Level cap - GW2

My opinion: No level cap.

I would like to see a much better, broader and deeper character development in GW2, and no level cap (or a very high cap) is a good starting point.

Good. If it wasn't, it would've most definitely not lasted this long.

...On a completely personal and subjective level. Because of that, I can't really show you any positive/negative effects. Neither of us can because we can only go based upon our personal observations. We don't know what sort of pedestal everyone puts titles on.

Or you can ignore the numerous references I've made to them in this thread.

ANet saw these as bad ideas, too, but only later (a fault I won't deny).

Also on a very personal and subjective level.

Ursan was stupid not because it allowed people to reach "leet vanity status" but because it entirely disregarded everything Guild Wars: It threw out party balance, skill organization, build knowledge, and skill>time in one fell blow.

It's essentially like putting the BFG9000 at the beginning of every level of Doom. It's equivalent to the developers saying "here, don't learn how to play the game".

If they believed things in Guild Wars 1 were going so well, I don't think we'd have seen such a quick transition into the making of a sequel.

Does this mean the same thing that happened with GW1 won't happen with GW2? No. Does this mean it will? No. The only thing that will determine GW2's success at this point is nothing. Broken record continues...

Different level cap = entirely different game, obviously...

== My Idea of Level Caps in Guild Wars 2 ==

This idea promotes players in actually playing the game instead of going for the max level then "grind" for titles and farm for "elite stuffs" in the game.

How to do that:
There has to have different one time only quests and missions, sprung up at different areas of the game world 365/24/7 at a random intervals. It will also allow for guildies/alliances to recruit players or a global announcement that xx area have xx incident, players will have to deploy themself to those location for the experience and special rewards, If players are absent during that time they don't get those experience and rewards. Therefore players have got to be in the game forever! Experience points will be added, and special rewards place in players inventory for to use later, in exchange of elite skills, weapons, armors and what nots for their characters. the rewards items are customized and non-transferables.

There will also be no level caps! Every players starts out age 17-300 (choice) with all non-elite skills already available in their "skill book/list of skills" and they grow with the game, the skills evolve with the character in "real time". For instant Player Z's meteor shower would be different from Player X's meteor shower depending on how these players use it, this might be a bit far fetch, inbalance game = bad i suppose, but, it would reflect skill >time, so how to fix that, by putting a cap on the maximum damage meteor Shower can cause. Therefore, in time, when players have throughly explore the possibility of using meteor Shower, it will be at its full potential.

This way player Z who actually play the game and understand how the skill works and how their chain effect will turns out, will have a much higher damage output if they use skill bar X compare to player X who don't play the game but slap on skill bar X which they actually never use before will probably have maybe 0 damage, like 2 persons, buys the same piano and plays Piano Concerto No. 3 by Rachmaninoff, one practices everyday and one just bought the music sheet sort of thing.

Side Notes:
Elite skills will only be available for capping when all the non-elite skills have been "level to the max" (or at one point of the character development as see fit by the development team)

Okay First off if Anet does infact raise the level cap it will probably be in the range of 30 or 40. Anets purpose for Guildwars a lot of people forget is for the casual gamer, that has been their attention for every game they sold. For those who may have forgotten what a casual gamer is, it is a person who can play a game and be able to put it down. Anets Attention as they have stated for Guildwars 2 has not changed.

If you want to play PvE yes there will probably be more grind from the start of GW2, because Anet now knows they have a huge fan base of players that are only PvE players.

PvP will still have their titles, plus in Guildwars you never had to level up to play PvP in the first place. Even from when the game first came out. So, even if GW2 has a grind to level cap that is the players choice to do so.

Also for a player who;s heart is set only on PvP and still think that a level cap will add grind and make it longer for you to get an awesome custom Character in and ready for PvP status, that player needs to remeber that GuildWars is no longer a PvP game.

Yes Guildwars in the beginning was created for PvP, just look at some of the Pve missions in the first instalment clearly teaching you how to run relics, and by the time you got to Tombs Anet thought people would just play PvP, which alot of them did. Even Factions was created for PvP and some Pve content thrown in. After that is when it change Anet dicovered most of their players were on the PvE side, so Nightfall was creat and two new classes and skills for the PvP people.

Eye of the North was only for PvE it would have been bigger except hat they knew there current model of GuildWars was not going to work out for both PvP and PvE so they made a quick expansion and went off to make a better game they will suit both PvP and PvE.

So, yes there will be a level cap, and people need to get off the fact that guildwars was a PvP game yes we know but guildwars 2 is PvX
Yes they have made elite areas, yes they have made titles, yes they added a little bit of grind to the game.

I beg to differ. I reckon it would have lasted at least this long, possibly longer.

Then give me some positive effects from your personal observations.

Then you would know that grind DOES get you things now, and the requirement for skill has gone down significantly.

That is all true....but it was also stupid because of what people were using it for. Nobody would have any problem with Ursan if it didn't get you anything for using it. Instead it got people things that have value which shouldn't have value for very little skill input.

Uh...things in Guild Wars 1 have gone well. It was a success. The problem with the model Anet chose is that they were basically forced to come up with something new and all but abandon the previous game (which will happen). I have a feeling the model they have chosen is going to come crashing down someday...but thats another thread altogether.

No...things that occur (or have occurred) in Guild Wars 1 WILL have an impact on GW2's success.

Not necessarily...but different level cap does show that Anet wants the game to be different because small level cap was one of the biggest features of gameplay in 1.

I think uncapped lvl would suck because if you wanted to pvp, you'd either suck, or it wouldn't be fun because you would kick ass.

I also think that lvl 20 is a tad low, because then theres not as much to shoot for after you get lvl 20. Sure theres titles and what not but I get a little dissapointed when I hit lvl 20. :\

Maybe like lvl 40 or something would work good? I think it would be fine.

I hope people know that no level cap would introduce an incredible amount of discrimination in PvE, comparable to the horrid mess Heroes Ascent has become, where rank is grinded mindlessly to somehow prove that you are better than others.

Guild Wars is dead?

As long as you understand that personal experiences and observations are insignificant?

Things = Subjective. Not to mention you've been able to get "things" in such a manner since the start.

So, are you considering the fact that it made you able to get subjective rewards quicker the problem or that it voided the list I had mentioned earlier?

Bear in mind how I've said those "things of value" are incredibly subjective and personal, so saying Ursan is a problem because it allows you to get to those faster is, in a matter of fact, a selfish and personal-based point of view.

Hence, GW2. Different game, different model.

Notice how I voided "which will happen"?

Obviously, but by how much?

20 in RPGs is actually rather standard. Granted it's not an MMO standard, but it wasn't aimed to be an MMO in the firstplace.

And it was less the fact that it was "small" rather that in later releases they voided it even more meaningless by having you level up to max in the starter isles. In such an instance it would've served the game much easier to just have no level progression.

I wouldn't say dead...but just about. There is still a community, but can we really call the game alive?

I don't think so. I think personal experiences and observations mean a lot...it is all we have. How else are we going to judge what is negative or positive?

Yes, but not this easily and not in this abundant manner. Grind today is promoted instead of just being something that is possible.

LoL...so you are saying that the mass super farming of those "things of value" is not a problem? Meh...we have basically gotten to the point where we know I am right and you are resorting to everything being selfish and personal based point of view. We aren't even adding anything at this point...I have already described how the game has changed. EVERYTHING else is a point of view. How else do you suspect we judge?

No...different game, same model...same marketing model that is. Unless they come out with some huge announcement that we don't know about.

More than you think. In my case I will almost assuredly not be buying 2 (barring high recommendations). I can probably name 10-20 other players I know who won't be buying it either for those reasons. I'm sure a lot of other PvP players also feel the same way.

I think that was the entire point that Anet was trying to tell us. Levels weren't supposed to be mean much of anything...it was the gameplay after the levels that counted. Now we have people who want the levels to matter...we have people who want to be level 999 and smack down a level 20 or some weak monsters. Ok thats exagerrating but my point still stands.

Can we really call this game totally dead?

It's safe to say that it's far from its peak, but we're not in any further position to claim it's lifespan.

One personal experience, and that is most certainly not enough to base anything off of.

Was that the point of what I said?

Of course there's more "grind" and more of those personal and subjective things to go with it - but those things are still no less personal and subjective, save for the minuscule exceptions.

The question wasn't if you considered it a problem rather if you considered it the problem. If personal rewards always takes priority over, say, the gameplay then I'm sure you'd be right.

The only way we'll know it'll end up like GW1 is when it gets there. Until then we've only got suspicion and assumption.

Are you taking into account the number of people that may've actually enjoyed GW, regardless or unaware of what has happened?

There was progression in Proph, is it not possible some people simply wanted that progression of character and self to extend even further?

It's already been stated that your level rank in PvE wouldn't matter in PvP because everything is set in the latter. Save for open PvP of course, but lol.

There's really little that you can do against it, and it's not a very good reason to completely void a potentially new gameplay mechanic in the MMO scape.

No, but pretty close.

So what is?

Your point was that things are subjective, which doesn't add anything at all. I could say the entire game is subjective. I don't see your point. My point was that grinding for subjective things is now promoted (and abundant) instead of just possible.

It arguably has. The endgame is now personal rewards. And Ursan had many problems, that being one.

And Anet already telling us what the GW2 model would be...

Yes of course. I'm sure those people will be happy with Guild Wars 2. I'm just saying the negative effects of Guild Wars 1 will probably have more of an effect on 2 than you realize. I wouldn't be shocked at all if Guild Wars 2 didn't have anywhere near the success of 1. If it has more success then congrats to Anet...but I'm just saying I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't.

Sure. The problem is that the current level cap works as intended and people want the game to be something different. The level cap is a big unique feature of Guild Wars 1. It isn't that people want the game to be better, they want it to be different altogether.

Iiiiit's the Bryant Again and Dreamwind show... *cue music and applause*

Anyway, even thought my post will get lost in the sea of too and fro posting from the aforementioned posters, I believe that a level cap of 20 is perfect, and I really hope that they don't change it. I love the fact that I can have a character ready within a night or two, and not have to grind for weeks just to access high level content.

although i feel that there has to be a cut off point for hp, mana, etc through level progression, i would like to see no cap on the level you can earn... if a virtual level in GW1 is about 15000xp (when you gain a skill point), then I would be at 486. although any benefit beyond earning a skill point ended for me at lvl 20, i would still like to see that level number reflect the convention established for skill point progression.

no level cap, or really high one please. I want to casually do damage like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z8Cn4r9IHY&NR=1

That won't be on your mind if it's scaled properly and, like Zweistein said earlier, they make the game start at lvl 1.

Not only that, but it's less in the cap itself and more how long it takes to max out.

'K

Based on what you just said in the previous posts and in the first passage here, not what you're thinking.

Now putting these together so the thread doesn't get even shittier:

Short answer - that's only if you hold things like GWAMM actually prestigious...

Long answer - Keyword in bold. I still have my skill > time, and as long as ANet maintains that they still know what takes 1st place. You are still vastly recognized for your skill in PvE. In order to still beat the game I need to configure a good bar and work with my teammates. In order to still vanquish every area I need to know my shit. Your guild hall smells of rich mahogany? Well I just killed the Lich and got a badass sword, bee-hotch!

Another keynote: Subjective. All of these titles affect you in a much more different way than I. You praised the game because the "grind", be it optional or not, didn't exist. Not because ANet never said it would, but because it simply didn't at the time. Now it exists. Is this more a problem of you or the game?

To both: Yet again, wait and see. We have no idea what will happen until we get there.

"But I know so many people who have had such a poor experience!"
"Well I know just as many people who's experiences have been positive!"
"No u!"
"No U!"

: \

Because change is bad and ANet isn't allowed to try anything different. And how is a different level cap insinuating such a drastic change of the core gameplay?

To reiterate: it wasn't the cap was unique. It was the complete lack of emphasis on leveling that occurred in the later chapters.

It is a problem that anybody thinks a title that almost certainly required an amount of grind is prestigious. Not because the people shouldn't hold it prestigious (I don't have a problem with that), but because Anet made it that way (which I have a problem with).

This is possibly the least accurate thing you've said in the entire thread. It is wrong on so many levels that I don't even have time to type out the essay on it right now.

We are not talking as much about how these things affect the people...we are talking about how they affected the game. Yes, I believe it is a problem with the game.

Uh...we have what Anet has told us will happen. Unless they change their mind? I suppose knowing Anet that wouldn't be a far stretch.

Because making big changes to a successful formula is a great idea.

It is a drastic change...because the increased level cap strongly implies that there will be a higher emphasis on leveling.

Glad DreamWind poined this out:

"Ha. Ha." times 1000.

The rumors where first that there isn't any level cap or level 100...

Which goes back to the question I asked earlier: Problem of player or game?

Just another one of ANet's damned-if-you-do predicaments: implement it and bring with it some amounts of elitism and/or other related mishaps, don't implement it and sacrifice an encouraging game mechanic for others.

Then I guess I'll have to like totally stick to your word, ja?

What about for those that it doesn't affect? Not because they don't care about it, but because they don't see any harm in it?
If a person didn't care about the past "grinds", what's going to make him care about the current?
If the problem is the amount of "grind" available to do, where do you draw the line of having "too much"? And, more importantly, who draws that line?

The problem with those questions? None of us can give a solid, well-founded answer to any of them.

...

So therefore, it's totally going to end up like Guild Wars 1.

Pricing is going to be exactly the same, the amount of content is going to be exactly the same, the quality of content is going to be the same, the way in which each chapter differs/doesn't differ is going to be the same, the extension and variety of different gameplay styles found in each expansion is going to be the same, the etc.^1000.

Ungh. There was a lot of greatness that came with GW1, but there was also a lot of bad (just ask yourself, dude). Where everything is going to head all depends on your perspective/experience/POV/general philosophy.

But all we have right now is guesses, even with what little ANet has told us.

Again, because ANet isn't allowed to try anything new.

There's nothing saying they can't make a new formula and be just as successful, one that could be able to mix traditional RPG aspects with the new and still be unique (how many free-to-play uncapped online-only RPGs do you run into?). The only way GW1 was unique was it's ability to create a level cap then trash it entirely through later releases. And it doesn't become meaningless in a Baldur's Gate way, it becomes meaningless in a "why do I even have to level when they max me out at the get-go" way.

Now was it done like this because ANet wanted to completely remove that progression experience, or because the players wanted to play with their "maxed out" characters?

Or don't implement it and don't sacrifice anything...ADDING it was the sacrifice.

Yea...because what you said was so ridiculous it barely deserves discussion. I'm surprised you even said it.

The problem with your theory is this falls right back in to "don't like it don't use it". And we know where that ends up. The reason it is so terrible is because we are talking about game health, not the selfish experiences of each individual.

As for who draws the line, well that would be Anet of course. The problem here is that they drew the line then blatantly stepped over it, not that they moved the line.

There was some bad in GW1, but I'm betting Anet would give anything to have the same amount of success. They will obviously say they want more success, but in reality they will be happy with roughly the same amount.

And we don't have guesses...we have official word from ANet on several features of the game. I suppose it would be smart to question those things however, as we know how Anet is about keeping their word.

Sure Anet is allowed to try new things. The problem here is that the leveling system was a key feature in 1 that they are going to change in 2. They didn't trash it in later releases, they simply IMPROVED IT! Level is supposed to mean nothing in Guild Wars! I can pull out several official statements that say that. So yes, in reality there is not much point to levels as they don't mean anything. This isn't a flaw in the game, it is a PART of the game. By changing it in Guild Wars 2, they are making it seem like a flaw because it isn't like "those other games", when in reality it was the entire point of this game to begin with.

Sacrifice a minor point of longevity that a few may enjoy, while still keeping themselves indefinitely unique by implementing major timesinks that don't offer anything besides personal satisfaction? I'll take it.

Sure thing, bro.

Firstly: again, we're not dealing with numbers, we're dealing with colors. DL;DU is iffy here because of how non-factual the situation is. That's why that line is so hard to draw, it's fuzzy as hell.

And that's why this passage is cut short.

We have "official word" on features that we've only heard of, and seeing how much everyone here skews what ANet says it's just showing you to always await to judge the final product.

You pretty much got it right there in the middle, but only applied it to Guild Wars' in its current state: Levels don't mean anything in Guild Wars, but also in the best RPGs. Baldur's Gate? Won't care. Oblivion? Not a biggie. KotOR? Well there is the lust for your lightsaber but that's about it. The rest is on you.

When game progression is done right, you can put any level cap you want in there: 5, 50, 5,000,000, doesn't matter. You've got a game that scales to it that's also amazing.

And those who do like the look of a high level? They get their cake, too. Those who don't? Remember, it doesn't mean anything.

Interesting tidbit:

Where did they say it was a flaw?

No...sacrifice the entire game philosophy (and points of longevity) by implementing non-skill based timesinks.

Using your logic, I can say everything is colors. I think Ursan had positive effects...its not factual that it was negative!! Of course it would be stupid to say that. It would also be stupid to say that additions to Guild Wars didn't cause it to change drastically, and if you are looking from a purist or consumer point of view, the changes were for the worse.

We have them on record saying no monthly fees, world PvP, higher level caps, etc etc. Unless you think they will change their mind? When it comes to level caps, based on the idea alone a solid judgment can be made that they are changing the direction of the franchise.

The problem here is that most of the people who want higher level caps would not get their cake in your example, and the people who don't want higher level caps would hate it. The entire reason for wanting a higher level cap is for it TO MATTER MORE. Meaning it MEANS SOMETHING. If I have level 888999, I want to be more uber than a level 100000. It took work to get there. All of these things are the exact opposite of Guild Wars 1.

By the very idea of higher level caps, they have abandoned their old system and original idea. If it wasn't flawed, why change it?

Skill>time is still prevalent in gameplay. You cannot grind your stats and solo everything in the game. The only thing close to that is the benefit you gain from title-based PvE skills, but the additions are by far and large minuscule - even moreso with the patch including the nerf to Ursan.

It's not that they want against anything, the game simply changed from having it to not having it. How it was against their philosophy is entirely open up to interpretation.

In regards to "points of longevity", is this about Guild Wars being a PvP-based endgame?

It simplified the game in a nonsensical manner. Not only did it throw out profession/build/party requirements, but it was also implemented to make the game easier - which makes zero sense when you have two difficulty modes to tune. If players are having a difficult time in an area you make the entry level more accessible, not the difficult level. If you want players to improve you don't prohibit their learning.

It goes back to the BFG9000 example: when you have the possibilities for all this gameplay, why limit it?

And I'm not ignoring the fact that Guild Wars changed, I'm taking note of the fact that due to how largely subjective and personal it is, we're not in any position to say it changed as a whole for better or worse. Just us.

And that's about all we know.

How will each of these work together? How will each of these work alone? How will the game evolve? 0 idea.

Wait and see before final judgment.

And that's just one of many bad ways to introduce a higher level cap. If you go the way of Mass Effect and Baldur's Gate you do in fact become stronger, but so do those around you. Because of that you really might as well just start at level 1 and stay there.

And fortunately, not everyone wants a higher level cap to "be more uber".

For something new, remember? Not everyone wants to play the same game with better graphics.

When it comes to a level cap if there is going to be a GW 3 then yes if not then no.This is so this gives the devs time to work on both games GW and GW2

No its not. Sigh...I can see this is not going to get through. Please read the Prophecies box. Then please explain to me how adding things that are time>skill is not completely against the skill>time philosophy. Regardless of how much skill>time is still in the game, adding time>skill that is completely against the philosophy is not open to interpretation.

Yes.

You said this before, and I'll answer the exact same way. Adding a grind based endgame did exactly everything you just mentioned about Ursan. So how can anybody say that Ursan changed the game for the worse while a grind based endgame changed it for the better?

I can judge based solely on the annoucement. No matter how they implement it, I don't like a higher level cap (and world PvP but thats another thread).

Besides you, I have seen zero good reasons for it in this thread.

I don't either...but I want it to have the same philosophy and mechanics. Instead it seems as if the entire franchise has changed.

All that "time-spent" grants next to no benefit besides your own personal achievement (broken record GO). To beat the game and it's hardest areas, you have to have a broad understanding of the game. You can't grind out your specs or void that skill required simply by doing a mundane task.

Because of that, it still shines far above the MMO crowd. I don't put much emphasis on the things that all that "time" gets you because they just alter your appearance. Because of this, I still hold the "skill>time" philosophy true (save for actual game-affecting benefits, but at least that's been partially remedied).

If ANet wanted a solely based PvP endgame they wouldn't have provided so much PvE replayability (for it's type) or much PvE at all. Point this out as ANet's greatest "fault", not in providing more to their playerbase.

So it completely voided the need to learn the game, the professions, the areas, the skills, the uh everything?. I had absolutely no idea.

It makes the game better via supplying for those who want to spend a lot of time in the game while not disadvantaging those who don't, and recognizing achievements by players of all types via HoM.

PS: You now copy-paste from this post here.

What you personally want and desire is a bit safer to judge by, but not their success or how each and every feature will work with one another.

Very few have given any, not that there's much of a reason to.

Oh hai BG and ME and like every other good RPG.

Numbers are meaningless, although that doesn't appear to be the case for you.

Here is my problem with your "interpretation". If skill is supposed to determine your path (as it says on the box), then why implement things where skill doesn't matter? Frankly it doesn't matter what non-skill related things get you. What matters is that non-skill related things have been added in a game where skill was supposed to mean everything. There is no need to grind out your specs because there is no skill required! The endgame has become the grind!


They could have easily provided more PvE while keeping the game a PvP game...but I don't want to go into this. We've been over it about 10 million times and it gets complicated. But yes, it is Anet's greatest fault.

Arguably yes. That is basically the definition of grind...it is simply in the endgame where many people will have already learned those basic things. One thing isn't questionable...it simplified the game and made it easier.

True, but what if I don't like the features to begin with?

Uh...that was the original point of the thread. We had a bunch of people saying they want a higher number with no reason or a bad reason (and those bad reasons where the original reason I entered this thread). I could say I want level 10 gazillion, but if I give no reason for wanting it then I'm an idiot.

Meaningless to who? Apparently not to the people who want higher numbers.

DreamWind <3 Bryant, Bryant <3 DreamWind?

Cap skills, weapon dmg, armor level but not the character's level.

I personally like to no level-cap idea.

From what I've read, no level-cap does not mean no end to character power (it's supposed to be a curve with diminishing returns).

For me a characters level has always been about showing me at a glance how much time and effort I put into a character. i mean, why even accrue (only one c?) experience with your lvl 20 char if you can't step beyond lvl 20?

I don't care if everything else (dmg done, health, energy, etc) stops at lvl 20, 200, 10, or even 2, I still like to see the char level ring up one more as experience is earned.

To put it another way; I don't want my car's odometer to stop ringing up miles at 70k just because my warranty is up.

No level cap sounds interesting to me, I don't know how it would be implemented but I like the idea in theory. But I don't want to feel like I have to do something that I don't want to do in order to get to stuff that I do. Ideally I find by about 40-60 hours in a game I want access to all end game style content with a reasonable ability to succeed at it. If those are compatible I'm all in. Other then that that actual level number is just a number.

well GW 2 Will be:

An Non-Instanced Game ( Just Like GW )
With the same goal of spending a thousand hours making your character better.
A Game set to be runed on Mid-Range Computers But with much better Visuals Than GW.
The EXPLORE EVERYTHING Concept ( wich means No Loading Screens ( I think it hasnt been confirmed yet ) ) Able to travel EVERYWHERE!

Thats All I Know About GW 2 But i would like them to add:

More Player to Player Contact You know... not just make us feel this is just a game Making a game in wich we wouldnt focus so much on ourselves. A Game that would keep getting new Content Every Month Or Year.

PS: Its bad :/ Because if GW was a game like this they wouldnt need to create a new Game just for us to see new things. New Content Every Month would rock!

Well, if we would step beyond lv 20 Things would mostly Be endless... And Loads of grinding doesnt fit my thoughts or anyone´s for that matter... after lv 20, our character is finally full powered And ready to go into the Competition Part of Guild Wars In Other Games we would most Likely spend months and months just focusing on ourselves than contacting with players and batteling etc And then lets say.... on a PvP Match Someone would be stronger than us cuz he or she would be like level 90 and we would only be lv 70. Therefore having a lv 20 Cap makes People being even alot easier! So that the Victorious one isnt determined by the level.... but by its skill, by its build, byt its techniques and Team Work This is why i call GW... LEGENDARY! Its the game that Re-Defines The Way MMOs Are Played

That's not the problem here since "non-skill related" things have been in existence since the start of the game: FoW armors, elite armors, rare weapons, etc. They've been a focus for many since release. The only problem I can surmise here is that they added "too much" of these non-skill related things, and "too much" is a very, very hard thing to define.

In performance, yay. In direction, nay.

Eh? So it's not that the "grind" requires skill and more that it doesn't increase the threshold? Or is it that you consider learning the game on so many levels "basic"?

Granted, there are quite a lot of skills that do require and understanding of the game. Some not so much, though, but a few of those may be admired due to the patience.

You're boned, simply put. Just how like musical artists can't be blamed for choosing a different direction. They can be blamed, however, if they screw up in that new direction.

...Or you take into note how much it doesn't matter (just like Perth up there) - because honestly, it really doesn't. It's not the numbers that shape or define the game.

Meh I already responded to this. Yes they were in the game, but there is a big difference between something merely existing and something being added and promoted as endgame.

Because changing your direction away from your greatest performance is a good idea. It might be, but its very risky.

Grind doesn't require skill. The reason its grind is because its easy to repeat. Grind by its mere existence completely voids the need to learn the game on various levels or get better. Thus the skill threshold doesn't increase and the original point of the game goes bye bye. I'm saying that the fact that many people who grind have learned the game is irrelevent, because the grind has become the endgame.

Now we're getting somewhere. Now how many people do you think Anet boned?

Ok fine. So why do so many people want bigger numbers? Perhaps the number does shape or define the game in some way to them?

Maybe you didn't understand my point. I'm fine with a characters 'power' being capped at some point. I just like the idea of the lvl # being an accurate account of the char's total experience. i don't like that every time my fav char rolls over the xp bar the lvl stays at 20 and I only have an extra skill point to show that milestone was achieved.

It's not like I want lvl 100 to mean I have 2x the health of a lvl 50, that's no my focus at all, it's just an xp counter for me.

I think this has been mentioned several times already but I shall bring it up once more.

The actual number doesn't matter. What matters is how long it takes to reach that max level, whether it be 20 or 100. Will you reach it after completing 50% of the game? 100%? Will you need to play through multiple times plus do lots of extra grind to reach it?

What I think most people want, and I could be way off but it is what I have heard from other players, is this.

Completion of all primary quests and missions = 80 - 90% of max level.
Completion of all secondary quests and dungeons = 90 - 98% of max level.
This leaves players with 2% of grinding to reach the maximum level, whatever that number should be. Players will still be able to grind up levels and max out long before reaching the end if that is their choice.

Am I way off or does this not make sense?

By primary quests and missions, I truly hope you do not mean finishing the game. That'd be a big change from GW, and when trying to finish the game you'd get unnecessary level discrimination. Level discrimination is inevitable with a high cap, but everything should be done to keep it out of trying to just beat the storyline.

Secondly, dungeons will probably be geared for multi-player play, from what I can grasp, and they should not be factored into trying to achieve max level.

Optimally, it will be like GW where there is a general area that allows you to get very close, if not max level before you start the bulk of the storyline. Of course if there is no max level, the area should allow you to get around the level # where the power curve starts to even out.

Of course, this is all making the big assumption there even is a gw2, but thats for the other thread...

And elite armors and new weapons weren't promoted and added at every expansion as well, and it *wasn't* such a wildly supported form of "endgame"?

It's their best *and* their first. It doesn't mean it's their last.

That's a pretty rusty definition because that means eventually at some point, anything and everything in a game will become grind. Rest of my reply to this would pretty much redirect right back at my first paragraph.

Number of people boned = X. There could be just as many people upset at ANet making a much more similar game as there are people for it.

Bigger numbers can be a bit more specific to track in terms of progress and journey.

The reason for a higher level cap is to attract immature players from other MMORPGs that think only having 20 levels that you can max in a single day is 'ghey' (in the words of an anonymous player in some other MMORPG).

Anet want more players so they are aiming to turn GW2 into more of a wow clone, based on the information we have so far - raised level cap, no heroes or hench, play the game solo with a pet or with others, ZOMG sounds like WoW!

I have big hopes in GW2 having completely unique levelling model.

It can have a completely different design than any other MMO out there, so don't be so closed-minded, thinking high levels = wow clone.

If they do it right there can be high levels and there can be no strict max level and no strict power cap at all (strict caps suck, drop them please), and still keeping the no-grind policy and having the game almost as friendly to casuals and players who join after a year since release and free of discrimination as GW1 is. Win-Win.

You can have more than half of the game as content for levels 80%-100%+ (it doesn't really matter what number is the level 100%, can be 40, 50, 60, 100, 150, anything) content and elite areas level 95%+ and levelling doesn't have to stop at level 100%!
Go above the 'max'! for coolness, elite status and slight power gain too, so the great feeling of progress and character improvement never ends. (just properely balance things, a lv105% for example shouldn't be able to do things an lv100% can't).

So drop your WoW-minds, a character 10 levels higher doesn't have to be godlike in comparison. He can just be 10% more efficient in GW2, nothing gamebreaking!

Actually this would not be a change at all from GW. Prophicies was in fact laid out exactly like this. If you followed all primary quests and missions then when you completed Hell's Precipice you would be around lvl 17-19. Secondary quests and/or FoW and UW could be used for the final bit of of exp. Later they made changes so that only lvl 20 chars could enter FoW/UW and added Sorrow's Furnace which had many high exp quests that people used for leveling up via runners.

While there was some level discrimination it was very uncommon. Keep in mind my numbers were just ball park and didn't take into account any farming, something just about every player has done at one time or another.

We still have no clue how a characters level will tie into the characters power at all. For all we know the power of a character could be completely tied to what skills it has equiped/used and the level will only be used as a key for unlocking doors to new areas.