets to amplify its effects since it has a medium recharge and arcane echo job is to help him cast it on more targets, faster than the 10s recharge would otherwise allow.
28 Jul 2008 at 08:06 - 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Like I said, MoP doesn't work well with high single target damage. If you kill your MoP target too quickly, then you wont trigger as much MoP from it, and you have to wait for the spell to recharge before it can be used again.
At least silly minions damages can be fine tuned through proper hex application. If I need to kill surrounding monsters, I dont cast Barbs but just MoP, this makes the MoP target last longer to trigger off more MoP damage from it. If I dont need to kill surrounding monsters anymore, I just cast Barbs.
All three sins take three separate targets and when your necro is using assassins promise MoP works just as well with high damage (even though it will trigger 5+ times before the kill is made and that +db damage is ridiculous). I honestly cannot believe I'm having to argue with you over why a regular physicals are better then minions 
and yea mop + db + splinter is teh sex.
28 Jul 2008 at 08:30 - 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by alundro
Regardless, this is about the highest DPS in hard mode, not average DPS + uber mitigation. If I wanted that id make an imbagon, not an ES warrior.
[Hundred Blades] + [Sun and Moon Slash] + [Whirlwind Attack]
[Triple Chop] + [Cyclone Axe] + [Whirlwind Attack]
Thats the highest DPS a warrior is gonna get. It still doesnt do more than an SS necro though.
F-F_F-FFAAAIL
Triple Chop and Hundred Blades are BAAAAAD.
[For Great Justice!] [Dragon Slash] -> [Whirlwind Attack] -> [Dragon Slash] ->[Dragon Slash] -> [Whirlwind Attack] -> [Dragon Slash] -> [Whirlwind Attack]
Beats your Hundred Blades/Triple Chop. Maybe because in my build above, you can maintain stream of damage. As soon as you use Whirlwind Attack, you must wait for elites to recharge. That lowers your DPS drastically.
28 Jul 2008 at 08:43 - 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
All three sins take three separate targets and when your necro is using assassins promise MoP works just as well with high damage (even though it will trigger 5+ times before the kill is made and that +db damage is ridiculous). I honestly cannot believe I'm having to argue with you over why a regular physicals are better then minions
and yea mop + db + splinter is teh sex.
The problem with using them to trigger MoP is precisely the fact that their damage is indeed stronger than the fiends so I am agreeing with you that the 3 sins would deal higher damage than the fiends without MoP.
Look at it this way, how many hits would your 3 sins need to kill a normal target? Certainly fewer than the number of hits my fiends need to do. This means my fiends can trigger off more MoP than your sins because the MoP target remain alive longer.
I quickly changed my hero MM's build just so that I can generate a screenshot to demonstrate this. I was too lazy to change my entire team build so I just blanked them out to avoid confusion.
Look at the number of MoP triggers my fiends did against a non-boss creature. Since they dont have as high a damage to kill it too fast, before the surrounding monsters die. Also, fiends have better targeting, even though they are from a hero MM.
28 Jul 2008 at 08:59 - 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by alundro
[hundred blades] + [sun and moon slash] + [whirlwind attack]
|
I cringed when I saw HB, and I just hope you weren't serious. [[Dragon Slash] powers more Whirlwind = more AoE than your example could ever hope for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alundro
I'd tell you to try the SS/arcane necromancer out yourself to understand, but you don't even need to in this case. Look, mobs attack 2-4x per 2 seconds in hard mode. DB does 90 damage every 2 seconds. ... SS does 66-132 every 2 seconds. SSx2 is 132-264 every 2s. Throw in Necrosis and a buffed sin just can't pass the necro.
On groups of the strongest (eg stupidest, fastest attacking) monsters, dual SS might have a chance of keeping up with an unbuffed Sin (admittedly, not considering Necrosis spam). Tiny details:
1. You're not considering casters, which don't act as frequently as melees, when coming up with pretty numbers for SS
2. As DarkSpirit so aptly described, SS isn't controlled damage (indeed, it was never meant as a DPS skill at all - curse AI for being this dumb): a Blossom Sin can apply force where and when needed.
3. try2buffSSdmg4meagainplz
4. The OP has long made clear his intent.
Don't feel bad. As long as you pack [[Mark of Pain] and [[Barbs] you can always be in my party
EDIT: I've seen way prettier pictures DarkSpirit...
28 Jul 2008 at 09:27 - 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
.
To be fair, one doesn't cast SS like they cast Barbs or MoP. SS is a cast-and-forget hex, it means after you have cast it on a target, you switch to another target. If your team knows how to call target and attack a single target, then it should not be the ones that are hexed with SS that are attacked first. SS should be used on multiple targets to amplify its effects since it has a medium recharge and arcane echo job is to help him cast it on more targets, faster than the 10s recharge would otherwise allow.
Agreed but we all knew that.
My main point is that a DB sin has high damage consistency and near continuous AoE DPS regardless of what the team or mobs do.
Necromancers aren't as self reliant and really need near-perfect conditions, mob type and team work to really shine, especially if using SS.
Again I love my fellow Necros and rate them highly but in my personal experience DB Sins are more consistently effective at maintaining a high rate of AoE DPS with almost non-existent downtime and to be honest I rarely rate a classes worth on hypothetically perfect conditions.
28 Jul 2008 at 10:18 - 111
Wow the amount of ignorance XD
Umm spirit if you consider that massive dps, you havent seen the dps from ONE dslash warrior with splinter and mark of pain on target
28 Jul 2008 at 14:46 - 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
EDIT: I've seen way prettier pictures DarkSpirit...
|
Me too. I did say that this is a last minute effort on my part, to capture a screenshot to demonstrate this.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Akolo
Wow the amount of ignorance XD
Umm spirit if you consider that massive dps, you havent seen the dps from ONE dslash warrior with splinter and mark of pain on target
Lol! You are not the only one with a godmode dslash warrior. I have one too so I have a good idea what he is capable and not capable of.
Too bad that you still dont get how MoP works after so many posts, if you kill your MoP target too fast with your dslash, then it is bye bye MoP until it recharges. Even if you use AP for instant recharge, it is still going to be slower since you have to keep recasting it over and over, while I can kill an entire mob with just a single cast of MoP. If you really want to contribute to MoP triggering with your warrior, I would just use normal attack with a spear and [[Flurry]. A spear would help you to target your MM and fiends better.
28 Jul 2008 at 16:10 - 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Spirit
Last I remember, Splinter is physical damage, not armor ignoring but of course it helps. And Splinter would trigger MoP but fiends targeting is usually sufficient for me anyway. Having some melee to hold up and bunch up the group from fleeing would also help.
|
Have you ever even used Splinter Weapon and watched the damage yourself?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alundro
We're talking about highest DPS in hard mode and you champion a hammer warrior? And im the one accused of being high. I assumed if you brought ES, youd be weapon switching to a sword or axe to dish out more DPS from the buffs. You dont need many points in hammer for ES, after all. Sticking with a hammer while you're buffed like that is just a waste of time.
|
