Ether Renewal healers - the death of true monking
Perfected Shadow
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
They need to be nerfed even more.
I've got it all planned out, see?
1) Nerf SF
2) Nerf ER
3) Fix Dervishes
4) Fix Ritualists - DONE
5) Fix pets - DONE Imo it's not popular enough to warrant nerfing and it will never be popular enough. It's not exactly stepping on the monk's role because groups looking for a healer will always choose monks over ER eles, or rits for that matter.
Does it deserve to be mentioned in the same page as Shadow Form, which single-handedly excludes nearly every class in various areas? Seriously WHEN have you seen ER eles causing monks to get kicked out? In reality, the exact RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing opposite usually occurs when you ping an ER bar. YOU get kicked. Meh the irony.
I've got it all planned out, see?
1) Nerf SF
2) Nerf ER
3) Fix Dervishes
4) Fix Ritualists - DONE
5) Fix pets - DONE Imo it's not popular enough to warrant nerfing and it will never be popular enough. It's not exactly stepping on the monk's role because groups looking for a healer will always choose monks over ER eles, or rits for that matter.
Does it deserve to be mentioned in the same page as Shadow Form, which single-handedly excludes nearly every class in various areas? Seriously WHEN have you seen ER eles causing monks to get kicked out? In reality, the exact RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing opposite usually occurs when you ping an ER bar. YOU get kicked. Meh the irony.
reaper with no name
Our opinions on that differ.
In my view, the fact that ER healers can outheal and outprot monks at all is reason enough to nerf them, regardless of how common they are. The fact that this build even exists defeats the purpose of having monks do healing or prot.
Sure, you can have a monk do those things, but then again, you could also put mending on your bar. Either way, you'll probably be able to manage, because it's PvE. It doesn't mean that either charcter is the best use of a party slot, though. The reasoning is the same: there's no point in using mending because it is suboptimal. There is also no reason (within the game mechanics) to use a monk for healing or protting in PvE, because it's suboptimal.
Hence, overpowered things should be nerfed simply because they're overpowered. Or at least that's my viewpoint.
In my view, the fact that ER healers can outheal and outprot monks at all is reason enough to nerf them, regardless of how common they are. The fact that this build even exists defeats the purpose of having monks do healing or prot.
Sure, you can have a monk do those things, but then again, you could also put mending on your bar. Either way, you'll probably be able to manage, because it's PvE. It doesn't mean that either charcter is the best use of a party slot, though. The reasoning is the same: there's no point in using mending because it is suboptimal. There is also no reason (within the game mechanics) to use a monk for healing or protting in PvE, because it's suboptimal.
Hence, overpowered things should be nerfed simply because they're overpowered. Or at least that's my viewpoint.
Owik Gall
I never saw any good use from ER healers. Can somebody please enlighten me? Maybe show me the correct build and stuff because I don't see it working all that well over monks.
Perfected Shadow
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Sorry Owik, read Ether Renewal's description carefully, then look at monk protection skills and Infuse Health.
Anyway reaper (I assume you have a monk), if I were you I'd be happy that on the rare occasion you get an ER ele you'll never be told you're suboptimal /kick. Instead you'll have a much easier time monking and get comments like "VERY NICE HEALING REAPER".
kanuks
I bet that most peoples saying that ER should be nerfed are using SF on a regular basis.
Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Owik Gall
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In my view, the fact that ER healers can outheal and outprot monks at all is reason enough to nerf them, regardless of how common they are. The fact that this build even exists defeats the purpose of having monks do healing or prot.
Sure, you can have a monk do those things, but then again, you could also put mending on your bar. Either way, you'll probably be able to manage, because it's PvE. It doesn't mean that either charcter is the best use of a party slot, though. The reasoning is the same: there's no point in using mending because it is suboptimal. There is also no reason (within the game mechanics) to use a monk for healing or protting in PvE, because it's suboptimal. Monks aren't useless, and ER Elementalists do not entirely outheal and outprot Monks. I've given reasons why before, I'll repeat them here:
1. ER Elementalists don't have party heals;
2. ER Elementalists don't have hex / condition removal - they can bring it, but if they do they cramp and already cramped bar even more;
3. ER Elementalists do not have access to certain prots, e.g. Seed of Life / Aegis / Shield of Absorption;
4. ER Elementalists risk getting interrupted and it getting removed - can be macromanaged against, but still a weakness.
Monks aren't useless, they just have to play to their strengths.
Though yes, Infuse isn't too good on Vekk. He seldom casts it and I've often been hanging on at around 30% health, waiting for him to cast it. I hate having to micro a hero to use a heal.
I've considered something like Heal Other (which is fairly good at 10 Healing), but it doesn't have the big healing capacity of Infuse.
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I agree about HP because it's a weak heal, cannot be boosted and really doesn't fit in line with what a ER-Protter does anyway.Sure, you can have a monk do those things, but then again, you could also put mending on your bar. Either way, you'll probably be able to manage, because it's PvE. It doesn't mean that either charcter is the best use of a party slot, though. The reasoning is the same: there's no point in using mending because it is suboptimal. There is also no reason (within the game mechanics) to use a monk for healing or protting in PvE, because it's suboptimal. Monks aren't useless, and ER Elementalists do not entirely outheal and outprot Monks. I've given reasons why before, I'll repeat them here:
1. ER Elementalists don't have party heals;
2. ER Elementalists don't have hex / condition removal - they can bring it, but if they do they cramp and already cramped bar even more;
3. ER Elementalists do not have access to certain prots, e.g. Seed of Life / Aegis / Shield of Absorption;
4. ER Elementalists risk getting interrupted and it getting removed - can be macromanaged against, but still a weakness.
Monks aren't useless, they just have to play to their strengths.
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You know, I don't know about that. Spamming Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on all 8 party members at will is I think more useful than the big redbar up.|
Originally Posted by Xenosmortis
Running two ER Eles basically means you can easily and relatively safely keep up 8 copies of Prot Bond, mabye with some Heal Party spam.
But I think if you have 1 ER Eles and 1 Monk; then (depending on the area) the monk should focus a little more in clean up - something the ele cannot do. Two obvious elite choices are Restore Condition and Peace and Harmony. Unfortunatly, RC is conditions only and cannot self-target and PnH is on too long a recharge to keep everybody clean in areas when you need it. That monk should also bring some stuff ER Eles don't - Aegis, perhaps Extinguish, etc. It's a bit hard to imagine Heal Party if you're using Protective Bond (2s cast when you could be losing massive energy per second). Breath of the Great Dwarf yes, but Heal Party ... difficult. Maintaining Protective Bond also necessarily means you don't get Life Attunement (Vital Blessing is not only unnecessary with Prot Bond, it is counterproductive). You could jump through hoops and such to fit everything you need onto your bar, but you'd have to give up on other nice stuff like Protective Spirit if Protective Bond ever gets stripped, GDW, and you completely neglect hex / condition removal. It works, just might not be ideal. Agree with what you write about Monk + ER Ele, except that possibly HB would be a great elite for the Monk because pumping party heals is something the Elementalist can't do well and you'd shore it up.
Owik Gall
K, I think I get it. Thanks guys. It's too bad it seems that only human players can effectively use it than heroes, though. If so, however, we would have seen a big nerf of this months ago. XD
EDIT: Woops! Found out heroes CAN use it. Nerf cannon coming up! x( Improvavel
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
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Though yes, Infuse isn't too good on Vekk. He seldom casts it and I've often been hanging on at around 30% health, waiting for him to cast it. I hate having to micro a hero to use a heal.
I've considered something like Heal Other (which is fairly good at 10 Healing), but it doesn't have the big healing capacity of Infuse.
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I disagree very much about Aegis. It's been glued on my ER since I built the bar. It's not coming off either. The way to get around the Aegis recharge is to simply bring whatever Prot hench is available, or to have another human player bring a second ER.
EVERY Prot henchman has Aegis (except EotN Lina) and the H/H chain it nicely. If the battle isn't (at the very least) decided in 24s then something is wrong on the offense side.
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenomortis
Your essentials are GoS, ER, Aura, Infuse and Prot Spirit. Spirit Bond is bloody useful to have and Life Attunement boosts your heals and the healing from ER and Aura (I think). If you're maintaining 8 enchantments, you can't really afford a 2 second casting spell and you'll need something spammy to hit between Infuses.
Wait, are you talking about a human run ER-Prot? If so, then yes, GoS and Life Attunement rock and are probably core skills.
I would NEVER, EVER run GoS or Life Attunement on an ER-Prot bar meant for a hero. That seems like asking for trouble. Run a bar that a hero CANNOT screw up. Your core skills are:
Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond
Aegis
Then add two quick, strong heals with as few conditions as possible. My favorites are Dwayna's Kiss and Infuse Health.
That leaves one slot for something else. Don't get fancy, heroes are idiots. Hex removal or cond removal, are the biggies here. For hex removal, I recommend Cure/Convert Hexes. For condition removal, start with Mend Cond. You have a lot of viable options in both areas though.
A hero simply CANNOT screw this bar up, except by not casting at all. Anything he casts helps. We don't have to trust him choosing the right spell, because they're ALL good choices.
There are two things we CAN trust him with: enchantment stacking and hex/cond removal usage. That's about it.
You followed my advice on taking the Prot henchman didn't you? Good. EVERY prot henchman has Aegis, in addition to ALL having either PS or SB. H/H know what enchants are up, and won't waste their time recasting one that is already active. So you have a high probability of getting PS and SB stacked (awesome), and zero probability of a recast. You also get Aegis chaining (awesome) for the same reason with zero probability of a recast.
The two big heals are there purely to fill a slot and keep him from doing anything stupid. I don't WANT him to have options, because he will make the wrong choice 100% of the time. Hero bar are the opposite of player bars, where you want options. You want to confine the bar so he can't screw it up no matter what.
With two big heals, he has four spells to use on you when you need help, so it comes down to 50% prot and 50% heal. If you don't do this, for example, if you take hex AND cond removal, then your free heal is down to 33% usage. All he really knows is to cast SOMETHING. He won't recast an existing prot, but he could still cast another prot, including hex/cond removal, when you need a heal.
Essentially, you're weighting your bar.
Your only real choice is for the last slot: hex removal or cond removal? You've got options here, but think about those options in light of the previous discussion. In a heated battle, you are likely hexed/conded or both, and this basically enables a fifth spell for him to use. We don't really want him to decide to do a removal when we need a heal, but..... we have enough options to make sure that even in that case, we get a heal along with the removal. (ie: Mend Condition and Cure Hex)
There are other options you can choose for their strengths: Draw/Dismiss Conditions, Convert Hexes, etc. And these aren't necessarily wrong. I use Convert in hex heavy areas and usually get away with it, but they open the door for a miscast, whereas Mend/Cure do not.
If you need even stronger removal, work them into another characters bar.
Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond
Dwayna's Kiss
Infuse Health
Mend/Cure or riskier options
Aegis
Ether Renewal
Aura
Prot Hench
Win!
I would NEVER, EVER run GoS or Life Attunement on an ER-Prot bar meant for a hero. That seems like asking for trouble. Run a bar that a hero CANNOT screw up. Your core skills are:
Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond
Aegis
Then add two quick, strong heals with as few conditions as possible. My favorites are Dwayna's Kiss and Infuse Health.
That leaves one slot for something else. Don't get fancy, heroes are idiots. Hex removal or cond removal, are the biggies here. For hex removal, I recommend Cure/Convert Hexes. For condition removal, start with Mend Cond. You have a lot of viable options in both areas though.
A hero simply CANNOT screw this bar up, except by not casting at all. Anything he casts helps. We don't have to trust him choosing the right spell, because they're ALL good choices.
There are two things we CAN trust him with: enchantment stacking and hex/cond removal usage. That's about it.
You followed my advice on taking the Prot henchman didn't you? Good. EVERY prot henchman has Aegis, in addition to ALL having either PS or SB. H/H know what enchants are up, and won't waste their time recasting one that is already active. So you have a high probability of getting PS and SB stacked (awesome), and zero probability of a recast. You also get Aegis chaining (awesome) for the same reason with zero probability of a recast.
The two big heals are there purely to fill a slot and keep him from doing anything stupid. I don't WANT him to have options, because he will make the wrong choice 100% of the time. Hero bar are the opposite of player bars, where you want options. You want to confine the bar so he can't screw it up no matter what.
With two big heals, he has four spells to use on you when you need help, so it comes down to 50% prot and 50% heal. If you don't do this, for example, if you take hex AND cond removal, then your free heal is down to 33% usage. All he really knows is to cast SOMETHING. He won't recast an existing prot, but he could still cast another prot, including hex/cond removal, when you need a heal.
Essentially, you're weighting your bar.
Your only real choice is for the last slot: hex removal or cond removal? You've got options here, but think about those options in light of the previous discussion. In a heated battle, you are likely hexed/conded or both, and this basically enables a fifth spell for him to use. We don't really want him to decide to do a removal when we need a heal, but..... we have enough options to make sure that even in that case, we get a heal along with the removal. (ie: Mend Condition and Cure Hex)
There are other options you can choose for their strengths: Draw/Dismiss Conditions, Convert Hexes, etc. And these aren't necessarily wrong. I use Convert in hex heavy areas and usually get away with it, but they open the door for a miscast, whereas Mend/Cure do not.
If you need even stronger removal, work them into another characters bar.
Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond
Dwayna's Kiss
Infuse Health
Mend/Cure or riskier options
Aegis
Ether Renewal
Aura
Prot Hench
Win!
Xenomortis
I appreciate it, although I think Ensign is right in that ER isn't going to get nerfed - it doesn't appear in dedicated farming builds.
Carinae
@Jeydra - Gyala is Seaguard Gita and Sister Tai. Gita has Aegis and SB, Tai has BL, which is a red bar pusher. You were running ER-Prot yourself? If so, something is wrong. Three healers should be more than enough. Do you have any other party 'prots' like WY or SY?
Especially in HM, Prot >>>>>> Red Bars Go Up.
Especially in HM, Prot >>>>>> Red Bars Go Up.
Jeydra
Three healers is, eh. I was running Assassin's Promise; if I had ER Prot I'd use just one henchman healer. Blessed Light isn't a good red bar pusher (want WoH). I had plenty of party-wide defense, not to mention plenty of meat shields, but plain no red bar. Even with perfect prot, red bars move up and down, and Blessed Light is such a bad red bar pusher.
Do you survive on one hero ER Prot + one of the healer henchmen, or do you use both healer henchmen?
Do you survive on one hero ER Prot + one of the healer henchmen, or do you use both healer henchmen?
Carinae
Agree on BL, but it's better than nothing and should be sufficient. You wiped? Or just couldn't protect the turtles?
One ER-prot and the prot-hench only. Infuse and DK and whatever the prot-hench carries to push red bars seems plenty for me.
Both my Necro and Sin have done it that way, with no self-heals. Necro had WY (on a hero) and my sin packs SY. Both also had minions.
EDIT: I'm also running Orders. So between that and Aegis and whatever point enchants we carry, we manage a rather strong DK.
One ER-prot and the prot-hench only. Infuse and DK and whatever the prot-hench carries to push red bars seems plenty for me.
Both my Necro and Sin have done it that way, with no self-heals. Necro had WY (on a hero) and my sin packs SY. Both also had minions.
EDIT: I'm also running Orders. So between that and Aegis and whatever point enchants we carry, we manage a rather strong DK.
Ensign
I do, in fact, read this forum on occasion.
I try to make Shield Guardian work when I do log in and play, I really do. It just very rarely gets cast, and its frequency of use drops whenever I actually have to pay attention to what I'm doing; it never displaces a Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, or Infuse. But in garbage time, you have situations where you *want* to do something, but if you don't have something in the GDW slot that's semi-spammable and multipurpose you just kinda stand there and it feels awful, especially if you're trying to keep Life Attunement on everyone.
That isn't necessarily bad if there's something really strong to put there instead, where you'd just accept that sometimes you aren't casting for a bit and losing a bit of flexibility on maintaining a bunch of enchants, but there isn't. So if for whatever reason you don't want Great Dwarf Weapon, Shield Guardian may be weak, but I haven't found anything better. The only thing that's really come close is Vigorous Spirit, but that requires a bunch of changes to attributes and the like that makes it a lot more marginal.
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Originally Posted by Malician
I try to make Shield Guardian work when I do log in and play, I really do. It just very rarely gets cast, and its frequency of use drops whenever I actually have to pay attention to what I'm doing; it never displaces a Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, or Infuse. But in garbage time, you have situations where you *want* to do something, but if you don't have something in the GDW slot that's semi-spammable and multipurpose you just kinda stand there and it feels awful, especially if you're trying to keep Life Attunement on everyone.
That isn't necessarily bad if there's something really strong to put there instead, where you'd just accept that sometimes you aren't casting for a bit and losing a bit of flexibility on maintaining a bunch of enchants, but there isn't. So if for whatever reason you don't want Great Dwarf Weapon, Shield Guardian may be weak, but I haven't found anything better. The only thing that's really come close is Vigorous Spirit, but that requires a bunch of changes to attributes and the like that makes it a lot more marginal.
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Keep a +15/-1 focus to put with the spear as well as an in-between high set you can swap to without losing the enchanting part. I like having a shield with the enchanting part on it as well.
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