How GW has become a grind fest...

I agree with all your points. I am down to logging in only once a week or so as well.

Actually, the key to get drunkard is to multi task. When you are spamming selling stuff in Kamadon, drink ale. When you are sitting in your guild hall forming a party for a dungeon run for 8-10 miniutes, drink ale. Heck, I've starting drinking 1 firewater every time I do a Raptor farm (since one run takes ~3 minutes if I intentionally use a slower build and ID all my items in the zone).

Really, the key to drunkard is just to use all your "dead time" in guild wars drinking. You'd be surprised how quickly it adds up.


PS. How can they be rewarding players grind in GW2 when you don't even know what the rewards in GW2 will be? If the rewards are completely meaningless/lame/cosmetic, it won't matter at all.

Devs said that they are aware that eotn is a grind game, and it was made for people that enjoy this type of play.
But didn't they say it BEFORE its release..

Now that's some epic piece of advice!!

The problem is that, even three years in, they don't know what they want the game to be. It is easy to make the argument that they have completely abandoned the concept of skill over time, though they wouldn't admit it. I think thats the very reason they won't dare release any more information about what the HoM will do untill they at least have a few GW2 preorders in. If they announce small rewards, they'll likely piss off the poor fools who actually spent the insane effort of grinding all this crap. If they announce big rewards, they'll prove what a farce their intent of a game about skill rather than time played has become and alienate other players who simply don't want that sort of grind.

So HoM is hard to fill for casual players(I'd consider myself one...30 months less than 600 hours) but that's the way it should be...obviously I'm not elitist but I know what I'm doing when I play and I can beat campaigns no problem...no need to QQ about how it's hard to fill, people should be able to have a choice in what kind of MMO they play.

I dont mean to pick apart your post, but wouldn't Legendary Master of the North be (5). By the time i had LMotN i was r10 asuran, vanguard, and norn, and deldrimore and i didnt really grind any of those titles.

and when i got guardian of elona and vanquisher of elona, that automatically came with r10 sunspear and r7 Lightbringer.
so in all reality, when you max out all the first titles you listed (legend cartographer, legend vanq, legend guard, legend Master of North) you will have lots of other maxed titles falling right behind.
So really by the time you get Legendary Guardian (7), Legendary Cartographer (4), Legendary Vanquisher (4), Legendary Master of the North (1), you should have about 22 maxed titles because Lightbringer, Sunspear, Norn, Asura, Vanguard, And Deldrimor are already there.

All that is left is legendary skill hunter which is another 4 maxed titles brings you to 26 maxed titles... (So close to god walking among mear mortals) and you didnt even have to PvP or spend tons of cash. the only cash i could imagine spending to max those 26 titles is about 280k for signets of capture. But if you didnt make well over 300k maxing out all those titles, then something is seriously wrong.

Support your assertions with facts, sir. Otherwise it's just blather. Skill still wins, hands down.

It's pretty clear that any HoM benefit will not give you a material advantage over other players. All you need to do is to look at 3 years history of "specials" provided. They give you some bling (emotes, minis, et cetera), but other than making it easy to get to level 20, it's all eye candy.

There's no reason to think that Anet will do anything other than what it's done already, namely provide a nice recognition to long-term players, without unbalancing the game in any way.

The grind isn't fun, no. But when I look at/play other games where you have to play/grind a long time just to level up, GW makes me happy.

dude OF COURSE this is a grind fest
what else you expected
only people have enough tiems in their hands can play a mmorpg game because it allways req grind

THIS GAME SHOULD HAVE BEEN a grind fest and Im GLAD
what would we have been doing now
killing lich lord for 30th time

I dont think so I just do titles now cause I did everythin else

How many people that grind titles are would be happy if GW2 had nothing for the time u spend getting those titles? I hope there won't be huge threads when GW2 is out about how we got ripped off spending hours of grind for nothing. Then I would laugh.

But really content over grind if what would be nice. I guess from what I hear WoW has game updates that add content more missions and such. But I guess thats what u get with monthly subscriptions. I would even pay for more GW games if they added more adventure. GWEN was a bad example of an expansion imo. Too short and dungeons all became a blurr, u done a couple dungeons it feels like u have done them all. The 3 distinct regions were cool just not enough to keep me from running through it. I'd like elite missioin like UW, Urgoz, Deep. Those are fun. DoA is like Slavers on steriods. Grinding for weapons can be fun theres some excitement, kinda like gambling, see what u can get. But for me its not much fun grinding for gold to buy titles to get what? I have more fun doing things new and challenging. A new expansion would make me happy. It would't have to have any new skills to balance or what not just new areas and missions, elite areas new foes etc.

But anywayz, Grinding is for some people, but the other poeple get left bored. PvP really is only fun when your friends are online to play gvg or Ha or whatever. I feel like grind should be one form of gameplay not the only thing. I understand there will always be an amount of grind in mmo's.

It's funny that the original GW was actually much more grindy than it is now.
Or perhaps I should say it had more mandatory grindy.

Some titles are definitely grind: SS/LB/GWEN races, although some are more debatable. I personally don't consider Legendary Guardian grind (racing through Cantha on HM was fun, and I loved doing the 4-person missions in HM because there was more kick.)

If you feel like you're grinding, you should take a break. Either stop GWing or go do something different. I vanquish with my friends becaues I find vanquishing solo infinitely boring - so if they aren't around and I want to GW, I AB. It's a change from killing monsters to battling against other players, even if some people don't think it should be considered PvP.

i dont see how skill over time isnt valid anymore. everything is easy to unlock outside of titles. u dont need them to improve ur abilities (except the norn ones and lb, but that has no bearing on pve). skill over time still applies to pvp, but grind is just there to keep people busy. wut mmo doesnt have grind to keep its inhabitants glued to the game? can u imagine how fast u would be finished wit a game if there was no grind?

Here are the facts I'm working with under that assertion:

Nightfall introduced the lightbringer skillset. 8 damage reduction and +40% damage in the endgame areas is not eye candy.

Eye of the North introduced a very large number of skills hinged on grind. Remember these?

• Air of Superiority
• Asuran Scan
• Edification
• Mental Block
• Mindbender
• Pain Inverter
• Radiation Field
• Smooth Criminal
• Summon Ice Imp
• Summon Mursaat
• Summon Naga Shaman
• Summon Ruby Djinn
• Technobabble
• "By Ural's Hammer!"
• "Don't Trip!"
• Alkar's Alchemical Acid
• Black Powder Mine
• Brawling Headbutt
• Breath of the Great Dwarf
• Drunken Master
• Dwarven Stability
• Ear Bite
• Great Dwarf Armor
• Great Dwarf Weapon
• Light of Deldrimor
• Low Blow
• Snow Storm
• Stout-Hearted
• Deft Strike
• Ebon Battle Standard of Courage
• Ebon Battle Standard of Honor
• Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom
• Ebon Escape
• Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
• Ebon Vanguard Sniper Support
• Rebel Yell
• Signet of Infection
• Sneak Attack
• Tryptophan Signet
• Weakness Trap
• Winds
• "Dodge This!"
• "Finish Him!"
• "I Am The Strongest!"
• "I Am Unstoppable!"
• "You Are All Weaklings!"
• "You Move Like a Dwarf!"
• A Touch of Guile
• Club of a Thousand Bears
• Feel No Pain
• Heart of the Norn
• Raven Blessing
• Ursan Blessing
• Volfen Blessing

Now, I don't mind having slightly overpowered PvE only skills in the game. I finished EoTN, and some of the armor crafters still wouldn't give me the time of day after I had saved them from the destroyers. That is aesthetic, but it also means my skills wouldn't be at full power. To do so, you'd have to spend a considerable amount of time with a character. And, if you liked playing more than one character, repeating this process for all of them is a bit daunting.

So, in a way, I suppose you're right. The game is about skills. There are a number of excellent ones above. Unfortunately, theres a bit of grind tied to each one.

If you don't like grinding, than why bother at all about HoM?. There's no real benefit in GW2, exept some kind of place where you can show your friends, family, relations, guildies, whoever, how good you were in GW1 in... Grinding!

Mind, I don't have anything against grinding, in fact its an important part of the game for many PvE players, but I would never grind for a virtual medal or fancy clothes... So just don't do it if you don't like it and let others do what they like!

I do, I think that PvE only skills are the worst idea ever implement by Anet.

I'm surprised that you completed all of the quests in GW:EN and did not reach at least R5 in each title track. Didn't know that was possible.

For one, I hate the PvE skills and the fact that most people think that you need them maxed for them to be useful. Anet buffed PvE skills at lower levels so that the difference isn't as marked. Not that this has any effect on players, who still seem to think that maxed titles is a mark of a quality player. But I blame this on the players rather than Anet. Personal responsibility and all that.

As far as the titles go, the point I made earlier still stands. You can attain reasonable levels of every title in GW:EN and Nightfall just by playing the game.

The one exception is the Canthan "Friend" title, which does require grind. It is overpowered, not in the spirit of the game, and should be changed so that it doesn't require a few hours HFFF'ing just to reach the minimum rank.

So we probably agree on more than we disagree; namely: PvE skills suck. Skill > time. Most players are morons.

HoM can be left EMPTY and you can still play GW2. You won't get anything to make you BETTER than someone else by having GW:EN and a filled HoM. Fitz, you still haven't learned what a fantasy game is, and what reality is. Learn how they differ, then join those of us who live in reality and play in fantasy.

It's not a grind fest it's a game. How you choose to play it will never change that fact.

From a dev's perspective

Title grind = easy to add = cheap
Immersive content and gameplay = hard to do = expensive

Not hard to see why ANet loves adding grind, regardless of how much we don't.

It needn't be like that of course, some content is very good and easy, like when they beefed up Rotscale and added the totem axes, fans and ice breaker to prophesies. If we had an addition like that every month that would be brilliant. But title grind really is too easy to add, so they do it.

Try PvP, its easy, all you have to do to win some is be average. Remenber, 49% of all players are below average.

Actually, it doesn't take that long if you AB, and vanquishing should get you the minimum rank... I've never HFFFed and I'm r4 Kurz. If you're rushing to max, however, that's a different story.

not everyone can go and start HA
it requires some title to start with

and that makes you grind for gold, then get hero point run

can someone tell me how you can find a party without any rank
YOU CANNOT
and when you cannot get in a party youc annot gain rank

There is more to PvP than ust HA. Ever consider RA, TA, HB, AB, GvG, FA, or JQ? Perhaps if you found a guild that did PvP, they would join you for HA. PUGing HA and expecting to win is why people require rank. Taking a guild team for HA and expecting to win is how people gain rank.

There are no other forms of PVP other then TA, HA and GVG. You cannot play PVP without organisation, the others like RA and AB are purely skill less random gank fests where you go to do nothing but grind points.

That is that GW has become now, grind. It isnt even satisfying grind, I will rather go back to playing Maple Story and at least have fun while continuously grinding and killing things, and will play AoC again when it has more content (no point paying for an unfinished game).

GW has become everything it wasnt supposed to be, and with its model of reach maximum level and get maximum equips in just one day, they essentially have removed all aspect of fun from the so called 'optional' grinding.

I would rather grind for levels, more power and better equips for some sense of reward, accomplishment and improving my character, then grind for nothing but points and titles. But I know, you still like GW so it must be a great game, even to all those that hate it now. Have fun with your pointless grindfest for points and titles just to make you look 1337 and pr0.

Fair call but as you have said there are games where you can go do that.

You have to remember the fact the grind is pointless gives players like me the freedom to ignore it.

Never mind the fact that there are titles which provide very real benefits or that the very nature of them creates a sense of accomplishment...

Getting an extra 1% or so chance of my lockpicks not breaking after opening 1000 chests hardly makes any difference.

Running around with elite armor, rare weapons, and a bandana all dyed black with some title under my name doesnt feel anywhere near as rewarding as reaching a high level and soloing hard bosses.

Unfortunately, with the exception of Maple Story, the rest of the games arent free to play, and I do not play enough to justify the monthly spend.

There are also plenty of games with no grind altogether, it doesnt mean that PVE in an RPG works well without it. I have never wanted to play any part of PVE in GW after completing the game once, and that is its problem. Once you complete the game which takes a few days, the grind is no longer optional because all you have left to do is grind.

The game is pure grind once you have completed it, just like any other, except it is less fun.

What you want sounds like a hybrid of WoW and GW. And people would run screaming from it. GW was made to be DIFFERENT from WoW, which is why people play it/love it/don't play it/ignore it (wayhay, there's that choice thing again).

GW is what it is. It may not be perfect to some, but the beauty of the game is that you have the CHOICE to grind. Grinding the argument is an exercise in futility - the game construct is not going to change for a vocal minority, nor is your ranting going to change the mind of those people perfectly happy with the game.

Also, insulting those who are happy with the state of play is the last refuge of an exhausted debate.

You have your choice - grind or don't - just as much as we do. There's no need to force your play style on other people.

Without grind, PvE is a short, mediocre story with little challenge wrapped in pretty graphics, and then there's PvP. With the fading of PvP and continual support for grind in PvE, it's clear the longevity of the game is being based on grind mechanics.

You have the choice not to grind in WoW too, but the game is pretty empty without it.

If GW was a direct WOW clone and free to play, for every player that left the game, 10 players would join from leaving WOW.

I certainly remember plenty of people agreeing in the past that PVE in GW is a joke.

GW2 is already going to have more levels and grind anyway, I wonder just why they arent carrying over the 20 level cap from GW? Oh yea, because they broke it by adding grind.

No one would leave GW if, lets say for example, each new campaign had added another 20 levels. The game is completely free to play, you would lose nothing from having to spend a few months to reach max level rather then just one day. The only reason people started playing GW isnt because it had no grind, but because it has no fees.

And I dont see grinding in GW as only being a choice. Everyone completes the game at some point, after which all they have left to do is grind.

And I havnt insulted anyone at all, I am simply discussing the mechanics of this game, no need to take offence because I think the game is broken.

PvE can be lots of fun if you're playing with the right people. There is a huge amount of content spread across three continents. Sound like you're in the wrong guild.
You may want to read this

But why do you want more levels? What will having a higher level number get you? In the end it's just a number that has - and will have in GW2 - no relevance to your stats or abilities.

No, because people kept saying they wanted a number beside their name to show how leet and how much "work" they put into the game they are.

Subjective. People will go and do what the WANT to do. Why is Choice such a dirty word around here?

Fun wasn't part of my statement.

As much fun as I might have, the game is still easy, and still short. I could have fun with that same group of people doing any other activity, and indeed, most of my guildmates migrated to other games.

Nice job on the wiki link, but if you don't see that GW:EN (and Factions/NF to degrees) had duration tacked onto it with game-lengthening grind, you're blind.

Actually that's your problem.

We all have hugely differing play styles and ideals, I gather GW no longer seems to fit yours.

I finished the whole game a long time ago yet I still play each week and wouldn't bother if I didn't enjoy it.I'm gathering you clearly define enjoyment by the ability to play new content.

Non-subscription is epic fail for that expectation.

It's not the game at fault, it's placing unrealistic expectations on the format that leads to such opinions which is beyond the control of the developers.

Again I don't grind and still hugely enjoy the game, mainly through helping friends and PuG's.

To be honest all I'm hearing is that you have personally exhausted all the desirable elements of the game that you personally enjoyed and now wish for a tier reward and gear system to keep you interested.

There's a simple solution.

well any game that you want to 100% complete (if you want to cal it that) would be a grind. It wouldnt be a HUGE accompishment if we could all fill our HoMs in a week. Filling it is impressive because it is such a grand feat. ill probably never fill mine cuz i have too much fun BSing with my guildies and allies doing other stuff then to title chase til im bored of it.

any game that has grind appeals to a more hard core gamer, GW has gotten a great mix of gameplay here that appeals to hardcore and casual gamers.

But yes filling your HoM can be quite a grind (my hats off to you that accomplish that)

If it is true, that filling the HoM has become the focus of anyone's play, they have only themselves to blame. The fact that some fools think there is any real significance to filling the HoM, does not make the game a "grind fest" - it makes their own approach to the game a grind fest. You can turn any game into a grind-fest by repeatedly doing something for no real reason.

Playing GW does not actually require you to grind for anything. The small increases you get in the effectiveness of Asuran/Norn/Vanguard/Dwarven skills, for example, by going from R8 to R10 will not actually have any real affect on how well you can play the game (PvE). So, if you insist that for whatever reason, you must max all the titles, it's up to your own desires - the game doesn't really require it.

Of course, for some people, if they don't start the game with max everything, they think that simply playing the game is a "grind", so what can ya say to them?

I know I don't NEED titles, but after playing for so long, I've chosen a few as simple goals for my primary character. Some I've done for challenge alone (Masters level on all missions) and some for the benifits in character/hero flexibility (All Elites capped).

BUT...Here's where it gets "grindy" for me: Let's say I want to get ANY of the title tracks (Lightbringer, Sunspear, Norn, Asura, Deldrimor and the like...). If I want any of these title tracks, it is not enough to merely complete all the missions and dungeons pertaining to the title in both regular and Hard Modes, oh, no! I MUST either participate in activities like Dwarven Boxing or Polymok for countless hours, or find a high pay-out mission and repeat it endlessly until the title is reached.

How many of us have done the ol' LB/SS farm with the Rune of Doom in our inventory for weeks on end to get those titles, or killed and rekilled Facet Dragons without ever claiming the reward for the mission...over and over....blah! The problem is having little other alternative for acheiving some titles other than mindless grinding (unless you want to redo a bunch of missions and have it take longer than the "points farm" missions/quests).

I guess I just don't see why the point values to certain titles are set so high that grinding/farming points is the only way to acheive them. Why not have them set just high enough that if you do everything in regular AND HM you need only participate in a few more activities to get the maxed points. Three weeks of riding worms through the dessert 3-4 hours a day is simply not fun...and only semi-profitable. Killing Facet Dragons for weeks has gotten me to rank 8, but it is SO not fun I'm only good for 1-2 runs before I quit and find otherr things to do. So close to 15 maxed titles! But sacrificing fun in the process.

To each his own I suppose. For me, I want a few titles and I'm willing to put effort into getting them, I just wish the effort was put towards something a little more interesting/worthwhile/fun than killing the same beasties hundreds of times because it's faster (by days/weeks) than the alternatives. Someone start a petition for triple Asura/Norn/Deldrimor/Vanguard points Weekend...better yet, the whole Week!

Actually there are alternatives to repetitive grind - for LB/SS it's vanquishing and quests. For EoTN rep, it's vanquishing and Hero Handbooks. But wait - yes, they do take time and effort.

FCOL people, if you want something, work for it - either do the concerted effort of what GW people call "grind" (really, nothing compared to years long work in other games), or take the TIME to work on those books/quests/vanquishing.

Y'all sound like you want the game pre-played for you. (PS: Twin Raven, I do see that, yay for you, you put out there you are willing to put the effort in)

GW is only a grindfest if you choose to play that part of the game which ISN'T REQUIRED. Everything in HOM is EXTRA it serves no purpose in GW and is really only for an added benefit (nobody knows what yet) for GW2 promotions. So stop complaining there is no grind required in GW of any significance except leveling and getting your skills and that one sunspear title ONLY in Nightfall. All chapters are INDEPENDENT of one another so if you grind YOU CHOOSE TO GRIND no one is forcing you.

Agreed, the way they were implemented. I've always maintained they should have been tied to regular attributes just like other skills.
It's fairly easy, actually. Before turning in books, my Mesmer had r4 in both Asura and Vanguard after collecting all the PvE skills, except for the Asura summons, from both. (a book back while books weren't worth much pipped her over on Vanguard with the help of some outright grinding, and then a buffed book jumped her straight to r6 on Asura.)

She's still on r4, and in the lower part therof, of the Norn and Deldrimnor tracks, again with all skills from each (except possibly the boxing ones - those I think I've just have done with the physicals so far). This also includes completing a couple of dungeons that grant points in these tracks for completion - without those, she might still only be r3 for Deldrimnor.

So, it's possible to have collected all the skills with, at most, r5 Asura and 4 on all the others.

See, I'm happy to just run all ten professions through the content. Sure, I'm not playing as much as when it was all 'new', but often enough.

Long level grinds are pretty much the antithesis of my playstyle. Diablo 2, for instance - I never got a character above level 40. Why? Because I prefer to spend my time tasting all the fruits of the tree rather than eating the same one over and over again. Play the same content over again with the same character, with or without harder monsters, when I could instead play that content with a fresh new character? Butter that for a game of soldiers.

Now, translate that into GW. The low level cap meant that instead of being forced to play one character continuously to get to the top of the power band and access the endgame content, I can get my full stable of characters up to a competitive point fairly quickly. That most areas are the same level means that when someone asks for help with a particular mission, I don't need to find what character is at a comparable level and bring that - I can play whichever character I feel like playing because they're ALL at a comparable level!

Now, I understand that other people have different playstyles and play the game in different ways. However, we don't need to have every single game on the market catering for one playstyle and nothing at all for anyone else. Stop being greedy, all you grinders!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I still need to kill the Great Destroyer six more times, and the Lich three more times. It's not repetitive because each time I do it, I'll be doing it differently!

Actually, going for Legendary Master of the North should get you those titles along the way, and someone already mentioned that you can get LB/SS via vanquishing. But I do appreciate that vanquishing isn't everyone's cup of tea. I got my titles mostly during double point weekends - went on a vanquish spree in different areas because it was more interesting than pure farming.

Agreed. If I don't want to play monk, I play ele, and the experience is different.