Why WOW can't kill Guild Wars

Someone missed Strain's '07 memo about GW not competing with WoW?

Yeah, the WoW vs GW debate is always hilarious. Its like comparing Pokemon to Final Fantasy. Completely different games.

There is a huge flaw in your argument. If Guild Wars had a monthly fee it would have more content and update more frequently. So yes, I would.

I was just about to bring that one up.

For the supposed info that's out there about GW2 that people are using as ammo for the "OMG WoW clone!" argument, it's possible that this information was very embrionic and could change (and we may never know it HAS changed until release because of the NDA). Also, those rumours may have been started to throw the competition off.

You know, I don't want to agree with this but it seems pretty much true. I hate to admit, but I started to get this feeling as soon as I played factions and got to the Kurz/Luxon part where you are required to farm 10k faction to advance the story. A little grind is fine, I think people like earning, but stuff like the EotN factions is just a bad idea IMO. I wish all faction titles were like Sunspear, r8 or 9 by the end of the game?

Untrue, the grind in GW is strictly optional, the grind in WoW is required. That is, if you considering doing quests grind, which I did the whole time playing (4+ years now). Guild Wars fills the majority of it's game with interesting quests (most of them) and missions which are fun the first two or three times.

However, one could argue that this is because of lack of creativity in the community. I wouldn't say 50%, that's a bit much, but you are right to an extent since some skills need balancing and tweaking. If people really want to see skills tweaked that aren't up to par with their ideals, why not list them in the suggestions forum and adjust them as the community sees reasonable?

What do you expect? A lot of the GW community feels that Anet owes them more than they actually do. People want skill balances, no they want new content! NO! Now they want X suggestion implemented! SHAZBOT! NOW THEY WANT GW 2 INFO! If I worked at Anet I'd be pulling my hair out if I had to put up with the community here. The biggest problem of all is that the vast majority just whine, they don't even offer to remedy the situation, whatever it may be.

GW won't die for the same reason EQ won't die... At it's core it's got something very unique and fun. However, if they want to continue with their success I urge them to look at their roots, and remember what their original product was. This is the issue with so many sequels it's baffling to the mind, they want to make something "better" or add something in to "spice" the game up, all the while forgetting their roots.

Look anywhere, you'll likely see it in every sequel (in the form of campaigns with GW).

Skill over time! Leave this behind and you leave the very foundation of the game behind.

EDIT: I should also point out that I agree with everyone that has said it's dumb to make a WoW vs GW argument, the 15$ a month difference means the argument is already void of any value. Quite a few people I know play both anyway, and that's just fine and dandy.

Competition is healthy.

It only ends in us all having better games to play.

The "This Game vs This Game" argument is logically flawed, unless you want to play crap games.

the only reason i stick with gw for 4 years is because wow is too time consuming, or i would be playing it with all my friends lol. 15$ a month is nothing unless you're a kid. I waste more than that in chips/soda per month..buy 2 bags of chip+ 1 2 liter soda..there goes your 15$.

Thing is you still waste THAT money while you pay to play a mmorpg, you don't stop snacking just because some online game costs you an ADDITIONAL $15. Plus if you keep doing that you'll get diabetes 2 later on if you don't already have it. Also, there's much cheaper chips and soda. I can buy 2 bags of chips and 2 bottles of soda for $4.00

Played WoW since it came out, off and on.

Played GW since Prophecies went online.

For me, WoW eventually came to an end. GW never comes to an end. Always something new to do, and taking a break is free!

What brought me over from WoW to begin with was just one thing a developer of GW said. In GW, all characters could use a longbow! I was playing a Paladin in WoW at the time and it seemed utterly stupid that a wondrous Knight of the Silver Hand could not so much as chunk a rock to pull a target.

Pretty much same here wilebill, in WoW you kind of feel obligated to play it even if you don't want to because you just spent money on a gamecard or such. One of the hugest draws to GW for me was exactly what you said, sort of. The dual class system as well as the raw versatility that every class has is a wonderful thing, and generates a lot of curiosity and appeal. Sure, I was astonished at the back of the box, showing the hamstorm build, then later disappointed finding it didn't work, but the idea alone is wonderful. That, and as you said, taking a break costs you nothing, and you aren't forced to pay as you play.

The pay to play is WoW's advantage, as it gives them ample resources for new servers and upgrades, new staff and of course new content. The only problem with said new content is that it doesn't last very long, and takes far too long to develop when considering all the money people are shoving into Blizzards mouth. I guess that's what happens when you're developing several other games (SC2, next expansion, D3, mystery MMO). I am greatly please with WotLK though, they've really gotten serious about what they're doing and made the game a lot more skill>time oriented. No longer are people required to do moronically tedious quests just to do the high end dungeons, and no longer are they just for the hardcore folk.

However it works the same way in reverse with Anet and their projects, they've gotten a nice amount of success with their games so far, and that continues to grow steadily it seems. However, the growth is not enough to bring in the money required to hire the staff needed to supplement the team in order to please the upset, angsty people that rant all day about not getting what they want. Just because NCsoft is backing them doesn't mean that Anet is rolling in the green. They've either gotta work on GW2, or GW1. While I agree certain things should change and get fixed... Well... I guess it's just easiest to say it's not as easy as it looks.

very interesting, sadly though I think they are going to take Guild Wars2 in a some what drastic direction from gw1 to more of a WoW style game. I was about to make a tread on here asking what people think are the core Game Mechanics of Guild Wars and which of these would they like to see in Guild Was2

Interesting what you say there about WoW now being skill > time orientated since WotLK... I actually think the complete opposite. I was until very recently GM of a guild called Sepultavi on Nagrand EU (character Tourn). We'd cleared all content and I felt it was by far the easiest content to date, there was no need for crowd control and we didn't spend more than a couple of hours learning any boss fights.

I said in an earlier post that one thing I love about Guild Wars is that I can log on for 30 minutes and achieve something, that is impossible on WoW. another huge thing which I forgot to mention is that I love not having to rely on other people all the time - Heroes are such a great idea.

I personally stopped WoW recently because of some changes in my real life (moving house and job) so I didn't have time to carry on - it's the best thing that's ever happened to me! I love the freedom of playing Guild Wars when I have time, unlike WoW which was like a second job.

Validates what most of us already know. WoW and Guild Wars are two different animals. Nice to see someone discover and appreciate GW like the majority of us did way back.

If they had charged $15 a month it would have changed the whole dynamic. They would have to have added content to justify the payment.
So basically that is an irrelevant comment.

The only "argument" I see there is that Guild Wars isn't WoW and that's why WoW isn't "killing" it. The same can be said about Halo. Or Tetris. What a dumb argument.

This is why I hate blogs.

What GuidoNecromancer said right here reflects how I feel about GW and not just WoW but MMO's in general. Being able to log on, get right into the action and not always having to rely on others just to have some fun or get something done is something Anet did completely right. I know many traditional MMO players might disagree but keeping the grouping optional most of the time really makes the game more enjoyable in the long run. It essentially takes the downtime you would normally face in the amount of time it would take to form a group and make the most out of your time.

Why more MMO's don't do this with today's busy lifestyles is something I don't entirely understand, I just hope ArenaNet sticks to this idea of theirs and runs with it.

True that. But if GW had a monthly fee, a lot less people would have subscribed to this game in the first place. Many have bought GW because of the 'no monthly fee' on the box. Just asking it in my alliance told me about half of them would never ever pay a subscription, a slim percentage would pay it for GW if (like you said) a lot more of content was added.

And remember GW was launched when WoW was all the hype. People who didn't had any problems paying a subscription were happily playing WoW, leveling to 60, raiding, crafting, grinding there asses off and altogether getting sucked into the game.

People who didn't liked the idea of paying subscription, noticed GW and the no monthly fee. (hey it's why I didn't get WoW in the first place, and began playing GW with a friend.)

Of course there's more to GW than the no monthly fee. Yet I still think GW has been so successful because if the business idea of 'pick it up when you want to play and drop while you bored'. It worked for me and lots of other players. The mechanics introduced by Anet suits that model: instanced gameplay, map travel, elite zone can be cleared under 3 hours...makes it more casual and not as hardcore as WoW. Small bouts of play opposed to getting your entire evening occupied by one single raid.

However, this model doesn't suit a classic MMO, because content can be completed very fast. And with GW, after you've cleared Prophecies there was nothing left to do but farm for your Obsidian armor. (Note I'm only talking about PvE here). With a subscription, a lot more content would had to be added to keep players playing (and not lose them to WoW). And not only new zones, because you just run through them while doing quests,and elite areas can be cleared only so many times before getting boring, but new game modes.

Anet realized this, and to keep players busy, they added Hardmode, titles, HoM. More, they are now making GW2, offering a diversity of races, world PvP, non instanced zones....without having to pay for a subscription!

Yet, most of this is speculation from my side. No one knows what would had become from GW if it had a monthly fee. Would it have shined next to WoW, because of GW appealing to a different crowd? Or would it have slowly died away, not able to compete with WoW's vast content/huge fanbase/massive lore?

EDIT:

I noticed in people's responses a lot of them indeed love the way GW is set up: instanced gameplay, small bouts of play when you want it. To those people: If GW would have had a massive world (10*Prophecies), so you would never have to be afraid to run out of content, would you still pay 15$ a month, and at the same time allow yourself to keep playing GW in those short bouts, not logging in for 2 weeks because you are busy, and just as well play only for a few hours each week?

Wow can't kill Guild Wars... because its not trying to.

I brought this up in the F2P vs P2P debate last week - You can ask as many people as you like what their favourite games are and you'll get an infinate number of replies because even directly competing games in the same genre appeal to different people in different ways. If those two games can survive in the same market is a totally different story (as we've seen with all the mmos that have gone bust).

If people want to compare a b2p CORPG with a p2p MMORPG go ahead.

Oh and as for the awards... thats due to Guild Wars not fitting in a nice box for the awards and the title being entered into the nearest one. I don't see that there are a lot of CORPGs for Guild Wars to compete with such that those giving the awards could make a new catagory.

That was a bad article, there's not a thing in there that non of us don't already know. the Dimsum Queen only got one part right, she pick up the game too late .

However her decision of wanting to write an article about a game so late in its "life span" did tell you why GW won't die. because its a good game! years later someone who has never play before picking up the game will still be able to enjoy it. unless offcourse GW2 is out and far far way way better then GW.

I have seen massive world MMO's but the actual content (read: scenery, landmarks, mobs, etc.) was severely lacking so what you're left with is a lot of empty land to explore along with more invisible walls than ever before. So I think in the end, most players don't need/want a massive world, what they want is content that is numerous and solid.

So to answer your question, I admit, I would be tempted to pay the $15 a month but only if it's not empty and as barren as an ettin's back. But just to add, it would still need to have hench/heroes so I can go explore it all on my time.

Edit: Just wanted to add that the day I'd join WoW is the day they add at least henchmen.

WoW completely destroys Guild Wars. And.... all this crap about its graphics... AHAHHAHA. At max resolution and settings (assuming you have a good PC obviously), WoW looks amazing....

Guild Wars will never beat WoW, because WoW is so much larger and sprawling. Guild Wars has its appeal, but it cannot beat WoW.... period.

That is not to say though, that Guild Wars is a bad game; it is simply just seen its best days and is on a decline. WoW went through a phase like that when Warhammer released, but all those players have returned to WoW because... Warhammer is meh.

As has been said that is subjective. I don't like the cartoon look of WOW characters as to the more realistic look of GW characters. But, to each his own.

You hit the nail on the head. WOW may not be able to kill GW but Anet sure can. The one feature that I enjoy about GW is the instanced areas. Yes Anet has said that GW2 will have instanced areas however it will not be the same as it is now. Time and again companies have made sequals to games that pale in comparison to the original because they deviate from the sucessful formula of the first game. GW2 seems right on target for that...

Comparing GW and WOW is like comparing apples and oranges. Both game have completely different design philosophies. I think because GW has had alot of success it is only natural to compare it to something else that has been successful as well. Now we all hope and pray GW2 will give us alot more fun and more good times.

I love reading that.

It's almost proof positive that GW2 is going to be fantastic.

It's not the money that bothers me, if Guild Wars got improved, new areas, bigger areas, nastier monsters, etc, then I wouldn't particularly mind paying. As long as it kept the pick up and play ability that it does at the moment.

I must admit I love playing Guild Wars for the story lines, if these got continued on a regular basis/digressions (right word?) added I would certainly get hooked.

In WoW from experience you take 2 months off you're so far behind it's a ball-ache to catch up with everyone again. Luckily I was GM of a pretty decent guild for a long time so I could use that to my advantage in terms of having a break etc.

From the very vague information ANet has given us on GW2, it seems that they're going for the traditional MMORPG features, but not making GW2 a MMORPG. This could be a good thing. This may kill Guild Wars for the people who played the game because of the unique features that Guild Wars has to offer, but overall I think it will attract more players. In my opinion, there are 2 main aspects to Guild Wars 2 success: reputation of Guild Wars, and the style of the game. If Guild Wars has a good reputation by beta, has some traditional MMORPG features while keeping some unique Guild Wars features, the game will be a success. It will attract some former Guild Wars players, while attracting people who want to play a game but can't invest a lot of time into it. It all depends on how ANet handles it.

Is that even possible. I think the person you quoted is basically 100% correct in their assessment. Even GW1 has become more and more typical over the years. There is no reason to think GW2 won't fully complete the transition.

I think you contradicted yourself there.

Because, of course, any average joe can holster and shoot longbows with perfect accuracy.

Pete Moleyneux says hi.

Twice.

Also, at anyone who hasn't played WoW since Wrath (from what I can gather, almost everyone in this thread), you aren't at a place to speak against WoW, as the game design changed dramatically since then.

Whether it's changed for the worse has yet to be seen, though. Everything's jack-shit easy.

They just made the game more casual friendly (or too casual friendly, depending on your perspective).

I bet people on these forums would like that. Raids and Instances in WoW are like The Deep/Urgoz, except fun and less gimmicky.

At this point, far too casual friendly.

I've been sitting at "Epic" for over a month now. I hope the new content they release can't be breezed through as easily.

But like I said: We'll see what they do with Ulduar and the content thereafter, in conclusion with the gear progession compared to that of the 10-mans to the 25-mans. If they pluck it up, it may be going down the same route as Guild Wars. Started in BC, just kept getting simplier.

WoW looks very nice actually; they added proper character shadows to WoTLK, and obviously spent a lot more time on the graphics for the new content. The entire Icecrown zone is jaw-dropping, and the new screenshots of Ulduar look really good.

They apparently also just added high definition textures to the game on the patch test server. I don't have an active subscription, so I can't comment on how that looks.

GW1 obviously isn't going to beat WoW. GW2 just might. You never know. There are a lot of legacy design decisions in WoW that I'm sure they'd love to change but can't, and that boat moves very slowly. Consider whether random WoW PUG player understands expertise/expertise rating, spell hit/spell hit rating, melee hit/melee hit rating, defense/defense rating, resilience, etc. and what the soft- or hard- caps are for all of these, as well as concepts such as parry hasting, the dual-wield penalty, and so forth.

WoW is still pretty "old school" mechanics wise because it came out so long ago. GW2 is starting with a clean slate and can hopefully avoid some of this needless complexity. GW1 already has fairly streamlined mechanics; I always liked that you never randomly missed an attack for no reason. Back in Asheron's Call 2 I remember that the miss rate was something like 30% even when you maxxed out your masteries.

Indeed they did, and I'm quite pleased with it. Although I was a little bit POed at how little an average quest gave me in WotLK I was still happy that I could get into a group and actually succeed for once, instead of our tank losing aggro and our group wiping. People say not to PuG, but it's harder than it looks simply because the majority of guilds on our server aren't too casual friendly and require people do certain things. The only thing that bugs me about WoW now is the arenas, I loathe them and they aren't a damn thing like the arenas in GW. WoW should be focused more on open world PvP like Warhammer, but all people care about is their leet epics so why even bother. When I first started WoW in late 04 the PvP was insanely addictive, constant raids on towns and cities, it really did feel like a World of WARcraft. Nobody cared about gear, and the only raid instance was Molten Core(I think?). WoW's hugest flaw is it's community I suppose, GW is just as bad in that department though.

GW's instances makes things good and bad at the same time, depending on who you are. I love instances, but dislike them as well simply because of the fact that I don't have to put up with bots or farmers while playing in PvE. I hate it because when you make a friend in an MMO it's usually out in the open just exploring or doing a quest, thus it's unlikely you'll make any friends unless you're lucky enough to find someone while doing a mission.

Neither game is perfect, and neither should really be compared to each other with a >serious< attitude. As has been said, it's like comparing apples to oranges, both are fruits and have distinct advantages, however they aren't the same so it's silly to act like they are.

Yes, it is. Based on what we have been told and some assumptions, GW2 will have

- Higher level cap (traditional MMO)
- Instant max level PvP character (Pretty unique)
- Mostly instanced areas (Not exactly unique, but not like a traditional MMO)
- Less/optional grind (nothing like a traditional MMO)
- Characters can be different races (traditional MMO)
- All weapons/armor are the same, no super powerful/epic gear (Pretty unique)

That's just to name a few. As you can see, there are traditional MMO features, while still having unique Guild Wars features.

As far as instancing goes, it sounds like just GW2 dungeons will be instanced, and the rest of the world won't be. That's pretty much what most MMOs are like these days.

From what they've said, weapon and armor (and levels) won't be normalized in world PvP, but will in competitive PvP formats. So powerful gear can exist. There won't be a "PvP character" per se, all that happens is your PvE character's stats get normalized when put into a competitive PvP format. So you will PvP and PvE with the same character.

Yeah, after reading the wiki it seems that missions and dungeons will be the only ones instanced. As far as PvP characters go, it seems like you'll get max level and everything unlocked for structured PvP, which isn't quite like the traditional MMO.

As for weapons/gear, I can't seem to find anything on it, which is why I'm assuming it won't change much. Feel free to provide a link regarding it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guil...The_Status_Quo

Equipment is a lot more important in Guild Wars 2. You will be able find a lot of cool items that will help with character development. Why that was different in Guild Wars 1 is because we designed PvP to be focused on player skill. Nobody should have an advantage just because they played longer than others. This same problem will be resolved in Guild Wars 2 in a different way: in World PvP all players will have different levels and equipment - and that is okay. In GvG all character properties including the abilities and the equipment are adjusted so that all players are on equal ground. That way, the e-sport standard is assured for elaborate tournaments, while still allowing us to go crazy with item design

Do you have a source for this? If not I'm just going to say it's too good to be true.

Nevermind, I fail at reading. Well, I just hope it's not like most MMOs, where people can start relying on their super leet items to carry them as apposed to actual player skill filling the majority.

It's pointless to play wow, it's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin terrible. Grind grind grind for 12 hours straight , because let's face it you aren't anyone in wow unless you dedicate your life to it, sleep , wake up grind grind grind oh did i mention the endless grinding? i've played wow too and my brother is addicted to it. i make fun of him all the time he's playing it right now.

You obviously haven't played WoW.