Temple of the Elitist

not always true, some guild have idiots in them.

Now will be the rise of the QQ about people being unable to find groups. Because, it is true that for the million reasons people hated ursan in the end it gave every profession the ability to actually be looked at beyond class and as a "viable choice".

Now, pugs are impossible unless you do the holy trinity again (unless you have an active guild which a lot of people for different reasons do not have).

I would not be surprised if their is another form of buff back to ursan within a few months (not a revert, but a buff of some kind that would allow it to be usable again).

To OP:

Farther Baker...

We ran together a few times... but then you probably won't remeber the Derv (usually) trying to install some sanity in a group of over-aggroing peeps...

DoA was fun with Ursan. It opened up a way for any profession to PuG and, even with low AL characters as Ursans, if you had halve a brain the runs were super successful. I made some cash there and for that I will be greatfull to Ursan for a long time... (Bring on the HoM update!)

The day after the nerf I went and capped some elites, did some RA, HB etc. bought Tomes etc etc. all to set up different builds which I thought the "new generation" PuGs would consider useful. It turned out nasty though. After standing in GoA for hours (turned into days) trying to find a group it dawned on my that the clock has been turned back to the times before UB.
"No u fn noob, you are not Warrior or Ele or Monk... lmao!!!!!11!!1 derv GTFO!!!." Calling me a noob when I've cleared DoA with pugs maybe 50 times. Go figure.

The new generation PuGs turned out to be nothing more than oldschool relics that continues to live in the past. There is no grey area with them. They are not interrested in trying something different or new. And yes. I can imagine that failure of any kind will not be tolerated. (Oh, and I also tried finding a PuG for Slavers'... long story short, it ended the same way.)

So like you my last PuG attempt in DoA left a bad taste...

At least you have a Monk there. It will be tough to adapt to the playstyle of the majority of PuGs in there now but it's still possible for you to get into the groups. Dont give up, things will hopefully change over time.

And yes. Find a nice PvE Guild, one that would appreciate a new member with fresh ideas. There are guilds like that out there.
GoE, for example, came up with a new concept for DoA posted by Koning in the Farming section...



Then...

To all the rude elitists:
Lots of people enjoyed using Ursan.
And while I tend to agree that it 'probably' was good to remove it from the game it still has negative effects on lots of players.
After months of constant QQ you got your way, Ursan is dead.
Wether or not it is "better" for the game will only be seen in the long run. So this is not the "/end of the discussion", tyvm.

It doesnt really matter what you say or what you think. Just like this post is MY opinion, everything you have to add is YOUR opinion - why flame someone for stating theirs.

But I keep on forgetting...
Some people live in the Interwebs.
Some people actually play the game.

I'm off to make some popcorn.

Playing Guild Wars and complaining about aspects of the game without even being in a guild is pretty funny.

This site needs a /rolleyes emote so that I can get my point across.

ToA is like a concert for the deaf.
But hey - it's not like we didn't expect that. Besides, my heroes can't use PvE skills so it's not like anything changed.

QFT.

People are confusing words like "better", "fun", "open", and "social" for open abuse of a broken skill.

Thank god Anet didn't.

I'm just glad I can PuG my fav missions like THK without dealing with Ursan scrubs anymore.If I go to higher tier areas I grab guildies like any other player with a brain does.The "holy trinity" only applies to puggers and imo high-end areas should be the way they are:

Pugging = distinct disadvantage, restrictions, and/or fail.

Go join a decent active guild thats based in your area/time zone as high-end should be more enjoyable and rewarding to those that do and I'm glad Anet have reverted to that initial philosophy.

On the other hand... people who don't have R9+ Norn actually now have a chance. Swings and roundabouts.

Clearly there are still problems with the system... maybe the solution is to buff the 'unfavoured' professions to the point where the elitists are forced to acknowledge them, then slowly paring them back? Ursan, however, was at best a bandaid solution that just shifted the population being excluded.

The whole, quit your whining and go join a good guild has been beaten to death. It is very annoying that it is the answer to everyone's problems. Wonder how many players are in small guilds/ no guilds and don't have access to many pve players for high end areas. Most likely there are a great deal of them.

Having to leave your own guild, to join a guild with a lot of pve players just so you can occasionally go and complete the uw, doa, fow or whatever seems like a horrible excuse.

In an ideal game, everyone would be able to pug whatever they wanted and find groups. Unfortunately, that will never happen because of the mentality that you just need healers, tank/s and nukers. In my opinion having ursan the way it used to be wasn't as game breaking or problematic as everyone seemed to make it be.

Sure, everywhere you went you saw pugs forming ursan groups which you wanted no part of. You wanted real skilled builds which (according to everyones excuse) go find a guild to do it with. For pugs they relied on ursan because it was the only viable option for them to actually get a group.

Ursan was for the noobs/ pugs who just wanted to get things done. The casual players or people in small guilds that can't get a full group of friends to play whenever they want.

In all honesty, Ursan isn't as bad as everyone makes it. For the most part, everyone who was against it saying it was for noobs had a group of guild or friends they could complete things with actual skilled builds. Ursan is for noobs, no denying that.

Hopefully they will find a medium that will help, where noobs and pugs can actually go and get it done easily without as much prejudice. Where all the skilled players and guilds/friends can make their specialized group and complete things quicker than any ursan team could ever hope.

I guess you had some meaning there, yet I don't see it. Humour, maybe? Are my rights to have my own opinion invalidated by not being in a guild? But of course, holymasamune, you know my entire Guild Wars playing history and are completely at liberty to make such comments.

As for my 'complaint', the aspect of the game is not the game itself, but the players. Those that pour scorn on others for no proper reason. Much like you just did, sadly. I'm not moaning about builds and skills, just those that sit behind their keyboards passing judgement on those less fortunate because they've come the game later in its life and have to contend with the 'elite' players.

There are players in the game that never knew a Guild Wars without Ursan. These players should not be criticised for not having a build to fall back on, when all they saw up to now was that they needed a certain Norn rank. These players are among those asking around for new ideas and it's the 'elite' players who then take great delight in shouting at them. All they really needed to do was ping the build being requested, but apparantly that's too much for some people.

ALL PvE-only skills.
They did and they do.

(Like I said - the post you quoted would need a /rolleyes emote.)

While absolutely true, there are several problems to be overcome:

1) Most players are terrible, and if you're pugging there are relatively few good screening mechanisms for weeding out idiots prior to entry.

2) This directly follows from #1: Most group leaders are terrible, and can't come up with a non-standard build to save their lives.

3) Time is money. If you're pugging an elite area, presumably you're only there for the loot. (If you were there for fun, you wouldn't pug, because pugs are almost never fun.)

Implication: expect to see the same unimaginative, relatively quick build in PuGs. Running the same build everyone runs stabilizes expectations, which helps address problem #1. Problem #2 can only be overcome in a regular play group situation where a good leader is supported by good players. So, the locally optimal solution to #3 given #1 and #2 is going to be wiki builds in PuGs. Further note that consumables are a way of addressing #1.

Any questions?

Whether or not you're in a guild has little to do with the game itself. The hell kind of logic are you twisting about?

Actually it is all about people that need to feel better than others and they want the game to provide them with this possibility. After Ursan nerf they now came back to Toa and Goa and keep rebuilding their ego. Elite missions are for elite someone wrote in one of the posts above. I think that sums it up.

I do not know if ursan nerf was good or bad for the game. I am sure of one thing the game would be better when all those elitist would go do something else than just sit in elite areas and show off. So that the new people can try to explore new areas by themselves instead of mindless running (regardless with Ursan or without) with "stand here", "kill that", "cast this" etc. You learn game by exploring it by yourself not by receiving a set of instructions, copying builds, and you have fun when you do not have to hear all the time "you noob" every time you try something new or "I did it 120 times already, so I know better than you".

Actually I play the game from 2005 and I have to say it was much better back then. There were mostly new people in the game. All wanted to learn and explore. I still remember dying 3 times in a row in a different pugs in ruins of Surmia on my first charr till finally doing it correctly. Nobody was flaming and calling names. It was really fun. Playing the game was more important than having the mission done in a few minutes and with using the most efficient route. Now there are not many new players in game. Those who join leave soon... If you want to have GW more fun then stop showing off.

A game designed for team play that incorporates a huge aspect of the game into developing groups (guilds). I'd say being in a guild is rather logical.

It's like saying killing monsters (grouping) is hard with 0 attributes (no guild). You want to play without them, then you have to deal with the loss of benefits.

The ppl who are now badmouthing others in DoA and ToA are the same ppl who wanted to see Ursan nerfed. They ran their cookie cutter builds before ursan and are at it again. And those builds, most got from wiki/ guru are no different than the 1234 that ursan used to be. Its the same shit. Tap tap tap. Imo the ursan nerf will only contribute tot the shrinking player pool. I believe most post introduction ursan players will quit the game.

Anet couldn't care less that players are leaving. They allready got payed and benefit from a small player pool, cause they can close servers and save money on energy costs. That is the downside with not having a monthly fee. Anet has no insentive whatsoever to fix this broken game.

One thing the elitists should keep in mind however is that with an ever shrinking player pool, to whom will they be selling all those rare drops from the UW/FoWDoA to? The market is saturated as is allready. Think about it.....elite run...rare item.......guess you'll have to merch it; cause the players you where rude to/ the potential buyers, wont be around for you to sell your elite drop to.

Great idea, Heros hardly ever run off in different directions trying to do their own thing(unless they are named koss)
and they never just map out for no reason.

I happen to lead my guild which is made up of mostly family, friends and roommates. Granted, i do have other members but sadly i am the most elite player in my guild. I enjoy leading a guild and my alliance. Unfortunately any other player with as much or even more experience than me is not looking for a mere 20 member guild. So i have to resort to my friends list to find anyone who wants to UW or FoW or DoA. Which at any time i have maybe 7 to 10 friends online. Chances of finding one that is down for a UW clear is not very promising. Which leaves me to PUGs but now a days i would rather take mhenlo and his band of merrymen than flaming stick-up-the-ass people who will not hesitate to leave the party 1/3 of the way through UW after he dies for the first time.
So until i either get lucky and find steady elite players who want to join my guild or my alliance, DoA will be unreachable. Guess Ill just stick to H/H Vanquishing.
Im not complaining, just stating an observation.

How many casual players have the time to grind to R9 Norn? I'd rather make a brand new character of one of the desired professions.

As I said earlier, getting rid of Ursan just traded one form of elitism for another. But with Ursan dominant there was no way that the elitism could be removed, while now there may actually be a chance.

It took 5 hours to max Norn during one of the double reward points weekends. It took much longer to max LB and SS.
Do you mean to say that starting a new character of the "desired" (read: elitist, holy trinity) profession and completing NF is faster?

I hope you are right. But the only possible way that I see this happening is if ANet buffs the "undesired" professions to the point where they are better than the current "desired" professions AND there are different builds posted on pvx straight after that.

True but does that justify the brokeness that was UB pre-nerf?

Nope.

Me thinks not.

Being able to PuG and steamroll high-end is not good for the game.There should be areas where teamwork, experience and communication count.

UB did anything but promote this.

Common sense?

Playing with an experienced and well organized group of people has a lot to do with the game itself.It's a team based MMO, not Dungeon Siege.

The game was popular before, it will be popular after.

If scores of people decide to leave because they can't Ursanway through the whole game the community will be all the better for it.

Regardless the smoke screen of "it was better", "everyone could play", "it was more fun", "only elitists will have fun now", etc, etc is laughable and easily seen through.

You can still have as much fun as you want.

You can't steamroll high-end areas with a broken skill.

It would be so much easier if people were honest about why they are QQing as opposed to claiming how much this nerf broke the whole game.

It didn't.

As long as 5/8 of the party insist on being 100% damage, the tank/nuke/heal trinity will dominate pugs. Even with buffs to mesmers, rits, ect., this attitude will still be there and the majority will be trying to run every profession as some sort of nuker/DPS monster(CoP mes is a good example). After 3 years+ of them being insta-killed when aggro breaks, they still don't see the need for trading off some of that damage/power healing for wards/snares/prots/etc. Any suggestion to take a bit of defense/support quite often invokes a rage-filled outburst as if you were asking them to give up their firstborn.

I seem to remember Ursan stopped being a way for any profession to get into a pug when Farming Pugs started DEMANDING Warrior / Mesmer as the Ursan. So Ursan was no longer a way any profession could join pugs and it went back to profession discrimination we had before GW:EN

Elite areas all seem to have one problem, the dominate pugs in these areas are farming pugs that require each player to perform a certain task. There is also that efficiency thing and that is why farmers don’t allow for variation since your build may not work with their team. I just wish farming pugs allowed for more variations or that farming pugs had an open mind (never going to happen).

If unable to join a guild I would also recommend a second account so that you can borrow 3 heroes from the other account. Six heroes is something I find enjoyable because you are not on a time limit, you can take breaks, and you don’t have to deal with the attitude or inept players.

Paragons are extremely helpful, close to OP'ed when used well, and people STILL haven't realized it, think they suck and stick to the holy trinity. Active prot monks... WTF? PUGs don't know them, they prefer bonders and healers. Never heard of a PUG seeking for a blindbot, a BHA ranger, an interrupt mesmer, a Moebius Strike sin....

Let's see what a PUG thinks about professions.
- Warriors: tanks
- Derv: they wear skirts, warriors r bettr
- Monk: healer, AKA the one to blame for all deaths
- Ele: straight fire nuker, nothing else else WERE NUBS
- Assassin: nub thing that dies too fast
- Necros: either SS or battery, sometimes MM...
- Paragon: useless nerfed thing wearing a skirt
- Mesmer: useless profession, lol dun need interrupts lol
- Rits: monk wannabe, sucks as a damage dealer
- Ranger: b/p

Close to NOTHING is going to change this in the whole game, it's like trying to make a cat go "woof".

Some time ago there were countless discussions about titles. That they made game more about a grind than about a skill. Ursan made grind easier. It served perfectly this purpose.

Surprisingly to make game again more playable ursan nerf did not help at all (I am still not sure if it was good or bad). Still average PUG will be a disaster. In ToA and GoA is now even worse than before.

I still think problem is not about Ursan but about the people.

On one hand there is a clique of elitist who wants to show off their godlike ability to play and flame everyone not wanting to play their way (now trinity is again back on top) and wanting a limited access to elite areas so that they can again feel special. On the other side ones who want an easy grind (to get the titles to show off or any other purpose) and an easy mindless way of going through the game. Anet struggles between pleasing those two groups having often actually contradictory requirements for example regarding famous Ursan. In games with such a big communities as GW there is no way to please everyone.

Regardless which side anet takes at the given moment the whole game is not a bit nicer for the people playing it only for fun. I am afraid there are not enough people playing it for fun anymore. Anet should focus on pleasing those in the first place because they are the ones encouraging others to join the game and they are the ones who are important for the community in my opinion.

You have to have standards though.

The UB nerf proved that the definition of "fun" for a large majority of GW players was actually abusing an imbalanced skill.

The fact that the main motivation to play GW now revolves around the repetition of old content to garner titles doesn't help things as the majority focus of the meta is now repetition of content as quickly as possible.

It's really flawed game design that has caused the whole UB debacle and created the general GW mentality hence while you state:

...I am of the opinion it's bad game design that has really elevated the whole issue to a new level, a game design where the fastest way to repeat something is the majority, having fun is the minority.

Anet dictated this philosophy, not the player imo.

As it's a logical flaw of any non-subscription game and I can't see a solution outside increasing the frequency, quality and quantity of new content.

it makes me want to cry knowing how right you are here
ah ha.. ah hahahah... hahahahahahaha


its getting there.. its not better yet

Personally
if you cannot use the "don't like it; don't use it (go play with other people who don't like it)" argument when defending UB
then...
you cannot use the "don't like it; don't use it (and join a better guild)" argument when defending holly trinity.

So how will/can you complete an elite area; nowadays ?

In short: it is just as in the (?good?) old days.

Either you're lucky enough to have rolled the correct proffesion + have the right skills
or
you don't.

Incase you don't ... well... good luck on completing an elite area; you'll need it.

Possible ways:

1.Waiting for a guild/alliance group (alot of the same guildtags) and try to talk your way into it.

=> tried multiple times; but most of the time they're "full" (read: prefer to take a hero instead of you ... but then again can you REALLY blame them for doing so?)

2.Trying to tackle it with heros together with a friend.

=> is doable (I guess) but requires alot of hero microing and some knowledge of the area itself (I don't think there are any build on pvxwiki for this -yet-)
AND heros tend to do weird stuff at worst possible times, wich most of the time equals party whipe.

3.Talking your way into a holly trinity group (be prepared to run all kinds of weird gimmicks: for instance the BiP paragon (like it actually works -_-') or obby paragon)

=>aside from the fact most holly trinity groups don't make it to the end of the elite area anyway, and most of them wouldn't even dare to try it in their wildest dreams; it seems to be the fastest way to do so.

4.Or trying to leech of some farmers

=> best bet tbh; never tried it though

5. making your own holly trinity

=> like that would actually work ...


I have the feeling I'll miss UB for a loooong time to come.

Some people spouting their elitist, holier-than-thou bullshit here aren't even good enough at PvE to be doing so. And why are you telling the OP to use their friend's list if their guild isn't good? Where do you propose people make friends that aren't in their guild? Gasp - it couldn't be PUGS, could it?! Remember, in order to make friends with someone, you have to meet a stranger first. When are you guys going to realize you aren't cool just because you can mock people from an extremely objective point of view? When will you wake up, smell the coffee and realize that this game isn't "GW according to me"? My humble suggestion: don't post hardcore if you aren't that. I'm not sure if it's more amusing or more disappointing.

As for the OP - I agree that Ursan opened the doors for more people. Before Ursan, and after Ursan, there were cookie cutter builds, and that won't change. Most people won't admit it to themselves, but Ursan was just another type of cookie cutter build, and not so different other things. Having said that, I also agree with Romeus - the purpose of elite areas is that not everyone can do them. It's unfortunate for the average GW player because now their choice of in-game activity has been significantly reduced, even if they aren't that good.

I hope you find a guild that suits your needs. I think everyone here who has a good guild takes it for granted. I've been in mediocre guilds before, and its hard to leave them for a "good" guild because I have made friends. The people here telling you to jump ship are ignorant and out of touch. I wish you good luck.

Imbagon much?

No, in a perfect game you would need good coordination/timing/group work in general to pull off a tough area. Heaven forbid you aren't given your ELITE areas handed to you on a silver platter anymore.

Hell, it's not like DoA is fun at all, so just don't do it anyways.

Wrong.

One the one hand there are people who bought the game for its main selling points of skill > time.
On the other hand there are those who bought the game thinking it was a free WoW.

Nobody is defending holy trinity.

Decent builds, common sense and skill.

I see a lot of people advocating for the fact that Ursan opened a lot of doors for people, and that it enabled more puggability with respect to elite areas.

When I say that 90-95% of the GW playerbase is fairly mediocre/bad at this game, I don't mean it in a GuildWarsGuru forum hyperbole sense, I mean it quite literally.

My guildies can attest I have a masochist desire to pug; I go to places that I remember as being difficult and I try to go along with pugs for the sake of helping them. Overwhelmingly, I'm somehow told that I should change my build up. If I'm on monk, I'm told to HB. If I'm an a Paragon, they ask me to reroll. If I'm on a warrior, they ask for tanking skills, etc. These pugs, which are quite representative of the whole playerbase, are just plain bad.

When you tell me that Ursan was good because it allowed pugs to power through elite areas, I don't care. I don't actually believe that bad players should be able to beat elite areas, and with such ease.

When areas like Urgoz first came out, they actually took a degree of skill. I appreciated that, because pugs of the run-of-the-mill player could still conquer, albeit with a bit of difficulty, missions like Vizunah Square, which (at the time) were considered trials of fire. Pugs with more coordination and skill could tackle Raisu Palace, and even better pugs could beat Urgoz, but not without a lot of hardship involved. There was a significant chance of failure, which actually befitted the 'Elite' status of the mission.

The problem is that there was never a need for Ursan; resources like Guru and the Wiki allowed for quick reference to builds and strategy, as well as to a lesser extent grouping and even guild connections.

This is all a classic example of laziness triumphing over initiative, which is why I whole heartedly shoot down any notions that Ursan was good, even for pugging.

If you enjoy leading your guild of friends that aren't really very good at all, then don't blame us for your inability to pug. If you're in a PvP guild, make friends with a PvE guild; I have many PvPers that come with me on my Vanquishing and dungeon runs because they can't get it through their own guild.

Each player in this game determines their own level of involvement and ability to progress; some put forth effort and are rewarded, whether it's a /Rank emote from HA or riches from constant UW/FoW/DoA runs, etc. Others don't, and then proclaim that it's such a shame that the Guild Wars community is so cold to their plight.

The resources are all there, I really have no sympathy.

I pitty the fool.

Exactly, so could someone tell me why we're still limited to three heroes? As someone who mostly plays undesired professions, I get mighty pissed when I'm told to play with PUGs.

Snow I love you lol, QFT ten times over! It was far worse 3 years ago, because back then nobody would ever think of bringing a ranger, necro or mesmer for anything at all. Nowadays there is a use for SS necros, splinter barragers and cryway mesmers, as far as the pug mentality goes.

I think this is more accurate.

Words of wisdom.. especially the part where you agree with me

Someone once asked me why I joined and stayed with their guild when I had friends in another. My simple response was, "I made friends here, when I didn't expect to."

Even though that guild wasn't the best I've played with, or the most active in my hours, it was important to me because of the people.

I don't think Ursan is the best thing that happened to this game, but I don't think it's much different than other "standard" stuff. I agree that people are responsible for their in-game experience for the most part, but surely a little compassion never killed anyone?

Most intelligent and thought-out reply that's ever been in disagreement with one of my posts.

I agree that sometimes a little compassion is necessary. However, people get much farther when they help themselves.

The doors are quite honestly open - PvE and PvP guilds of all sorts constantly recruit on Guru; if you're afraid of being new in a guild, make yourself a presence in your new home. Organize vanquishes, FoW clears, whatever it is that strikes you.

Personal initiative is key.

I guess some part of this is luck, but the key to having fun and being able to form groups is falling in with the right group of friends / guild. I have 4 friends that I hang out with regularly irl that play GW . . . we help each other out. I have been playing with alot of the same players for 2+ years as well . . . a good guild with a forum, a good friends list, people helping other players to get things done. It is very nice, but again, I suppose it takes some luck. Interestingly, I met alot of the players I still play with in a PUG in FoW. We were doing great, and no one batted an eye at my Mesmer. Then I realized they all had the same cape . . . was invited, and there ya go.

I think that there are some ways to encourage diffrent style of play eg. better rewards for more proffesion diversified teams.