Yeah but if you're using brawling headbutt, you stop attacking, thus ["Dodge This!"] won't end, consequently the finales won't trigger. That's what I understand from the game's mechanics back when I used to play. Correct me if that's changed.
Not following this either. When you shout ["dodge this!"], it affects your next attack. It's not going to affect [brawling headbutt], because [brawling headbutt] is a touch skill. But as long as you get in another attack before the shout ends (and you have 16-20 seconds, depending on your Norn rank), it'll work. Then rinse and repeat.
07 May 2009 at 15:22 - 170
BH is inferior to GDW on this build simply because of how effing fast you attack, giving you just as frequent KD's while you attack instead the crappy cast and aftercast of using a skill. BH also work well on warriors because they can make it 3-second KD's and can't get more than a 33% IAS (and they have [Dragon Slash]). It's not that BH is a bad skill at all, it's just that GDW gets its efficiency multiplied several times over within this build since it has (from what I know) the fastest attack speed in the game.
07 May 2009 at 22:45 - 171
It's clear at this point that neither side is going to convince the other about [brawling headbutt] vs. [great dwarf weapon]. I'm just going to make one last point against [great dwarf weapon], and then I'm going to leave it alone (since the idea of a [locust's fury] build doesn't stand or fall on this debate): Not only is the KD sloppy, but lotsa times you're going to be KD-ing a foe who is already down--effectively wasting your skill, since you can't reapply KD until the foe has gotten back up.
How often can you expect that to happen? Earlier in the thread I calculated that your chance of KD is about 50% per second. (People had been overstating the odds because they misunderstood the chance both of double-striking and of KD-ing with [great dwarf weapon].) But since you're locking onto a single foe, your chance of KD is really only 50% FOR THE FIRST SECOND; thereafter, the chance drops substantially because your foe may already be down. I'm figuring 25% for the 2nd second, 37.5% for the 3rd second--and thereafter my math skills aren't good enough to complete the calculation.
At any rate, it's not nearly as high as it seems just by reading the skill descriptions and not thinking about the consequences.
08 May 2009 at 00:02 - 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dawg
Not following this either. When you shout [Dodge This!], it affects your next attack. It's not going to affect [Brawling Headbutt], because [Brawling Headbutt] is a touch skill. But as long as you get in another attack before the shout ends (and you have 16-20 seconds, depending on your Norn rank), it'll work. Then rinse and repeat.
My point was that you will trigger the finales (and the bonus dmg buffs as well) more often IF you keep attacking instead of bringing and using 3/4 sec. cast BH.
08 May 2009 at 06:55 - 173
Grimm Ninja, a few suggestions on your Builds:
On your A/W player build, drop [Shadow Sanctuary] for ["Dodge This!"]. While your Hero Builds have condition removal, why Blind yourself for 5 seconds to get additional armor (CritAgi already gives some bonus armor, you won't get the full amount because armor-stacking has a limit) and HP regen? "Dodge This!" makes your next attack unblockable (yay for not needing GFS/Wild Strike, which won't trigger a Dual Attack, even with Locust's) and adds bonus damage. 4A cost, which means it is going to recharge/be ready for use nearly every single attack you make considering your use of "FGJ!" and Dark Fury. Methinks it would ramp up your damage output considerably.
On your N/* Hero, drop [Well of Blood] and [Hexer's Vigor]; the Well will use up corpses that your MM Hero needs (considering Well has a 1sec cast time and both Minion-creation spells have a 3sec cast time) and you have more non-Hex skills on your bar than Hex skills which makes Hexer's Vigor near useless. If you are going to run an Orders Necro, run an Orders Necro, if you are going to run an AP/MoP+Barbs Necro, then run an AP/MoP+Barbs Necro. Trying to pull off a combo Orders/Barbs is going to result in your Necro either not casting Curses because it stays back to sac/Orders, or the Necro running in to cast and pulling aggro, which could end up overtaxing your Monk (with your MM using Resto from its Rit secondary, this might not be a problem - needs to be tested).
In regards to the Monk Healer/Smite-buffer, if the Holy damage from Judge's Insight overrides the Physical damage from your Dagger attacks, Order of Pain and Barbs are going to be useless, as they require Physical damage to trigger their bonuses. Also, why 11 Divine / 10 Heal? The extra point in Divine adds 3.2 to each spell you cast on an ally, but since you only have Healing Prayers to be used during combat (since you'll be maintaining SoH, and Judge's Insight is going to be pre-cast before aggro), wouldn't it be better to go 11 Healing / 10 Divine? I think you'd get more Heal-bang for your Buck.
Just a few things to think about.
08 May 2009 at 10:57 - 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dawg
It's clear at this point that neither side is going to convince the other about [brawling headbutt] vs. [great dwarf weapon]. I'm just going to make one last point against [great dwarf weapon], and then I'm going to leave it alone (since the idea of a [locust's fury] build doesn't stand or fall on this debate): Not only is the KD sloppy, but lotsa times you're going to be KD-ing a foe who is already down--effectively wasting your skill, since you can't reapply KD until the foe has gotten back up.
How often can you expect that to happen? Earlier in the thread I calculated that your chance of KD is about 50% per second. (People had been overstating the odds because they misunderstood the chance both of double-striking and of KD-ing with [great dwarf weapon].) But since you're locking onto a single foe, your chance of KD is really only 50% FOR THE FIRST SECOND; thereafter, the chance drops substantially because your foe may already be down. I'm figuring 25% for the 2nd second, 37.5% for the 3rd second--and thereafter my math skills aren't good enough to complete the calculation.
At any rate, it's not nearly as high as it seems just by reading the skill descriptions and not thinking about the consequences.
I know you said this was your last point and you dont think anyone will convince the other, but i'm going to pick at a few things you said here.
First, when you say ''lotsa times you're going to be KD-ing a foe who is already down--effectively wasting your skill'' Its not really 'wasting' anything because you are not expending any additional effort each time you knock down. Yes, you are likely to strike them with a 'good' hit of [great dwarf weapon] while they are on the floor, since they are down for two seconds each time - but nothing negative is born from that. Its just an unlucky hit you can forget about.
And second, your maths simply doesnt work out, or is irrelevant. While the foe is stood up you have a 50% chance of knocking down every second, that is all that matters. The second they are stood up again that percentage will return to 50% (its actually a little higher than that).
This means that, really, if you want to be pessmistic about it and take the bare minimum - you're knocking down your target every other second while they are in stood up with [great dwarf weapon].
Now lets look at [brawling headbutt]. Since you're an assassin you're not knocking the target down for longer than two seconds because you dont have stonefists. Lets be pessimistic again. It will take three seconds of striking to gain enough adrenaline to use it the first time. Then 1.5 seconds to cast [brawling headbutt] (including after-cast) and start attacking again. Bear in mind that by using [brawling headbutt] you will gain no adrenaline. The target is then KD'd for two seconds, and you can use those seconds to partially recharge [brawling headbutt]. But you will still need one more second of striking while the foe is stood up to fully re-charge it. Then take another second of casting [brawling headbutt] before the foe is down again.
This means that in the worst of situations: [brawling headbutt] gives the foe a total time of two seconds of being stood up before hitting the deck again. And [great dwarf weapon] gives them two seconds of being stood up before hitting the deck again.
The worst-case probabilties are mostly the same. Except that [great dwarf weapon] offers immediate knockdown without having to interupt your stream of damage or adrenaline gain and offers greater chance of producing continuos knock-lock than [brawling headbutt].
10 May 2009 at 09:15 - 175
Yeah, I know I said I'd leave this topic alone at this point, but I have to correct this misconception, since it has been repeated several times on this thread. There's no aftercast delay with [brawling headbutt]. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. The wiki entry on aftercast is extremely vague, and I agree that one would THINK, based on the crappy entry on aftercast in the wiki, that [brawling headbutt] should have an aftercast delay--but it doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Clinton
Then 1.5 seconds to cast [brawling headbutt] (including after-cast) and start attacking again.
12 May 2009 at 14:27 - 176
You would have a 75% chance to have KD'd on your second hit, not 25%, lol. And one thing to remember, is that GDW is going to offer about 25-35 DPS, whereas BH will only add, say, 15-25 DPS; plus, that .75 seconds to cast the thing would be time where you could have been attacking, adding an extra, like, 100 damage with all the buffs. If you're correct in saying that BH doesn't have an aftercast (which I'm still unsure of), then it's not as terrible as I thought ('cause before you were literally gimping yourself of around 100 DPS), but it's still not the DPS machine that it is with GDW. The point of this build in my opinion is not for lots of KD's but for exploitation of damage buffs to easily hit 150+ DPS. BH is more of a damage nerf, for the small benefit of more-easily controlled KD's (though GDW does KD just as often). It's just not worth it in the grand scheme of things.
12 May 2009 at 16:18 - 177
[asuran scan] + [great dwarf weapon] = win
Also, no need to waste a pve slot for [brawling headbutt] when you have someone casting GDW on you....
12 May 2009 at 22:37 - 178
Your math is wrong. If [great dwarf weapon] gives you about a 50% chance to KD with this build--and we've gone over the reasons why it's only 50%, I don't want to rehash that--then there's a 50% chance that you won't be able to KD on your second attack because your foe will already be down. That means you really only have about a 25% chance to KD on your second attack.
And Igor, we're going around in circles: I don't want someone to cast [great dwarf weapon] on me precisely because I want them to cast [splinter weapon (pve)] or [nightmare weapon] instead. THAT'S why I'd rather use [brawling headbutt].
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
You would have a 75% chance to have KD'd on your second hit, not 25%, lol.
13 May 2009 at 03:02 - 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dawg
Your math is wrong. If [great dwarf weapon] gives you about a 50% chance to KD with this build--and we've gone over the reasons why it's only 50%, I don't want to rehash that--then there's a 50% chance that you won't be able to KD on your second attack because your foe will already be down. That means you really only have about a 25% chance to KD on your second attack.
And Igor, we're going around in circles: I don't want someone to cast [great dwarf weapon] on me precisely because I want them to cast [splinter weapon (pve)] or [nightmare weapon] instead. THAT'S why I'd rather use [brawling headbutt].
How the hell does that make sense? Your chances of KD'ing is going to increase each time you hit until they get knocked down. It's never going to go down. So the first second, you have a ~50% chance of KD'ing. Then, if you didn't hit, according to rules of probability, you will have a 75% chance of KD'ing by the second (2nd) second. In other words, you'll have a 75+% chance of KD'ing after 2 seconds.
And [great dwarf weapon] has a HUGE advantage over any other weapon spells solely due to its duration. SW and NW won't last more than, say, 2 seconds, before their effect runs out, which leads to much less efficiency for both the 'Sin and the person casting them. Plus, let's face it: Rits aren't going to be as useful when you could have put in a necro with Barbs and Mark of Pain instead.
It comes down to whether you want retarded amounts of damage or more reliable KD's. To me, it's not much of a choice, but to each his own.
13 May 2009 at 03:47 - 180
OK, your cumulative chance of KD is about 75% AFTER two attacks. That's not the same thing as saying that your chance of KD is 75% ON the second attack, as you stated ("You would have a 75% chance to have KD'd on your second hit, not 25%, lol"). Remember, this is already including the double-strike chance of [locust's fury]. (You don't QUAD-strike.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
Your chances of KD'ing is going to increase each time you hit until they get knocked down. It's never going to go down. So the first second, you have a ~50% chance of KD'ing. Then, if you didn't hit, according to rules of probability, you will have a 75% chance of KD'ing by the second (2nd) second. In other words, you'll have a 75+% chance of KD'ing after 2 seconds.
13 May 2009 at 06:39 - 181
So its really more of what you'd prefer, a big AoE spike or a knock lock. I think I'd prefer [Splinter Weapon (PvE)], in PvE nothing except bosses should live that long enough for a knock lock to matter.
Because of your IAS + Locust's Fury, Splinter will run out really quickly, I'm guessing in about second and a half, doing roughly about 160 damage, then add in [Mark of Pain] and that amount will double. You don't need a human player to give you the weapon spell either, just a N/Rt Hero would do.
13 May 2009 at 20:31 - 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by RadaArashi
You don't need a human player to give you the weapon spell either, just a N/Rt Hero would do
This is why Splinter/Nightmare would be preferred for a person who runs H/H, H/H can't run PvE only skills. As far as having other players with you, it's still a toss-up on personal preference.
14 May 2009 at 23:38 - 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Dawg
That means you really only have about a 25% chance to KD on your second attack.
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