Balancing PvE

DoA is dead because of lack of skill. By taking away Ursan, DoA died. You see the pattern here? Or have you not been reading the past 6 pages worth of thread.

Talking l33t with 'u' instead of 'you' and 'r' instead of 'or' doesn't make you look intelligent, neither does insulting people.

Not every character can use every skill. I mean, they can, but it's useless. And critical sin with triple shot... Why would you waste a sin by giving him a bow instead of a WS Scythe or DB/MS? That is, if we are still talking about effectiveness.

Go ahead, use Selfless Spirit on a W/Mo or Aura of Holy Might on a Necromancer. Or Save Yourselves on a Mesmer. Or Shadow Sanctuary on a Warrior. Or Elemental Lord anywhere except for E/x or Me/E, because anything else is a waste of profession? I mean, Me/E is a waste, too, but it's a good kind of waste. Fast Casting helps Ele nukes, but N/E wouldn't work as good with SR to power energy pool.

Why thank you. You tried to insult me, but I don't think of myself so high. I am right, but everything else isn't wrong.

Inexperienced players can't "roll through" elite areas. Join a bunch of cryway urgoz HM pugs and tell me how fast they are and if they even make it. Pugs are a 50/50 failure rate and the ones that don't fail take forever to complete with DP across the board.

Just because sMs rapes these areas with these builds doesn't mean every jack and jill you find with the skill bar can do the same. Every build that WORKS in these elite areas can "roll" these elite areas in an experienced team. You see the fastest times completed screenshot thread and think that's the norm. No, it's not. It's the exception. Take away speed clear from UW and your average completion time is 2 hours. Take away imbagons and the average completion is up to 3 hours. Only the hardcore ELITISTS will stick around for that long just for a slim chance at a decent payoff.

If you take away the builds that actually get inexperienced players into the elite area,s they'll stop playing those areas altogether because they're not aware of the alternate builds.

Sorry for not reading your previous post, then. And no, I'm not an elitist.

You said by my logic, those skills are overpowered. You didn't directly say I said it, so forgive me.

4 scythe warriors in PvE isn't going to cause nearly as much damage as cryway does. Cry of pain is overpowered, aura of holy might is not. No, the mobs won't cry, but for various reasons said in various threads for the past year, balance is an issue in PvE, whether you realize it or not.

Thank you for telling me the definition. Now, by that definition, point out where I am crying, please. You clearly still do not understand what it means. This is not a QQ thread. If it was, my post would have been a lot less detailed, and it most likely wouldn't have been constructive. I would have probably just said 'OMG THESE SKILLZ R RLY OVERPOWERED NERF DEM NOW!'. But no, I gave a detailed, constructive explanation on everything I said. That's more than most of the posts in this thread, including yours.

There's a difference between inexperienced and bad. People in pugs are usually both. Inexperienced players who are decent and somewhat intelligent will be able to play gimmick builds with ease. Bad players are just dumb and generally fail at most things.

You're right, an experienced team will be able to roll through just about anything. Do you know why? Because they're experienced. Generally when you're experienced at something, you excel at it. Your average times are for players who aren't that great at the game. Decent (not good, not "elitist") players will be able to do those areas quicker. I don't know what point you're trying to prove by saying bad players are slow at beating areas.

They aren't aware of alternate builds because of these gimmick builds. New players are forced to run gimmick builds. The playerbase is getting less and less skilled because the old players who were good at balanced are leaving, and new players are only running gimmicks. New players will never know how to run a build that actually takes skill.

Great Arkantos , now we see your face
"If having common sense means you're an elitist, sure."
Rest of us who disagree with you dont have common sense , ok.
"You also need to learn what QQ is, and what an elitist is. I'm not elitist, I just happen to be in the minority of players that give a shit about balance in PvE."
Translation : People who doesnt think like you doesnt give a shit about balance in PvE .

Misunderstand posts and cut parts of it to complete lose the sense of the sentence doesnt make u smart either , and i didnt insult you dude , chill . I just said that you failed trying to prove me wrong.

I cant really understand how you STILL misunderstand my post , unbelievable. SEE THE " " " BALANCE " " " that Arkantos want on #1 thats what i am talking about , is not a balance is a NERF so that other classes wont EVER HAVE THE CHANCE ( i dont care if u think that a Sin with a bow is stupid and so on ) to USE IT. The other Allegiance skills still can be used with some effect , im not saying a W/D with AoHmight is PRO or is not , but at least HE CAN USE IT WITH SOME EFFECTS , GOT IT ?.

God i really hope that caps help yoo to understand my point.

Is not about right or wrong , is about understand a point and not cut parts of a post to completely CHANGE what it says.

Read the post I quoted, and then read the post that person quoted. You'll be sure to find out I never implied that people who are disagreeing with me don't have common sense. I'm sure most people disagreeing indeed do have common sense.

And again, no. You don't have to think like me to give a shit about PvE balance. However, people who don't think these skills should be changed don't care about PvE balance. You stop caring about balance once you think very overpowered skills shouldn't get toned down.

Yes, they're FORCED TO USE gimmick builds because otherwise they'll fail. It's not because they won't be accepted, it's because they FAIL.

You keep saying the same thing I'm saying but making it an argument for your case. There are bad players, and there are inexperienced players...but inexperienced players by your definition are BAD. You assume that players who prefer to run these gimmick builds are bad players who can't run anything else. Not true, not by a long shot. Saying people are bad at the game because they can't run with an experienced team and be a seamless addition to it is just ridiculous. People are only GOOD in the eyes of other players if they know what those other players want from them and deliver it.

This argument is stupid. You want to take away the only builds that some players can run. These builds get new players involved in team play in elite areas. They don't always roll the areas. Experienced players roll the areas. Experienced players that CAN run non-gimmick builds and still roll the areas but choose not to because it's slower. Inexperienced pugs cannot match or even come close to the times that the experienced guilds have been posting. So your argument is MOOT. Your whole argument against gimmick builds is that it allows inexperienced(sorry, BAD) players to waltz through elite areas, and I've shown you insurmountable evidence to the contrary. Stop taking the diamonds in the rough with their super-fast runs and applying them to the entire GW playerbase because frankly it's idiotic.

Gimmick builds have nothing to do with PvE balance. It has to do with keeping players playing the game because without them, you'd see a mass exodus to WoW or something else.

They'll fail because they're bad, and bad players shouldn't be doing elite areas/hard mode. That is just common sense. If something is supposed to be hard, you're supposed to be good.

No, I don't think inexperienced players are bad. Everyone who plays Guild Wars was inexperienced, but not everyone who plays Guild Wars has been bad. You're inexperienced when you first try and complete an area and fail. You're bad when you fail after multiple times, and do not try to learn from your mistakes. And no, I don't think players who use gimmick builds are bad. I do, however, think players who only use gimmick builds and fail with balanced builds are bad, though.

Yes, these gimmick builds do introduce players to elite areas. The problem is, these players are introduced to it with an overpowered gimmick. They don't truly learn anything about the area. Once introduced by gimmicks, they still don't know jack, and will still run gimmicks, and failing at balanced when they try. Players should be running balanced first, than gimmicks. At least that way they learn about the area, and (hopefully) become a more skilled player.

How do gimmick builds have nothing to do with balance? Seriously, think that one over.

After reading through most of this, I have to say most of the posters clearly have no idea what they are talking about, and are simply quoting those that do. Forget about your ego and don't post when you have nothing to positively contribute to the thread. Now if we all stop with personal attacks, most of you might come to the conclusion that opinions cannot by definition be wrong, only "facts" that most people don't realize are their own opinions. Why this intro? This is one of the best suggestion threads I've seen in a very long time, and most likely it will be closed tomorrow because of posters acting like five year olds.

The overarching problem to PvE balance is similar to that in PvP; skills that do not require significant ability to play, which have similar power to those that do require ability, are preferred due to ease of use. This thread originally focused upon [[shadow form], [[save yourselves], and [[cry of pain]. The common thread between these skills is that none of them requires anything more than competence to play effectively. As for the Arkantos' proposed changes, I approve with the exception of Cry of Pain. Requiring an interrupt is a good change, however, decreasing the damage is not the way to go. The cause for the abuse of this skill is that the damage only relies on having a Mesmer Hex (for AoE rather than single target). Changing the skill so that it only deals damage on a successful interrupt takes care of this, and as such the skill could actually benefit from an increase in damage (based upon Fast Casting as suggested). Otherwise, the other two skills are excellent as Arkantos' detailed.

Other than the squabbling, the major argument regarding skill balance in this thread is regarding heroes. Heroes, when compared to a skilled human player, will not play most builds effectively. Many players want to be able to complete difficult areas without having to PUG or be in an active guild or alliance. It is essentially impossible to balance these two, as heroes will either fail due to their poor AI and skillset, or rely upon skills which they use effectively, for which a player can far exceed. The perfect example of this is [[Warrior's Endurance]. This skill allows the normally abysmal Warrior heroes to reliably deal large packets of damage through the use of Scythes, [[Power Attack], and other 5 energy attack skills. In the hands of a skilled player, the ability to spam Power Attack on recharge while still inflicting crucial knockdowns as well as deep wound is extremely powerful, especially when combined with [[Strength of Honor] and [[Order of Pain]. The lesson learned is that nearly any effective hero build that is comparable to having a human ally, could easily be played more effectively by a skilled human player.

In contrast, compare a hero's usage of another highly effective Warrior elite, [[Primal Rage], to that of Warrior's Endurance. Odds are, the hero will die a horrible death. Sure, in the hands of an experienced player, upon taking severe damage a cancel stance such as [[Rush] would be used, but heroes don't know to use that. I have yet to create or see a hero build that uses Primal Rage for any real effect. What's important is that both Primal Rage and Warrior's Endurance can be used effectively by players, who are smarter than heroes.

There is really only one solution that will allow heroes to play on a human level without using rigged skills that shouldn't exist as they do. Improve the hero AI. Easier said than done? Unlikely to happen with only one programmer? Not worth the effort in a dying game? Maybe. Just remember, just because PvE is dying, doesn't mean it's dead.

Subtle.

I never was insulting you by giving you some gameplay tips. I'm sorry if you are reading way to much into my previous post. I am not a troll in this thread, no matter how much you want me to be.

@Tenebrae, stop trolling. I especially find the irony in the "God i really hope that caps help yoo to understand my point." line.


No one in this thread is QQing. No one in this thread is "elitest." No one in this thread is "retarded." EVERYBODY in this thread is stubborn.

Because I like playing my sin with a bow and bow attack skills?

Well, how about that little old thing called enjoyment? Over the years that I have played (since the final betas before Proph), I have seen many, many people here dismiss this idea of "personal choice." However, this idea is one of the integral backbones of the RPG genre - the choice of how we wish to play our characters, and the choice of how we wish to individualize those characters from the rest of the pack. This is one of the reasons why I choose to play an Assassin with a bow (and have Trip Shot on the bar), and to play a Warrior prime as an Archer BM build.

It's about how I get my enjoyment out of the playing the game.

Like I said, I remember the days when the design of the game was to have people play through the PvE content of the game, then use what they learned and unlocked to move on to PvP, which was the "elite area" of the day. PvE skills and consumables didn't hurt the game, the game has simply mutated, as games are oft to do, into something different. If anything hurt the game, the nature of how human being act towards one another, either in RL or in a game is more to blame than anything Anet developed.

{/sarcasm}And honestly, if you want balance go play *insert name of a balanced game here* instead of GW. {/endsarcasm}
Sorry, but I get so tired of hearing this statement uttered by any side. When I bought GW, I was looking for a good new RPG game that harkened back to the party-based games I grew up on that allowed me the freedom to play as I wanted. I didn't care whether it was single player or multi-player, and one of the main reasons I decided on GW was the free to play philosophy. So far, Anet has gotten closer to the mark than any game I have played in a long while, which is why I am as addicted to it now, nearly four years later, as when I first started.

In terms of balance, yes I would like to see a balanced game where solo farming builds are impossible to run - if a party size is eight, the area should require that, whether it be eight humans or one human with H/H. But since there are players out there who enjoy playing the game in that manner, then I will respectively decline to press the point. The game I most enjoy playing is the one that allows people to play the way they find the most enjoyable and to get the kind of challenge out of it they want.

If a player wants to steamroll The Deep or Urgoz because they find it fun, then the more power to them. I shall continue to exercise my freedom of choice and play in the manner in which I find the most enjoyment out of the game. That's all the balance I need.

Hanok Odbrook

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I have not been in the game from 05 but have been here since Factions. Lets face it, does it really matter how fast we go through Hard Mode? HM was implemented by Anet to give us some kind of a challenge while waiting for GW2. Same thing with GWEN. It just happens that the community was able to use their heads and come up with fast and easy builds to do HM. I thought it was nice of Anet to make SF some what usable. I personally never used it except for farming greens. The health spike at the end was a waste of time to use in a party, oh and i remember that sins weren't allowed in groups until SF was made so that it could be upheld permanently. Also lets not forget that Anet was the ones who made this skill what is today. So really in essence you are QQing about how its not fair that your little tank can't compete for a group spot when a sin has perma SF. I sure as heck didn't hear you QQing for sins when they weren't let into groups cause they suck.

So you agree that hard mode is supposed to be a challenge, but you don't agree that these overpowered skills need to be toned down? As long as these skills are at their current state, hard mode will not be a challenge.

No, I'm not QQing that I can't get into groups as a tank. I don't run tanks, nor do I need them. And no, I didn't say anything when sins weren't welcomed in pugs. Know why? Because pugs are bad, and I had friends/a guild that let me use my sin because they weren't as simple minded as most GW players and knew they weren't bad.

Bolded relevant part. Playing a warrior as a tank invalidates arguement.

With UB everyone was doing it. Now it isn't. That means the skill level required for these gimmick skills is higher (even if only slightly).

What people say about SY! can be said about any shout or even the paragon profession.

I know I can do DoA 2 payers+6 heroes without SY!, but it will be alot harder.


Wasn't at you in particular. But there is a lot "If you don't think this need to be nerfed you just are a noob that needs it to do stuff".

I bet those players u are aiming at, at most do UWSC and that's it.

A good way to increase skill player would be by giving heroes and henchman good start builds, so maybe people could copy cat them, instead of copy cat'ing healing breeze or full healing monks.

Yes. Because mashing one skill every 12 seconds means you are good at the game. Wrong.

All u do in gws is mashing buttons.

I'm a defender of hybrids characters. All my teams play like that. Melee does damage. Monks heal AND protect. Mid liners have utility and so on.

I think any team using tanks are gimping themselves.

The problem in cryways aren't the sf tanks. It is CoP huge AoE.

And everyone in here can say otherwise but discord necros or SY! imbagon teams won't kill any faster.

Discord teams use hybrid heroes that are actually good at energy management, opposed to every other hero out there (bar rangers and paragons).

SY! allows for a more relaxed play, I admit. And you can be more careless, its a fact. But you are far from unbeatable.

Want to do a nerf - nerf the amount of armor. Changing SY! to warriors only, is just killing valid options.

And for god's sake, bring back watch yourself to what it was before the +armor per certain amounts of hits.

Resorting to technicalities to fuel arguments is a sure sign you've lost.

If you can provide a valid reason why hitting Cry of Pain every 12 seconds, takes more skill than developing a balanced team build to clear the same area, then completing said area. Then I may use my time to reply.

I was changing my reply. Its late here.

And once you get ur balance team build and do it once you will always do it, unless u screw some fixed aggro.

I actually liked playing Thunderhead keep when it was hard. I played it all the time because of the challange; after the nerf I hated it. Being able to take a picinic during a mission cause of how dumbed down it got was not fun.

I agree with Arkantos Original Post. I personally believe there are some other things that need to be tonned down and such but thats for another time.

GW1 is too far gone for these adjustments to have too much of an effect but it doesnt mean they shouldnt be done.

Easy buttons are never good for a game. And they are the reason so many people are bored of Guild Wars, thus making the game DEAD.

I think part of the reason some (note how I said SOME and NOT all) people are so against the adjustments and therefore against promoting more skilled poeple and play is that fact that they are afraid they wont be able to do these areas anymore. (also note I didnt say they couldnt do it I said they MIGHT think they wont be able to)

Another fact is there will ALWAYS be bad people in every game no matter how long these people play. Thus there will always be some PuGs that fail dismally. So saying PuGs suck just H/H is only true if the players are bad and players are bad because of the the easy buttons installed and if they were gone then they are bad because of lack of a challenge for them in the game, so they can never get good at it.

We can hope that Anet learned from this and will bring back the Skill>Time for GW2 and KEEP IT THAT WAY.

You dont get good in a game by beating up weak retards... you get better and enjoy it more by playing against people better/on par with you, until you are superior/at their level.

They sure are helping it or more would of left long ago making a very dead game.This is ok for you as you are in great guild with a good active Alliance.There are those of us who aren't in very active guilds or alliances.

What really is killing pve is all the title grind and the lack of content.I would say that most don't want title grind.EoTN is just one big title grind once you finesh it.I rather loath it and they want this game played with groups why the solo quests.EoTN is guinia pig for GW2 well part of it is.

Your suggestions are great way of killing PvE and I have been playing before release.The change to SF is even more nerfed than the pvp version I believe [shadow form] and necros haven't been the same since SR capped.I don't see the other skills being that powerfull as there are still groups forming with them atleast they are less powerfull than any Wow skill that lets you solo.

Which wouldn't be the case if ANet actually did something about them early.

I don't know what guild you think I'm in, but I'm currently in a guild with 5 other friends, no alliance.

Read my suggestion and read the PvP version. I believe you're wrong. My suggestion to SR is only hurting groups with 3+ necros. If anything, it's a buff to 1/2 necro parties.

Also, GW != WoW

One of the biggest problems you face Arkantos is that changing the skills won't change the game or how people play it.

If you nerf skills one of three things happens.

1) players try to find away to play exactly as they used to but with a different skill/build
2) players quit using that skill at all and move onto some other 'gimick' build
3) players that didn't use the affected skills shrug and continue on as normal

What you want is a change that makes player WANT to use a skill/build and battle through a mission/dungeon once again.

Where is your positive pull? Your hook that brings players on the fence over and has them saying, "Yea! I can't wait to try this build and clear a zone/mission/dungeon!".

What do you mean if Anet did something about them early to what.?I thought you were in Ractoth's guild SMS.SF is about the same as you propose along with pvp yours higher energy cost longer casting time with shorter recharge.My necro hasn't been the same since the cap

and GW=WoW is PVE skills at thier current state they are no where near as to what powerfull wow skills are.

If ANet did something about balance in PvE, people wouldn't be leaving the game, and it wouldn't be as bad as it is now. And no, SMS died months ago.

The buff I suggest for shadow form makes it so it can recharge in 34 seconds and it can last up to 25 seconds. How is that anything with the PvP version? Also, my suggestion removes the cap, so I don't see why you bothered mentioning that.

Wait, what? You're saying GW=WoW, than you're saying WoW has more overpowered skills?

People leave the game mostly because they realise that after beating the campaigns the only thing left is title grind because there is no new content. Most people on my friends list left because of that , not poor skill balancing.

Ou God dont u have a limit ? why the hell u put so much emotions on a damn game ?. Look it with perspective , just an example of SY , there are some steps where this skill could be :
A: Useless
B: Not bad but others do better
C: Good for some zones or game style
D: Good always , a "must have" on most X or /X prof build
E: Overpowered and most wanted ( if u dont have this skill at good rank you are out )
F: I win button

I dont really think that theres a skill that is on F state but ok. If you think that some skill is on F state ( like UB was ) and you really think it needs to be ner.... i mean "balanced" why can you just go ONE STEP DOWN , not all the way down ?. Theres something between black and white , you know ?. Arkantos uses so much words just to avoid writing "SY is overpowered and i only want warriors to use it" wich is what he really thinks , wich is taking the skill from the F state ( or E ) to the A state for ALL profs except warrior. Not fair sorry , thats reality.

@HawkofStorms : I really find the irony in your comment about you telling someone not to troll . You were doing fine till then ... it was like reading a poster that says "no posters allowed" , dont give advices to anyone ( wow , double irony , damn im on a roll ).

Again, posters can disagree on opinion without calling each other names. Stop doing that.

You keep insulting people (you are the one inputing "emotion" into this, Arkantos was purely anayltic when this started. Everybody personally attacking him is when he became defensive).

Perhaps in PvP, but this is PvE we are talking about. How a player enjoys one mode does not necessarily translate to the other. That's why PvP's dependency on the PvE portion of the game was severed long ago, and we are now seeing more PvE specific content that just would not work in PvP.

What you state here is more of a PvPer's outlook - PvEers (at least the ones I have known through my many long years) don't base their enjoyment of a game on being equal or superior in skill to other players.

Good point here, as proven by the history of nerfs and skill balances throughout GW's history. DoA is a good example - after the initial newness of the area wore off, it saw very little action until UB came about, and players figured out how to use the skill to benefit completing the area. Now it is a ghost town again - Anet eliminated one problem without fixing the root of the problem itself, so nothing ends up being solved.

That's really one of those blanket statements that are wrong just as much as they are right. No one can really say for certain why players are leaving the game (from what I can see, we have more players today than when we started), and I have seen many, many varying reasons why some of the people I know no longer play on a regular basis.

It again comes down what one is looking for in the game. By limiting options, one limits the number of players in that game. By providing as many options for game play as possible, one increases the potential player base. The nerfing of skills and builds naturally limits the number of choices players have in choosing how to play the game, therefore will decrease the viable player base.

In my view, it is much better to give players as many viable options for a character and let them choose their desired level of challenge based upon that. Just like choosing to explore an 8-member area with a 4-member team creates an additional challenge, so to does our choice of which skills to bring to an area. The addition of Heroes, PvE skills, and Consumables, as all increased the number of options we have when playing the game. It is up to us to choose the type of balance we want by choosing to play in the manner in which we have the most fun.

Hanok Odbrook

Sorry but lol. Talking about PvE and balance is a farce. If you wanted PvE to be balanced, remove Duncan the Black's damage-return "skill". Make it so that spirits in Slaver's Exile can't overlap like they do BLATANTLY. Make it so PvE mobs have to follow the same rules as the players. Give them better AI. PvE skills only make it so that the players can stand a chance against these super-powered monster skills and inherent attributes and have fun with it. I don't think that constantly beating against a brick wall against a broken monster skill is very fun. If you remove PvE skills that make PvE fun again, remove the monster skills and imba inherent attributes that Anet felt were necessary to add "challenge" to the game.
I'll repeat my strong point: Pugs and inexperienced players don't "roll" elite areas. They hardly even complete them without serious issues. So your entire point is moot.

Question: what do you think these players you see looking for cryer, sf tank, etc etc are doing?

My answer: team work, they are playing with other players.

If this thread is to nerf skills so players will play together. Then it does not serve any purpose because those players are already forming team and playing together.

If the game is made "harder", and shadow form is not maintainable anymore, what do you tell all the assassin players when they ask to join your elite mission group? It will become even harder for players to get group. It will be switch back to only the "elite few" will be able to play in elite missions/maps. Hence defeating any purpose of promoting team work.

"words in brackets" may have different definitions view by different people.

Arkantos, sorry, I know my posts are not exactly skill-change related, but it is pretty hard if you limit your thread just to discuss change of the skills you want change, like it is a set thing, where in fact its not set at all. There are players who do play other builds making their own game as fun as possible for themselves. Why do you think I take Zenmai and Anton in my team for?

I see what you mean, and that will probably be the case if the only change would be to tone down overpowered skills. That's why I really like to see more elite skills and hopefully non-elite skills improved per class. So that a group has more viable options: a warrior using A is just as efficient as an assassin using B or Dervish C, etc.
I think it would be nice to be able to join groups with any class like that and not having to have a certain rank. I honestly believe that, slicing some overpowered skills of the top and improving unused ones to a level where they're strong valid options so builddiversity is promoted, is the way to do this and make the game more challenging. But maybe I'm just thinking too rosy.

Back to track after my little rant in my last post.

If skills and mechanics are changed, I think they should be tuned for more tactical use.
One such thing is to make CoP only do damage on interrupt (perhaps AoE interrupt like CoF).
Another change is to only damage foes hexed by a mesmer hex and remove one mesmer hex from target (shatter hex with AoE damage and interrupt).
Edit: just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, on each damaged target a mesmer hex is removed. So for use of several CoP several hexes need to be on the foes. This would require some hex stacking.
This would call for some thoughtful use of the skill instead of blind nuking.
And opens some new posibilities.

Regarding SY, I think the skill might last longer (around 10 secs for example) but have a significant cooldown (30/45 secs). Adrenaline can be lowered.
That way it could still give protection when needed (pressured monks, huge AoE damage) while not giving 24/7 protection.

Last Shadow Form.
I really don't know how to change it.
Being able to solo tank is something A-net doesn't mind, but the build causes some problems. The main solution would be to add untargeted or non-spell enchantment removement in some areas, making it less efficient for a solo player to work there.

However, one needs to understand that PvE skills are one of the reasons people still team with other human players. Heroes might be stupid but give a lot of advantages (no afk, no leaving, not bringing wrong builds, very good triggering skills on certain game conditions). PvE skills give the unorganised human player advantage.
And sure it can be abused by the organised few, but how many of the high-end PvE guilds which are able to really abuse them are still around?

Therefore, if something deserves the first change it's consumables.
Not a single one, but the combination.
They buff a party too much when combined and give them advantage over any foe in NM and HM. The only exception I can think of is DoA HM with the environmental effect and maybe Slavers.
I've played enough NM and HM to know the difference and HM with a cons set is in many cases easier than NM without them. I doubt that's the purpose of consumables.

This was what made me dislike this thread.

What you mean is "I dont want people to run the 3 necro heroes".

A fine tuned discordway is actually a prime example of hybrid characters and redundancy. They have offensive firepower, some along with healing, others along with protecting, others with utility and shutdown.

They are used instead of other heroes, because other than Paragon and ranger heroes that also have passive ways of energy management, all other heroes suck hard at it (some mesmer builds don't). And melee heroes AI is pathetic.

SY! is powerful and allows for too many mistakes? Yes. Then reduce armor gained to 40 or 60.

Also, I never played cryway, but it seems to me its just another tank and spank, using heavy consumables. I'm ok to remove tank and spank from the game, but truth is, no one complained about old obby tank and spank teams. PPl only laughed at them cause they were slower and frail.

My hopes though, lie in GW2. GW was a very nice experience and a different concept in MMORPG or MMOCRPG.

Hope anet learned with their mistakes and can come with a better version of GW. Just killing time till D3 and GW2, really.

These are much more acceptable changes. I agree with most of what u said.

Changing without outright destroying the skills or reducing the options.

How can you doubt that? For me, it is pretty obvious reason they added them. To make HM titles (and GWAMM) doable by every, umm, dedicated player regardless of skill.

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WoW imba is being mentioned. However, there is one thing: in WoW, you always get imba too late. Gear that makes X easy is usually reward for doing X. By time you are imba enough to break area X there is no point in doing it anymore, but you got just enough imba to try Y (which was impossible without rewards from X) It works insanely well as carrot.

GW does not work this way. In GW, imba breaks game. In WoW it *makes* game.

I wonder how GW would work if PvE skills were reward for doing elite missions.

Thats the key , just lower the skill power/viability 1 step down , not ALL the way down to destroy it or dramatically reduce the options. The balance Jos wrote to SY is good , last 10 sec , reuse 30 .... even last like its now , reuse 12 or 15 sec. If u want a 24/7 prot from SY then ull need 2 or 3 ppl with that skill to sync well.

SF is pretty hard to balance , is not a stealth but you can get close to it. Theres somethin that is pretty clear , you cant take out the pros of SF without taking out the contra ( or at least part of it ). To make it even harder its an ELITE skill so that if you nerf it too much will stop being elite . So imho there are some things to watch about this skill :
- God mode ( except for touch skills and untargeted spells/skills )
- Duration ( being able to keep it always on or not )
- Damage reduction while using it ( or even end the SF if you damage someone )
- HP loss when you lose it
Now the 4th point is totally broken , meaning if you lose shadow form you have impressively high chances to DIE fast so .... if you try to ner .... i mean balance shadow form you must boost something a little. Breaking a skill its easy ( hello FGJ pvp ) and we dont need to explain . Balancing some skills is harder but please .... dont call it "balance" when you really mean nerf/break .

My thoughts.

I'm not much of a farmer, so i haven't got much of an opinion on this one. It pretty much takes it back to niche boss farming, as theres no way you could 'tank and spank' with the chance of your tank blowing up in longer fights in tougher mobs. But it's a stupid skill.


I like this change, thumbs up.


Hmmm, I just see this as overkill. With those numbers you would have to spec purely into FC just to make it viable, most mesmers I know pretty much run 10 FC max. Even Cry of Frustration does 42 damage at 14 dom, without the need for a mesmer hex on top of this or any title grind. The whole concept of interrupting a hexed foe as a condition just pigeon holes it into an illusion bar. I can only think of a couple of hexes that would complement your suggestion, like Arcane Conundrum and Migraine.

I think it needs to be changed, but more along the lines of making it a non stackable hex. Something like a Web of Disruption / Wastrels Worry hybrid. Just off the top of my head

10e 0.25c 12r

Hex Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. For 3 seconds target foe is hexed with Cry of Pain. When this hex ends, that foe and all foes in the area take 15...30 damage + 10 damage for each 2 ranks in the Fast Casting attribute. (max 100 dmg).

Yes sounds good, although they would have to sort out monk's hero AI after this

And yeah agree on consumables.

I think A-net underestimated the impact of consumables.
They looked at the usage of player-cons and decided to make a party-wide one.

Since the introduction of EotN there have been several builds that have been nerfed, the most visible being ursan.
I'll repeat myself, Ursan Blessing was not the main problem, most teams crumbled in hard areas the moment the cons set went down.
It was the consumables that allowed an ursan team to rampage through an area smashing 1,2,1,3,1,2. And now consumables do the same, only on different builds.

My problem with consumables is that it makes HM easier than NM in a lot of situations when used together.
If someone can't beat an area NM (for HoM statue) and pop some cons they can win.
I have no problem with people doing that.
But when they enter HM, pop the same cons and breeze through it easier than NM I think it's wrong.

Same with vanquising. Someone with enough time and dedication will succeed.
I have a RL friend who plays GW and vanquished several areas as W/R using bow and pet. No cons needed, only a lot of time.

Now the real question is, does skill actually matter or did A-net intent to make GW a grinding game?
And how does this translate to GW2?