Ether Renewal healers - the death of true monking

Originally Posted by Janja

Just wondering, is this runnable by a hero? Can't really try it out myself due to not having access to some of the skills yet. The hero will not properly understand what to do.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

19 Mar 2009 at 02:13 - 126

Originally Posted by Janja

Just wondering, is this runnable by a hero? If you dumb it down, yes. The heroes totally do not understand glyph of swiftness; they won't spam Infuse as often as you'd like; and they can't really manage the numerous maintained enchants a human can; but, other than that, they work OK.

Try
[ether renewal][protective spirit][spirit bond][infuse health][dwayna's kiss][convert hexes][aegis][aura of restoration]
The heros "get" how to use that bar. DKiss forces the AI to heal when you need it and it's being irresolute about infusing. (I really dislike using another heal when Infuse should be all you need, but, after trying heroes both ways, I've become convinced that this gap in the AI is well worth plugging.) The AI will chain Aegis properly. It generally doesn't blow its energy during E.Renewal's downtime. Definitely give it 16 ES and a 20% enchanting weapon. Set the AI to "avoid combat."

^ Credit to Carinae Dragonblood for DKiss, Aegis, and a couple other changes to the build.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

01 Apr 2009 at 12:57 - 127

Just did Duncan HM H/H with ER, it really shows its resilience and strength, even though the weaknesses were just shoved into my face a few times. Some things can't be taken for granted as well with ER, I realized. ER Elementalists have no hex and condition removal, so you can't just sub out a Monk for an ER Elementalist (or N/Rt healer, etc). They also have a huge weakness not yet mentioned in protting minion damage. That goes under Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit, and while you can Infuse through the damage, Infuse is mildly dangerous, and if your health is under 50% when ER drops and you're getting hit you could find yourself in trouble. This happens quite often for me since I'm spamming so much I have no time to kite. The 2+ seconds when you're refreshing ER is really very dangerous too, and plenty of time for someone to die, although with Air Magic at 4 you can Glyph of Swiftness -> Infuse -> put up Ether Renewal.

I'm beginning to think the strongest ER build in general is this one:

Air Magic 4
Energy Storage 11 + 1 + 1
Protection Prayers 12
Healing Prayers 5

Infuse Health
Spirit Bond
Shield Guardian
Protective Spirit
Aura of Restoration
Ether Renewal
Life Attunement
Glyph of Swiftness

Life Attunement is really complete leetsauce. It ups the health you gain from ER / AoR as well as up the health you gain for healing your allies. With the setup I was running for example an Infuse from max health is a 480 HP heal. That's more than two WoH's (gg Age). Not to mention the health you regain is tremendous: in the range of 150.

Shield Guardian is an interesting case. It's not a very strong skill - it's either that or it's somewhat bugged, because I don't seem to get the heal to trigger much even when the guy protted is getting wanded. Its strength comes from the 1/4 cast and 1s recharge. Because of the fast recharge you can spam so much the 'cooldown' on Infuse is much lower. It also has a relatively long duration, so if you're not getting hit you can use it to pump Ether Renewal. It's either Shield Guardian or Reversal of Fortune, one or the other. I'll have to try RoF a bit more often.

The maintained enchantment I find to be very very strong indeed, perhaps even too strong to give up. The enchantment brings an automatic +1 to your enchantment count, automatic +15% while enchanted to all your allies if they have that mod, makes you less vulnerable to getting stripped (since monsters might strip your allies) and still brings with it all their benefits. Life Attunement, as mentioned above, is total leetsauce and I'd run it whenever I can. When LA isn't viable (too many physical characters in team), it might be better to run Vital Blessing. Both spells pump Infuse; LA by increasing the heal while Vital Blessing by increasing the amount of health you can sacrifice.

Breath of the Great Dwarf ... it's a good skill, but the cooldown is atrocious. For the less spammy Elementalist it might work, but these days I begin to think it's better to powerheal through. Especially if you're running a maintained enchantment and operating with -4 degen, having Breath of the Great Dwarf is one less skill to spam with. You need to stop more, as well as be more careful with energy whenever ER is close to expiring. While the 86 heal to all party members (assuming LA active) is great, why not just run Shield Guardian, spam it a bit (it heals more than BotGD when it triggers too) and Infuse whenever.

And then there's Great Dwarf Weapon. It's a good skill of course, but kind of slow (albeit not as slow as BotGD). It might be a good choice to run Vital Blessing + GDW for the two optional slots, but given how much I play with H/H, and given how much I like casterballs with H/H, I don't think I'll get much chance to experiment with this.

And one final note: since ER healers have no room for condition and hex removal, it's essential to have them on a hero or henchman. Without hex removal Arcane Conundrum for example can incapacitate this build. The heals and prots won't be affected, but when it comes time to refresh ER, you will cry.

thinkingofaname

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

19 Apr 2009 at 06:48 - 128

[build prof=E/Mo Energy=12+1+3 Heal=3 Prot=12][Infuse][Aura of Restoration][Glyph of Swiftness][Ether Renewal][Life Attunement][Holy Veil][Purifying Veil][Protective Bond][/build]

Time to take ER to a new level. This is the new ER build I made, what do you guys think of it? It has both hex and condition removal, and protection against them. Basically pick the dangerous ones to remove, and just power heal the rest. More importantly, nobody ever dies due to [Protective Bond] (including yourself), you don't have to watch the field ever.....just hit infuse like a madman and hit Glyph + ER when needed, the rest of the build plays itself.

Just in case....you keep bond on all 8 member, rest of the enchants on yourself unless someone need a veil.

I haven't test this exclusively in HM, I want to know how it works.

Might need a grail for +1 prot if things hit too fast, but I haven't encountered this and you literally gain 19 energy per sec with this.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

19 Apr 2009 at 16:28 - 129

Even if you have the energy for it, there's some cap on the number of maintained enchants (10?)

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

19 Apr 2009 at 20:50 - 130

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

19 Apr 2009 at 21:05 - 131

In my experience, putting Prot Bond on a ER build works spectacularly, right up until it fails spectacularly. You can vanquish entire zones without anyone dipping below 80% hp (except you when you infuse), but you can also lose all your bonds and all your energy in a blink if your party decides to stand in some AoE. I would not recommend it for really hard content unless you've got all human party members (less likely to stand in AoE) and some other heavy damage reduction to keep PBond from triggering constantly (SY!, aegis chain). In any event, the bonds need to be split between two ER builds or your just asking to overload. The solution is incredibly simple: Life Bond for the party, Prot Bond for the ER ele!

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

The point of Ether Renewal, is that you do have the energy for it. Played properly. you'll never run out.
I can't find anything that mentions a maximum number of maintained enchantments, so I'm not sure on that.

It'd be a bit scary though, even with just Protective Bond on all 8 party members (taking you to -4 energy degen). ER shouldn't let you down though and if ER does suffer some downtime, an ele has a huge energy pool to play with.
And if things get bad, just cancel them and cast them later when possible.

I can't really judge the build myself though, as I have little experience playing such builds. In my experience, putting Prot Bond on a ER build works spectacularly, right up until it fails spectacularly. You can vanquish entire zones without anyone dipping below 80% hp (except you when you infuse), but you can also lose all your bonds and all your energy in a blink if your party decides to stand in some AoE. I would not recommend it for really hard content unless you've got all human party members (less likely to stand in AoE) and some other heavy damage reduction to keep PBond from triggering constantly (SY!, aegis chain). In any event, the bonds need to be split between two ER builds or your just asking to overload.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

20 Apr 2009 at 07:04 - 132

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Even if you have the energy for it, there's some cap on the number of maintained enchants (10?) The cap is -10 degen - so since you're an Ele with 4 natural energy regen, you can maintain 14 enchantments.

******

@topic - a couple of new insights to Ether Renewal.

Vital Blessing vs. Life Attunement: After having tried both skills considerably I think both are good. Vital Blessing is obviously superior when you've got physical characters in the team. It's also easier to put up in a fight if it gets removed (3/4s cast vs. 2s cast). Since it gives direct bonuses to health, it's superior if you've got some Death Penalty. Also since it gives direct bonuses to health, you're relatively safer from otherwise-deadly Elementalist foes. Although extra health can mean just taking longer before a team wipes, since ER bars hardly ever run out of energy that extra time can mean you don't party wipe after all.

On the other hand, Life Attunement is +44% health healed, which will make any healing Monk happy. It seriously boosts the health gain from Heal Party (which is a weak area of ER bars), and it helps normal heals fill out red bars completely. Although overhealing is an issue when you've got limited energy, in this case the heal Monk isn't actually spending energy on overhealing - the energy cost is borne by the ER Elementalist, and he has more than enough energy to spare. The extra heal comes for free; the 'cost' is actually the +168 health from Vital Blessing, which you necessarily won't have if running LA. The other major benefit of LA compared to Vital Blessing is the increased heal from Ether Renewal, which lets you Infuse more often.

I'd conclude that Life Attunement vs. Vital Blessing is more or less a tie, and you pick whichever you need for your purposes at that time. If you have 2 physicals, take Vital Blessing. If you're going to clear Shards of Orr HM where Fendi hits for 200 damage, take Vital Blessing. If you're doing Gyala HM and need to keep the turtles alive, take Vital Blessing. Outside of these situations though (i.e. for general PvE) take Life Attunement.

Reversal of Fortune vs. Shield Guardian: Shield Guardian is a clear winner here. It has lots of advantages over RoF - it lasts longer (12s vs. 7s), is superior healing and it recharges faster. Reversal's only real advantage is that it triggers against more kinds of damage, but since all monsters wand it's not a big deal at all. There's a bug with Shield Guardian that although it does trigger you won't see the +67 health gain you normally do when you heal someone (unless it's on yourself). Kinda disorienting to heal without seeing the heal, it made me think it wasn't triggering in the first place ...

I seem to have come full circle. The original ER bar I came up with is, outside of the 4-spec in Air, completely the same as the one I use these days. I've gone through all sorts of variants, I've used GDW, I've used BotGD, I've gone without maintained enchantments ... and in the end I've decided that the original bar is the best. I still have things to try of course - eg, running with Imbagons in the party more often. But for the styles of PvE that I do (mainly H/H, sometimes with one or two other players) I've tried out almost everything. This is the best, and it's carried me through the hardest areas in the game.

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

23 Apr 2009 at 21:42 - 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

thinkingofaname

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

24 Apr 2009 at 06:36 - 134

I've never tried it. How good does it work? You know how in HM everything is 50% tougher? Life Bond makes your H/H take 50% less damage. I don't know about you, but my math says that's pretty good

Agree with Chthon here. I've found 8 Protective Bonds to be too dangerous to run. Though ER provides almost infinite energy, that's only the case when you can spam. If you ever have to stop for whatever reason (KD'ed, time to refresh ER etc) then you are dead. Your energy can disappear in 3 seconds, you can't Infuse with no energy and you're basically paralyzed for a good 15 seconds or so. Not a good idea.

With the rest of the build I don't quite see the point of Holy Veil if alternative hex removal are better (Reverse Hex, Convert Hexes), although it should work. Also, with Protective Bond falling into the problem above, I think Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit are simply too important to give up.

The cap is -10 degen - so since you're an Ele with 4 natural energy regen, you can maintain 14 enchantments.

******

@topic - a couple of new insights to Ether Renewal.

Vital Blessing vs. Life Attunement: After having tried both skills considerably I think both are good. Vital Blessing is obviously superior when you've got physical characters in the team. It's also easier to put up in a fight if it gets removed (3/4s cast vs. 2s cast). Since it gives direct bonuses to health, it's superior if you've got some Death Penalty. Also since it gives direct bonuses to health, you're relatively safer from otherwise-deadly Elementalist foes. Although extra health can mean just taking longer before a team wipes, since ER bars hardly ever run out of energy that extra time can mean you don't party wipe after all.

On the other hand, Life Attunement is +44% health healed, which will make any healing Monk happy. It seriously boosts the health gain from Heal Party (which is a weak area of ER bars), and it helps normal heals fill out red bars completely. Although overhealing is an issue when you've got limited energy, in this case the heal Monk isn't actually spending energy on overhealing - the energy cost is borne by the ER Elementalist, and he has more than enough energy to spare. The extra heal comes for free; the 'cost' is actually the +168 health from Vital Blessing, which you necessarily won't have if running LA. The other major benefit of LA compared to Vital Blessing is the increased heal from Ether Renewal, which lets you Infuse more often.

I'd conclude that Life Attunement vs. Vital Blessing is more or less a tie, and you pick whichever you need for your purposes at that time. If you have 2 physicals, take Vital Blessing. If you're going to clear Shards of Orr HM where Fendi hits for 200 damage, take Vital Blessing. If you're doing Gyala HM and need to keep the turtles alive, take Vital Blessing. Outside of these situations though (i.e. for general PvE) take Life Attunement.

Reversal of Fortune vs. Shield Guardian: Shield Guardian is a clear winner here. It has lots of advantages over RoF - it lasts longer (12s vs. 7s), is superior healing and it recharges faster. Reversal's only real advantage is that it triggers against more kinds of damage, but since all monsters wand it's not a big deal at all. There's a bug with Shield Guardian that although it does trigger you won't see the +67 health gain you normally do when you heal someone (unless it's on yourself). Kinda disorienting to heal without seeing the heal, it made me think it wasn't triggering in the first place ...

I seem to have come full circle. The original ER bar I came up with is, outside of the 4-spec in Air, completely the same as the one I use these days. I've gone through all sorts of variants, I've used GDW, I've used BotGD, I've gone without maintained enchantments ... and in the end I've decided that the original bar is the best. I still have things to try of course - eg, running with Imbagons in the party more often. But for the styles of PvE that I do (mainly H/H, sometimes with one or two other players) I've tried out almost everything. This is the best, and it's carried me through the hardest areas in the game. The point of holy veil, in addition to the protection factor, is that it is an enchantment itself and can be maintained, so you gain +4 energy and extra health from ER. The energy gain works due to infuse having 0 recharge, so you can spam it every second, and health gain from ER with Pbond means you cant die either even at 50% hp all the time. The highlight of the build is that other than keeping up ER, you have to do nothing other than hitting infuse non-stop for energy and red bar up. KD and AoE would be a counter to this build, I normally run a modified necro way with this build, so I have enchantments from other resources and minions as baits for AoE, and you are back far enough that most KDs shouldn't hit you, but I can see how those may be a problem. But with the correct team setup, this is probably the most fail safe way to keep your party alive.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

29 Apr 2009 at 14:23 - 135

I've thought about Life Bond, but I've never tried it. There are two reasons:

1. You can't use Life Bond on yourself. This means that you've just added a skill that won't give you +1 to enchantment count, straining an already crowded bar.
2. It works only against physical attacks. Against Elementalist, Mesmer or Necro damage it is powerless.

I've never tried it. How good does it work?

@above - that sounds very much like one of the infinite-infuses build mentioned in this thread. I've never played one myself, although I've played with Elnore while he ran it. The problems are ...

1. You can't Infuse everyone. It takes, what, 4 seconds to Infuse everyone in the party, which is dangerous and more than enough time for people to die. It's a party heal problem that's inherent to most ER bars though.
2. You can't live on just Infuse. At least, in the areas I play, it doesn't work. The LA / SB / PS / Shield Guardian bar I run is almost infinite Infuse as well, but whenever I do Duncan HM with it if I have to stop protting and rely on consecutive Infuses it's a sign that the party is under serious pressure. Sooner or later I have to stop and prot, without it the damage is simply too high (Spirit Bond + LA = +126 ftw!).

Now if you can feasibly maintain 8 Protective Bonds, then I can see the point of the build, it's just that I've found in the tough areas it doesn't work. On a 600 HP character 5% HP is 30 health. Everyone hits above 30 damage in the tough areas (even the minions in Duncan HM hits above 30 damage). The drain on energy is tremendous, too tremendous even ... I don't know if you can have 8 Protective Bonds spread across two Elementalists, but in my experience - H/H though - using 8 bonds on one Elementalist is too dangerous. It works spectacularly right up until it fails spectacularly, and when it does fail spectacularly you will wipe (since you're down for some 15s).

Anyway some things I tried out but never fully pursued, since I gave up the idea - you might find them useful instead. First is Burning Speed. The skill is an enchantment, 1/4s cast and 0 recharge. You can spam it nonstop, thus keeping up energy, while waiting for someone to take enough damage to warrant an Infuse. Come to think of it though this might not be a good idea because you might as well cast Infuse anyway, especially if you're using infinite Infuse builds where the second Infuse isn't much weaker than the first, if it is weaker at all. The second option is Breath of the Great Dwarf. Since you don't normally want to Infuse for 60 heal, you could use BotGD to fill out party bars instead. Up to you to try, if it works all the better (make sure to share the build though)

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

29 Apr 2009 at 16:53 - 136

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Seriously, though, Life Bond on an ER ele is great when the H/H can deal with the mobs themselves. By keeping the party bonded, you're effectively giving them extra time to handle the mobs - not to mention giving yourself extra time to catch a dying ally with Infuse. Only 2 things can make Life Bond a bad choice:

1. If you need to bring extra killing power on your character, such as if you're using Discordway (PvE skills + Assassin's Promise)... but you're not an ER ele then, are you?

2. If you know there is mass enchantment removal in the area (mostly Mirror of Disenchantment in GWEN, but also Chillblains).

Keeping multiple maintained enchantments up does require that you spam something for the energy, which means you'll be taking more to get to places as you can't walk while casting. It's fine for an occasional change of pace, though, and it does create an extra "fail buffer" that is more than welcome

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

30 Apr 2009 at 02:49 - 137

It doesn't right? Life Bond only triggers on attacks, which means it does not affect Visions of Regret, Searing Flames, Spiteful Spirit, etc. If it did trigger on everything then I can see the purpose of it, but if it's only attacks, I'm more skeptical. You know, I've never noticed that. I want to say I've taken redirected Bond damage from spell effects, but I'm usually too busy watching the party's health to notice. Maybe someone with more time can go out and test it...

I've tried it. It's so-so.

Quote: Now if you can feasibly maintain 8 Protective Bonds, then I can see the point of the build, it's just that I've found in the tough areas it doesn't work. On a 600 HP character 5% HP is 30 health. Everyone hits above 30 damage in the tough areas (even the minions in Duncan HM hits above 30 damage). The drain on energy is tremendous, too tremendous even ... I don't know if you can have 8 Protective Bonds spread across two Elementalists, but in my experience - H/H though - using 8 bonds on one Elementalist is too dangerous. It works spectacularly right up until it fails spectacularly, and when it does fail spectacularly you will wipe (since you're down for some 15s). I've tried extensively to make this work. It doesn't, for the reasons you stated. The one situation that I haven't tested that might work is 2 eles with 4 bonds each on a largely human team with SY!, Aegis, and other party-wide damage mitigation flying around. Maybe, maybe, maybe with enough kiting and other damage mitigation, you might be able to keep the energy loss manageable.

Basically you're looking at (4e*enchants+1e)/1sec energy gain from ER and AoR if you spam Infuse on the aftercast and -4e/hit. So...
...with 4 enchants, you can keep up with 4.25 hits/sec against the people you bond;
...with 5 enchants, you can keep up with 5.25 hits/sec against the people you bond;
etc.
Considering that most HM monsters attack speed and the fact that they do enough to trigger PB on every hit, you've got a big problem with any sort of large mob.

The second concern is getting your energy spiked to zero. Due to their brilliant balling behavior, it's not uncommon for H+H to get your full team zapped with multiple deep freezes or a meteor shower. Trying to bond 8 people taking 3 big AoE hits is 96 energy. Toss in a couple of melee monsters attacking at the same time and you energy can go from full to zero faster than you can cast a single infuse. Splitting the bonds up 4/4 between 2 eles cuts that in half, but losing 50e in the blink of an eye is still a big problem.

Quote:

Anyway some things I tried out but never fully pursued, since I gave up the idea - you might find them useful instead. First is Burning Speed. The skill is an enchantment, 1/4s cast and 0 recharge. You can spam it nonstop, thus keeping up energy, while waiting for someone to take enough damage to warrant an Infuse. Come to think of it though this might not be a good idea because you might as well cast Infuse anyway, especially if you're using infinite Infuse builds where the second Infuse isn't much weaker than the first, if it is weaker at all. The second option is Breath of the Great Dwarf. Since you don't normally want to Infuse for 60 heal, you could use BotGD to fill out party bars instead. Up to you to try, if it works all the better (make sure to share the build though)

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

04 May 2009 at 10:02 - 138

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro View Post

You know how in HM everything is 50% tougher? Life Bond makes your H/H take 50% less damage. I don't know about you, but my math says that's pretty good

Originally Posted by Chthon

Burning speed is a worthless effect. Might as well just infuse someone who doesn't need it. Also worthless, but saves a skillslot.

Ensign thought BotGD was awesome for ER healer bars. I never agreed though. Too little healing for too long a recharge IMO. I'd rather spam a bunch of Shield Guardians. Statistically, you'll get more healing per time. It might work better with Air of Superiority to knock down the recharge. Maybe. In any event, I've largely outsourced party healing to my minion bomber via Dwayna's Sorrow for most party configurations that don't have a live MM. PS, SB, and Infuse make sure no one dies, and DSorrow will eventually clean up the nicks and scratches. Well problem is Infuse is dangerous: you are usually at around 50% health while Infusing, which can kill you, especially if Protective Spirit drops for whatever reason.

As for BotGD ... yes, these days I'm increasingly convinced it works less effectively than spamming Shield Guardian. Recently I tried the Ensign bar again when I went into Kathandrax with 3 Rangers, so I brought Great Dwarf Weapon, but the bar really isn't as good. You can only cast Infuse like 2 times before you can't heal effectively anymore. Not a good thing. On the other hand, the bar does allow you to operate without Glyph of Swiftness. Free from the pressure of spaming Infuse constantly as well as maintaining 8 enchantments, you can afford to let ER drop for a while. I do wonder though if the gains outweight the losses. It looks suspiciously like, I no longer have Rodgort's Invocation on my bar, so I no longer need GoLE either ...

But then, you are a Prot Monk in some sense, so pushing up red bars can be relegated to the other Monk - while you can still spare some time buffing the party (GDW) or removing stuff (Glyph of Swiftness -> Convert Hexes maybe?), while still being able to heal every now and then. I don't know. These days my partner Monk is Mhenlo, and he's not about to tell me how well he copes with damage.

Faure

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mystic Spiral [MYST]

05 May 2009 at 15:45 - 139

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

06 May 2009 at 23:39 - 140

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Kale Ironfist

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

Australia

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

07 May 2009 at 06:58 - 141

Life Bond is as Jeydra said, it's attacks only.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

15 May 2009 at 06:46 - 142

Since you never run out of energy it means also that you are not going to die unless the party takes too much damage to heal through (which doesn't happen that much) or when you're refreshing ER (unfortunate weakness). When I refer to fragility of the ER template, it always refers to how well it deals with Ether Renewal getting stripped / interrupted, or really nasty hexes or conditions getting on you (Backfire, Soul Leech, Dazed). It does not have anything to do with the amount of damage you can heal through under ideal conditions. Under ideal conditions a character maintaining 8 enchantments is obviously better.

Originally Posted by Faure View Post

As simple answer to the title; True monking will never die, as it is not so incredibly boring as infuse spam.

I made an ER infuser and just trying the build for once mission was enough for me to never load it up again. There are probably people willing to non stop spam infuse, just like there are minion masters who like to click on their minions and cast death nova. But in the end; monking is simply fun. Watching a field, seeing some ele boss running to your 60al necro and being in time to catch his 600dmg lighting orb with a well placed prot.
Good monking gives so much more satisfaction then infuse-spamming. But then again, most people get more satisfaction by running something that gives them 500k in 2 weeks, then skill. Lol you can do that with ER as well - in fact, you can do it better, since you've got both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond to spare ...

Anyway with the update it might be time to change the build.

The big change is Strength of Honor. With +25 damage now, and ER's ability to maintain 8 enchantments with little pain, and Zealot's Fire, we could have a super melee buffer who maintains Strength of Honor, uses Judge's Insight (maybe), Great Dwarf Weapon (probably), and spams the crap out of Reversal of Damage, Smite Condition, Smite Hex and Zealot's Fire, with Infuse too just for fun. Could also have Prot Spirit just because it's there. So how about:

12 + 1 + 1 Energy Storage
12 Smiting Prayers
3 Healing Prayers

Infuse Health
Strength of Honor
Judge's Insight
Great Dwarf Weapon
Zealot's Fire
Aura of Restoration
Reversal of Damage
Smite Hex or Smite Condition
If speccing Prot Spirit, drop Energy Storage by 1 and raise Protection Prayers by 6

Since this character doesn't have to maintain that many enchantments and since he's not primary Infuse either, I don't think Glyph of Swiftness is needed ... Reversal of Fortune might take place of the second smiting skill just to trigger Zealot's Fire. This probably works best with Dervishes since you are now essentially pumping their energy pool via Mysticism.

I don't know, this is just conjecture at the moment, and since I seldom play with physicals I'm not likely to get much chance trying this out.

Wish Swiftdeath

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2007

Mo/W

15 May 2009 at 08:20 - 143

Yeah infuse gives out a pretty good return. I can see 3 melee 5 monks being run

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

21 May 2009 at 06:04 - 144

Hmmm, maybe it won't get nerfed since ER is still not very popular from my recent experiences in HM ZQs. I've always thought of this as the most useful thing my ele can do in pve (since they're outclassed by physicals in dps, outclassed in support roles by necros, etc).

Oh and about maintaining 8 enchantments, wouldn't you need to be casting constantly to keep energy up even between fights? I think that seems a bit slow when your group is already moving on to the next mob and you're straggling behind.

What I do with pugs is I put Vital Blessing on 4 players including myself and the monk so I can keep up with the group. The 4 would usually not get targetted because of VB. It worked fine on a successful HM Vloxen pug. I never had ER stripped or interrupted (maybe due to VB stopping me from getting targetted?), except during some disorganized wipe situations (they 'forgot' to gtfo sandstorm) and the boss.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

21 May 2009 at 07:14 - 145

Regarding maintaining 8 enchantments, yes, you will need to be casting constantly to keep your energy up in between fights. Still I find it a worthy trade, especially since you've got 13 / 14 Energy Storage anyway so there's quite a while before you need to stop and refresh. Just be sure to tell your teammates that you need to refresh your energy. Personally I've found the energy drain slight enough to cope with at -5 and even -6.

I suggest you try maintaining 8 enchantments once, then deciding if the need to pause is too much for you, and eventually work out a compromise (eg. -1 energy degen from 5 Vital Blessings would hardly scratch your energy pool and ought to not bother you).

PS: Congrats on successfully PuGGing Vloxen's, I wound up H/H'ing the dungeon myself. The boss is a threat to ER - Expunge Enchantments from his minions annihilate all the prots you can put on someone. My heroes died a few times while I was there ... but the party never wiped and Zoldark died first. Congratulations again, it's a tough dungeon.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

24 May 2009 at 23:42 - 146

The Strength of Honor change doesn't make smiting all that more attractive; it only works on melee anyway and you rarely want to play turbo-melee in PvE even if you have a bunch of physicals. You're much better off making it work on a Monk Smiter.

After the first 6 skills (Ether Renewal, Aura of Restoration, Glyph of Swiftness, Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Infuse) I don't feel that anything you put on the character is that important. Maintained enchantments are reasonably good (pick your favorite), though it makes the character significantly more fragile, and forces your 8th skill to be something spammy (and weak) to keep your energy up.

If you don't take a maintained enchantment, you can really put whatever you want in those slots. You cover all the functionality you need from the first 6 slots so both can be fairly niche spells. I'm very partial to Great Dwarf Weapon provided you have at least two physicals to put it on; the amount of damage that does, and can prevent, far outpaces anything else I've found for that slot. For the other one, it really doesn't matter. I've put all sorts of random stuff there and never ended up using it in a game, and I didn't feel like I was missing anything because of it. I have a Vanguard Ward there at the moment, but of course all sorts of things would work just fine.

In the abstract the bonding versions have a higher peak power, but are also more fragile and less forgiving on how you micro it. Which is better is largely a function of how many other things you need to think about while playing the character.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

31 May 2009 at 07:20 - 147

@Ensign -

I agree with what you said about Strength of Honor. You can't overload melee. And since you can't overload melee ER's strengths in maintaining multiple enchantments simply does not apply. No point.

I'm completely partial against Great Dwarf Weapon however, perhaps because I only ever run casters in PvE. Massing casters is especially good with Life Attunement. With Life Attunements on everyone you can make Smiting Monks heal for heaps with every Reversal of Damage / Divine Healing. You only need you as a dedicated defensive character now, and every other character can both deal damage and play defensively, depending on what the team needs at that time. Maintaining 8 Life Attunements doesn't force your last skill to be something weak as well. I've maintained 8 enchantments before with Breath of the Great Dwarf as the last slot (OK so BotGD is weak, but that's not the point). You just need to stop more.

I find the bonding versions quite sturdy. Aside from LA pumping the heals from your partner Monk, LA + Shield Guardian also allows you to spam Infuse a lot more than you would otherwise. Since you never run out of energy it means also that you are not going to die unless the party takes too much damage to heal through (which doesn't happen that much) or when you're refreshing ER (unfortunate weakness).

I believe as well that if you are not maintaining enchantments, Glyph of Swiftness isn't necessary. You should have well over 70 energy when ER drops, and the downtime is less than 10 seconds. You need about 20 energy to put ER back up when it refreshes and start casting to regain energy. This gives you 50 energy + 13 from natural energy regen to use in that 10 seconds, which should more than suffice. You can even use Infuse Health once (or even twice) if you've got Kaolai etc to party heal you up, and that's not counting Aura's new, improved health and energy return. What's more, if you run into severe difficulties there's always the high set. Might as well drop Glyph for BotGD, GDW, Reversal of Fortune, Convert Hexes and whatnot, and spare the 4 points in Air to bring Energy Storage up to 12.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

07 Jun 2009 at 00:15 - 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

I'm completely partial against Great Dwarf Weapon however, perhaps because I only ever run casters in PvE.

This is perfectly reasonable if you are playing with heroes and henchmen. Heroes and henchmen are awful at playing any sort of physical bar, with the notable exception of Paragons - though on many maps it is not worth cutting a Necro hero or a smiter for a Paragon. Otherwise you're just discussing whether or not you want to put GDW on Ranger henchmen, vs living with the typical Necro/Mesmer henchie trash.

When playing with other players, not running physicals is almost always wrong.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

Maintaining 8 Life Attunements doesn't force your last skill to be something weak as well. I submit that if you are not running GDW, whatever you put in that slot is necessarily going to be weak.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

I find the bonding versions quite sturdy. Aside from LA pumping the heals from your partner Monk, LA + Shield Guardian also allows you to spam Infuse a lot more than you would otherwise. What does Shield Guardian have to do with spamming Infuse?

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

I believe as well that if you are not maintaining enchantments, Glyph of Swiftness isn't necessary. You should have well over 70 energy when ER drops, and the downtime is less than 10 seconds. The value of Glyph has very little to do with that, and more with having a choice about when Ether Renewal drops. 8-10 seconds without Ether Renewal is not an issue from an energy perspective; it is usually a problem from a health perspective, either due to broken aggro or needing to mash on Infuse.

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Might as well drop Glyph for BotGD, GDW, Reversal of Fortune, Convert Hexes and whatnot, and spare the 4 points in Air to bring Energy Storage up to 12. BotGD, Reversal of Fortune, and Convert Hexes aren't anywhere near as good as Glyph of Swiftness. They don't solve any problems, and don't prevent any problems from occuring the way Glyph of Swiftness does. If there were strong skills competing for the last slots, there would be more to discuss, but there aren't.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

07 Jun 2009 at 01:14 - 149

What does Shield Guardian have to do with spamming Infuse?

If you're running Shield Guardian you can cast more (Shield Guardian 1s cooldown) and therefore have more health to Infuse with.

Quote:

When I refer to fragility of the ER template, it always refers to how well it deals with Ether Renewal getting stripped / interrupted, or really nasty hexes or conditions getting on you (Backfire, Soul Leech, Dazed). It does not have anything to do with the amount of damage you can heal through under ideal conditions. Under ideal conditions a character maintaining 8 enchantments is obviously better.

Backfire Soul Leech who cares? Spirit Bond Prot Spirit yourself and cast anyway (yes I know they don't work against Soul Leech but they are enchantments, and they return you more health from Ether Renewal). Dazed who cares? 1/4s cast spells across the board, it only matters if it's past time to refresh ER (then you micro some condition removal on yourself). If Ether Renewal gets stripped or interrupted, you drop all maintained enchantments at once except possibly the one on you and start playing more conservatively. You're still almost as effective as if you weren't maintaining an enchantment anyway.

The real time when you are paralyzed is when you're maintaining Protective Bonds and your energy disappears before you can drop them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign
The value of Glyph has very little to do with that, and more with having a choice about when Ether Renewal drops. 8-10 seconds without Ether Renewal is not an issue from an energy perspective; it is usually a problem from a health perspective, either due to broken aggro or needing to mash on Infuse.

BotGD, Reversal of Fortune, and Convert Hexes aren't anywhere near as good as Glyph of Swiftness. They don't solve any problems, and don't prevent any problems from occuring the way Glyph of Swiftness does. If there were strong skills competing for the last slots, there would be more to discuss, but there aren't. Ether Renewal lasts 19 seconds with 14 Energy Storage, as you can have when not running 4 Air. +20% enchant mod and you get 23 seconds with a downtime of 8 seconds. Aura of Restoration heals 48 health per cast. Assuming you have some party heals in your team (which I always do), or if you have Breath of the Great Dwarf, then you can easily use Infuse three times, if you hit your Prots as well. Even without party heals in your team you can still easily use Infuse twice.

If your party is splintering in such a fashion that you need to mash Infuse with Shield Guardian and Life Attunement, then there's a good chance the 2-second window in which you're putting up Ether Renewal will likely result in deaths. If you aren't running Life Attunement then having Ether Renewal won't save you. I had the maths earlier in the thread, but pre-Aura buff. Assuming 4 enchantments on you (pretty standard) then Ether Renewal @ 13 Energy Storage restores 18 * 4 = 72 health and Aura of Restoration adds 10 * 480% = 48 health for a total of 120 health. If all this goes into Infuse @ 8 spec, then you get 120 * 119% = 143 health. Not a lot. And you yourself will be at 120 health while Infusing. If your party is already splintering then Ether Renewal without LA will not save the party. It might save you, but it won't save the party.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

07 Jun 2009 at 19:41 - 150

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
If you're running Shield Guardian you can cast more (Shield Guardian 1s cooldown) and therefore have more health to Infuse with.

I don't understand why Shield Guardian is any different from some combination of Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra

Backfire Soul Leech who cares? Spirit Bond Prot Spirit yourself and cast anyway (yes I know they don't work against Soul Leech but they are enchantments, and they return you more health from Ether Renewal).

The issue is less with those things themselves, but with the understanding that if they are getting cast on you then you are also getting hit with other things as well. Aggro on you often turns off Infuse, which is most likely to get kills. Hexes / Daze / etc are just more likely to cause that to be a problem.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

If Ether Renewal gets stripped or interrupted, you drop all maintained enchantments at once except possibly the one on you and start playing more conservatively. You're still almost as effective as if you weren't maintaining an enchantment anyway. More effective I think, since the Aura heal boost is all the more important in that case.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

Assuming you have some party heals in your team (which I always do), or if you have Breath of the Great Dwarf, then you can easily use Infuse three times, if you hit your Prots as well. Even without party heals in your team you can still easily use Infuse twice. You mean without Ether Renewal up don't you? With Ether Renewal up, you can Infuse pretty much endlessly with Life Attunement and Ether Renewal up, save for its tendency to draw aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra
If your party is splintering in such a fashion that you need to mash Infuse with Shield Guardian and Life Attunement Is the party splintering due to AoE on a henchieball? That's the only situation I've seen where mashing on Shield Guardian when splintering even starts to help. If you don't have a henchieball tanking AoE Shield Guardian is the worst skill on your bar to mash during an emergency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra
And you yourself will be at 120 health while Infusing. If your party is already splintering then Ether Renewal without LA will not save the party. It might save you, but it won't save the party. I'm not really sure where you're going with this. Are you trying to argue against dropping Glyph and Life Attunement? I don't think you should drop either of those spells; Life Attunement is way better than whatever else you could put in that slot, and Glyph helps fight the situation you're describing. I guess you could drop Life Attunement, and Glyph, and get...14 ES and a bunch of skills that aren't as good as Life Attunement and Glyph. Are you reinforcing that point or did I miss something?

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

07 Jun 2009 at 23:26 - 151

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
I don't understand why Shield Guardian is any different from some combination of Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit.

I really didn't think you would fail to understand this.

Spirit Bond has a cooldown of 2 seconds. Prot Spirit has a cooldown of 5 seconds. Aura of Restoration has a cooldown of 12 seconds. Shield Guardian has a cooldown of 1 second. Having Shield Guardian ensures that every single second you have can be spent casting (.25s cast + .75s aftercast = 1s = Shield Guardian cooldown). This allows you to crank more heals in unit time than you can otherwise. If you are unconvinced, try maintaining 8 enchantments with and without Shield Guardian. You will see a difference.

Also: Shield Guardian is an enchantment. It is a different enchantment from Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit. You can use it to pump ER. Granted, it ends quickly if you are taking damage. But you won't always be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
The issue is less with those things themselves, but with the understanding that if they are getting cast on you then you are also getting hit with other things as well. Aggro on you often turns off Infuse, which is most likely to get kills. Hexes / Daze / etc are just more likely to cause that to be a problem.

How can you be hit without also having Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond on yourself? Prot Spirit at least. You've got so much prots to spam, you might as well throw Prot Spirit on yourself, if not to prot damage, then to pump Ether Renewal. And if you do have Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond on yourself then why do you care about getting hit? Aggro on you does almost nothing to turn you off - you Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond yourself and keep casting. It stops you from Infusing that much, but if the aggro's on you then your teammates should be taking less damage and so need less Infusing. I know, because one of my standard tactics when using ER is to use myself as a quasi-Obsidian tank. Usually the only threat to that tactic is losing ER (interrupts, KDs, enchant removal). Hexes I can usually laugh off - the really dangerous ones are Migraine, Arcane Conundrum and Diversion, with the former two only a problem when ER is dropping. Backfire / Soul Leech / Shame / Mark of Subversion do not hurt you too badly if at all. Haven't met Dazed much, although I don't see how it is different from Migraine / Arcane Conundrum (or if it's from Incubi, wherupon Soulrending Shriek removes enchantments too). If it's too big a problem micro Foul Feast and get rid of it.

There are times such a cavalier attitude to Infuse and aggro can cause you to die. From my H/H Duncan runs I know that two such examples are Infusing onto a target with Scourge Healing / Soul Bind, which can cause a huge sudden spike in health loss, and any damage that goes through Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond (most importantly life stealing). But such times are uncommon. Actually not uncommon. They're really rare. And you can still deal with Scourge Healing and Soul Bind with Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign

You mean without Ether Renewal up don't you? With Ether Renewal up, you can Infuse pretty much endlessly with Life Attunement and Ether Renewal up, save for its tendency to draw aggro. **** drawing aggro. Tank it! With Life Attunement and Ether Renewal, you're looking at 200++ health / cast, which is essentially 200 healing per second. And chances are you will have Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on yourself. You're almost invulnerable. What's the problem?

It is my experience that the only major problem is losing Ether Renewal, either it being stripped or interrupted while you are refreshing. If that happens, you still have Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond and Life Attunement on yourself. The +126 from Spirit Bond triggering will keep your red bar full for its duration. Drop all (other) maintained enchants, and if the damage looks too heavy to keep up with with ER down, run. In this way it is no more fragile than not having the maintained enchantment. If you don't have the maintained enchantment, then all you gain is the time it takes to drop all enchantments, and the extra enery loss incurred while the entire "get-interrupted-and-drop-enchantments" episode is happening. There's also aggro, which can be on you. But if aggro hasn't broken yet then you can ... tank it with Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond, and if aggro has broken then you run for it / count on your partner Monk(s) to rise to the occasion, no difference.

Is the party splintering due to AoE on a henchieball? That's the only situation I've seen where mashing on Shield Guardian when splintering even starts to help. If you don't have a henchieball tanking AoE Shield Guardian is the worst skill on your bar to mash during an emergency. I can give you examples where you need Shield Guardian with henchmen already flagged apart, but that's irrelevant. The point is, if you don't need Shield Guardian + LA for Infuse purposes, then what's the problem with dropping Glyph? You said having Glyph is necessary because of health problems when ER is down. Except by this same argument you won't need to Infuse too badly right?

Shield Guardian might be the worst spell to mash in an emergency, but it can also be the only recharged spell (not counting LA and Infuse).

I'm not really sure where you're going with this. Are you trying to argue against dropping Glyph and Life Attunement? I don't think you should drop either of those spells; Life Attunement is way better than whatever else you could put in that slot, and Glyph helps fight the situation you're describing. I guess you could drop Life Attunement, and Glyph, and get...14 ES and a bunch of skills that aren't as good as Life Attunement and Glyph. Are you reinforcing that point or did I miss something? You missed something. The argument is that you don't need Glyph. If you need Glyph because you need ER up to keep Infusing because the party is splintering, then it's too late. You're almost certainly going to take casualties, unless you are running Life Attunement - wherupon you need the Glyph anyway because it's a maintained enchantment (I said no Glyph when no maintained enchantment).

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

08 Jun 2009 at 06:02 - 152

I really didn't think you would fail to understand this.

Infuse has a cooldown of 0 seconds.

One of the reasons I like Breath of the Great Dwarf is that between Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Infuse, and Aura, you already have plenty of spells to spam every second if need be. There is no particular reason why any additional spell needs to be spammable; it is more important that it adds something that your other spells do not.

Quote:

Having Shield Guardian ensures that every single second you have can be spent casting (.25s cast + .75s aftercast = 1s = Shield Guardian cooldown).

This is not correct. The cast time does not factor into the cooldown. Spamming Shield Guardian results in casting a spell every 1.25 seconds.

Quote:

I can give you examples where you need Shield Guardian with henchmen already flagged apart, but that's irrelevant. Please do share. I have never encountered a situation where I felt that Shield Guardian was anything but a dead skill on my bar, something that was cast extraordinarily sparingly. The skill is not nearly powerful enough for something I cast once every couple minutes.

How can you be hit without also having Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond on yourself? Prot Spirit at least...**** drawing aggro. Tank it! With Life Attunement and Ether Renewal, you're looking at 200++ health / cast, which is essentially 200 healing per second. And chances are you will have Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on yourself. You're almost invulnerable. What's the problem?

Damage on yourself is not the concern, as much as all the other crap that comes with having aggro on you. Damage is only a concern if you find yourself having to Infuse spam while taking damage yourself.

Of course, that situation usually means that someone did something stupid.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

In this way it is no more fragile than not having the maintained enchantment. Besides the opportunity cost of whatever else you could have in the slot of that maintained enchantment. However I've come to think that there isn't anything obviously better than just maintaining Life Attunement on yourself with that slot, so this is largely a moot point, until such a time that there potentially is something better to put in that slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

You missed something. The argument is that you don't need Glyph. If you need Glyph because you need ER up to keep Infusing because the party is splintering, then it's too late. Note that the value of Glyph in splintering situations is that the first Ether Renewal of the encounter is glyphed. The second one, in an emergency situation, is usually unglyphed. The difference is that you can then cast the 2nd ER at any point you want. Without glyph you have a forced downtime before you can put ER back up.

Originally Posted by Jeydra

(I said no Glyph when no maintained enchantment). What would you run instead? If you're not running a maintained enchantment or glyph, what could you possibly run instead? I don't understand why this train of thought is useful at all.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

08 Jun 2009 at 06:58 - 153

Infuse makes you lose health, not gain it.

Quote:

This is not correct. The cast time does not factor into the cooldown. Spamming Shield Guardian results in casting a spell every 1.25 seconds.

Doesn't matter. Shield Guardian essentially lets you spam on cooldown. You might not have to cast Shield Guardian -> Shield Guardian, but you can certainly Shield Guardian -> Spirit Bond -> Shield Guardian -> Prot Spirit -> Shield Guardian -> Spirit Bond etc. That should be obvious.

Quote:

Itsss ovvveerrr 9000!!!!

P.S Dont forget vengeance.

ive actully seen this run on HA randomway. lolz

Then you are doing it wrong.

You've got a minimum of Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Life Attunement, Aura of Restoration and Ether Renewal on yourself. You are almost invulnerable so long as ER stays up and you keep casting. Here's the proof. Those 5 enchantments + 13 Energy Storage = 90. Aura of Restoration gives you 48 health for a total of 138. LA @ 12 Protection Prayers is +43% health healed, for a total of 197.34 health healed every second.

What could possibly deal more than 197.34 damage per second? If that something is dealing it in packets more than 60, you're already safe because Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond combine to give you a net 0 health loss. What else is there? Minion attacks? Sure they deal less than 60 damage, but they also do it slow. They are not going to deal 197.34 DPS.

I can safely say that in all my time of running Ether Renewal, I have killed myself with Infuse in only three situations. First: Infusing while tanking unprottable vampiric damage (see below). This happened the most times, perhaps because of the areas I frequent. Second: Infusing onto a target with Scourge Healing. Only happened once. Third: Infusing after a Symbiosis dropped, causing instant death. Only happened once. I can conceivably see me killing myself against unprottable Holy damage as well, but it hasn't happened yet.

You can easily keep Infusing while taking damage.

If you can't, then maybe you should run Shield Guardian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Please do share. I have never encountered a situation where I felt that Shield Guardian was anything but a dead skill on my bar, something that was cast extraordinarily sparingly. The skill is not nearly powerful enough for something I cast once every couple minutes. The Wilds today. I was running Melonni and Koss + GDW. Unprottable life stealing (yay) with no Shield Guardian to pump HP cost me hard. First time I used Vital Blessing instead of LA and wiped. Second time I used LA but kept GDW, and wiped. Shortly after that I decided to screw Melonni and Koss and go back to casterballs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Note that the value of Glyph in splintering situations is that the first Ether Renewal of the encounter is glyphed. The second one, in an emergency situation, is usually unglyphed. The difference is that you can then cast the 2nd ER at any point you want. Without glyph you have a forced downtime before you can put ER back up. It's a good point but so what?

Without Ether Renewal, in the short term, the things you cannot use are Infuse (not too much spam anyway) and maintaining enchantments. The latter does not matter since you're not maintaining one (assumption). The first you can still use Infuse twice easily. If those two Infuses aren't enough to save your team from wiping, then I doubt more Infuses @ 150 health each will. Maybe they will save a couple more people, but half the team are going to wipe anyway. Like I said above: if your party is already splintering then Ether Renewal without LA will not save the party. It might save you, but it won't save the party.

Of course without the Glyph you could have BotGD and save some people, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What would you run instead? If you're not running a maintained enchantment or glyph, what could you possibly run instead? I don't understand why this train of thought is useful at all. BotGD, Air of Superiority, a Vanguard Ward, Convert Hexes, an Asuran summon, a Vanguard Sin, I Am Unstoppable, Mindbender + Heal Party, Reversal of Fortune, Aegis, etc.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

08 Jun 2009 at 07:14 - 154

Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+GoS+ER+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+GoS+ER+I nfuse

That's all.

Rasco

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2009

Mo/

08 Jun 2009 at 07:16 - 155

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post

Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+GoS+ER+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+Infuse+GoS+ER+I nfuse

That's all.
Not enuff, roll wammoo

Defy pain+ endure pain + signet of stamina + infuse health = win

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

10 Jun 2009 at 01:28 - 156

First time I used Vital Blessing instead of LA and wiped. Second time I used LA but kept GDW, and wiped. Between knockdowns from GDW preventing damage and Infuse I had no problem whatsoever with those mobs. 80 damage lifesteal touches do not even begin to outrace 400+ heath heals.

Perhaps if you can't deal with that with Infuse, you might need Shield Guardian? I will say this about Shield Guardian - it is a much, much easier skill to maximize than Infuse.

Why do I need to spam on cooldown?

You are almost certainly casting way too many Shield Guardians in the above rotation. You are almost certainly better off slow-rolling an Infuse or two.

I stand by my assertion that in order to make Shield Guardian worth a slot, you necessarily need to cast it instead of much better spells, which weakens your character overall. It is useful in situations, but not as useful as Glyph or Life Attunement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

What could possibly deal more than 197.34 damage per second?...You can easily keep Infusing while taking damage.

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Like I said above: if your party is already splintering then Ether Renewal without LA will not save the party. It might save you, but it won't save the party. You keep bringing this up and I am still confused as to why, as I still consider it largely irrelevant. You are dropping Glyph + Life Attunement for *something*. What is it, and why is it better than those two skills? Sure, you don't *have* to bring Glyph or Attunement. You can live without them. But I haven't found anything that makes the character more robust than those skills.

FWIW: I consider the most powerful / important skills on the bar to be Prot Spirit, Great Dwarf Weapon, and Ether Renewal, in roughly that order, followed by Spirit Bond, then Infuse + Life Attunement, then Aura, the Glyph. While I'm hesitant to cut either I'd cut Aura before Life Attunement. I'm most interested in cutting Glyph, but again I've found nothing yet that strengthens the character more than having that second Ether Renewal per encounter on command.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

10 Jun 2009 at 01:52 - 157

How much health do you lose from casting Infuse per second? What's the net healing you gain while casting Infuse? If you are going to show numbers, please make sure that the numbers you are showing are relevant to the point you are making.

FWIW: I consider the most powerful / important skills on the bar to be Prot Spirit, Great Dwarf Weapon, and Ether Renewal, in roughly that order, followed by Spirit Bond, then Infuse + Life Attunement, then Aura, the Glyph. While I'm hesitant to cut either I'd cut Aura before Life Attunement. I'm most interested in cutting Glyph, but again I've found nothing yet that strengthens the character more than having that second Ether Renewal per encounter on command.
At the risk of arguing with someone that's better at the game than I am, I'll respond to and argue a bit with these two points.

But I'll also preface it with this - Shield Guardian is worthless. To make it worthwhile, the target has to be under attack, and then the enchant ends for a measly 70-something heal and then they're still under fire.

I don't know (and truthfully at this point don't care) about how the mechanics work, but I know that with Life Attunement and I believe AoR, the life heal/loss levels out spamming Infuse and you're left at about 50% health free to spam your Infuse all you like.

Heal party is a terrible skill on the bar, namely because that even with Mindbender, it's much easier to blast off several infuses to bring each party up by 300 or so instead of casting HP several times to mop up whatever AoE it is that's afflicting your party.

Ensign, I'd seriously argue with your order of skills there, particularly with PS and SB. Infuse outranks them both - that was the whole point of my initial post, mainly that you can blast off Infuse so much and so fast that enemy damage can't keep up.

I'd say it's Infuse/PS/AoR, namely that the first and the third complement each other, while PS is there just so that some HM lvl 32 ele boss can't one-shot 75% of your party with some elite aoe.

The bar, at least when I ran it...
Glyph, AoR, ER, Infuse, Life Attune, Prot Spirit, optional, optional

Prots are almost redundant, as you can powerheal more effectively than N/Rts, N/Mos, or HB monks could dream of.

zzz

Originally Posted by Ensign View Post

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

10 Jun 2009 at 03:19 - 158

I'd say it's Infuse/PS/AoR, namely that the first and the third complement each other, while PS is there just so that some HM lvl 32 ele boss can't one-shot 75% of your party with some elite aoe.

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny View Post

Boss encounters are typically going to be the most difficult, basically the fights you need to be most prepared for. Trash groups aren't going to one shot party members so Infuse spamming will suffice for those encounters; the risk of death in those situations should be minimal. Protective Spirit's worth against bosses, the fights that matter as the chances of death increase, makes it invaluable. It's a similar argument against the usefulness of Spiteful Spirit; to get the most mileage out of that skill it has to be used on the last enemy you're going to kill, the least threatening one. Protective Spirit falls on the other end of the spectrum becoming more powerful the more threatening the enemy is. Sure Protective Spirit may only shine in a handful of scenarios but consider the difficulty reduction it offers in those instances.

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While I'm hesitant to cut either I'd cut Aura before Life Attunement. I'm most interested in cutting Glyph, but again I've found nothing yet that strengthens the character more than having that second Ether Renewal per encounter on command. I'd argue the ability to keep the Ether Renewal up puts it above Life Attunement and Aura of Restoration. Like Protective Spirit it's going to help more in those difficult situations. In the event the second Ether Renewal needs to be used odds are something is going wrong and you need time to figure out what needs to be done to get things right. The effects granted by Life Attunement and Aura of Restoration can be replicated simply by feeding Ether Renewal more enchantments, a feat that can be achieved by the other bars in play. Granted Life Attunement can be maintained on other casters but the usefulness of that characteristic varies depending on the party composition. After all a physical heavy party more than likely consists of Order of Pain and Dark Fury to assist in powering Ether Renewal; while an additional two enchantments won't match the same health return as Aura of Restoration you'd have to consider the frequency Infuse Health needs to be applied as the majority of the party would be boasting higher armor values.

However the other factor to consider is whether something can be put to better use in that slot as already mentioned. Depending on the situation two additional PvE skills could surely find a way to strengthen the character. Although it also depends on what you consider the more valuable asset of the bar; Infuse Health spamming or infinite energy to draw upon. The former would be more geared to finding skills that make the character more resilient while the latter finding more ways to make use of all the energy it has. All and all it will depend on the makeup of the party and what you can expect to encounter.

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

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Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

10 Jun 2009 at 04:01 - 159

Originally Posted by Racthoh

After all a physical heavy party more than likely consists of Order of Pain and Dark Fury to assist in powering Ether Renewal;
...and Aegis makes 3.

And at that point you have an argument for DKiss.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

10 Jun 2009 at 07:46 - 160

Obviously I'm casting too many Shield Guardians in the above rotation, but it is ... an example. If you ever need it you can call upon it. Kinda like if you ever need ER to be up all the time you can call on the Glyph to allow you that.

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