Guild Wars, WoW, and Guild Wars 2

Thank you for making me smile before the weekend, Monty Python is pure genius ^^

'Fanboyism' is a common claim that refers to an illogical and blinding love for something that throws all credibility in argument out the window.

It is a bad thing because we are here to discuss in a credible manner. Fans and fanboys are different things, but more importantly, so are logical posts and raving delirium.

Enough.

For the worse. Lets look at some of the "new and exciting MMOs" that came after wow shall we?

Hellgame london, advertised as a MMO, shut down now

Age of Conan, 90% of wow players who left for that game came back to wow in a heart beat. It simply fails because 9/10 people can't run it on their comps.

Warhammer online. Wow clone, from interface, to gameplay, to everything. It just does it worse.

Korean Linage 2 clone MMOs #1-100 up and including AION whom no one gives a shit about anymore after viewing the gameplay trailer, getting inside info on the betas or whatnot.

See where im going? The only new change on the MMO market is that games keep getting rushed and ending up completely awful and not worth playing. Now you can either hope for an early release of GW2 which will most likely end up like Warhammer, or PRAY for a 2014 release which MIGHT make the game appealing enough for people considing you are gonna have WoW 2 in development by that time.

PS: D3 and SC2 knocked "you guys out of the early alpha yet?"

I hate MMO games. I'll be looking into Gw2. I'v tried the trials for LoTrO, Eq2 and I played Eq1 back when it was new for about a month or two.

Still havnt tried wow as I can never get the trial to accept my phone number, maybe it will work now with my new phone. It will have to wait as I'm back on gw after over a year and have no time for blocky dwarves and ant eater looking minotaurs.

I got some news for you, GW2 is trying to model its gameplay more towards that of a MMO and less of a pseudo-multiplayer game. In case this is too complicated for you, GW2 is trying to be more like WoW than it is now.

(persistent zones, no PVP easily disposable characters, less total skills, only 1 companion instead of henchies, and so on)

It still has PvP characters: "It will allow you to enter the game at maximum level with all skills, races, items and classes automatically unlocked," supposedly. There are some things we may be missing from GW1, but ANet would have to be dumbstruck retarded to get rid of this feature.

In regards to the reference of "less total skills", the interview was more gear towards the fact that GW1 started with a set amount of skills that were all fairly balance. Later on, with more and more campaigns offering more and more skills, did it become too out of hand for ANet to handle. We still have yet to see how the 8-skill bar will still work, but to my knowledge this is still in effect. Otherwise balance would be in the crapper.

The reason we're ditching henchies in GW2 is because the 8-person party required" system didn't work too well, as many of the older 'heroes' threads will mention.

If anything, I feel like we'll be seeing a lot of GW2 based on what we saw in GW:EN. A lot of the "solo" quests took you into your own little instance, providing a much less interfering and more immersive and personal fight.

Everything in your post is common knowledge. Get back to me when you have some new information that isn't widely known.

And how is it you consider GW a Pseudo multiplayer game? It is a multiplayer game, but is classified as a Corpg. Just because you can solo or hero hench doesn't change that fact. I also find it amusing that you are one of those countless people who use World of Warcraft as the standard of MMORPG's when its not. Its a reskinned version of EQ with a few adjustments. Just like many other games including LotrO, StormReach and WH.O.

The day blizzard comes out with a single original idea, I will be amazed, and I am a blizzard fan.

You are right. WAR and AOC were indeed disappointing, and people having high hopes for Aion (it is out already in Korea for quite some time) should prepare for a hard landing, too.

I am especially concerned about your second paragraph. They seem to abandon the early GW premises of skill>time and no gear grind not only somewhat, but completely. Going for a WoWification towards the standard DIKU MUD model used for most contemporary MMOs. Plus RMT model, not really something new either, but commonplace in asian MMORPG-style games.


I am afraid the 8 skill bar model of GW is not that useful for fully fledged persistant world MMOs. And if instancing solo play scenarios is really that great is another question. "Free Realms" does it quite successful for a younger demographic, but I do not like the game and the idea behind it even if it would be made more for the average young/adult gamer.

Given the huge percentage of farmer population we have in GW, I could imagine Diablo 3 to suck up this crowd.

While GW2 will have to establish itself as an MMORPG alternative to the traditional MMO games out there, foremost WoW.



I am quite afraid that this will not work, and even if it works, that not much what made me interested in Guild Wars 1 will remain.

I said once and il say it again. Just because 2 10 year old titles coming back WILL NOT effect the success of other games in DIFFERENT genras. D3 once again is not same genra as GW2. Even if they were released at same time would effect each other. Just give me an example when something like that has happened. And SC2 comon its an RTS. Same posters over and over in numerous threads singing same "Blizzard your geezer titoes will rule the gaming market forEVER" song. On top of that who said you cannot purchase more then 1 game.. Im pretty sure all ya Blizzarders will own BOTH D3 and SC2. (And i know for a fact that at least 2 of you said that spliting time betwen 2 games is ridiculous but yet i saw
Ultiple times in different threads stating youl purchase both titles) I know il get em both to complete my colletions.

But yeah for better or worse GW2 wont go out unnoticed and if all the promises made come true we will be looking at another great Title in the inventory of any decent gamer.

Here's my problem with WoW - it's too hard to start a new character. You have to grind through the same missions and get to level 60+ before the game even becomes exciting (or so I'm told, I've never made it that far).

GW is genius because it is so fast to level up... and with an account with shared skills, etc, there is synergy among all your characters.

As long as GW 2 keeps that basic idea alive, that we don't have to grind to get to the "good stuff", that things we do on one character can benefit another, then that's all I want.

EDIT: I should mention, I wrote this after staring at the character creation screen after deciding to try a 10-day free trial of WoW again last night, thinking I would start a Horde character...

and then thought of starting at level 1 again, and quickly logged off.

I think the journey to max level should be fun in any game though, and in almost every MMO I've ever played, it has been (Warhammer is the exception). There's something very RPGish about developing your character slowly as you explore the world and gain new abilities. It just needs to be interesting, instead of placeholder content.

Oddly I had the opposite experience from you in WoW; leveling was enjoyable (especially 70-80), but raiding was complete shit. I first quit the game after doing Molten Core (the first L60 raid) 3 times and thinking "god, this is terrible, why would anyone to do this every week?", and didn't come back until the expansion pack a couple years later, and only because they introduced the equivalent of rated team arena. (WTB: rated Team Arena in GW2)

The only times I've ever found the leveling component really enjoyable were my first times ever playing WoW and just seeing through the areas. It was pretty painful trying to do the same for Horde, but I really wanted to see the other side of things (which is no longer my "other side" but hay!).

Aside from that, it's intensely archaic, and I've found the only ways I can enjoy it are when A. I'm on vent with guildies talking stupid or B. I'm totally, entirely trashed and take shots whenever this one friend complains about other classes.

There's some variation down the road but the leveling doesn't get "awesome" until you get to 58, and it doesn't get *truly* awesome until 68 (leveling in Wrath has thus far been my favorite thing in the expansion). At least they updated the pre 60 dungeons a bit, but I've rarely seen anyone doing anything other than SM after my two latest alts (granted, experiences may vary...but we know how faulty that can come when servers are brought up).

I can't really blame Mordakai's experience or call it "false" - hell I even gave him a 50 (was it?) gold boost and he still couldn't get through it. If you're playing a game and not having fun with it *right* then, even if it gets orgasmic at the cap, I don't see myself ever being able to go through with it.

When was the last time you played WoW, Mordakai? It sounds like most of what you did was pre-TBC. Patch 2.3 reduced the time to level to 60 by over 25%, and in the upcoming patch, you get mounts at lv. 20.

And Diablo III is a valid competitor to GW2. They're, in essence, both glorified dungeon crawlers.

(EDIT) Was an entire page deleted? I missed something.

Would you consider D3 be a competition to WoW then upon its release?

(I think things were getting too personal.) I think all games have their god and bad points. I tried Wow for a few weeks for free and while it wasn't bad it just didn't suit me, plus the $15.00 a month. I have been playing Perfect World lately and while it isn't perfect I have been having fun at it. Sometimes just the change is good for a bit.

Id join you in the perfect world..world But for some reason i am unable to download the last part of it..always corrup files it sais upon instalation.. can ya post a link from were ya downloaded it.. Thanks upfront

No.

12charas

This this this this this!!

I tried playing WoW. I knew from watching my friend play it and talk about it 24/7 that I would hate the darn game, but she forcefed me a trial key and made me an account. I tried to come in with an open mind. I tried to have fun. I seriously did. I was playing the elusive WoW!!! that everyone and their mother plays. But as soon as I got the first quest and it was something like, kill 12 boars, I knew I was in for a bad game.

And it didn't stop. I had to keep killing or collecting the most boring, asinine shit over and over again. My brain was puddling out from my ears. I only had a ten-day trial, but after about 2 hours of getting nowhere (no storyline, no plot, etc.), I never came back to it again. Well, I did in like, 10 minute increments, but after day two, I was just like, eff it *quits*.

I keep thinking, well, maybe I should give it a second chance. But, like Mordakai, whenever I think about starting from level one again, I quickly change my mind.

My friend is like Bryant: she only has fun when she's on Vent with her guildies or whatever. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't have to go the extra mile to have fun in a game. The game should be fun in and out of itself. That's why I came back to GW. I to this day still don't have a guild, and the only social interactions I get are from random dance parties and PuGing (I'm not antisocial, just really shy!), but the storyline, quests, etc., keep me enthralled enough to keep playing. I couldn't take enough of WoW to get to level 60 or wherever the fun begins. And I find that extremely sad. GW was fun from day one.

That's what makes me hesitant towards GW2. Looking at some of the things that they've planned (and have put out in the past, such as the increasing allegiance grinding/the April update) make me wary that they're going to turn into a listless, unfun, grindfest WoW clone. I came to GW because it wasn't like the traditional MMO, and to see it being razed and reworked from the ground up to become more like it instead just makes me think, "Ohhhh God..."

Not quite sure how to wrap up my paragraph here. I am interested to see how GW2 goes, but if it just ends up becoming the very thing they were trying not to be, I'm sorry, but I will not be investing my time and money into it. It makes me sad, but as Mordakai said again, I want my games to be fun, not be a chore or time waster. If I'm not enjoying myself, why play it?

^ ding ding ding ding

Very well put if i must say.....Agree with the :LvLing thing..alwasy annoys me.

Just because it goes by faster doesn't mean it's fun or not crumby. That was just always the most painful part for me: if I wanted to experience the awesome endgame content from a different lens, I had to go through all *this* bullshit again. Sure it might be quicker, sure I can now go zoom-zoom after the second leveling zone, but I still have to find something *else* to entertain me to enjoy it.

Mounts at level 20? Huh.

I bought the WoW/BC bundle for like $35.

I started / stopped playing between December 2007 - February 2008. My goal was to actually get someone to level 55 before WotWK came out. I actually thought WotWK sounded cool (although I still hate the name).

I just found out my sister-in-law plays, so who knows, maybe I'll get sucked back in.... but I know once GW2 comes out, that will be it.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

Actually, I was thinking GW is more like Balder's Gate, since you have a whole party (with Heroes) rather than just yourself. GW2 will probably be more like Diablo, but with more races, professions, instances and persistent areas, casual and hardcore PvP...

OK, so maybe not like Diablo at all. And how is WoW not a "glorified dungeon crawl"? Isn't that exactly what a Raid is? (serious question, I've never done a raid, but it sounds like you go through progessively harder and harder areas, until you get to a ultra-tough boss. And if you wipe, you have to start all over again, right?)

GW2 is going to be a real MMO this time (with all the pluses and minuses that entails), so it won't be competing with D3 in that way, any more than WoW will. D3 isn't going to give people their "mmo fix", so they will still play it plus whatever MMO they are playing. Some people aren't happy about GW2 picking up all the MMO features though.

GW2's main competitor in its probable release timeframe will be a new WoW expansion pack, which will likely be released at the end of 2010 if its past two expansions are anything to go by.

Now what would be the difference between an MMO and a "real MMO"? Is one allowed to have certain features and the other is not?

As for the main competition in 2010, it'll be Star Wars MMO and its story focus. It's the first time another MMO is openly challenging the GW story mode. But even then, people can buy both, there is no law saying you can only have fun in either game. Dragon Age is another time intensive game that will be around, although it might be early enough to pass the time until GW2 more than hurt its sales.

D3 looks still very much like a "Loot-Grinder", which is ok, but it remains to be seen if a substantial amount of people can be captured longer than playing through the campaign twice.

The real question is whether some MMOs can maintain their firm grip on people and continue to make them belief it was ok to only play the one game you subscribed to. Recent releases have shown that beyond three months, most MMOs are struggling to keep their players attached. Which is ok, make people pay $80-$90 in total for their three month experience; instead of $45 like regular PC RPGs which last about the same. Everybody seems to consider WoW to be normal, while it is more of an anomaly. Blinded by greed is what happens next. Only those studios that planned on surviving on "low" subscription numbers survived. Those who placed their bets on two million concurrent subscribers failed miserably. You have to be ready to survive on 50-100k after six months. People play new games, they don't play one game for their entire life.

Thank you.. i Actually was about to write exactly thew same thing but my shift ended and when i got hope i started 3D modeling and didnt have time to reply..

But yes The reason i said before 'Will D3 be competition to WoW" and the answer i got was no.....which i kinda got surprised as because GW will be WoW like (For better or worse we will see).....But Precisely that is why i alwasy said that D2 is nothing like GW and Vise Versa... i see where people might think that it is instances and Hubs for making a group.. but GW has completely different experience and mechaniks.. so i woulodnt cosider it related to Diablo series at all.

Its like saying.. Hey Both apples and pears have seeds and they are green right..they must be the same.. Or even better... Sharks and Dogs have a heard a stomach and an eye ball...they must be the same right. -_- well you catch the idea i hope

Yeah I think I'm gonna buy it to afterall guildwars's graphics are a lot better then wow's but it is just lacking content after 3 years so I'm playing wow till gw2

i'm looking towards for gw2 about 2years now, starting to get bored i want some information about it :S

Games are not like mice...they arent born in matter of couple of years.....You can always enjoy some old titles.. or get your hands on somehtign new...MMOs are not only game sout there =)..dont see why you be bored...id understand if only game out there was GW...but otherwise no not at all...

If they design GW2 to be a fully fledged MMO (which they wont and you are miss informed btw) they already lost the battle to wow before this said battle even started.

The rule of thumb right now on the MMO market is that you can't beat wow at its own game, that being, an MMO. If you want a game that can beat wow you either have to release a MMO which is very very very innovative and non fail at the same time...or release a new genre completely.

The reason GW survived for so long is that it was different from wow. How do you think GW would have fared if it was just a World of Tyria game instead? It wouldn't have even seen 1M sales total.

Even though ANet may've screwed over the minor portion of their playerbase, they still know what they're doing.

It's less that they're "going WoW" and sounds more like they're "going Blizzard" - meaning yes, it will be an MMO, but added with their own seasoning, adding in features that are widely favored and enjoyed (some of which we've seen in GW1).

They already have a one-up in regards to PvP: Instant maxed level PvP chars with (what is yet to be decided, correct?) UAX at the start. Gear and progression isn't going to matter with GW2's PvP, only skill and knowledge, as it *should* be.

Then we come into the other features: The companion system, what sounds like party-scaling (they stated you could do everything solo but will accommodate if you want to bring friends), the leveling system, the combat and skill system...tons of thus far interesting concepts.

So yes, it's going to be an MMO. But only at the base. Strain himself noted in his article how trying to buttheads with WoW will just leave you with a concussion, hence why GW2 is an MMO on the surface but branches off from there.

Honestly, can't say I'm not excited as hell.

WoW must be carebear heaven they get what they want and when they want it.

Yeah that's, pretty much true sadly : (

And that's bad, how?

Please explain how requesting something reasonably and never EVER getting them is good? How does Blizzard's listening to their PAYING customers (carebear, as you put it) is a bad thing?

This is hilarious to me. Blizzard listen to their customers, and their subscribers get branded as carebears.

ANet don't, and somehow they're the better company?

Take a look at Blizzard. Take a look at ANet. I'm pretty sure Blizzard aren't catering to carebears.

My point, as already explained through this thread, is that WoW is now dead-shit easy all across the board.

I was hoping that things wouldn't needlessly changed with normal/heroic modes and 10/25 man variants. But nope!

But with the new 3.2 raid, you get normal 10-man, normal 25-man, heroic 10-man, heroic 25 man! Best of all worlds!

Except heroic versions are as difficult as GW HM.

i.e. not at all.

Yeah you can sense the pessimism, oy? Here's hoping happy things come my way.

If GW2 releases when I think it will, Spring 2011, then they are going to be releasing against some stiff competition.

Diablo 3, Final Fantasy XIV, and Knight of the old Republic.

If they release Q1 or Q2 2010 then they may beat the other games to the shelf, but hard to predict what publishers are doing.

Pfft, Diablo 3> Guildwars 2. If they release within the same time frame, then GW2 is gonna have bad sales. But I think D3 is coming out in 2010 so if GW2 waits til 2011 then it should take a slightly less staggering blow from the D3 addiction that will ensue.

-And with all the current players that complain daily about how much they hate what they've read about GW2 and how they won't buy it... Well, lets just wait and see.

Honestly, I don't think there's any game that *won't* have bad sales when a Blizzard game hits the shelves.

I completely agree! Blizzard is fast becoming a 12 headed hydra that you just can't slay! For every head you remove, two grow back! In place of heads, we have games. Dungeon hack, Rts and MMO. Not to forget lost vikings or "Ghost" which puts them into other genres aswell! They also have minatures and a table top game.

Soon to follow will be the Warcraft Versus diablo fighting game, The (if its ever finished and released) SC Ghost 3rd person shooter with a possible FPS view, The Diablo MMO, the Warcraft Dungeon Hack... The list of possibles could go on and on and I would buy most, if not ALL of them!

Cough* Cough* Diablo rts ftw! cough*