How GW has become a grind fest...

I wholeheartedly agree with what you said, and I already realized all this more than a year ago. Guild Wars stopped being a very good game for me at the time purple items became worthless (among many other things), and even less when all those stupid titles were introduced. I pretty much stopped playing this mediocre game right there and then. But hey, it's FREE to play! So I check in every now and then to check for new updates, and grind an occasional title on an odd weekend. I don't do it because I really NEED this stuff, but simply because I can, and because I don't feel like doing anything else during those particular times. I do this CONSCIOUSLY, realizing I can STOP at any time!

I used to be an avid player trying to "pimp" every one of my characters in every way possible, but now I don't give a damn. I pretty much focused on my Ritualist, and I'm VERY SLOWLY getting him to the top. I no longer care how fast that will happen. It doesn't even matter for me if it will happen at all. I don't care if I will get Guild Wars 2, and if I'll have enough "leetness" on my character to get whatever bonuses GW will have to offer. I only play for some occasional "low grade" fun and that's basically it.

On the other hand, let's think about all this from another perspective:

1)Do we even have to play this game? NO. We play it only because we choose to, and it's important to understand that. At any time we have a choice to stop playing this game and show the devs that we are not willing to put up with mediocrity. But the game is FREE to play, and many play it for this reason alone. This brings us to #2.

2)Since the game is FREE to play, there's only so much the devs are willing to do with it. After all, why bother, if they already have a devoted community of players who play just because the game is FREE to play, and because it's "good enough" for them?

3)Because the devs are not willing to make this game into something more than it already is, they need a way to keep those who play from leaving... The titles are a great idea for that purpose! I used to find myself grinding for the titles not because I really needed that, but simply because I felt like I MUST. Almost like it felt to me like my achievement in the game means something. Newsflash! IT DOESN'T. I was still a loser in RL. A loser with FoW armor, KoBD, and all that other "leet" garbage.

So let's ask ourselves this:

What the FUNK do we want from Anet? They are NOT making us play. It is we who give in into our addiction, and keep asking more and more from Anet. Well the truth is they don't owe us NOTHING! They didn't make us buy their game! You don't like the road GW is heading down? QUIT! STOP! Do something else. Get a job(if you don't have one), and play EVE or WoW...(they are so much better) Or don't play at all! You have a choice. It's important to keep that in mind at all times.

Thanx for reading.

The conclusions I draw from the opposed positions follow:

The Opposed feel:

1. No dedication to the game, gaming, or its completion,
2. Playing is free so what do you expect,
3. Anyone who wants to see the game become better is just a trouble maker who should STFU.
4. Playing is fun as long as you disregard the developed objectives,
5. Grind has the same meaning as reasonable effort,

My response:

1. I learned a long time ago in the military that those who care complain. Those who do not care don't. When those who care quit complaining they are ready either to give up or take over. In both these cases, the profit margin for a company is in danger.

2. While playing may be free in technicality, the incentive is to obtain money. The first method of doing so was crafty, put out a game with 6 classes and 4 slots. Then they will have to inflate our sales numbers and success by purchasing multiple accounts. Maintain woefully inadequate storage so they will have to keep mules on each account and buy even more accounts. Then when we have milked that area as much as we feel possible add more things to purchase in the on-game store. Have I been aware of these effects, yes. I have also been dedicated enough to what GW is supposed to be to provide them about $14.25 to 14.50/month in purchases. (I am close to $500.00 invested in 34 months and currently need a 3rd account to help me hold a friends guild (while he and his wife are in Iraq) and work in both my Kurzick and Luxon guilds.) The need for massive amounts of open skills to be competitive or useful, etc. has created sufficient incentive to equal a monthly pay to play game.

3. This attitude of capitulation to those things that are wrong or insufficient is common place enough. I run into it regularly as a personal political activist as well. Those who oppose any improvement are to me as equally lost as those who demand change for change's sake without reason. There is no rational response either will understand.

4. This personality profile matches a fair percentage of the general population and I do not disregard it in economic terms. Many play a game or purchase an article of clothing strictly on a touchy-feely feel good basis - with no regard for standard goals. The action itself is a ritual in their life. The larger group of US citizens are what many term Bean Counters and Competitives. For these a goal-less environment is meaningless.

5. There cannot be achievement without effort. The effort does not by itself make the achievement worthwhile - that is a false association. The effort and the achievement are seperate goals. They merely occur in linear transition. Just as the ritualistic person above enjoys the means to the goal but does not care if they ever achieve it there are innovators who want the goal and find the means totally meaningless. That being said, grind is to become crushed, pulverised, or powdered by friction. It is by nature - excessive or extreme. Reasonable effort is exertion which is not excessive or extreme. Four Thousand Five Hundred hours merely to acquire the financial side of the HoM, not including the massive amounts of hours for other titles is Grind - extreme. The only way to change this is to make the titles easier to achieve by increasing rewards for the exertion taken to achieve them.

Acually, to complete the HoM you just need to get GWAMM and get one statue shown.

That is...
- 30 titles
- 5 heroes/pets
- 20 miniatures
- 5 armors.
- 10 weapons. (Or was it 11...?)

I have high hopes in the HoM update to see what are they going to do...

The game is as casual/grindy as you allow it to be

If you believe the following is true then yes GW is a grindfest and it's all Anets fault.

omg a hall of monuments I have to fill it otherwise Im a worthless person and people in gw2 will think i'm a noob.

omg 15k elite armour I have to have every set for all my characters

omg titles I have to have every title for every character

Of course deep down its at the back of your mind that when gw2 comes out there really will be something amazing for the character that's got everything maxed out.

It follows then that if you can do all of that on 20 characters that will be so amazing and you will make a huge killing in gw2

That is the real reason for 90% of the whines about the grind and the reason behind the call for titles to be account based.

I'm dedicated to my wife. I'm dedicated to my family. This is a game - for fun in your free time.

Exactly, I fail to see the actually meaning or complaint from the OP. GW pretty much requires nill(grinding) in order to play throughout the whole game compared to many other games of the same nature. GW grind has no effect on getting armor required to be successful in PVE and pretty much low effort regarding PvP.

I'm a bit torn here.

See, I first started playing guildwars, and was fascinated simply by the novelty of prophecies. slowly that began to fade, and i focused in on the storyline. Played the game, beat the game. Had alot of fun. Now, i can't do prophecies quests even if it is for a title. Its to repetitive and boring. Thats the downside of multiple characters. The same holds true for Factions, Nightfall, and EotN.

Once you reach a certain point in the game, you're just repeating your old moves. So, people turn to titles as something to do. Its a good thing, it keeps you interested. This brings me to a problem however.

Many titles are boring to farm, just as parts of the game are boring to replay. However, some HoM stuff is really expensive. Destroyer weaps are loads of diamonds and onyx. Elite sets of armor, (which admittedly i have) can put a huge damper in peoples wallets.

This wouldnt normally be such a problem if it weren't for the economy. Today, ecto's are worth about 4k if you can find a buyer. The price of nearly everything is down the drain due to overfarming (with the exception of money sinks like elite armor) More and more profitable farming has been nerfed, and so people have to rely on quests and grinding (different from farming, ill explain) for money. Yes you can buy eotn prestige armor, but that requires more grinding for the title instead of for the money.

Grinding != Farming. Farming is the vanquishing of an enemy or group of enemies for a profit. Grinding is simply for the title and has very little actual profit. Farming boosted the economy, ectos were aplenty, greens were valuable. Anet replace farming with grinding, and threw a bunch of new greens into the game. Now theyre not worth hardly anything (if they drop) and people have to find newer, more monotonous ways to make money.

Pvp is really the only solution. if you have the dedication to get lots of balth faction, you can sell z keys for about 5k, but it takes alot of patience with arena fights or HA.

Really, unless you have a group of friends or guild members to keep your interest and do stuff with, the game becomes mindless and weak.

In conclusion: At a certain point, grinding becomes the only viable option of interest in the game aside from pvp, and due to a series of nerfs, the quality of the game has plummeted drastically. Find some good friends or get out. (unless you have a lot of time and patience)

Well, to respond to this: I've played Guild Wars for about 7 months now. I'm someone you'd consider a casual player. Guess what: I never once farmed for gold items/money/ecto/etc and didn't ever grind for levels, titles or whatever. The only repetitive thing I did ingame was selling some stuff I got from dungeons and monsters. Yet I have all the money I need right now (and probably ever will need for my interests), in addition to a set of elite armor and fancy weapons of my chioce. As others have said before me, if you're planning to max your titles, there's no way you will aviod grinding (obviously). And that's alright, everyone has different interests in a game. Some like pvp, some like pve. I'm more of a pvp guy, so titles don't mean anything to me.
So to sum this up, yes GW does contain some grind, but ONLY if you want it to. It's entirely up to you. And this is where the REAL difference lies between GW and other MMOs. In GW, grind is totally voluntary, whereas other MMOs FORCE you to grind. Ever played RF Online, or heck, even WoW? Try that, and then compare the time you need to spend to get to the max level (and high stat equipment) with that of Guld Wars.

Simple example: in other MMOs, if you want to go to another area or want to pvp, you need to increase your level. That usually takes a lot of time, and let's face it, grinding to do. Do the repetitive kill 20 of this, slaughter 30 of that quests, and killing wolves or whatever to go from level x to level x+1. That's what real grind is. It has nothing to do with the so called game campaign or story. You just kill to level up. And that's mandatory, even if you just want to pvp, and care nothing about the pve aspects of the game, as a higher level player will just wipe the floor with you in pvp, so you need to do what they do: increase your level to the max, get the most über magic weapon/the fanciest c.o.c.k. ring of glory to match theirs.

Then, there's Guild Wars.
You can easily get to the max level if you complete the campaign. I know I did. No grinding for levels or anything like that. I just did the missions and some occasional quests (only those that gave skill unlocks as a reward). Weapons that have max damage/mods are also easy to come by.
Guild Wars is all about choice:
You're only interested in Pvp? Fine, you can create a pvp only char and have access to all the arenas and matches instantly. Sure, you won't have fancy armor and all that, but you won't have a handicap just because you refuse to play the game 24/7.
You're interested in pve or even don't mind a bit of grinding? Sure, create a pve char, and you can have all the fun you want.
Entirely up to you. And that's what's the most appealing thing about this game is: unlike the "classic" MMOs, it won't punish you if you refuse to give up your whole social life to play it, or just refuse to play some part of it.

And that's why I will buy GW2, and won't touch an MMO like WoW ever again.

While you arn't forced to grind for titles, keep this in mind:

The player with more PvE skills will always be superior to the one without any.

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

The game is hardly a grindfest. I want to get this very simple point to register with the OP.
If its not mandatory its not grind.

True but tempered by the fact that maxed titles don't provide much increased benefit over a modest titles (ie those achieved without grinding).

For example my E/N with maxed Asuran, Deldrimor and Sunspear does 90 damage with Necrosis, 80 damage with Light of Deldrimor and maximum 80 damage with Pain Inverter. Lots of grind, including HM.

My A/N who has gotten lower ranks of these titles through normal gameplay with no grinding does 80 with Necrosis, 75 with LoD, and still does max 80 with Pain Inverter. No grinding, NM only

It is true that the former character does slightly more damage, and in that way is "superior", but not by much.

And of course it still only applies to pve. Those skills (LoD, Pain Inverter) have no use in pvp.

Personally I think the grinding is an embarrassing feature of online gaming. One of my guildies once spent 5 hours FFFing, which I thought was insane. If a non-gamer was standing there watching them. they would see a person sitting at a computer, repetitively doing the same thing over and over for 5 hours!!

I suppose that may be a normal aspect of online gaming but it pretty much made me decide not to mention that I play online games or to recommend them.

By the logic of the OP and many others who say "grind is required" the entire point of GW 1 is to get stuff for GW 2, whose entire point is to get stuff for GW 3... etc etc etc.


You play games to play them. Period.
Yes, there is grind in GW, but its not mandatory. You only do it if you enjoy it. If not, why are you doing it (epeen?)?

Becoming mandatory can occur with written rules and procedures. What you fail to intuit is that GW has built grind in as a procedural construct. Once you have done each quest and mission, there is no reason to log in. To offset this the game incorporated additional goals, many of which make game play easier through special skills. This procedural inclusion made grind mandatory for character development. The inclusion of the HoM made grind mandatory for games completion. Yes, you do have the option of turning off your PC and going to watch ballet or football. In that sense grind is not mandatory. If you play the game grind becomes mandatory. The problem is Grind should never be mistaken for reasonable effort. It is acceptable to require reasonable effort for closure. It is not acceptable to require 20 to 30 years of effort to finish the game. That is Not reasonable effort - that is Grind! That is unacceptable.

Ok we get it, even if it is optional after you do everything you have to grind to keep doing something, I dont really believe this, but for the sake of my arguement we will say this is true. If you don;t like it and fell there is nothing else to do, stop playing, simple as that. You feel you have completed all the game that you want to good, just log off. Completely forever. Grind and in your arguement, the whole game, is optional. I do not see where this is going.

Question: If you are dedicated to Guild Wars and the existence of the HOM compels you to fill it, does the existence of a first place spot on the GvG ladder compel you to attain that goal as well? Why or why not? Can the game be 'completed' without it? Can one be dedicated to GW without attaining the highest level of PvP?

Less than that, taking your characters' birthday presents into account.

It's a little less than that, since you don't need the headgear...

And Fellowship can be maxed for free. Phoenix+Spider+Moa+generic pet statue (God how I hate that thing, but I digress)+M.O.X.=full monument.

There are only two instances of grind inserted into this game to progress. In the factions campaign you must gain 10k alliance faction to proceed into the next mission and in the nightfall campaign you must get 2500 sunspear points to progress though the primary quests if you are not a foreign character. Neither of these were listed in your list of so called grind and both can be achieved without extra effort by doing the storyline quests.

Exactly the object of pve is to complete the missions and quests in a given campaign. Then you are done. No grind there, unless you consider playing the game a grind in which case you need to find another game which you actually enjoy.

Not true. The game incorporated titles as recognition of activities the players were already doing such as running chests, doing the bonus/masters on missions, collecting skills, and exploring to name a few. Titles are recognitions of play styles not goals within themselves.

The pve skills are quest rewards easily obtainable by following the storyline, if you want to grind the skills to a high level this again is optional, but is not necessary to complete the missions and quests. Also they level to a sufficient usable potency just by following the storyline or grabbing a bounty while following said storyline.


No your need to keep up with the Joneses has made it seem mandatory in your mind. This is a psychological flaw in your reasoning process which dictates that you are taking the game way to seriously and need a break.
Mandatory is defined as whats necessary to complete the storyline, not whats necessary to have the uber leet toon in your opinion.

No, the HoM is merely a way to transfer some achievements over to the upcoming sequel since there is no direct character transfer. There is nothing mandatory about filling the HoM.

I don't see how people playing a game they don't have to pay any more for makes money for ANet.

In terms of grind and HoM they are playing to attain rewards and content for GW2.

So what you're trying to say is that Guild Wars needs to keep selling copies of itself, and then sell a lot of copies of the sequel.

Nowhere in this is the necessity for grind or bad gameplay.

You could make a case for grind being the easiest (thus cheapest) way to keep players paying attention to Guild Wars, but that's pretty speculative.

It's either integration of grind in conjunction with motivation to do it, stagnation or new content.

Given that Anet long ago said EotN was the last substantial content release it seems logical grind would be the next step to keep players logging on outside the realms of just playing for enjoyment.HoM was an obvious grind reward system from the outset.

The other options are to either leave it as is or close down the servers.Imagine the community reaction and flow on effect that would have.

To me it's a simple comparison of the non-subscription vs subscription based MMO business models with people simply confusing the two and what happens when the former stops releasing content while creating false expectations and demands of what they are entitled to.

Rather than realize GW is pretty much at an end and move on it's easier to complain about the manner in which Anet have decided to slowly bring a close to the game.

There is no regular new content which equates to a shelf life yet people can't seem to grasp that this has lead to Anet introducing motivation and reward to repeat content, all be it at a "harder" level or to attain items specifically for HoM rewards.

Complaining about the obvious substitution of grind reward in place of new content in a non-subscription MMO that has clearly stated "that's it" for substantial content releases just makes no sense to me although it's a blatantly obvious and expected repercussion.

I hate grind as much as the next guy, I don't, but the main problem imho is that people simply won't walk away from the game as opposed to stay and complain over such an obvious and logical conclusion.

All opinions and arguments for and against have been stated in a thousand threads hence I'll leave mine at that.

Good luck to you.

This is a very simple issue, really. As long as you put objective in games, people will pursue them.

Now guild wars has objectives like:
- http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Drunkard

Disregarding the time needed to acquire the alcohol....

That is 6 days 22 hours and 40 minutes of clicking the mouse button once at every minute. Nothing more. Just sit there, wait the minute to go by and click the mouse again.

No game I have ever *heard* of has built in the tool for such a grind. It does not matter if it is optional or not, as long as it is built in, people will get trapped into it. Not all people are built in with the strength to resist the temptation to achieve objectives of the game they are playing that they haven't yet achieved.

To be honest this would be one reason I would not like my kid (if I had one) to play this game.

However it saddens me a lot when I see a toon go by with that maxed title on. I always think: "poor guy, what did ANet do to his life?".

I've gotta give it to ArenaNet. I think they win the "grind of the century academy award" with this.

But wait, there is even a better one and more commonly pursued than that! It is called FFF (fast faction farming). If it is anything else but fast. So players are supposed to max a title by repeating a quest approximately 25k times. Each such "run" would take about 2 minutes.

And the run goes like:
- flag hero 1 at precise point 1, hero 2 at precise point 2, hero 3 at precise point 3
- press 1,2,3 then wait x seconds then press 4,5,6
- repeat until done
Or so. You can read more on the official wiki pages, it's all documented there.

Now if there is anything more saddening than a drunkard title maxed, than this might be it. I mean this reduces one persons mind to the state of a robot that repeats for thousands of times the same task (pressing the same keys in the same sequence at same time intervals).

You can't seriously believe that this would not take its toll on the mind health of the person getting trapped into it. And this is why I would be seriously concerned if my kid would play this game.

I know better than that and can stay away from such "temptations", but not everybody realizes what they're getting into and what effects that has on you. And people are competitive, seeing someone with a max drunkard title might tempt you to equal him. And once people start on that path they don't really stop because "it isn't much more to go and i've got this far!".

It's your choice to just sit there. Ever heard of multitasking? I drank while vanquishing (and since I used Spiked Eggnog it was one click every three minutes - I even programmed a beeper applet to remind me when it was time to quaff another nog) and got Drunkard maxed at the same time as Legendary Vanquisher. And it was fun.

So how's your Hero title coming along? Or Gladiator or Champion? Gotta max them all, oh yeah ...

The gist of the entire thread is that some people blame ANet for their own psychological problems. If you cannot resist doing something optional that you dislike it's time to seek professional help.

Oh fun fun... you need to play a game with a timer now! Awesome indeed.

I think ArenaNet should get into the business of selling these timers as well.

Had a good laugh. Yes I guess that would be one good use of the grinds in GW. As a psychological test tool.

On a more serious note, it is debatable if "such" problems are "identifiable" by GW or they are caused by it. Teens learn everything, including addictions. I don't think you get born with an addiction, you develop one. But I'm not a specialist in the area so....

Ever tried such fun grinding as fishing in WoW? Hours upon hour just to gain a level, not a title, a level.

So, please, stop embarrassing yourself by pretending GW invented grind or is an example of the worst type of grind, there's a lot worse out there.

All GW grind is optional and its there because before we had grind this forum was filled daily with threads QQ'ing that players finished the game and had nothing left to do. You asked for it, you got it, but at least you can partake or not partake in it, unlike other MMO's where its required.

The timer was strictly not needed, it just made the drinking more economical (no booze wasted by drinking too early and thus beyond the cap, no time wasted by drinking too late and thus losing the buzz). The main point that seems to escape you is that I maxed the title - casually and without grind - while doing something fun. Since I got the title and had fun as well it looks like I win on both accounts

I did exactly the same, those timers are small .exe programs you can find everywhere in the web, and they allow you to drink while playing the game instead of staying in GH or anywhere else doing nothing.

The point that seems to escape you is that I don't find having a buzzer to ring me every 3 mins fun but rather stressful, as I don't find killing each and every foe possible in HM fun. Both drunkard and vanquisher are grinds.

And the main point that you are missing that you did that because there was nothing else really interesting to do, had there be you wouldn't go into killing just everybody on all maps while drinking every 3 mins at the reminder of a buzz. Would you have done that a new GW chapter was available?

Don't think so...

I did. I was happily wallhugging and killing every monster I could find during the Prophecies days. I would only venture beyond the Old Ascalon area after I'd cleared all of the map, done all quests, gotten all skills. So I voluntarily did this, only stalling my progress in the story. And I sure had fun while doing it.

More, when Factions launched, it gave me a title for it. Seeing I needed to clear another 2% of the map only made go try and find those last areas.

When HM launched, it gave me a title for stuff I already was doing: killing every monster in the area.

Sure, when Factions or Nightfall launched, I played that Campaign. But after I finished the story, I took up Prophecies again to vanquish/wallhug. After that the same with other campaigns.

It just the way I play games, or better, this game. I don't see vanquishing as grinding, I don't see drunkard as grinding. But hey, that's my opinion.

Just to make it obvious if it isn't already:

I don't mind other people grinding, to each his own.

I mind that the game has turned into a creepy "fill your HoM" rush, which as the OP mentioned is a horrible and daunting task.

I mind that ANet wants to "reward" long time players of the game by making them grind to fill a HoM instead of just giving you something cool cause you have a 2 years old account and finished all 3 campaigns or something.

I mind that ANet envisions more GW2 rewards for grinders (max 30 titles and so) than for people that have 3+ years old accounts with them that don't care about grinding.

And most of all I mind that all outpost are deserted and I can never find a party do play with, because all PvE-ers are grinding right now. Vanquishing with H/H somewhere, drinking and so. Playing with others just for fun it's not an option anymore.

Yeah... that's my problem with grinds. But who cares?

Then do something else and let those who find it fun do as they well please. Do you know the meaning of the word 'optional'?

Only if you make one out of them. Besides, you are only killing each monster once so it doesn't meet the repeating requirement unless you count all fighting as grind "oh boy I used a skill, if I'll ever have to use the same skill again it will be grind!". The problem is with you, not with the game itself.

So here's the real reason ... you want ANet to remove content from the game to force people to do what you find fun so that you get company because it's so wrong that people have fun together when they do something that you don't find fun.

Some of us really don't deserve a better game, really.

Say what. To make it more fun for you, ANet should add 1000 more random generated areas with random monsters that you can vanq. That would make you happy for another more year wouldn't it?

Anyway I had fun with the last update: cool quests not making me bang my head against the wall because of their diffficulty but rather made me smile when I saw myself disguised as an Am Fah. And all the golems in the outposts are just hilarious. And people are having fun with that. Simple pure stupid fun.

And that was the first time I had fun in gw in ages. Since gwen I think.

So why have you been playing then if you didn't have fun while playing?

Fun is different for everyone and so is grind. I like vanquishing and I like doing quests. However If I had to choose I would say vanquishing is more fun than for example farming. In general quests have repeatable patterns: go there kill that, go there bring that, survive X waves of enemies and so on with a story around it. Golem quests were very nicely done but most of them arent. For some of us doing quests can be considered grind as well. Vanquishing is exciting for me because of randomness of spawns and drops. I am always for a new content in the game and new areas to explore and I will try to do every single new quest but I after that I will keep vanquishing because that gives me the most fun in GW. Much more than pvp.

Hoping that the online game i like most would get back on track. However all my friends have moved on now... and probably i should do so too.

I guess I'm just giving feedback on this forum somehow thinking that this would matter. But then again, I think that is not realistic.

So what went wrong with this game? I was intrigued by Anet's business model: one new campaign every 6 months. It would give you plenty of time to play one campaign to it's fullest, and after 6 months you would get a brand new adventure.

However, after Nightfall it became apparent Anet wanted to take GW to a direction they weren't able to with their former business model. 2 new professions every 6 months, hundreds of skills added... It just didn't work. So Anet abandoned their model, and introduced many more content of the category 'grind'. Be it titles, PvE-skills or anyother PvE-wise. All to keep us busy playing their game, without having to come up with a new Campaign.

In the meantime, Anet is working on GW2. They stopped producing stuff for GW1, so I'd say the game won't ever be like the game we bought 3 years ago. Anet can't revert their decisions without causing a giant uproar.

So what's left? Playing GW1, hoping Anet will give us back our pre-Nightfall game, or playing GW1 however you want and enjoy it.

Or thirdly, just stop playing, and see what the future will bring us... GW2 is still far off, but there's no need to keep playing GW1 if it gets boring/annoying. I know I did. I severely cut down on my playing time. Only logging in once every few days. Only to do the stuff I really enjoy. And it makes the game better, it really does.