Balancing PvE

Wait, let me get this straight. My idea is retarded because if it was implemented, hard mode would be harder for people? My God, that is retarded! Thank you so much.

And why is that? Because if I was a balancer, the game would actually be balanced? Fair enough, you're entitled to your own opinion.

You don't find it a little funny that you're saying inexperienced players should be able to easily roll through hard mode elite missions?

Really?

My view, if what a player does, does not directly affect the fun of other players in Guild Wars its not unbalanced. Hence there's no need for any nerf, we probably need those effort put into changing and preventing other more pressing matter like, botting.

This guy hit the problem of all problems. He gets my vote.

That may be your view, but it's not the definition of balance.

I'm not going to quote the entirety of the thread, however there is much truth in what Arkantos has put forward. The game is in a dying state and yeah, it's pretty unbalanced.

I agree with most of the balances suggested, (being an avid user of [Save Yourselves!] on all physical characters) I still agree it needs to be fixed. And probably linked to a primary attribute to stop abuse, as should things like CoP.

Hard Mode shouldn't be a breeze, sure there are a few GW:EN areas where people struggle to H/H in HM, however any Human team with enough sense to mash skills on recharge can do them without difficulty. But overall Hard Mode Should be just that, Hard.

Another argument was "Oh but Arkantos, even you abuse these skills". Sure, why not? They're there aren't they? Just because we use them doesn't mean we don't accept they're extremely unbalanced. Not knowing Arkantos personally, however i'm pretty sure if these PvE skills were balanced, both him and his Guild would be more than capable of playing through areas, due to something called Player Skill. Which takes experience to gain and master.

Ask yourself this: Should completely unexperienced players be able to destroy Elite Areas in Hard Mode? The answer is no. You're free to disagree, but you'll be wrong.

Actually, it does affect other players. All you see is glf cryer, sf tank, etc, etc. I honestly don't understand what ppl have against toning down some ridiculously overpowered skills. It will make hard mode a bit harder which is more challenging and fun, but still very doable. It would just require more thought and teamconsult. Combined with the attempt to buff underused elites (which allows a bit more builddiversity), it would allow more flexibility so cryers and sf tanks and what not are not necessary anymore. However, as long as they exist....

Another problem is the design of most elite areas. They just call for gimmicks , especially DoA. I wish there were more SF-like areas.

Are you naturally that stupid , or you take special training for it?

I think there are two distinct problems here.
First of all the speed clears of elite areas.
Second the lack of challenge in HM.

The first is basically a farming issue and should be handled like that.
Does it bring a lot of new gold in the economy? I doubt it (remember, the base value of items including ecto is rarely over 500gp, much less on average). So it doesn't hurt the economy as bad, only for players speculating that prices will remain high.

The second is a decision for each individual team/player.
Use cons/PvE skills for a ride in the park, leave them for more challenge.

I hardly ever see skills like SF, SY and CoP used in teams I play with.
Not because we can't play them, we just don't need them. Cons? Once in a while, to avoid butchering in areas because of slight mistakes humans or heroes make. I can't help it that A-net's definition of Hard is buffing foes to insane levels instead of just randomizing the mobs and make them use more hex/conditions/protection.

Yesterday we did a vanq in Sacnoth and the only trouble we had was with the fire ele boss.
I won't tune a team just for one group and also I don't want to depend on some form of tanking.

I won't mind a nerf on SF, SY, CoP, SR or whatever, but it won't solve anything. Other broken builds will turn up.
What needs to be changed is some game mechanics, so balanced teams have advantage over gimmic.
For example, some physicals with Order of ... (the remove enchantment one) would kill most farming builds while still enabling balanced to play.

The only change I would be in favor of is changing consumables.
Make them one/two use at the time (including single-player ones).
Or make them counter each other (for example, cons 1 gives speed boost, cons 2 negates it). That way a team could use cons more tactical instead of just putting them on and rampaging the area.

PvE skills are imbalanced. All of them. They don't require attribute points. Most of them aren't profession specific. Anet should have split PvE and PvP from the beginning. Instead they created this.



Shadow form is a stupid skill. But at the present state can't kill shit by itself. Like any tank out there.

CoP is easily overpowered. Huge AoE armor ignoring damage, with a short recharge and an interrupt to boost.

Cryway, although more powerful than old tank and spank, is just a version of it (except it actually uses a good source of damage ).

SY! and Discordway have been targeted for nerf because they allow people without farming/elite guilds to finish elite areas. And that's it.

SY! only useful purpose is defending AI npcs from stupid overpowered elementalists that spam spells that deal 500+ damage a hit, in aoe if need be.

All other considerable damage is armor ignoring, to which SY! does 0!.


You have threads like this, asking for nerf of skills, but will the same persons ask for decent builds for henchmen?
Some people think that 1 player that is using 4 henchies with 480 hp and crap skills like healing breeze aren't allowed to complete HM.

Most of this thread isn't about nerfing skills that are destroying gws. Is about nerfing skills that allow people to play in small groups, not requiring elite guilds to do stuff.

Requiring elite guilds to do stuff is called GvG. Go there for a challenge you will never find in PvE.

No, your idea is retarded because for it to be viable would need A-net to basically remake pve by lowering mobs level cap to a max of 20, lower their hp/attribute points/armor/ spawning number, remove mobs only skills, hp passives buffs/dmg and defense passives boosts some monsters have. Also it would be a necessity in such scenario the redoing of most builds/AI in order to have enemies switch target more often and operate with decent builds. Since this game has another year and a half of living before gw2 is out; A-net doesn't want to use resources to fix these issues, pve skills are essentially the best way to fix pve scenarios where mobs have loads of hp/damage without having to do a massive overhaul.
On a second note "balance" in pve doesn't exist, it's a silly concept used everytime someone needs to prove his arguments valid, and it's pretty much a way to hide elitism. Balance doesn't exist in pve and doesn't need to, no mob will ever complain about players using overpowered skills since they are npcs. It's different in pvp where you're playing against humans and the purpose of the game is to defeat the opposite team.
About the "economy" thing, this is a source of laughs, are we seriously talking about economy in a game? If we wanted to take the serious approach to this, then we can simply dismiss the matter by saying pve skills made actually economy better by allowing more people to get otherwise impossible to obtain items /accomplish impossible feats, any opinion against this is just silly elitism and QQ from people who just had their e-penis cut, besides if really people wanted to mantain their position they could increase the prices of their items since the currency (ectos and zkeys) is now in surplus.
On top of that arguing about Fast clears/Pve skills impact on economy it's really stupid when you got hundreds of thousands zkeys injected every month from predictions, rare minipets that can be obtained by adding codes found on magazines or by farming a simple dungeon (same goes for titles).
This whole thread has no point to exist, if you don't want to use pve skills you don't have to, your whole game experience won't be affected by them unless you can't help but whine at the other guys getting money and items faster than you did, but this is a subjective problem in no way related to an objective game mechanic flaw.
The whole "fix pve thing" is personal, you and a limited number of players feel like it needs to be fixed since from your personal point of view this is an issue, but speaking absolutely there is no problem here, people get items/titles faster than before, we will live with it.

There is a strange attitude amongst players here that because something is in the game and they paid for the game, they have the right to be able to easily beat it.

Anet has for some bizare reason agreed with that, hence we have consumables etc. in the game. Such a viewpoint only damages the game, as it reduces player skill, creates nothing to aspire to and generally retards the quality of the game.

Consequently GW PVE has degenerated into nothing more than a buttonmashing fest. It would be far more interesting if the average player regularly got chewed up and spit out by hard-mode, instead of breezing through it. Then you have something to aim for and develop to, unlike the current game where because the majority of the gameplay has become so easy that it's just a matter of throwing time at the game and getting the reward, the only PVE challenge left is not getting RSI because you've double clicked 10,000 times for a consumption title.

Nerf the overpowered crap, bring GW back to being a game where being skillful actually matters. Not going to happen of course, because selling out to the lowest common denominator sells units.

Like the attitude people constantly complain about the skills breaking this game and thinking fixing these skills will magically make all the problems go away?

I agree with this cons should of never been in the game but the threads around the time where drowned out by the nerf ursan threads.

People still do and will continue to fail in hard mode, just you won't hear about it much on here becuase people don't take kindly to people finding something hard.

What happens when you nerf all the overpowered skills?

You're left with the player mindset that all pug's suck, everybody in this game is a noob, people fail etc etc....

Basically this.

It continues to blow my mind that people can legitimately defend there being changes to continually make the game easier. Do you look at yourselves in the mirror, and feel dead inside that you think this is a good idea?

Small wonder that a large part of the GW community gets no respect from accomplished players.

I really do hope the last paragraph isn't shared by the majority here and in game.

People are suggesting changes that will effect accomplished and non-accomplished players alike, do you expect people to endorse these changes made by people who do not respect a part of the community.

I read the first post and starts bad .... i dont really like ppl that uses things like "as we all know" , "lot of people thinks" , "as we all agree" and that kinda shit to help state that they are right but ok , i continued reading aaaaaand i stopped at the PvE skills " " " " balance " " " " .
- SY : Balanced ? yeah, pretty balanced u NERF it so tha ONLY warrior can use it . Rest of allegiance skills can be used by any prof but SY cant right ? nah , FAIL .
- CoP : Same FAIL than before.
- SF : Congratulations , u made an Elite skill useless and worthless like a non elite skill that no one uses, another FAIL .

I think u missed the point that PvE Skills need to be balanced between them. They are overpowered bcoz they are MEANT to . If they werent doing powerful things why would we use them ? . U wanna balance them ? cap the limit of PVE skills on a bar to 1 or 2 . THAT is the only fair balance possible. Link part of the power/effect of the skill to the main prof attrb is a good idea ..... but not the ENTIRE effect dude , only a part ( like TNTF ).

/notsigned ofc

SY - Anyone can use. Ranger, Monk, Warrior, Paragon, Dervish, Assassin. You just need For Great Justice/Dark Fury/Infurating Heat and you're good to go.

Cry of Pain - Yeah, everyone can, although only 4 pips of energy regen should. Even monks...

Triple Shot - Only Rangers, the rest won't have much use of it.

Selfless Spirit - Well... Why not... But only Monks and Ritualists can fully use it. But it just sucks, anyway.

Signet of Corruption - Nobody uses it at Necromancers, as SR is better than wasting PvE slot for a skill. Mesmers might use it... Might, but they have better e-management.

Ether Nightmare - Costs a lot, so only Mesmers, Elementalists and Necromancers should use it.

Elemental Lord - Haha.

Shadow Sanctuary - Lols.

Summon Spirits - Only Ritualists and Rangers, because only they have non-PvE only spirits. That are useful.

Spear of Fury - W/P, P/x, R/P. But only the two latter should use, as Warriors are better at sword/hammer.

Aura of Holy Might - Same as above, except for Assassins instead of Paragons.

So you see, you are wrong.

Yes. That is true. Everything else is a fail.

Would hurt only h/h players that don't get any love anyway. Teams would still use CoP as first pve-only skill and Ether Nightmare for the second skill.

Don't think of it as making it harder, think of it as "kicking the game back into touch".

I always love the suggestion "just don't use those skills". If they're available, people will use them even if they want the game to be made harder, this is because everyone is always on a quest to find the most efficient build at killing. There is no valid reason to have to dumb down your build to bring the game down to a more enjoyable level.

While I agree with the changes, They won't happen, as the players with less skill are the ones that are buying the game, now. Anet made the skills easier, in part, to give people the chance to fill that HoM, which is a standing advertisement for GW2. PvP is still hard, and people who played pre-Nightfall can remember how fun it was to coordinate Urgoz nights with their guildies, or get together with friends to help them run Tannhakai.

For those who say PvE skills/buffs didn't hurt the game, let me mention one area which they did hurt. Read the name of the game: GUILD Wars. Less people join guilds on the PvE side. Why join a guild, when you can run through most areas with H/H, or farm solo with SF? Guilds are mostly about PvP, now. I remember when you had a mix, with people getting together to GvG or even AB one night, then hit elite areas like Urgoz another. HM brought this back for a short while, but then Anet, with consumables, drove that away. Now, other than for RP, most guilds seem to be geared for PvP. When you kill one of the great social aspects of the game, you are killing the reason it is a MMO/CORPG, and making it more like Diablo2, or an RPG.

Honestly, if you want to do stuff on your own, go play Final Fantasy or Oblivion. Otherwise, you really don't understand the reason behind SOCIAL games.

Yep. The introduction of HM made the game easier.

Yep the nerf of UB (that I defended) made the game easier.

PvE is a game where you are presented with a problem - how to defeat a certain area. Then you are given an arsenal of options - skills and consumables (I dislike those and don't see the need for them, but I also dislike area effects). U puzzle them on your available 64 skill slots (harder to convince other humans to change their part of the puzzle than heroes) and defeat the area. Puzzle is solved and you will always be able to solve the same puzzle again and again.

My proposal for harder HM - add Repressive Energy to every areas.

Should make everyone happy and I sound like a gozu, right?

I'm going to give one of my harshes comments in ages.
Yes, I share Avarre's opinion on this.

Let me explain.
I've seen several high-end guilds and alliances.
And I have a lot of respect for some of them, because of what they accomplish by skill.
However, at the same time I've seen a lot of crap guilds.
Guilds where people were able to speedclear or ursan elite areas, but whenever it came to balanced play they couldn't get the job done.
And it wasn't individual members, it was entire guilds that called themself high-end and were in alliances that supported high-end play.
On two different occassions I had guildies literally refusing to play with other alliance guilds except the ones they trusted because of the ... yes, I dare say it, inferior gameplay they had.

I'm not talking about players who just started playing or only played once in a while. It's players from who I would expect far better gameplay.
And yes, they speedclear or ursan far better than I do, but just lack simple skills like building a balanced team and working together.

If players want my respect they can earn it, I don't give it anymore.
I've seen a nice alliance literally destroyed by that kind of players.
Sure, they can have all the fun they want and even use PvE skills and consumables for it. But that doesn't earn them any respect from me.
It's the same as if I would enter the PvP side of the game now.
I don't expect respect, I want to earn it by my gameplay.
And I doubt I would gain any respect by playing some overpowered gimmick with which everyone and their grandma can win.

Again, if you want respect and be called the best in the world, play GvG.

Its an equal fight there.

Trying to be called good because you can outsmart some line of code that can't learn is stupid.

And so say all Elitist types. Oh my the numpties want to do Elite Area's.. and they want to use PvE skills.. sacrilege. Elitist types are all for cornering the 'elite' areas for themselves and themselves only.. if your a numpty who's never even set foot in an 'Elite' area... you are COMPLETE SH*T OUT OF LUCK.

That is not the inclusive game that Guild Wars was meant to be, and you should be ashamed that you want to perpetuate the elitist crowd. It's not a mindset that I want ANY part of.

Anon's perception is a common problem with GW's population.

People get to confused about the difference between being a good player and an elitest. Being an elitest means I LOL at "noobs" and don't help anybody or need/want anybody elses help.

Good players are, legitmately, better at the game in thier understanding of game mechanics. Just because they are better or claim to be better (because they are) people precieve this as "elitest."


An elitest doesn't want other people to be better then him, because he needs somebody to ego stroke.
A good player WANTS bad players to become good players. They want more competition in PvP and to make finding teamates easier in PvE. Bad players become good players by using non-gimmick builds and by learning about game mechanics, which is hindered by the current meta that discourages both.

The fact is, a.net has cattered too much to this precieved "elitism" by destroying the difference between a good and bad player. Ie, even a bad player could use Ursan just as well as a good player.

If you never set a foot in an Elite Area, you are baed.

They don't call it Elite Area just for the lulz. It is harder than for the Average Joe Shmoe.

HawkofStorms has nailed the difference between someone good and an elitist.

Good player - wants challenge and people to get skill.
Elitist - cares only about his stack of ectoes.

None of the purposed nerfs will change anything of that. Actually of the ideas purposed are outright ridiculous and smell of preventing people from finishing stuff, unless they are in a guild that will always enable 8 or 12 player parties.

Removing all non-interactive skills sound good to increase skill required until someone throw 500+ damage at you with a single skill. You can counter that but gets old soon.

And what level of skill do you purpose to be required? Is it require to do aurora glades in HM, without consumable, with a hero monk, 2 eles heroes, 1 monk hench and 1 ele hench and without no PvE skills and no bug exploits enough? Or you need to do that while naked?

Just because these proposed nerfs won't be a silver bullet and fix all the problems doesn't mean a.net shouldn't at least try.

And really, there are plenty of ways to deal with +500 damage skills used against you by monsters, without resorting to gimmicky stuff. Most obviously, is proper pulling and aggro mechanics so you don't get overwhelmed. Aggro doesn't matter anymore thanks to SF.

The other, is prot spirit. A monk that runs something besides all healing/"make red bars go up" can easily keep a party alive.

The other is disruption. Interupts and shutdowns and hexes are overlooked too often.

Congratulations , u cut and copied a post and completly misunderstood the sense , u r impressively WRONG . Good FAIL dude . When i said "every prof can use it" i meant that every prof that chances sec prof to that and uses skills of that second prof can use it and have SOME effect. For example , critical bow sin can use triple shot (allegiance skill) and have good effect.
So are you
[/QUOTE]

The problem here is the mentality behind, when a player says Cryway is for noobs he automatically poses his judgement as an absolute benchmark, for another player 5 physicals could be a gimmick build as much as cryway is. In order to fuel his arguments based on his own discomfort about the ingame now shitted upon achievements he made, the subject in question will bring up any sort of excuses from the ruined economy to the "omfg apocalypse is coming" issue. In general pve doesn't need to be balanced (only case it needs it is when mobs can 1 shoot players and there is absolutely no way to take down), only thing that would need a fix is shadow form, but not for the skill itself more for the ill combo it creates with an ele secondary.
I'm all up for a more challenging pve but only when the "fixes" promoted have a decent ratio behind them, not when the reason of their proposal is the prickysh nature of the promoter (not talking about OP here, but many posters in this thread have that stuck up attitude) on top of that; a "challenge" is not offered by reducing players skill efficiency but rather from adding new content especially not based on the typical "let's give monsters insane hp and damage bonuses and enjoy the new ways players will find to kill them" because in this case there would be no difference between elite areas.
Also I'd like to point out how pve hasn't gotten massively easier from what it was. In beta you had eles one shooting everything, in prophecies you had no soul reaping nerf and no minion cap, in faction you had stacking spirits with godly armor/health and almost permanent defensive partywide buffs and let's not forget splinter weapon, when nf came out you had insanely overpowered skills, remember the paragons of the beginning?
I never do cryway (I doubt my ritu could manage it wel) I almost always run balanced or discordway but I see no point in reducing someone else fun, if they want to play that way let them, they won't influence mine or yours gaming experience.

This is also a form of elitism. Just because I don't agree with the changes, you think you will have to explain me how to play.

If arkantos had purposed to reduce the armor from SY! from 100 to 40 or whatever other number, even given it a recharge would be no problem.

If arkantos had stayed away from discordway, which isn't overpowered compared to balanced human party builds, wall would be fine.

I only used a tank once. To do UW cause I didn't have any human monk and that stupid reaper like to die to ms.

If people like to talk about overpowered, used by player skills, they also need to talk about absurd monster skills and environment effects (they are just stupid, no skill at all. U can reduce ur skill bar to 4 or 5 skills to gimp urself in that way if u want to), stupid henchies builds and idiot hero AI (especially melee).

Otherwise it all sums up to prevent people from doing all the game content unless they are in a guild full of experienced people.

Just a quick thought from me. Let's compare cryway with a 5 physical build (with SY!). If you take away, or nerf, cry of pain, the whole cryway build is dead - one skill was the whole basis of the build, and without it you lack any sort of good damage or spiking potential. Now, let's take away SY! from the physical build; you modify the monk bar and probably replace the paragon with a second monk and the build can still take on HM areas with ease.

I'm not saying that the 5 physical build isn't imba, because it certainly is; but it can not be put along cryway and be called a gimmick.

We all know the GW AI is dumb and the lack of randomization in PvE doesn't help either. But the sad truth is there is very little chance that area is getting any improvement ever. I really hope GW2 does this a bit better. Until then, nerfing overpowered aspects across the board is the only viable option.

Nope, you take out SY from the 5 physical and the whole build will collapse especially in the first room of Urgoz. Also in the 4 physical variant you'll have to remove the Overpowered pve skills, since by OP logic Eternal aura/aura of holy might/TnTf/ critical agility are overpowered as well, let's not talk about Great dwarf weapon. Hey don't forget Ray of Judgement, it's so "bugged" that mobs don't scatter , things like this (mentioning only 1-2 skills used by pugs, and forgetting things that work as well but are run by a minority of players) label this as a QQ/elitist thread.

If having common sense means you're an elitist, sure.

With 4 monks, build modifications and some skill, no, it won't.

Those skills are powerful, yes. But please tell me where I said they were overpowered. Don't worry, I'll wait. Ray of judgment is bugged, and should be fixed. That's just common sense, though.

You also need to learn what QQ is, and what an elitist is. I'm not elitist, I just happen to be in the minority of players that give a shit about balance in PvE.

This post is awesome , best post on this page.

A bit on topic , these nerfs aren't proposed to increase challenge, but balance out the classes because these skills are extremely powerful.
Nerfing skills won't provide any real challenge , only new content can do that.
Also removing the retarted enviromental effects in elite areas and changing the builds of the monsters and their monster skills a bit would a step in the right direction.

Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you their, especially on the basis of how much I've played the build. Taking out PvE only skills you mentioned doesn't really affect the Urgoz build at all. Running two Earthshaker warriors is more than enough knockdown to allow enough shutdown to keep damage at a minimum. Proper aggro and good prots along with people following targets will lead to success in Urgoz. As far as eternal aura goes, the only time dervishes are really ran are in FoW and that's only for Dwayna - having downtime or simply replacing the dervs would keep the builds effectiveness up. Ray of Judgement? In the physical build? Never used, never will.

But we're getting off-topic here. I would love to see the OP's balances go through. Promoting skillful play in PvE is something I can only dream of.

You need to learn to read, because in my previous post I said that I didn't believe you were an elitist, but seeing how you took it personal, now I can't help but think that deep inside you know you're one.
You didn't call them Overpowered, ( please point out where I said you called them overpowered) but by your logic they are.
On the other hand, cry of pain on a single char isn't that powerful, when in party it becomes an issue, same with aura of holy might (alone it's not overpowered) but when you have 4 wars spamming scythe attacks with it, it becomes an issue, again you forgot or didn't want to mention the whole thing. Again balance in pve means nothing, mobs will never complain about that and as long as things aren't handed freely I see no point in nerfing things, I'd be worried a little if you could get a voltaic in 2 minutes but not when you still need countless runs each lasting 15 minutes at least to get one.

QQ is sometimes used on the Internet as an abbreviation for crying; it is supposedly visually similar to two big eyes with tears at the bottom. For further reading, see emoticon (Urban dictionary).

This thread has all the qualities of the standard complain/whine thread, fits the QQ requirements perfectly. By the way I'd like to point out next update is tomorrow, by then we will see if ROJ is really bugged or just another OP skill, I hope you will add that on the list with all the ones I previously mentioned (add to that "By Ural's hammer" as well, oh and sliver armor, anyone complaining about SF when sliver is the skill that should be killed in order to destroy SF farming)

I agree with you partly, however I do believe that it would make it more challenging because it would indeed balance out the different classes like you say. That would promote class diversity and the need for a better cooperation ( which some think is enough challenge for PUGs ).
I'd personally like to see new content added as well and an unpredictability for monster skillbars, but I don't think that's realistic so late in the game. Toning down some skills would be easier I think. However it shouldn't be just toning down these skills in my opinion, but also improving underused skills and elites, like they have been doing, to promote builddiversity.

Wait, so Elite areas are supposed to be completed by people with a lack of skill? Thus rendering them just "areas"?

Please re-think your argument, and when you provide a valid defense, I will warrant it with one of my own.

For god sakes. Stop calling people who disagree with you either "elitests" or "trolls."

People can and do have legitamate disagreements over OPINIONS without being terrible human beings.

Considering I see DoA empty (spent like 2 weeks in there last december with my girl getting gems for a few torment weapons) and the Deep and Urgoz are hardly better, and the few people that are there call me crazy and leave when they see we are using 6 heroes, I would say they aren't rendering those elite areas into just areas.

But maybe my girl, myself and my heroes bother u...

Or players