Balancing PvE

Skill splits were needed drastically.

That's the only thing im saying on that topic.

How fast can u clear DoA, UW, FOW or any other elite area in HM with SY! and how fast could you do it with the old UB?

If SY! was the name as Ursan Blessing with a small buff, tell me how people aren't organizing groups of 7 warriors, all running SY! with 1 HB monk?

Oh wait, you don't know what you're talking about.

Only Eternal grove. Both the others are quite easy in HM with only h/h.

UB without SY! around 2hours , with SY! less than 2 hours. Balanced (physical) runs are a bit over 2 hours if I remember correctly.
But that is besides the point. DOA isn't the only thing in GW , and furthermore DOA is one of the worst designed areas in GW.

But can you tell any other skill or build that is equal in terms of defense to the imbagon/DS spammer?

Smart people use imbagons/DS spammers , pugs run tank'n'spank/UB/other crap. Also that post was a comparison. UB was the most powerful offensive skill , while SY! is the most powerful defensive skill.

Balanced physical groups probably wont finish HM DOA.

UB was both offense and DEFENSE in terms of hps/armor and knock/weakness.

Shadow form tanks give as much defense if not more. Thats why they are used over imbagon.

EC conditions build is fun.

Sorry, I must have misread all those QQs about them.

Hard mode would actually be HARD if those things didn't exist.
Is it really that hard getting one more player? I always have at least one friend on thats willing to help do some HM stuff...
And I still want 7 heroes.

Sorry, but when I bought Guild Wars, it was nothing like this. You joined the forum in 2008, so I'm assuming you didn't play Guild Wars in 2005. We bought the game before these overpowered gimmick builds were around. We bought the right game, which got changed because the majority of players were bad at the game and QQ'd to ANet for years (sorry, looks like ANet did listen to the QQers)

You have no clue what QQing is, so stop using it. Does it look like I'm crying, or does it look like I'm giving constructive suggestions to ANet? You should see the amount of people who start whining when they begin defending the broken shit in PvE. So please, don't use words that you don't know the meaning to. And when talking about QQers, remember that people just like you whined to ANet for years.

The nature of balance in GW has changed dramatically since day 1.

GW once was balanced for a party of all live players. Now GW is balanced for a party with 2 players and 6 Heros. In the current form of GW any team of live players can steamroll just about any mission, regardless of any PvE skills or Cons.

You want the balance shifted back to a full live party but that just isn't reasonable at this stage of GW's life.

You're right, it isn't reasonable, and I never said it was, nor was I aiming for that. But what I do want to see is increased players in parties instead of players grabbing 3 heroes/4 henchies and easily going through hard mode. As it is, parties for general HM missions/vanquishes having 4 players and 4 heroes instead of 1 human and 7 AI would be a great improvement.

I'm not asking to completely kill everything that makes HM easy. I'm not asking to make it so you have to make parties of 8 people to do HM. All I'm asking for is that the overpowered skills get toned down (but still usable), and having more humans in your party encouraged.

Dont asume that someone who joins the forums at a certain date wasn't around for a while before hand, this isn't the epicentre of guildwars.

No, it's not. But when a new poster to say you bought the wrong game when I'm aiming to change PvE more towards what Guild Wars was, I'm not going to assume they played in 2005. No one who played in 2005 is going to say 'you bought the wrong game' when talking to people who dislike the power creep and overpowered builds.

The problem is that players are so accustomed to using H/H that it is all but impossible to change their way of thinking/playing at this point.

I have been playing from the start and do agree with most of what you are saying, I just don't agree that the skills are the problem. I believe the problem has always been Mission Design.

I'm sure you remember the original Thunderhead Keep mission. That was the fist mission that really forced players to split up inorder to win. Forced players to think as a Team rather than just a Mob. That only lasted for a while till people complained that the mobs at the gates were overwhelmingly difficult.

What we needed from the start were missions that were designed to create more teamwork than just a mob of people vs a mob of monsters. That, and that alone, would have encouraged people to play with live parties over H/H.

My opinion in this matter is this:

You want the chalenge->get with your friends/guildies and play a balanced build (like me and my guild always do with UW, FoW, etc).

You want to get an absurd amount of money to get an expensive weapon/armor-> play gimmick builds because is the fastest way to do that.

Why you want to nerf that skills?? I don't use that gimmick builds because I don't like them, but I also don't care if the other players use them. You and me and everyone else are not oblige to use them, if someone wants to steamroll every elite area good for them, that doesn't mess with the fun I have playing GW.

In conclusion, if they nerf the gimmick or not doesn't affect me, the only thing that I get pissed off is when they nerf a skill that I use in a normal way because some players use that to make a gimmick build. (and when they nerfed some skills that I use in pve because of pvp, luckly that has finish with the pve/pve skills split)

P.S.: sorry about my bad english but I'm portuguese

Oh okay thanks for clearing that part up, understand a little by how people might get alittle upset by asking for changes for people to play together more where by;

Player perception and current population is whats also making this game differcult to play with others.

A mindset that i see quite a few times on this forum and alot in the game is the the following;

All pug's groups suck, never play with them, always hero/hench

Its never me i can do these missions fine, i don't need to group with "noobs"

This mindset is boarderline stupid, by proxy whomever i group with "sucks" right? I know this isn't true....

You sometimes get a vicious circle of everybody else thinks everyone else sucks, sad thing is the truely bad/ignorant players are never going to own up and look in the mirror.

What i wanted to say was, people are effectivly degenerating this game, skill changes/balance are only a part of the problem.

I like most suggestions, however I feel that with your proposed Shadow Form change, it should either have a health loss or a loss of all enchantments when Shadow Form ends. Both would be a bit too much perhaps.

And with Save Yourselves! giving it an energy cost of 5 is a bit too much as well. I think connecting it to Strength and giving it a recharge would be enough. Of course the armor gain scaled according to the strength level sounds fine by me. As Cry of Pain being tied to Fast Casting

I wouldn't really know about Soul Reaping. I don't play a Necromancer that often and for heroes I usually use one necro. But I do know that SR is extremely powerful in PvE.....but that is coming from someone with a Ritualist as main character.

This has to win an award as the most retarded thought ever.. Sorry Akantos, but I would expect better from a Guru mod.

The problem.. you've admitted that everyone and their dog uses h/h to do PvE.. and then bitch about PvE skills that heroes and hench don't have access to..

Either the PvE skills are overpowered (in which case mass PuG's everywhere would be just CRYING out EVERYWHERE for those people with those skills), or the VASTLY inferior heroes with no access to PvE skills at all, are better at PvE than a player with over powered PvE skills (according to you)... Which is it? (here's a hint, it can't be both)

Sorry but there is no way I can agree to the changes you suggest, and no it's not because I use SF, or SY, or even CoP, it's because I'm sick and fed up, of other people DICTATING how I should be playing PvE, where what *I* do in one instance has absolutely no RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING effect on what happens in ANY other instance.

And I'm so glad you aren't Anet's skill-balancer.

/not signed to infinity.

^this

I'll add my own suggestion to this suggestion for those of you who want to disagree with OP:

Don't.

Waste your time somewhere else.

On topic: I have never perma-shadowed, I do have an imbagon (but never really play it because it's boring as hell), and my main character is a Mesmer. These changes (while knee-jerk and a little overboard) wouldn't really negatively affect the style of play for myself or anyone I regularly group with. So, honestly, meh.

/undecided

Well as far as i see this thread is about balancing PVE skills not PVE itself. Nerf them too much and you'll throw many players into PVE void. There would be not a chance to do any elite area like UW/FOW for sins or mesmers for example without big and active guild - they aren't welcome classes in PVE.

And about PVE i doubt it could be balanced in a way that would make at least most players happy.

[[Save Yourselves] was introduced as a PvE version of the original [[Watch Yourself], but ANet multiplied the armor bonus by 5. Just reduce the armor bonus to +40 or +50 in my opinion, or put it on a +3-5/Tactics, or +1-3/Tactics and Strength. Adding a recharge to limit the adrenline gain wouldn't hurt, but I see no need to put in an energy cost.

You could still maintain [[Shadow Form] with your proposed change, but not easily. Change it to Elite Form(no arcane echo) and add 30 second(or more, depending on recharge) skill disable for giggles. Probably drop the lose all enchantments clause with this change. This suggestion is not a serious one. Just pointing out it could be maintained. I don't play Assassin.

No comment on CoP; don't play Mesmer, nor do I have interest in joining CoP groups.

Limit the EotN cosumables to 1.

Off topic: The problem with hard mode is level design and build construction. ANet took the easy way by making more numbers for mobs, rather than designing team builds and level design to increase difficulty. Avarre has already covered this, though.

The existence of a better alternative doesn't change a good build to a bad one. Besides, [[Eviscerate] spam can be fun. Not to mention great single target DPS.

My problem with these threads is that starts with someone saying "Lets make PvE more challenging" but then it somehow ends in nerfs to what the most used builds are, regardless of they really being breaking the game or not.

UB was an easy example of a game breaking skill. Reduced all professions to either Ursan or Monk, killed faster than anything else and was more robust than anything else, with 0 build creativity or team planning.

Making PvE more challenging requires more than nerfing skills to PvP levels of power, because while monsters are dumb and dumber, they have loads of health, more energy regen, higher armor, higher attribute ranks and in HM attack, move, cast and recharge faster. They also have monster only skills and sometimes are supported by area effects.

We can kill them cause we have our own PvE only skills and we have brains.

Additionally we understand the game better now. I remember seeing a video from a guild, Eternal Pariah or something, that was at a time rank 1 in GvG, getting slaughtered in Sorrows Furnace. Who the hell gets slaughtered in SF nowadays, PvE skills or not?

A bit offtopic: the only way to make GW more challenging: ADD MORE CONTENT! No nerf or skill change will make the game challenging again.

I think that easiet way to make HM PVE more challenging is to make them less predictable - for example in Prophecies Stone Summit Crusher has always same skill bar. Let's make some random magic when he spawns:

33% chance that he would have Stone Summit Crusher skill set,
33% chance that he would have Igneous Ettin skill set,
33% chance that he would have Mursaat Warrior skill set (of course without monster skills).

Enemy AI for all those skill sets was already coded. That would be easiest way to make HM PVE more challenge - for each group you never would be able to predict which skills they would carry (no more imba build for specified area at least not in HM).

I'm sorry but all this "balance" crap has gone on for too long. How do any of those skills affect the game or your enjoyment in any way?

So you would rather get rid of the ONLY thing that people actually group up for, just because it's "not balanced." Removing shadow form is only going to kill off the remaining PUG comunity in the game, other than of course the elitist PvE players that sit in kamadan and trade minipets.

The last thing this game wants is to be abandoned as a result of peoples enjoyment being spoilt. Its about FUN. Who are you to criticise what other people enjoy doing?
If you want to run balanced or whatever, im sure you can find some like-minded players and have a blast! But do not expect people to agree with your suggestions just because you don't like the fact that a "noob" has expensive armor. Nobody is stopping you from playing how YOU want to. Even if shadow form or cry of pain or save yourselves gets nerfed.. Will you be so satisfied seeing PUGs removed from this game entirely? or the 1 hour fissure of woe runs that don't make it past the forge master in normal mode. #

You don't seem to realise that there are other people involved.. I'm sure if it was me making a thread like this, people would say find another game. Trying to force people to play the way you want is not going to fix anything.

End of the day... Who cares how other people play the game. The economy is in NO threat at all so what does it matter?


/NOT SIGNED.

Economy? Whats that?!? :P

People seem to want more challenges, but its a bit hard. I've like over 4000 hours played. Whats left for me in PvE? Other than some title hunting, some skin hunting, there's nothing else... only the enjoyment of playing with friends and kill some monsters.

When a fire burns, even when it's put out, the damage is done. I don't see any hope for GW1. I'm thinking that GW2 will be the fresh start we need.

Whatever they decide to do with PvE skills and consets will never really affect me, considering I've always played alone even before heroes. The groups you met back then were horribly bad. Now they have PvE skills as a crutch to help them walk again. I think that was ArenaNet's idea from the start. Something to help the "casual" player see elite areas through these skills. I'd be surprised if they did anything to try to make the game the way it was now.

If people want challenges, then they can make the game more challenging. People choose to run Sabway/Dicord, they choose to use shadowform and smash their faces across their keyboards and still come out with a smile after earning 2 ectos. Nobody, i repeat nobody is forcing anybody to use these builds.

At the same time, people choose to run balanced with their heroes. They choose to do what they want because that is their way of having fun. So why should people be forced to play this way? This game is one step away from becoming a singleplayer tbh so how other people play really doesn't affect my style.

There is little enjoyment left in this game, so lets keep both parties happy?

Of course new content would be nice, but i don't see that happening soon.

I agree with most of that.

But we need to be careful. As long a skill doesn't kill the fundamentals of guild wars, its ok. A "press to win" button wouldn't interfere with other people way of playing, but it wouldn't be good.

UB killed the fundamentals of guild wars. Shadow Form made farming to easy (I like it more now, you are invincible but cant kill shit, like all worthless tanks out there).

Its not about taking away fun from other players or trying to enlarge your epeen, its about making it so it isn't such a 1234 skill mashing.

I don't know if this has been posted (i'm to lazy to read the 4 pages :P)

I agree with almost everything...except SY,

mine-

3 sec recharge, 5 energy, and 12 adrenaline (all other party members gain +100 armour for 3...6 sec)


making it (i believe) unspamable and a semi quick recharge

knowing me this is a REALLY BAD idea but meh, i think its kind of ok.

This. I Like this post because its simple and to the point.

Let's others have their 'hard' game, lets people with lacking time or just on/off players run gimmicks if they want.

I can understand nerfing PvP aspects, but PvE...let players play the way they want to.

I'm not understanding why SY! needs to be nerfed so badly. It's only permanently able to be maintained 100% of the time as a warrior through the use of FGJ...oh wait...FGJ can't be maintained 100% of the time. At most, you can maintain SY! for 30 seconds with the help of Enduring Harmony to make FGJ that long.

Not to mention the amount of melee hate from mobs in PvE. Blurred Vision, blind, and blocks all hinder SY! which is the reason I don't believe it's overpowered.

If you truly believe the release of PvE-only skills is killing PvE, then the following skill should be nerfed:

-Pain Inverter - Yes, it's a gimmick because making elementalist bosses kill themselves in 1 spell isn't overpowered, right?

Pain Inverter is pretty much a staple skill in most people's bar when doing Vanquishing/HM stuff due to the fact that it makes killing mobs that deal alot of damage very easily.

No, not everyone brings Pain Inverter but it is more abused than Save Yourselves has ever been.

When we fight, the terrorists win

Can't we just play the way we want to? Use gimmicks if you want, don't if you don't want to.

I dunno why GW makes everyone wanna balance the game so badly. I've been affected by it a couple times though lol.

Probably because Pain Inverter can be brought by any caster profession and only wars and paras can maintain SY?

SY!>PI

This is comical.

First off, Arkantos wants to encourage more humans playing with humans. Thats all well and good, except last I checked, the number of people ingame is decreasing. Pugs fail, average Pug player skill for HM is pretty much nil, heroes are far more reliable. As for those in HM guilds, relatively speaking those of us who care to do HM have done it already.

Second, as has been said here before, the only way HM will be anything of a challenge is if groups have a random spawn selection. I'll drop a little hint for you here. For my HM work (Guardian, Vanquisher, etc) I never once used CoP, SY, or shadow form. And FYI, for your suggestions for Soul Reaping, they would in fact buff the last build I used for HM. It is pitifully easy to read on wiki what groups will spawn in what zone/mission and buildwarz them. Decent skill level, and the zone is done. And no, I don't count giving the level 20 atts and other retarded buffs as anything other than a lazy man's way out.

Finally, couple of people in this thread are really starting to act like borat (see HA threads if you don't know who that is), and we are really getting tired of your know-it-all attitude, and in general arrogant, stuck-up attitude. You know who you are, or at least you should if you have half the intelligence that you think you do. BTW, a 2005 join date means jack.

Actually yes they are. these gimmick builds are pretty much the only reason alot of people group with pugs anymore. ALOT rather just H/H myself included.

/not signed on all changes.

I would love to see things reverted back from PvE skills and crap like this, I never run PvE skills on my bars and I have gotten Guardian and working on Vanquisher without many issues. Only problem I see is that with the 3 campaigns and 1 expansion to the player base is WAY too spread apart for pugs to be viable all the time, but heroes do the trick (and they can't bring PvE skills anyways )

I usually go back to proph and do random missions with actual pugs (even thought I have it done already) because there are only so many places left with ACTUAL people wanting to party up for missions.

Arky...these changes will kill PvE. People are not going to go back to doing elite areas with balanced teams if balanced teams take 2 hours and risk getting rolled in the process. Urgoz and the Deep were dead zones before ursan, and after. Then they were reborn with the factions change. If you remove these "gimmick builds" people will no longer run these areas unless they belong to a guild that does them a different way. Notice that your guild uses an Imbagon as part of their Urgoz clear. If you remove that, your physicalway team build will suffer. Your guild also uses consumables for their urgoz clear. Remove them and that's another hit in the groin of your guild's daily foray into the Warren. Your changes break every FUN way of completing elite areas. It's not FUN to waste 2 hours of your time for another Urgoz's flatbow and 6 amber. These changes will do very little other than drive more and more people to farm UW/FoW/dungeons with the STILL-OVERPOWERED-BY-YOUR-STANDARDS 600/smite build and will continue to make money. It will be a farmer's game. Removing triple-necro hero builds will keep people from being able to efficiently and reliably vanquish many areas of the game, and people are so used to the seamless play of heroes and henchmen that they'd probably rather quit this 4 year old game with a vaporware sequel and play something else than waste their time grinding the hell out of their HoMs.

In case you can't get the hint from that:

/unsigned.

That said: I vanquish with hero/hench and only one or two of the sabway necros. I usually take the MM and SS because I Vanquish with my warrior and i like barbs/MoP with minions. I use henchman healers and Gwen with her very nice VoR build is a staple in my vanquishing lineup. In areas with not many corpses, I take an earth warder or smite monk depending on the enemies. I don't run cryway...I BiP for cryway pugs on occasion in Urgoz but i'm trying to get my guildies/allies to be more familiar with Urgoz before I try introducing the TAM physicalway team build to them, which requires a little more knowledge of the area. And there it is: these gimmick builds allow inexperienced players to get the hang of and actually play in the elite areas without getting frustrated and quitting altogether.