My questions are - can you keep 2-3 secs kills without microing discord?
It's possible, but not consistent.
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Do you have enough energy, casting all or most of those skills?
Yes, use a high enegy set if you find your energy manegemnt is failing.
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If you don't cast all those skills isn't your killing power diminishing?
Depends on the scenario.
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If you cast energy management, aren't those kills getting slowed down?
Use it when you use a shout or when switching targets. The time difference is minimal and really doesn't make as much difference as people seem to think it does.
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All this discussion is based on the fact that AP callers are more efficient cause they, a) fulfil both discord requirements; b) kill in 2-3 seconds and, c) have 4 slots left for support.
I would say the team kills in 2-3 seconds but whatever rocks your boat.
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My point is that an Assassin AP caller and the other physicals AP caller, won't be able to keep that pace unless they micro, and even then energy might become a problem. Forget about the support skills without messing up with either the 2-3 secs kill and/or the energy.
My point is that because that efficiency will disappear after the first or second target (and might not be as fast as if there are multiple healers in the enemy mob or other counters) a physical assassin (and all the others physicals) won't lose ground to the AP caller.
I disagree. I don't normally have problems facing multiple healers, the only time I really find them a pain is the Doylaks in groups of 4 in the southern Shiverpeaks, but I used a more specific build to take them down. Healer bosses can be a pain if you don't co-ordinate right but they're still very much doable.
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Also many things won't happen if you don't get a kill. Forget about kd locks if you don't kill a target to recharge your kills. Forget about doing those 250 damage if you don't drop your target to <50% health first.
You're right, but I find this a rare occurence personally and find the ability to quickly spike most targets down in a mob worth the trade off, more so now I've learned to adapt the way I play to combat the counters against me.
11 Jul 2009 at 13:20 - 176
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Do you realise that you are talking about an A/Rt or a Rt/A and with ANY other prof except N/A ( soul reaping ofc ) Spirit Siphon doesnt count ? and no , dont tell me that there are others e-management.
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I realise this is in regards strictly to Rt/A or A/Rt (that was why I mentioned it in regards to using Splinter Weapon on the same bar as support).
There is different energy management options available on some other proffessions though. If you're an Assassin you have the freedom of switching it up a little in this respect.
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If you lower your chain a bloody lots of things can happen but AP gives back 17 energy ( only 21 on a primary assassin ) and Chains like that ( AP , 2 shouts , EVA = 35 ) cant be mantained EVEN on while killing the same mob and achieve straight 3-5 sec kills, anything against that fact is BS.
If you are constantly using the full chain without any form of energy manegement at all, then I agree with you if you are not a Necromancer primary. However as highlighted before by another user, you won't need the full chain all the time as you come to the last few targets because they're normally depleted enough to use AP+(in some cases maybe YMLaD aswell) Finish Him.
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Dont take all my sentences like were pointing at you just because i quoted you about something , its a huge mistake  . Also , im doing Orr HM for a friend tomorrow as a R/A AP caller , any suggestions for those 4 opt slots ?.
Ok, noted.
As for SoO have fun there, isn't it full of undead mainly? (ie: no minions to fuel necromancer energy management, healing from Dwaynas Sorrow, and bodyblock?). I'm interested as to what setup you intend to use there, or are you using someting ourside of Discordway?
Can't say I've ever used a Ranger AP caller so I can't help you there to be quite honest. You'ld probably be better off with Asuran Scan+Crippling Shot (or some other skill that causes a condition to undead) for calling if you're really going to go with it and free up your secondary for stuff that can be more beneficial, more so because I don't think expertise affects spells and shouts.
11 Jul 2009 at 13:28 - 177
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If you are killing in 2-3 secs, using even a 1/4 second skill/spell adds a full sec to the chain due to the .75 sec after cast.
For example casting AP .75s cast time, then .75s after cast, then 1s cast for assassin. The assassin is out there only 2.5s after.
If the kill happens in 2-3s it seems pretty pointless to cast the assassin.
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How is the cast speed of EVAS, or targets time of death, relevant to when you cast your energy management skills?
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Originally posted by Improvavel
If you cast energy management, aren't those kills getting slowed down?
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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc
Use it when you use a shout or when switching targets. The time difference is minimal and really doesn't make as much difference as people seem to think it does.
11 Jul 2009 at 23:56 - 178
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So not only does the A/RT has 16 deadly arts, it also has 16 channelling magic?!?!?!?
I though max channelling an assassin could use was 12. You mean 123 if you hit 1 guy with 3 targets adjacent, right?
I will have to say that if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent, at daggers 14 it will deal 86 armor ignoring damage (from the skill only) times 4, for a 344 total armor ignoring damage.
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You seem to completely misunderstand how Splinter Weapon works. Splinter at 12 channeling does 41 AoE damage 4 time to 3 targets. Using your set up example, with 4 targets around (which is obviously biased towards DB anyway), SW will do 3*4*41 damage, for a total of 492 damage. Obviously, superior to death blossom.
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So traversc suggested that he can wand the enemies with splinter weapon and so do 160 damage in 1.75 secs. I'm sorry but I don't know exactly how to read those numbers except in the way I did.
No I did not state anything about wanding. Please stop putting words in my mouth. (This isn't the first time you have done it.)
I simply stated that you can ADD 160 damage in 1.75 seconds. Put it on one of your hench, of course, not yourself. It does not matter if the damage is delayed. Splinter lasts 20 seconds, so the damage will be done eventually. Splinter is also endlessly stackable - throw it on a different hench.
Considering you do not understand game mechanics (Splinter has been a PvE staple since factions), I ask you to defer judgment on the strength of an AP caller. It is clear that you do not understand enough about PvE.
By arguing blindly, you misunderstand how to use an AP caller, thinking it is just to fast apply fast hex/condition, requiring manual discord to do damage. It is the otherway around - AP caller is the highest damage on a discord team. You also misunderstood my argument about Splinter Weapon, because you did not understand how the skill works.
Please, LISTEN to what Unreal and I are saying, rather than just trying to come up with an argument to throw back.
12 Jul 2009 at 07:06 - 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
You seem to completely misunderstand how Splinter Weapon works. Splinter at 12 channeling does 41 AoE damage 4 time to 3 targets. Using your set up example, with 4 targets around (which is obviously biased towards DB anyway), SW will do 3*4*41 damage, for a total of 492 damage. Obviously, superior to death blossom.
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No, you seem to be the one misunderstanding.
Splinter needs 3 adjacent enemies to your target to deal full damage, so you need 4 enemies. Death blossom will hit the same 4 targets.
No, Splinters at 12 doesn't do 41 AoE damage 4 times to 3 targets. It deals 41 damage up to 3 targets up to 4 times.
Big difference and no 160 AoE damage in a single packet.
More retard comments about my understanding of the game, when you don't even know you need 4 targets minimum to trigger the 3 AoE hits of splinter, and that Death Blossom will hit both 4 of those targets? And that it will hit 5 or 6 or as many as fit around? And of course death blossom will always deal damage, splinter might or might not.
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No I did not state anything about wanding. Please stop putting words in my mouth. (This isn't the first time you have done it.)
I simply stated that you can ADD 160 damage in 1.75 seconds. Put it on one of your hench, of course, not yourself. It does not matter if the damage is delayed. Splinter lasts 20 seconds, so the damage will be done eventually. Splinter is also endlessly stackable - throw it on a different hench.
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So you cast it on a hench. Unless it is a paragon or a sword/axe guy, again the time to deal the damage will be over 1.75 seconds and not 160 damage as you insist.
"Endlessly stackable"... So now you just stopped casting all your other skills to spam splinter or are you adding another skill to your chain?
Lets see AP+YMLAS+EVAS+FH+SW = 5+10+10+10+5= 40e .75s+.75s+1+.75s+1s= 4.25s between casting time and aftercast.
Lets see an assassin AP caller- 4 pips, 16 deadly arts. 40e every 4.25 secs. 21 gained from AP + a bit over 5 from natural regen, lets call it 6. 27 energy gained vs 40 lost. That is 13 lost every 4.25 secs.
That is ignoring any other hexes you might or might have not to cast.
But now lets look at A DERVISH AP CALLER.
First, of course, the D AP CALLER can't slot ritualist skills nor have 16 deadly arts.
The D AP caller will use 35e and get back 17 with a successful trigger of AP.
It depends on fast he gets a kill of course, but if he is doing his chain in 2s (which means get a dast casting somewhere, but whatever, who cares about the little details, 40 more damage on a trigger of splinter here, 1s less casting time there) he will be losing 18 energy every 2s. Being nice we will admit that he gets the 4e from regen. Again 14 energy lost every 3s.
Of course I'll be countered with arguments like "You don't need to do a full chain all the times", "You can use emag", "You can cast support stuff too", etc. Of course, when I say that all these little things add time for a physical do damage or for the discord heroes cast hexes and conditions, I'll be countered that the assassin or dervish has to walk from to target to target, even though when they talk about splinters weapon they admit a nice clump of 4 targets sitting there, but that will never happen when you are playing a melee, adn etc etc.
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Considering you do not understand game mechanics (Splinter has been a PvE staple since factions), I ask you to defer judgment on the strength of an AP caller. It is clear that you do not understand enough about PvE.
By arguing blindly, you misunderstand how to use an AP caller, thinking it is just to fast apply fast hex/condition, requiring manual discord to do damage. It is the otherway around - AP caller is the highest damage on a discord team.
Sigh... High damage is pretty but if done in a great time interval, it is the same as loads of small damage done in the same interval.
Thing is, an AP caller (and especially physical ones) is reliant on AP.
Without AP, most of it is damage will be diminish, as its main damage skills will be on 10s or more recharge. 250 damage in 2-3s is impressive as in 500 damage in 5, but if you need to wait 15 seconds to apply that amount of damage again, then it is not that great.
Additionally, a big part, if not all of it, of the energy management of the AP caller (especially physicals) comes from AP, which means fast kills or wait or devote more slots to energy management, and then the question is to cast exactly what?
If the AP caller relies on AP than it relies on kills and fast kills at that.
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You also misunderstood my argument about Splinter Weapon, because you did not understand how the skill works.
As much as you liked that to be true, it is you that don't understand how splinter or death blossom works.
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Please, LISTEN to what Unreal and I are saying, rather than just trying to come up with an argument to throw back.
Translation - "please shut up instead of showing the incoherences of our arguments".
12 Jul 2009 at 08:09 - 180
Is there any chance of this thread getting back on topic? Remembering of course the title "Does discordway need an AP caller?" the last approx 3 pages of,I know how splinter works,no you don't,yes I do,Shut up!,you're a retard is getting really really old
12 Jul 2009 at 09:22 - 181
Well actually this went off topic earlier than that.
Some people are assuming because I say you can run discord effectively with a physical char, I'm automatically saying that the AP+EVAS+FH+YMLAD caster is bad.
AP caster is good and will work even without discord. Due to the fact it has hex(es) and condition(s) it works well with discord.
But discord necro heroes, or even just necro heroes, go alot beyond the AP caller.
Discordway doesn't need a caller because you only need the 3 necros or even 2 necros to make it work.
The necro heroes are the best heroes for PvE due to soul reaping and the way AI acts, but necromancer elites aren't that great!
That is why slotting discord+soul reaping and some other function like healing or cursing, works.
You cannot say that if you don't use an AP caller discord won't trigger and then say you don't need to micro because the caller is the main source of damage anyway, so it doesn't need the discords to get the kills at the 2-3s speeds claimed.
Enfeebling blood + shadow of fear is around 4 seconds total casting time, loads for the first target, but they are AoE, so the 2nd, 3rd, 4rd target will skip that time.
If you can cast either the hex or condition that reduces the time needed to setup.
I posted this to allow those players that want to play physical professions and still want one, if not the best hero setups for H/H.
But all I hear is people saying that MS/DB sins sucks and AP caller are better than any physical profession.
I know AP caller is strong but I also know physical professions are.
12 Jul 2009 at 09:23 - 182
Improvavel
Two second kills might not happen sometimes, but in vast majority of cases they do, even on mobs with several healers.
Microin Discord all the time like you are saying isn't essential, if the party is healthy they will only use Discord, however it's very useful to have Discord keybound and micro it when your Heroes do other things otherwise they would ignore you and just carry on doing them.
Thing is, thats the sdame for every Discord, would it be with AP Caller or without.
Same goes to vast hex/condition removal.
Only real counter to AP Caller are interrupts, but odds of that happening are much slimmer than those of being blocked, stripped of enchantments, hexed with anti-melee, blinded, snared when using melee to call. In fact I vanquished areas like Desolation and Tarnished Coast which have very nasty interrupters and my AP never got hit let alone other areas.
MS/DB can make a better use of splinter but as you have said yourself, you have to cramp at least 3/4 mobs together for great effect which won't happen very often by itself, and wasting your time on trying to do this is simply not worth the effort not to mention that mojority of caster mobs have a tendensy to scatter in all directions when approached by melee, fact of you using Mark of Pain too will make atters even worse. mobs consisting exclusively (or near) of ranged physicals ar rather rare.
Realisticly, you only going to hit ~2 mobs with your aoe, rarely 3, almost never 4 and not for long.
12 Jul 2009 at 10:38 - 184
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Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake
Improvavel
Thing is, thats the sdame for every Discord, would it be with AP Caller or without.
Same goes to vast hex/condition removal.
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AP removed is vastly different from having some other hex.
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Only real counter to AP Caller are interrupts, but odds of that happening are much slimmer than those of being blocked, stripped of enchantments, hexed with anti-melee, blinded, snared when using melee to call. In fact I vanquished areas like Desolation and Tarnished Coast which have very nasty interrupters and my AP never got hit let alone other areas.
Basically you just say don't use melee. I say slot in Foul Feast, slot convert hexes (2 copies if needed).
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MS/DB can make a better use of splinter but as you have said yourself, you have to cramp at least 3/4 mobs together for great effect which won't happen very often by itself, and wasting your time on trying to do this is simply not worth the effort not to mention that mojority of caster mobs have a tendensy to scatter in all directions when approached by melee, fact of you using Mark of Pain too will make atters even worse. mobs consisting exclusively (or near) of ranged physicals ar rather rare.
Realisticly, you only going to hit ~2 mobs with your aoe, rarely 3, almost never 4 and not for long.
Minions and the fact the enemie also tends to attack the same enemy, or the enemy it sees first, will help.
12 Jul 2009 at 12:09 - 185
Improvavel
Hardly. In low hex removal areas saving your AP is easy, just cast your cover hex first and make foes waste their hex removal on it in case of hex removals like Convert Hexes or Divert Hexes. In case of single hex removals simply cover AP with the backup hex. This will hardly make your kills longer.
Mas hex removal however will ruin your Discording day regardless. For example if Asuran Scan is removed you will lose some 75% of your dps and even more if melee buffing hexes get removed also and there will be no Discording as well.
Yes, I am saying dont use melee with Discord. Melee caller has too many common counters to effectively call for spikes. It also takes longer.
In areas where you can exploit Melee AoE ability Discord will be like a bad joke too.
Minions, they make foes get stuck, but dont really make them clamp together in a ball.
Tenebrae
The question has been answered, you dont have to run AP Caller, but running one makes things so much better.
Also stop trolling already if you want anyone to take your posts seriously. Nobody posts fake times and only thing with dreamland conditions is your math which is so unrealistic its not even funny.
12 Jul 2009 at 13:01 - 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake
Improvavel
Hardly. In low hex removal areas saving your AP is easy, just cast your cover hex first and make foes waste their hex removal on it in case of hex removals like Convert Hexes or Divert Hexes. In case of single hex removals simply cover AP with the backup hex. This will hardly make your kills longer.
Mas hex removal however will ruin your Discording day regardless. For example if Asuran Scan is removed you will lose some 75% of your dps and even more if melee buffing hexes get removed also and there will be no Discording as well.
Must be a real big Hex removal to cope with shadow of fear.
When I play melee with discord, while I may run hexes (basically Asuran Scan or some Snare like grasping earth) or conditions, I'm not relying on them. I've a dedicated curses necro.
Additionally, the loss of asuran scan while annoying, can't be compared to the loss of AP. Loss of AP just cripples you.
Again, I've presented 3 necro discord builds to run with any physical character.
People just reply to me with some hypotheses to counter my arguments - I say look at the energy, ppl answer me you can use emag, but which ones and with what professions? and so on.
Again and again, people keep talking about the assassin as caller vs assassin as melee. Noone talks of warrior as caller vs warrior as melee.
The main argument to not use discord with physicals presented on this thread is because it is easier being a caller.
Sometimes arguments are made about killing times, both those arguments require ideal situations and sometimes situations that are impossible!
I'm not saying playing melee is easier or is more enjoyable to everyone.
I'm saying you can play melee with discord, it is good, works good, works better or as good as other h/h builds.
I'm not saying play this instead of that.
I'm saying "You want to play dagger with Assassin, Hammer with warrior, Scythe with Dervish - play it and consider discord as a build to accomplish things with H/H".
I've seen people in game, that didn't like running AP caller running it because they wanted to use discord.
I'm saying "hey dude, you want to play physical, play it and you can use the discords if you want, it works great!".
If you are saying but I like playing AP sin caller and don't like melee assassin - then don't.
If you are telling me I don't like playing warrior as melee, want to play it as a caster, then I'll tell you "it wont be as efficient as melee far from it".
12 Jul 2009 at 13:44 - 187
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Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
I think you're really overthinking it. You're looking at it as if any target meeting Discord's reqs will instantly poof as soon as the heroes noticed it.
You need to understand the way heroes work when it comes to targeting. There's two ways that they target:
1: You press the spacebar to do a "light" call (I'll just call it that). It doesn't matter what you're doing, as soon as you hit the spacebar, they'll be on that target. If you press space on any other target, they'll jump on that one too
2: Doing an actual call with CTRL + space. Once you do that, they're locked onto the target. Pressing the spacebar alone won't be enough to make them switch anymore. They'll stay on it till it's dead or till you call another target.
With that being said, to make them ignore the MoP'd target, all you gotta do is call any target before you cast so that when you do cast it, they won't touch it. There's no micro'ing involved at all (unless you actually consider that micro'ing). It's such a small amount of work for an insane skill. It's been a staple on my Discord teams since day one.
Beisdes all that, depending on your setup, your heroes might also be casting alot more than Discord. Mines often spend time healing or doing minion-related stuff, so even if they did identify a target they can whoop on, they won't always do it on the spot. And of course, a target barely needs anything hp all to a useful MoP target when minions are the only thing triggering it. That's another reason why I micro - if they're busy doin somethin else when I want a specific target dead, you're gonna have to force it.
Truth is, Discordway is one of the few setups that works tons better when the user is micro'ing. You can kill specific threats, and drop targets before any healers have a chance to do anything about it. If I wanted to be lazy, I probably wouldn't be running Discord in the first place. Being active about it benefits the entire setup in so many ways.
Honestly, the thought of an anti-synergy between MoP and Discord has never come to mind. I always thought the opposite - one for single targets, the other for aoe. Basic but really damn effective.
This post from another thread is so well explained, that I cant resist to post it in here.
While this was about the synergy of MoP in an AP/MOP nuker using discordway, also explains why with a melee you can go work on a target, while your heroes/henchies work on their target, allowing, for example multiple death blossoms out of a single target.
12 Jul 2009 at 17:52 - 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Big difference and no 160 AoE damage in a single packet.
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I never stated single packet 160 damage. 4 * 41 = 160.
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...when you don't even know you need 4 targets minimum to trigger the 3 AoE hits of splinter
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Except your example stated 4 adjacent targets. Let me quote you: "...if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent..."
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"Endlessly stackable"... So now you just stopped casting all your other skills to spam splinter or are you adding another skill to your chain?
No dude... listen. You cast it if you have time. You don't NEED to cast it.
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But now lets look at A DERVISH AP CALLER.
Let's keep this discussion on Sin. I'm not about to argue AP caller for warrior or dervish.
But again, and please answer this time, if you play melee, why would you use triple discord heroes, when substituting one discorder for OotV is strictly superior damage and party healing?
12 Jul 2009 at 20:53 - 189
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Originally Posted by traversc
I never stated single packet 160 damage. 4 * 41 = 160.
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You said 160 damage in 1.75s. Again 4*41 why? Because you will only hit 1 guy with another dude adjacent to him 4 times? And in 1.75s you will generate that much damage?
The damage stated doesn't make much sense considering Splinter mechanics, nor does the 1.75s makes much sense either.
Sorry, but the only context it made any sense, imo, was the one I stated. Saying it adds 1.75s to your chain, is saying you are increasing the energy of your chain or swapping something for it, again making those lighting fast 2-3s kills, more and more of a mirage.
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Except your example stated 4 adjacent targets. Let me quote you: "...if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent..."
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If a death blossom hits 1 target that has 3 adjacent guys it will deal more damage than the splinter that hits 1 target with 3 adjacent guys.
Anyone that knows how MS and Splinter work will understand what I meant, even if the choice of words isn't 100% appropriate. Especially because the numbers presented for the damage were of a Death blossom hitting 1 guy + 3 adjacent and the splinter damage presented was of hitting 1 guy + 3 adjacent. Hence the 86*4= 344 damage for DB and the 41*3=123 for splinter.
For example, if you said "Splinter weapon will add up to 123 damage in 1.75s" or something closer I wouldn't have misunderstood. 160 damage is more impressive than 123 though.
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No dude... listen. You cast it if you have time. You don't NEED to cast it.
You cast if you can actually be an assassin and rit, which means only 2 primaries playing as AP caller can, and only one of them is physical. And if you can afford the energy and time.
This thread was about discordway with physicals, but somehow turned into AP caller sin being superior to melee physical, or at least easier to play.
As with everything else, people gave the best possible scenario to the AP callers. Sometimes even unrealistic.
An assassin wont use death blossom if it has time - it will use death blossom always, unless target dies so fast he can't.
But look at cathode post to understand how you can achieve more death blossoms, while having your heroes attack someone else.
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Let's keep this discussion on Sin. I'm not about to argue AP caller for warrior or dervish.
Why not?
This thread isn't called AP caller sin vs melee sin.
So basically what you are telling me, is that you aren't actually bashing the concept of playing discord with physicals, but the concept of playing a melee assassin.
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But again, and please answer this time, if you play melee, why would you use triple discord heroes, when substituting one discorder for OotV is strictly superior damage and party healing?
Again, look at my op. I clearly state that either the MM or the N/Rt can be replaced by something else.
2nd) OotV just for the assassin and a few henchies (henchies have either bad builds or bad AI or both) is a waste. I would only use it with 3 humans or more, or 1 physical human with at least 2 or 3 paragon heroes. The only physical henchies worth taking would be the BHA and the Barrage rangers and the Paragon.
In the case Minions won't work in the place at question or if the monk henchman are good (like in eotn), I would certainly replace one of them. My top choices would be RoJ smitting monk with SoH or a Rit with SoH and splinter weapon.
You just assume discord heroes are only useful if you can have 3 of them and then use them with a caller to spike.
I assume a curses hero or a MM are a damn fine heros to bring regardless of its elite, but might as well be discord for a different type of backup damage not countered by anti-physical counters. The N/Rt is not an autopick, but certainly can hold its ground, especially with minions to fuel its energy.
12 Jul 2009 at 23:32 - 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
You said 160 damage in 1.75s. Again 4*41 why... And in 1.75s you will generate that much damage?
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Yes you will. In 1.75 seconds of YOUR time, you will generate 160 AoE damage by throwing it on a hench.
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You cast if you can actually be an assassin and rit, which means only 2 primaries playing as AP caller can, and only one of them is physical. And if you can afford the energy and time.
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You can only play MS/DB with a Sin. (What's your point?) A/Rt is just an example.... A/Me and A/E both have strong options too.
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So basically what you are telling me, is that you aren't actually bashing the concept of playing discord with physicals, but the concept of playing a melee assassin.
No I am completely bashing the idea of playing discordway with physical player.
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2nd) OotV just for the assassin and a few henchies (henchies have either bad builds or bad AI or both) is a waste. I would only use it with 3 humans or more, or 1 physical human with at least 2 or 3 paragon heroes. The only physical henchies worth taking would be the BHA and the Barrage rangers and the Paragon.
Do you understand the meaning of "strictly dominated?" OotV will ALWAYS do more DPS than discord if you are melee sin and have at least ~1 other physical hench. Equipping your heroes with spears makes it no contest. Do the math, and you will realize how ridiculous discordway with melee is.
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I assume a curses hero or a MM are a damn fine heros to bring regardless of its elite, but might as well be discord for a different type of backup damage not countered by anti-physical counters. The N/Rt is not an autopick, but certainly can hold its ground, especially with minions to fuel its energy.
Might as well make your curser OotV/curse rather than discord/curse.
13 Jul 2009 at 00:16 - 191
trevarsc
Indeed, I dont find Discord very effective with physical and especially melee based builds.
13 Jul 2009 at 00:40 - 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
Do you understand the meaning of "strictly dominated?" OotV will ALWAYS do more DPS than discord if you are melee sin and have at least ~1 other physical hench. Equipping your heroes with spears makes it no contest. Do the math, and you will realize how ridiculous discordway with melee is.
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Except when the enemy is blocking, when you are blinded, when you are hexed, etc.
And of course, the orders hero will be saccing health, making itself a nice target.
You will say that sabway is efficient with a physical char, I bet.
But the main difference is the presence of splinter weapon.
All the rest, either don't boost the damage directly or is present on the op version, like barbs and MoP (which the spear on the heroes, that I use, will trigger too).
So ditch one copy of discord.
Lets say we ditch the healer. Now we have a orders with splinter weapon or an orders with SoH.
Plus a curses necro with a copy of discord and a MM with a copy of discord.
No bodies for an MM? Ditch the MM instead.
You don't want to call it discordway because it only uses 2 discord necros? Fine. Who cares about the names?
Or are you telling me Weapons of Xinrae/Weapon of remedy, SS and the Jagged bones, the discord replaces are really that irreplaceable?
What I'm telling you, is that is nice to have a different source of damage. In this case, discord isn't your main source of damage - but it is a reliable source of damage, that wont be obstructed or blocked.
You are just focused that discord is a spike build and can only work that way - that is why you insist on those lightning 2-3s kills, even if during the battle they are casting 1 and 2 seconds skills and not discord.
Shocking news I guess - discord necros operate in a different way with physicals.
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Yes you will. In 1.75 seconds of YOUR time, you will generate 160 AoE damage by throwing it on a hench.
And what is your fascination with 160 damage? Do you realise that if the guy you hit is alone you do 0 damage?
13 Jul 2009 at 01:57 - 193
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And what is your fascination with 160 damage? Do you realise that if the guy you hit is alone you do 0 damage?
I have no fascination with the number. 160 comes out simply by the fact that I can do multiplication correctly.
13 Jul 2009 at 08:24 - 194
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Originally Posted by traversc
I never stated single packet 160 damage. 4 * 41 = 160.
Except your example stated 4 adjacent targets. Let me quote you: "...if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent..."
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Except that Splinter hits ONLY adjacents so you dont know maths either , its 3*41 on a target with 3 adj ( or 4 adj targets ) so its 123 dmg. And btw , 41x4 is 164 , not 160
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Originally Posted by traversc
You seem to completely misunderstand how Splinter Weapon works. Splinter at 12 channeling does 41 AoE damage 4 time to 3 targets. Using your set up example, with 4 targets around (which is obviously biased towards DB anyway), SW will do 3*4*41 damage, for a total of 492 damage. Obviously, superior to death blossom.
Proof above that you are the one that dont know how splinter works lol.The fact that you ignore REAL MATHS doesnt make them false. With that bolded sentence you proof that you are clueless about MS/DB. Period
You know, the great thing is you can adapt yourself to the circumstances. The melee hexes in question are barbs and mop. Additionally any minions, the heroes with spears and henchmen would still trigger it.
You would go against other target if the current target is getting too much protection, for example, or if he was an important target like a monk, but there is a nice group of foes that makes a great target for DB.
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I also dont quite understand why you claim that Asassin is a melee only class. It has two great casting lines, Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts s why shouldnt they cast?
Same for Dervishes, they have Wind and Earth prayers with skills to support allies and do damage.
I don't claim that. I claim that if you want to play melee with a sin and still use discord necros, you can without losing power.
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Dervishes are known to do great job supporting the party with orders and heal, not only melee damage which is actually somewhat mediocre for them.
Don't confuse the fact warriors and sins are better at melee than dervishes with "dervishes having mediocre damage at melee"
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So why shouldnt they cast? In fact, Dervishes have an energy manaegement by default like Necros, Mysticism. That means you won't have to spent even a half a second managing your energy.
Mysticism is far inferior to Soul reaping.
13 Jul 2009 at 20:45 - 198
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
And they still are shit as melee. They will still remove blind from a caster. They will still remove cracked armor from a para. They will still use PS to heal someone. So?
I play all the 10 professions. Took me 2 weeks to get an heavy bag by doing the zaishen PvE quests. I love to farm those easy missions like boreas seabed HM.
If your AP assassin caller is faster at killing then a moebius sin you are the one doing something wrong.
Playing an AP caller is far from being a rocket science!
You sure about that? Only PVE ZQuests? I call bullshit. There isn't enough Zcoins rewards out of 14 Zbounties and 14 ZQuests to earn 15 Zgolds. Takes about a month minimum. Or maybe you did PVP Z quests?
1 Zgold = 500 Zcopper * 15 = 7500 copper.
Max reward for ZBounties or ZMissions are 150.
2 * 14 * 150 = 4200 copper. And thats if every of these quests rewards 150 copper.
Nice try though.
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