Temple of the Elitist

i'm not denying it it is hypocritical to denounce UB while using an imbagon. and agreed, SY! needs a nerf. i simply made an imbagon so i could actively work towards keeping a party alive in the FOW, rather than waste time with incompetent tank n' spanks.

unfortunately, the three PUGS i've been with since rolling an imbagon in FOW have all failed miserably due to party formation looking like a bunch of lost bone minions, and when you aggro the entire shadow army, +100 armor only goes so far.

Hahahaha I laughed IRL at your 2nd paragraph. It's true though, even with any kind of PvE-only skill, your party is not invincible, especially with an imbagon if they're all out of range of shouts.

P.S. I made an imbagon, too . But I never hated Ursan. It made DoA pugging take less time (which, admittedly, was kinda the only reason I liked ursan).

You should know as well as I that the mitigation an Imbagon provides goes only so far.

The rest of the build has to be able to kill. An Ursan team was better because 6 Ursans had very high armor, KDs up the ass and absurd damage.

The Paragon could protect, albeit magnificently, but consider this - the rate at which Ursan could take down enemy mobs negated a need for the type of protection that Imbagon required.

The imbagon is a serious PvE abuse, I'll give you that. But it still required thought with regards to the rest of the party being successful.

If the rest of the team couldn't put forth damage, over time the party would get overwhelmed.

If Ursans aren't doing damage, then why are you running it.

As easy as it is to rightfully bash Ursan, it is similarly easy to question if the Imbagon wasn't more imbalanced.

Also, in terms of imbaness - Old Ursan elite clear times vs. 'Balanced' clear times showed a severe and marked discrepancy.

I would put this in slightly different words.
Most players don't want to learn how to most efficiently play their profession, they want to learn how to make the largest amount of cash in the least amount of time while playing with randoms (considering they are not asking for solo builds).
To put it in guild terms, most players want to have the income of a master while not learning the needed skills like an apprentice and being involved with the same group of people to learn from them.
And learning means failing. I rather have one player who fails miserably and understands why and adapts than 10 players who succeed but don't have a clue why they succeeded.


When my guild had it's PvP period there was one simple rule.
Each player was handed a build by the skilled GvG organizer, run it or don't play. Learn how it works, why it works and why it fails. Only when you fully know the build and understand the strength and weakness you are allowed to adjust while discussing the change with the builder and the other team members. Show that you understand how you can improve the build to benefit the entire team.

The players in DoA and ToA are not asking for those kinds of builds.
They most likely want the last FotM, the cookie cutter builds, the instant win builds. They don't want to fail, they will ragequit on failure.

For example, Snow Bunny talked about Melandru Dervishes in FoW earlier in this thread. If I went into FoW with their team as Mel Derv it could turn into massive failure. I know the area and foes very well but am very inexperienced as dervish. Even with the right build I would probably make silly mistakes while playing it. I'm not used to the skills and don't play melee that often.
And I doubt the team build is suited for PUG teams, it probably has a much higher risk of failure compared to tank & spank.

I think that's the bottom line for PUGs.
Let's take a FoW PUG for example. When they play tank & spank the run will take 1.5 hour and the rate of success is 80%.
Now we have an 'advanced' team build that can clear in 1 hour but has a success rate of 40%. For a PUG this means it's better to tank & spank.
However, with practice both the builds can be mastered and played with 100% sucess rate. This will take 5 runs for example.
For a guild team it's not that hard to do 5 runs and learn how to play. So the 1 hour team build would be the preferred build if they decide to do more then 5 runs. On the other hand the average PUG will last 1 run. Meaning you have to start learning and educating over again.

So in the end, the PUG player wants to learn an entirely different build than the guild player.

Yesterday was in Lion's Arch, two elementalist were asking for runs to the ToA. I ran them on the condition that they would do something nice for some random person later.

I noticed one was level 14 so asked why they wanted to go to toa. There answer was they wanted to Terra Tank for the speed clears. When I asked if they had ascended none of them knew what I was talking about, had to ask them if they had done Naphue Quarter missions and both responded no. I then had to explain to them that they could not go into FoW or UW until they did that mission.

Most don’t want to spend the time to prepare (equipment, extra attributes, ascend, etc…) they just want to jump into the most profitable area and start making gold. I noticed the same thing with CoF, players show up to start running but they don’t have the right equipment, they don’t have the attribute points, they have not practiced with the build ever before, and they immediately want to start spamming, “Running CoF HM 2k murk (bring heals and LoD”

This type of attitude hurts other people and the sad part there is no way to tell if the person that just joined your pug has done the foot worked needed to be in that area.

Because of ability to zerg in Ursan, it is true that damage mitigation is not as required, and I know that. But whether you are a good team that chooses to run balanced (with an imbagon), or a good/mediocre/bad team tht chooses to run Ursan, it's still kinda cheating either way, isn't it? On top of that, the really bad zerging Ursans can't kill stuff and still fail. Crazy as it might be to say this, but Ursan isn't idiot-proof.

We also both know that Imbagons and Ursans do different things for the party - their role is fundamentally different, which is why I prefer to not compare them other than make the general statement of them being imbalanced. Ursan is damage with some passive defense, and Imbagon is the flip side.

It sounded a little bit like you're saying running balanced (+imba) is a more thoughtful and challenging way of playing, and to some extent I agree. But I don't think it actually encourages better play. When there's an imbagon in the team, I can blissfully stand in a firestorm, unsteady ground, and get beat on with swords/bows/spears/wands, and so can the rest of my team. We will lose approximately 1/4 of our health in the duration of the battle. In Ursan, if I and the other 4-5 ursans did that, we'd have about a 50/50 chance of being dead, depending on who the monks are.

In conclusion, I think I choose to say this:
I believe Ursan and Imbagon are equally imbalanced in their own right, but due to the nature of the prejudice held against paragons, and the lack of understanding of physical damage, they are not seen as much of a threat to the cause of an "unintelligent homogenous PuG environment."

Maybe the game is not for you and your attitude. Did someone remove your brain?

It is called "Guild Wars" because in the ancient time of its lore, there were Guild wars, what is left of those now are the GvG skirmishes. Get your facts as straight as the plank in front of your head.

Then how did you get into one?

THIS IS A GAME! You can not make any assumptions on the success of people by their opinion towards certain areas in a game. And yes, I think that "elite" areas, especially in NM, should be available for everyone that finished the campaign, because I am a nice person, that doesn´t get an erection from imaginary loot or an imaginary success in a game. You obviously take this GAME way to serious. I pity you. Don´t bother to answer, you are on ignore now.

That's the crux of the argument, really.

Balanced teams, in a game sense, are never really overpowered. A team that's experienced and good will run balanced and be able to tackle anything they face.

A gimmick won't be able to cope with everything but will be good enough to beat stale PvE AI and bad players.

A bad pug can't run a balanced team, even with a good imbagon and monk. The good organized guild team will run a balanced team with much better results, and probably better results then the bad pug running the easy gimmick. Now you have a good team running the gimmick, which will produce superior results then if they had run balanced.

You your self might want to form your own group in ToA using the party window andcheck up on builds and hp.It would seem to me that todays pugs need a good guild themselves.

Well guys it's the DoA, Domain of Anguish. What can you expect? Happy Days? Then why did Anet name it DoA? If it's the domain of Anguish, of course people are gonna anguish there, otherwise the place will lose it's meaning.

A guild is a type of group and not the end all be all. A friends list can, and has for quite a few people, work better than any guild. I'd say that negating someone's opinions of PUGs simply because he isn't in a guild is rather illogical.

I don't see anyone from the "Ho Ho, you don't have a guild, loser!" group offering him an invite in to their's. The same old GWG nonsense.

100% Nonsense.
To go to DoA - completing Nightfall is required.
FoW/UW - Ascension is required.
Nothing about being in guild or even big guild, so if the devs were so into GUILDS they could easily put another rquirement for elite areas - being in big guild, and personally i would be ok with that, simply becasue i would know where i stand. Now because finding a group in elite areas is based on ridiculous concepts answering to this problem with "Find a decent guild" is plain retarded.

Ding ding ding. Last time I pugged was with a single guy. His builds were decent and he was a W/P with DS spammer. But he totally didn't know how to play in a team... And the pug before that was group of 7 idiots that almost wiped at the beginning of Abaddon's Mouth mission. And before that FoW group, mixed ursans with nukers. And when I say nukers, I mean one E/Mo without attune and A/E nuker using +30/-2 set. One person left after 5 minutes, then we failed. I was monking, but it's hard to monk idiots running away from me on 25% health.

What's worse, all of those pugs were on NM. Can't imagine how would it be on HM...

There are two kinds of 'guildless' players.
The first are the ones without a guild (tag).
The second are the players who have a guild but their guild does not support a certain type of gameplay.

If you want to be in a certain type of guild search for them.
You can find some of them here on guru while others just recruit ingame.
And some of those do it standing in outposts while others only recruit players they played with.
From what I've experienced one of the more important things to do is being visible (in a positive way). And try to play with others as much as possible even if that means waiting for a team to form for a while.

You mentioned friends lists and I think that's the most valuable tool for any 'guildless' player. And even for players who are in guilds that suit their needs, I sometimes like hanging out with people who I've played with in the past.
Still, you have to get on that list. And stay on it.
Meaning you have to play with me at least once and stand out in that positive way.

Would I invite the 'guildless loser'?
It depends. We have certain 'requirements'. Just to make sure someone fits in the guild and does not feel excluded. And will not be a burden to the rest of us.
But I've made exceptions for players who I think have the right mindset and attitude and the will to improve the parts where they don't meet the requirements.

Difference between Guilds and Pugs

Guilds are a GROUP of asshats

Pugs are a random GROUP of asshats

lol not much difference between the two really. Just that guilds look DOWN on pugs.

The real problem in this game and most others is just like in the real world, people get behind religions (guilds) and social classes (elitism) and turn their noses up at any others that aren't a part or don't conform to THEIR society and customs.

Playing in a guild is really no better than playing in a pug, they still fail from time to time even playing with the same people over n over and day after day. I've played in both societies and group types and I've had just as much success in pugs as I've had in the several guilds I tried out. Main thing is you really don't have to join a guild to get in a group of SKILLED players, it's just that the elitism of guild members dictates that ALL puggers suck which they don't and in many cases are actually better players than a lot of guild groups out there.

either you have had bad experiences in guilds, made bad choices of what guilds to join or where the one with the the guilds resident "asshat" yourself.

I have been in a total of 3 guilds, all where active, friendly, skilled players. the first disbanded after the leader left, remaining members formed the 2nd guild which was led by myself until members left for uni etc. Now i am in TAM.

It wasn't hard for me to find a new guild that has ideals, playstyles and interests simmilar to my own. I did so within 3 days of deciding to disband my old guild.

Yes, people who don't even do most basic preparations are quite a pug-bane.

Bad thing is, it is kinda tolerated. When people ping build, very few notice that, i.e., monk runs 12/11 or even 12/10 or 11/11 spreads because they never bothered to do those super easy quests. (which is incedibly funny because when you do 11/10/10 hybrid you get all the "noob" grief). And if they notice they just don't care, suggesting replacement of such person is greeted with wtf.

Failing with friends and failing with random people isn't the same thing in terms of attitude.

A PUG will most likely disband after one or two tries at the same thing. They don't wanna hear things like "setup change" or "less aggro". You can bet people will be angry at whoever caused the party wipe, and will blame someone from the party, usually the monk for "not healing them" or the "Leeroy" warrior... even if they're not even remotely at fault.

If my guild fails at something, we're gonna laugh at it, make fools outta ourselves and go back in again with changes - unless we're short on time or people want to move on to something else. I rarely see us get angry at failing, unless it's taken hours to set up, like The Deep or Urgoz.

The difference of attitude towards failing is what makes a big difference with PUGs.

Wasn't expecting different results from doing the same thing the definition of insanity, not stupidity?

I'll put this short.

Don't judge everything by small encounters.

You may as well call everyone in the world an "asshat" with that attitude, yet there are still people who are kind, willing to help, have skill in what they're doing and give a shit.

^

..................

If they want to join a guild, why don't they exercise some initiative?

God good.

But that means you have to get off your arse and do yourself a favour!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Zomg doing something? In Guild Wars? EFFORTZ?! BLASPHEMY!! LET'S SACRIFICE HIM TO OUR GOOOOOOD

...What, they did it in 30's and it was okay.

Well, techincally, its is not that easy.

You have to find people who are compatible with your playstyle, your personality and with similar goals.

On top of that, they shouldnt be assholes which have pug-mentality as far as on what good builds are and on dealing wilth losses.

Then you want guild without guild/alliance drama and politics. No cliques, no gumpy sexualy frustrated 30 year olds who are pissed at everything, no kiddies doing "kthxbai" thing.

Then they probably should be able to actually "win pve" while not being narrowminded vets.

If you manage to join such guild you have to build trust with those people and actually play together to be able to coordinate instead of H/Hing everything like you are used to. Your "meh, i just wont log in for 1 month" will have consequences other than new mini on mule when you come back. You probalby will spend half your time helping guildies with stuff you did 100s of times already isntead of grinding your titles or something.

Getting good guild requires some investment. Time. Patience. Not being cretin. You are talking to pleple woh want to winnorz DOAzors nowazors.

To be quite honest, Zwei, I often find it easy to gain allies. I admit that I was a bit over the top while saying that.

Either way, effort should be required in everything you do. The forum on Guild Wars Guru for recruiting is really, as far as I know the best place to find a guild.

Alot of the time though, you just grow to be friendly with certain people.

The ursan nerf isn't even that bad...also some guilds won't really help even if you ask for some...I've been in those situations kinda sux. But the nerf IMO is an improvement...better to see Terras and permas than HB and Ursan for some reason lol.

well i managed to do it easily enough. I even turned down 14 guild invites. Once i joined i just jumped right in and teamed up for anything that i was interested in. That builds trust better than anything while also helping you progress with your in game goals.

Finding a siutable guild really is that easy. It's just most people are lazy. They either accept the first invite they get or simply turn to kamadan for a guild.
The best way is to add a post here on guru, check out a few guild recruiting messages here on guru or on the official wiki, check with guilds of people on your friends list then inquire with those guilds and actually play with them before joining.

I have to disagree entirely. Maybe it's because I was so fortunate in my early days of Guild Wars that I'm struggling to find "that guild." I've been there, done all that, everything you think should find me the right guild, and I'm tellin' ya, I just haven't found it yet. I've found good guilds, but not the ones I'm looking for. Sometimes you just know what you're looking for, and you still can't find it. Some people probably are lazy, or complacent, but some also aren't.

Join a guild with snow bunny


...then you'll notice pugs arent so bad :P

pugs are bad if and only if the people made up the pug is bad.

Pfft Kate, you know you love me.

Well, i dont really know much about shopping for good guilds as i stayed in my first guild for 2 years (evolved from thk pug which really clicked together :-) and i am still in my seccond.

But i have seen enough people who joined us and just didn't fit in with us for various reasons.

It isn't the guild's job to help you whenever you cry about it. Other people want to play the game and have fun, not babysit other players.

Which of these would you be more likely to answer?

1) OMG guyz I need a help with Thunderhead Keep, it's soooooo hard. If you don't help me, you're an elitist!!!!!!1111

2)Hey, anyone up for THK HM? I have cookies.

Player 1 is clearly an asshole, and I'll pretend to be afk. Player 2 is probably also an asshole, but at least he's a fun one who won't be completely useless.

agreed

people should group with the intention of wanting to play together
not because they want/need sumptin from u

I feel offended. We were wiped only 3 times, thank you very much ;[

QFT. But if you don't like someone after 30 minutes, you won't like him after 2 weeks.

Although d-shotting knocked down target befriends you with anyone...

Actually some of my friends on GW are people who I found utterly annoying at first. Then we just randomly chatted.

I bet that a lot of the people who are playing with me today couldn't stand me at first either.

Yeah you got me I wuv you guys

Lol'd

12char

i think when somebody doesnt want to accept somebody because of low rank or idk what we should start a thread