Temple of the Elitist

Well you just summed up sms

I say he summed up [TAM]. Discuss!

i disagree, especially to that of a competent guild. i've been in 5 guilds in my 3 years, and 3 of them were total asshats, even though they were also considered "elite". nothing but bad players, egomaniacs, and stubborn tank n' spankers.

I understand the Ursan nerf. It made the use of Ursan more fair across the board. There were power house builds like what I had set up with a ParaSin Ursan build that could maintain it indefinately - or damn close. (Even though I am only rank 6 and so never got to use it for vanquishing, farming UW, etc.) The time limit on Ursan - regardless of your energy level means you have to take a break between assaults and plan your tactics. It has effectively done little to the power of Ursan, but it has extended the time it takes to use it to get one's goals accomplished. With the exceptional cost in gold and time to prepare for GW2 via the HoM (the only point now left to the games since ANet no longer cares about GW1) we have been punished some more for finding something that works.

As to the guild situation, I have an alliance. I play with the good people in it when our goals match or I know they cannot get through a section without real people who know the mission. PUGing is not bad because without it you would never meet new people to play with. However, PUGing in elite areas will always be bad because many of those there believe in their own perfection. Since they are perfect and have little real life time to raise the 19 million plus gold for things they need to accomplish - they are short tempered and ill mannered. The presures causing the social problems in GW are created by GW.

It takes awhile to find a guild you like. Since GW still has a fairly large player base by any standard, befriending players randomly is kinda hard unless you spend a lot of time doing one thing or happen to find yourself as a ringer in a guild group. Unfortunately most guilds grossly overstate what they offer, making the guilds that are ran well with active, experienced players that aren't retarded assholes (in the truest sense of the word) hard to find.

I agree with you.
If you join a guild and find yourself constantly asking for help you are not in the right guild.
I don't mind people asking for help once in a while.
But most of the time the response they get from me is a series of questions.
What goes well, what goes wrong, what do you think makes you fail?
If I feel like it I might join, but I refuse to get someone further in the game where they will be a burden to other players.
Most important is to find a guild at your level, not the level you want to be.

What is a bigger problem most of the time is for less active players to get into the active player group.
If you play once in a week and others play daily you risk to be the last pick for events.
And about retarded assholes, I think you did not want to read my mind in the FoW group I joined yesterday. I didn't express my annoyance that much but it was obvious to the others that I wasn't really having fun.
For an outsider it's easy to think that I'm some kind of asshole while I just wasn't in the mood for the kind of fun some others were having (like a guildie running around with no armor while I was counting when my PS on him would wear off so I didn't waste too much energy on him).

I already miss the "PRO URSAN LFG" spams in ToA. Loved them.

QFT. Dunno how I missed this post...

I've had cases where simply because I'm an officer, they expected me to be constantly helping them, giving them builds, tagging along in missions. These players left pretty fast because we're not that type of guild. We expect our players to be at a similar level OR be willing to improve fast enough to catch up with us.

Example: we were pretty big on ToPK a while back. Our monk dragged his ranger and his necro over there just to learn the different spots to make groups faster - I taught him how to pull and he's got all the skills to fill up any spots in there. So can I. He's generally a monk and I'm generally a b/p puller, but we're able to switch depending of what our group needs. Same thing with our usual MM. This enables us to bring people to have them learning the area, then helping them getting to our level.

I might help for a couple missions, but I expect my folks to play on their own as well as with other people. So far it works, and when we have someone who keeps asking for constant help, we get tired of it fast.

I say both!
Wait, I'm 'IN' both...whoa..head rush!

OT:
I think this post sums it all up in a nutshell:
These 'Elitists' players some folks seem to be complaining about do not exist.
The players that know GW...well, they're around, and enjoying their game in a guild team, laughing at the purple drops a guildie got from a high end chest...

Guildwars has recoiled to that unfortunate zone yet again. Everyone old enough remembers that when this game first started THK was a haven for pugs to join groups. (along with other areas, THK is a god like example though) The concept of someone not having the right build, or being too noobish never really applied. It simply just meant the party had to help said person along, which was usually done with eager anticipation.

To go into ToA, which I have been doing for 31 months, and get rejected from groups full of 10 month old accounts, makes me sick. I have participated in many different types of dual runs, team runs, traps, solo farms (of my own creating), chest runs (btw WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE! so much fun), and clearing attempts. To reject a player from a group for reasons other than we have 7 non monks is just annoying.

Everyone should grow up, and remember that the game is supposed to be fun, not monotonous. Try some new group styles out, get to know random people, AND QUIT MAKING TOA A HAVEN FOR ABSOLUTE IDIOTS.

I think some of us should team up together at some point. I'm serious, as I find it hard to find other people interested in doing other stuff than cookie-cutter, and with HiDE's activity level... couldn't hurt to get more people for fun.

I had that experience for the first time in some while yesterday, actually. Couple of alliance folks ended up making a laid-back FoW run and we took a few PUGs. Our group ended up as a Flashing Blades assassin (me), a snarer/fire nuker (a PUG), a full fire nuker (guildie), SS necro (guildie), a battery (PUG that we took last minute and didn't ping his build, not that we cared), an imbagon (MrSlayer ) and a HBoon monk with her N/Rt healer (guildie). Sadly the PUG ele and our monk d/c'ed and the N/Rt wasn't enough with my aggro-happy attitude . (I really tried toning it down, I did!)

It was FUN. No one was in a rush, no one got mad when the ele had to go take care of his/her little brother, or when our monk d/c'ed. No one was mad when we wiped near Burning Forest... my friends also didn't care too much that I messed up horribly on my build, or that the battery only used BR during the whole run. My message from the monk was clear: "attack through SS! I need to work here!"

I really missed that kinda stuff.

"I think some of us should team up together at some point."

I agree. IGN: Carnage Runner I'm always game for something, and I really don't care what.

This is not madness after Ursan Nerf. I have no problem running around Dwarven Stance hammer smashing stuff. I love it, actually get to use my weapons I spent ridiculous amounts of money on.

Anyone who wants to do some Old School, straight up, PVE, the way our professions were designed to do them. Give me a PM, I will be down for most anything.

Carnage, while I admire you desire to pug up, this game is 3 years old. THK was never a haven for pugs. THK was a source of frustration for many.
People who are good at this game eventually took some initiative and found good guilds/friends to play with. I am done pugging. I have exercised my last bit of altruistic patience to pug after this weekend, where despite my best efforts, none of the pugs worked because they were too damn stubborn to take some advice.
THK only had a lot of pugs because so many people needed to get through that mission; same reason Vizunah Square had so many pugs. The learning curve was so steep for many. It didn't concern anything about a desire to grab-and-go, it was out of necessity for most.

True, THK was a pain for many. But there were always lots of districts with tons of groups forming, reforming and calling each other names. It's where you either had to stop and think through builds and strategies or get carried through by those who knew what they were doing.

Looking back, I realize that THK was the point where I stopped joining other groups and used hench almost exclusively. Hell, if hench could do something so easily that "morans" (note the 'a') couldn't, there was no need to put up with ppl after that. Wonder how many other players THK converted to henchlovers

Ofcourse they do exist. The trick is to ignore them most of the time and interact with them when you're bored and looking for fun.

THK was one of the missions I spend a lot of time on.
Always shortage on monks and I liked playing monk there even when teams failed from once in a while. Same with Hell's, I think I can still dream that one.

The time I stopped playing PUG was when it started to take ages to get a team together. That was the late canthan missions I think.
I don't mind playing for half an hour, fail and succeed the second time.
I do mind waiting an hour, fail after half an hour and waiting another hour to get a new team going....

I completely understand the Ursan Nerf, and why all the QQ's could not be ignored. I was an Ursan Junkie for sure, but I was excited to see what people would figure out once that was taken away. People have come up with alternatives and work arounds for sure, but I also feel Anet missed their goal.

Ursan was nerfed/buffed supposedly to make it so people did not have to grind to R10 Norn to get in a group, but now, guess what? There are no Ursan groups!! The work arounds are more complex and now you will only be able to take guild teams in with Ursan because of that. Being an ursan now excludes you from more runs than it would have gotten you into with PUG team.

The activity level has dropped significantly and since they are delaying the Hall of Monuments upgrade to tormented wepons, they have not created a higher demand for Gems/Ecto so nobody is working on a PUGable DOA/UW team.

I think the Ursan Nerf was a good idea for the most part, but they also needed to include something that would make the Farms/Runs of these areas just as appealing.

Now Shadow Form is the Skill to have and if you DONT have a Sin or Ele with that, you can forget UW. 600/Smite/Famine can farm areas but not clear all in DoA. Does that make it more inclusive for everyone or does it exlude more classes? Ele and Sin, MINUS Monk, Ranger, Warrior, Paragon for the hardcore and all the other classes that could run "squishy" ursan. This is not more inclusive, it just went back to being even more EXCLUSIVE.

As far as I am concerned this will work out just fine for me. What my concern /complaint is that more and more mainstream/average people are playing less and/or quitting. I hate to see that. More people playing makes for a more enjoyable experience. Anet took away something from All Classes, yet left SF in tact if not better for the Ele/Sin folks. I understand thier motive, but the results should be obvious now.

IMHO Anets attempt to balance Ursan - Good Work!

IMHO Anets attempt to include more people in gameplay - Fail! This hurt more of your average player base than it helped. Now only elite players and guild teams can do this with Ursan, and the Shadow Form folks continue to prosper. Had this been a truely fair update to all classes and levels of player, Armbraces and Ectos would have skyrocketed.

Anet - I hope you seriously re-look this situation before you lose more players in the ever shrinking world you control.

Even though I never liked ursan I can understand why many of them are upset. They did all that work just so they could get into pugs and now that works counts for nothing.

Elitist players do exist and they like to call themselves hardcore (yeah that means I am an elitist) but it also means I play at a certain level and I would like to find friends that play at the same level. I don't like guilds, constantly getting pm'ed to help other people, so the occasional pug would be my only chance to find new friends.

I don't mind showing people things, have taught several how to 600, and found a few good friends along the way. I have also tried to teach people to 600 but they refuse to do the attribute quest and/or get the right equipment.

If they do not want to make some effort in the basic area then I am not going to waste my time on them trying to show them something they are not ready to do yet. I just wish there was a way to identify these people before you let them into a pug.

As I said before, PUGs need a meta to succeed. They will require you to run the meta, no matter what it is. If it's 5 eles, a warrior and 2 monks, they're not gonna take anything else, even valid variations (Me/E fast-cast, N/E, Rt/E) cecause it's always been like this, yada yada. They don't wanna think, they wanna win.

Don't wanna play the meta? 2 choices IMO.
- Guild + friend list. If you are in the right guild, and friends with the right people, you won't need to run cookie-cutter or the meta in order to succeed, because they'll know better.

- Make your own group. Yesterday, we were 2 warriors, a sin, 2 healers, 2 necros and an ele. We did fine before our guild monk got too tired to keep up :P.

But with PUGs, you need the meta. They're never gonna switch the mentality, even if you SHOW them other ways...

The Ursan nerf IMO SHOULDN'T have hurt the fanbase. Why? Because this game, at base, is about player skill. You're expected to know the basics.

However, the way Ursan was implemented, it was extremely easy to pick up the game, run crappy builds until you got to R10 and then farm elite areas in the easiest way possible.

And now that's it gone, the players who did that (pick up the game and going straight for Ursan stuff) don't know anything about making a decent, viable build. They got their 1337 weapons and armor, but I doubt they know how this game fully works. If people cry that the game is hard now that Ursan is nerfed, they need to adjust or quit. Some chose to quit, other chose to adjust, and some chose to QQ to get their OP'ed skill back.

It's a cycle. Ursan was nothing more than a meta that was extremely OP'ed. We're now back to other metas, and after this one there's gonna be another...

I've only been playing for a few months now (and still consider myself to be a bit of a newb), so please correct me if I'm wrong, but:

1. The ursan nerf was because it was overpowered, not because people didn't want to grind their norn title (btw, i've never learned the UB skill). Now it takes more planning, strategy, and overall player skill to run an 8-man team based around this skill - which is why you won't see it much anymore with the average PUG. but since when was having to go into elite areas with pre-planning and build tweaking a bad thing?

2. There are still plenty of reasons to go to elite areas, first and foremost: the challenge. I honestly don't go to FOW or UW anymore to farm (and people that still do chaos plains farming imo deserve every ecto they may or may not make...can't stand seeing that hazy blue aura anymore lol) - I go to these places for the challenge of clearing them. I have NEVER cleared UW or FOW with a team before, and that's what keeps bringing me back.

3. If the ursan nerf is what drives people out of the game, then so be it. The people that are left are the ones that truly appreciate what this game has to offer. Let's face it - UB was a crutch, and ANET's finally taken away the training wheels. Now start pedaling.

If Ursan nerf drives people out of the game, then it's GG ANET. The more elitist noobs leave, the better for both the game and the community.

the ursan nerf did drive alot of players out of the game... at least in DoA. Its a welcomed change to me as i like having a skillbar.

However, now the game is in jeoparty due to the fact that all the exclusive ursan players might or might not leaving the game. Assuming if the Ursan players decided to actually learn to play without the bear, then it was a good move. More actual skillbars, more diversity. However, the stubborn ursans totally quit the game, and i am afraid there are quite a few of them, the game get a drop in player base.. which could be bad for anet as well as everyone else left in game.

I highly doubt that thousands of gamers, bought eotn just to UB...there are more details on the box than:
"BUY THIS!! BE A BEAR, AND BREEZE THRU THIS GAME!!!"
If any have left, it is because they were guildless, lazy, and or dense when it comes to adapting to online gaming.
ANet got thier money....they be a QQ'n all the way to the bank.
I say..good move ANet, this game needs more shaking up to keep it from getting stale.
But please, try to stick to the original spirit of the game.

I think none of the Ursaners are elitists. It's a paradox, like I saying "All Europeans are liars!". Ursan = "casual" (hehehe), Elitist = not casual. Although people using that term use it just like "You Jew!" or "You idiot!", that is without sense or randomly.

I met some heavy Ursan users that were pretty effing close to what I'd refer as an elitist; they only want W/Me R10 ursans, anything else is just a n00b scrub and deserves all the insults possible.

But really, anyone that feels like insulting any other person because of views on gameplay (lol teres only pvp/pve tats gud 2 play, u suck cuz u dont play what i play and how i play) is an elitist.

And it's indeed a paradox.

Nerfs, buffs, and all that stuff isn't really the main problem in the game as far as I can see. Overall, people just need to lose the "noob" and "elitest" mentalities and be more open to things and people. Enjoy the game and have fun.

Someone pings a build you don't like, give them suggestions instead of calling them a "noob" and booting them off the bat. Give them a chance. If they refuse to listen or behave like a jerk, then do something.

I'm glad I have more than just one char, so I have a better chance of finding groups, since my main character isn't one of the "trinity." Not everyone has one of the three, which is annoying if they want to do something and end up getting called names. That's one reason Ursan was appealing - people could do it on the overlooked professions with out the "noob" callers.

And as for joining a guild, maybe not everyone wants to leave a guild that has their friends just to do certain areas in the game.

So yeah, in any case, the overall thing is the attitudes of the players - being more open on things (ex. taking some other profession that isn't in the norm) and to people. Sure, some people can have horrid skill bars. Perhaps they don't know any better and could use some constructive criticism. In the long run, if they take those suggestions to heart, that will help them become a better player. And if everyone did that, the atmosphere in the game would be much improved.

Just my 2¢.

This is the crux of it all...right there.
Many want to 'fit in'...many want to have the right skills, items, guild....but they don't.
Many haven't put forth the effort to gain these thngs either.
Try having a civil discussion with a 12-15yr old kid that thinks their build 'pwns face'.
Try to take a 12-15yr old PuG into an elite area, and have them aggro every red dot for laughs.
Good fun..I think not.
Guilds were created to give players the variety they want...with less experienced players hopefully learning from the more seasoned ones.
I have an open mind....but when it comes to a player not listening, adapting their skill bar to an area, or bad mouthing the team as a whole...they have no place on my team, and are booted without another word spoken.

Yep, that's why I said in the second lil blurb if something like that happens do something about it then (such as kicking them or whatnot). Chances are if they don't take advice graciously, they won't bother being a team player. And it depends on the maturity (not speaking in terms of age) of the player.

Yet again I feel sadgasm ;[ *cut cut cut*

Do something in my case means = leave from group and never group again. But, I don't PuG anyway.

One thing I don't like is saying someone XX years old is superior to someone YY years old. But it is okay to say someone from group ŹŹ acts like he's ŁŁ years old. Same as it's not okay to make fun of people's country, but it is okay to make fun of where they live. Country-wise, of course.

I used the age factor as an example..I imagine there are more mature teen agers out there than say, someone in their mid 20's..but that isn't my point.
*nibbles your avatar for drama*
My point is, some younger-minded players don't want to listen to anyone that, in their eyes, say "YOUR build won't work in <insert area here.>....try this.
For some reason they go nuts, and come QQ on a games forum.

This depends.
For example, if I have a 7/8 team which needs a specific profession with a specific build there is not much room for someone who does not have those skills. An other example, recently I ran a 'random' team in FoW. But random means filling some gaps, so I expect players to have skills to fill those gaps.
And players joining shouldn't aim for a fast run

Then there is the player's build. I don't mind someone running an odd build. But (s)he should be able to tell me why it would work and enhance the team.
Else they are back to basic builds or out of the team.

Last there is the education of players.
If I go to the elite areas I don't want to explain players the basic game mechanics. Sure, someone might not have been in such an area before and I don't mind explaining the specifics. But I don't want to explain to a caster why he shouldn't be the first to aggro an Abyssal except when I expect him to do just that. Or that same caster standing in Maelstrom wondering why his spells fail. Or a warrior running back to the group dragging aggro all over without reason.
Or why a W/R with barrage/pet would probably not be the best build to run as warrior. Even with a zealous bow.... Save those builds for regular PvE and learn why they most likely are not as efficient as more warrior spec-ed builds.

I don't mind inexperienced players or odd builds but be honest about it.
If you only have prophecies I'll fully understand you can't bring SF as elite. And can probably make a build with regular skills to support the team.
But a limited number of skills unlocked (ping several builds and all fail to load more then half of the skills each time) means a no-go.
You probably don't understand you profession enough to not be a burden on the run.

I've seen some people open to new ideas, but there are experiences that will simply kill me and I'll end up kicking the guy.

I took a couple friends in FoW yesterday and we brought this warrior... Lenny you'll remember this.
- Warrior comes in, pings 2 builds: a decent DSlash build and a solo W/Rt.
- We ask him to bring the DSlash build.
- Warrior pings us Heal sig, Sprint. "wat u want?"
- We ask him to go DSlash. Twice.

Everyone's ready, including the warrior, and we go in. What happens next?
- We map in FoW, first group dies fast. Second group.
- When Rastigan rushes in, we notice the warrior is AFK. "Damnit." But he's now dead.
- First tower is cleared, guy gets res'ed. Our monk is running Unyielding Aura.
- We go all the way to battlefield, guy is STILL AFK... and STILL dying. Guild had figured out why by then, but I don't wanna tell the punch yet. He's obviously leeching though.
- He gets res'ed and well, dies again.
- In the end... We got him killed, then we went suicidal.

The dumbass warrior was leeching WITH A VAMP WEAPON ON.

====

Even if you take advice, some people are still pretty dumb . The dude was obviously not a team player but in TOA, he was complying fairly easily, other than the thing with not listening at first. Inside though, just like any other leecher...

I doubt that a lot of people quit playing due to the Ursan nerf.

If many of you have looked around elite areas at all, they're all back to tank n' spank, with the exception of the occasional guild groups running more versatile builds.

PvE always has a meta that plays to the lowest common denominator. The irk of it is that most players don't want to learn.

Most players out there still believe tank n' spank is the best, that Searing Flames is a good skill in HM, and that powerhealing with 350+ heals from dwaynas kiss is the way to monk.

Most players don't want to learn. If they did they wouldn't be telling me in ToA that my paragon sucks.

Oh, and Ursan breeded enough elitism to match Heroes' Ascent. Ursan's reliance on a title progression automatically bred its own more of elitism.

Except that in Heroes' Ascent, people are trying to get their title higher, where ursan if you're title isn't maxed, you can't play at all.

Understand, I am not completely against the nerf, but also understand that it is NOT driving out the elite, it is driving out the average. Elitists Snobs love to hear that, but ultimately it is bad for overall game play.

Go to DOA, its empty, go to TOA, its all Ele and Sin.

How does this get more people into groups and stop the grind? (which is what anet said the nerf was about)

It doesn't. It made far less groups to get into and it made these runs even more meta than before.

The concept that the Ursan Nerf was supposed to be more inclusive actually made it more EXCLUSIVE.

The less people play, the worse the game gets, the less word of mouth advertising for the game, the less new players, less money for Anet, the less R&D they can put into the game... You see it all goes down hill and belive it or not, this game is driven by revenue moreso than "taking care of players". Anet already has your money, they only make money by getting new players.

If you want this evironment to be relatively empty and just play with your friends list and Guild Roster, then celebrate, because this is a step in that direction. Oh, and wait to see what happens to the market when people stop playing, even the average and low end folks.

GG! QQ!

This is exactly the type of mentality that causes such areas to be empty.

and the economy is on the rise. ecto prices (as an example) are nearly back to what they were pre-SF buff. but sure, if you want to put a prophetic ceiling on their price, be my guest. it's not like i have many of them

I'll be honest, I think I get a little wet when I kiss someone for 500+ hp. How can you not? There's more to monking, I know, but on a healing, or even WoH/hybrid, I don't think I could find too good a reason to omit D-Kiss.

As for tank n' spank, it can be overrated when using SF, but I get all warm and fuzzy on the inside when SS + Splinter Barrage blows everything up faster than a pile of melee. Everyone seems to be hating on the tank n' spank method because it has SF associated with it, which is unfortunate. I think it's one hell of a terrible idea to have a few melee classes whacking different stuff with a R/Rt in the party - they're not nearly maximizing their potential. At that point, either the frontline has to change, or the midline does. IMO you do what works best with what you have, regardless of some silly stupid label that people have put on it.

You do enjoy nitpicking my posts, don't you?

500+ heals with DKiss are hawt, but when your entire bar is devoted to that with seed of life and healing seed, with no thought of SoA or PS, then you're monking poorly.

Also, tank and spank with most pugs doesn't involve splinter weapon, seeing as they all believe it got nerfed to hell. (lol)

Why oh why do pve monks think that outhealing damage is the way to monk? I heard that [aegis] and [protective spirit] was gud

^
I suspect Aegis and PS will be making a huge comeback after Ursan nerf. I personally <3 both of them, but I think monking got dragged along with Ursan. Just like how many PUGs demanded only a certain rank of Ursan, most of them also demanded a particular monk bar (HB, with the two seeds) which favoured outhealing damage rather than preventing or negating it.

So you're pretty much getting the monk version of all the Ursan complaints. If they're smart, they'll adapt. If they can't adapt and are hellbent on sticking to the same old bar, they probably won't be playing monk for much longer.