Does discordway needs an AP caller?

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

At least with the hero team from the pvxwiki page, I'm finding that the first hex can't be AP. That's because the target will OFTEN die within the time frame, but not always, especially not if it's a boss, and bosses are, of course, very often the target you need to eliminate first. And if you call AP and your target doesn't croak, you've gimped your whole bar. So I need to hex the target with something else, YMLaD while I'm hexing, and then revert to AP when it becomes clear that the target really is going to go down. And that's pretty energy-intensive.

Where exactly are you guys using this team that you just steamroll everything? You're doing this in HM, right? I mean, yeah, it kills things, but not noticeably faster than other hero teams I've used, and the defense is horrible. (Recovery can't possibly be right on the N/Rt curser, but I haven't had the time to sit down and figure out what would be better.) The team seems to suck especially bad against groups with multiple casters.


Been running the pvx version everywhere pretty much and I always manage to kill the target in 3 seconds max.

On bosses it take a bit longer, but not too long.

It's good to have a backup hex though.

Also, if you cant figure out what would be better than just stfu, really. Whats wrong with Recov on N/Rt curser? It is the because backup spirit is hawt and it used to be 3 second cast, giving it to N/Rt that already has 2 sec cast life wouldve been stupid.

Now I have both spirits on one characters though when casting time's of spirits got decreased.

Defense is horrible? oO
You have two instant partyheals + Dwayna's Sorrow, double layer of blocks, prot spirit, debuffs...I mean, if you find that it's not enough you either making it up or doing something terribly wrong.
I've seen loads of you people. "BAWWWW PVXWIKI SLIVER FORM FARMER DOESNT WORK" says a noob in ally chat while pinging Permaform without GoS and random dagger attacks instead of pve skills. Yeah right man, it doesnt work because you ruined it, but they refuse to listen to that, they still blame pvx... -.-

Against groups with multiple casters that build is especially strong because it completely destroys them with kd-locks, powerful spike damage and fast partyheals.

Also yes, I play HM.

LOL, "stfu," great persuasive argument there.

What's wrong with recovery is that a spirit that doesn't do anything except make conditions expire faster CAN'T be the best choice. I understand the concept of dropping spirits in order to boost mend body and soul. I'm just not convinced that's the best spirit.

And another thing, since you mentioned dwayna's sorrow. I don't think I saw my guy cast it once. No idea what was wrong, but I'm not going to be microing dwayna's sorrow. My Mo/Me uses it like a maniac.

All I know is that my MS/DB sin does incomparably more damage than my AP caller. I'm not a mathematician and I'm not going to get into why and how; the calculations are too complex anyway to work out on paper. But I see stuff dying everywhere with MS/DB. When the discord thing works, yes, stuff dies; when it doesn't work, stuff doesn't really die. The MS/DB chain is much much much harder for foes to stop.

Look, I'm not bashing discord, and if you guys like it, by all means keep using it. But please stop talking as though it were the best possible hero setup, because it's not. And please stop talking as though anyone who prefers something else must be retarded. I finished every single HM challenge in the game before I ever even tried discord, and I did about 95% of it with hero-hench only.

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor

Also, if you cant figure out what would be better than just stfu, really. Whats wrong with Recov on N/Rt curser? It is the because backup spirit is hawt and it used to be 3 second cast, giving it to N/Rt that already has 2 sec cast life wouldve been stupid.

Now I have both spirits on one characters though when casting time's of spirits got decreased.

Defense is horrible? oO
You have two instant partyheals + Dwayna's Sorrow, double layer of blocks, prot spirit, debuffs...I mean, if you find that it's not enough you either making it up or doing something terribly wrong.

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Dawg What's wrong with recovery is that a spirit that doesn't do anything except make conditions expire faster CAN'T be the best choice. I understand the concept of dropping spirits in order to boost mend body and soul. I'm just not convinced that's the best spirit. I agree, that's why I don't bother with it.

Quote: And another thing, since you mentioned dwayna's sorrow. I don't think I saw my guy cast it once. No idea what was wrong, but I'm not going to be microing dwayna's sorrow. My Mo/Me uses it like a maniac. Funny you say this because I run this on Livia and she maintains it like a trooper.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Igor clearly never mentions using Glyph of Lesser Energy for shouts. So it makes no sense as to why you say it doesn't affect shouts, anyone with half a brain already knows this. Because people are saying that they can do their BILLION DAMAGE CHAIN every 2 secs.

An ASSASSIN can't do it without running into energy problems. It costs 35 energy. Even with rank 16, AP will only return 21 energy, so you are losing 14 energy every 2 seconds.

If you add gole you had time to your chain.

People in here keep giving the best possible scenarios to AP callers and the worst possible to the melee sins.

That wont happen in real game.

In real game the AP sin caller will fare worse than you guys are claiming and the assassin will fare a bit better.

That was my point.

Quote: Originally Posted by Improvavel An ASSASSIN can't do it without running into energy problems. It costs 35 energy. Even with rank 16, AP will only return 21 energy, so you are losing 14 energy every 2 seconds.

If you add gole you had time to your chain. If you add GoLE and take into account natural energy regeneration you don't lose any energy. The chain costs you 25 energy and you get 21 back with 4 energy regeneration per second. 1 extra second, which is normally between chains anyway while you switch targets, makes absolutely no difference.

Energy issues are nowhere near as bad as you are trying to make them out to be. Energy management skills, of which loads can be found, and high energy sets are more than enough to keep an AP caller going.

Quote:

People in here keep giving the best possible scenarios to AP callers and the worst possible to the melee sins. And you're not doing the exact opposite? In a thread where you want to compare efficiencies do you really expect any different? Quote: That wont happen in real game. In real game the AP sin caller will fare worse than you guys are claiming and the assassin will fare a bit better. That was my point. I'm having absolutely no issues with using an Assassin AP caller in the real game. I use it quite frequently and "personally" find it faster and more efficient than running MS/DB in a Discordway setup. That's my point.

Your heroes and hench dont care what you use

Quote: Originally Posted by maxxfury

Your heroes and hench dont care what you use Can't say I disagree.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc How is it efficient when it works slower than with a IAS? Jagged and Asuran Scan can fulfill the requirement for Discord to trigger, but it is less damage for the MS/DB to start with meaning you have to do more work on the far end of your chain which takes you longer to get to without an IAS. Not to mention I don't need to physically hit my target first to trigger Discord. You are confused again. LESS FASTER =\= Slower . I never said you have to get on melee to trigger Discord so i dont know why you say that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc It works but nowhere near as efficiently as an AP caller when you think about the amount of quick spike damage an AP caller does to start with while fueling Discord with a hex, damage, snare, and KD lock. It takes literally just one second to cast AP and "YMLaD!" providing you're in shout range (good positioning, something I covered previously). You still give best scenario to test on 1 target at time and thats fake. ANYwhere on GW is so BLOODY easy to bunch 3-5 enemies together and when it happens and the melee char uses his/her brain ( something that i think you tend to forget ) the damage imput can be INSANE. So please stop comparing best AP scenarios with worst melee scenarios please.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc Physically MS/DB, or any other physical build for that matter, can fuel Discord, thats not really a dispute as a monkey should understand anyone can lay a condition and hex on a target, but doing it as efficiently, especially when foes are nearing very low health is a different story. Especially seems MS/DB has to restart its chain, or pack other skills to compensate when switching targets. Thats not a big deal , is as problematic as energy management, timing and positioning with APcaller+Discord. You lack experience here mate , i can tell.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc With the style you're describing you're packing at least 5 skills, 6 if you include your IAS, AP caller can blow stuff up with just 4 giving better bar compression, and hence better efficiency. Again comparing Spike damage with good DOT ? no , dont fall on that sht again please dude , it has no use. Dont be confused again , easyness =\= efficiency .


Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc Yet it is just an example. Stop claiming theorycraft on stuff that is tried and tested. Last but not least Mesmer is not the only proffession that has energy management, it was a simple point that you can spec into many different proffessions for energy, and with the right planning for the area ahead you can pack yourself some utility too. Yeah yeah whatever now you are backing up because you know im right and it slows your chain no matter what you say so YES you are theorycrafting because you are talking in "general numbers" and dont say nothing specific so no one can throw it down. I could say the same about packing skills and IMS and whatever so when you are going to start talking like that, keep in mind that any1 can also talk like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc Just because something may be hard to use that doesn't mean it cannot be efective in the right hands, or the right area. This is where versatility comes into play. Thats what ppl who uses brain knows and some others dont , thanks. Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc Gluph of Lesser Energy has a 1 second cast time. So how is it only half the time taking one second to cast? You misread again , im not talking about Gole , im talking about making a fake "best scenario" because the chain doesnt last the same, is not the same 26 HM foes or lvl 30 , so chain time is not 3sec ( never ) or whatever numbers you say , not even 60% of the times. Period. Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc I disagree that it requires 0 skill. I see it as more of a build that is very easy to pick up and play but has alot more depth to it in the hands of an experienced player. I said ALMOST , please dont misread , and no ; the diff between an AP caller+Discordway on a normal player and on an experienced player is far from big , thats why is popular. Thats why sht like ursan was popular , this is the same sht , diff name. Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc Umm what? Yes , good smiley , it reads : confused : haha . Dont worry , it happens.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

And you're not doing the exact opposite?

In a thread where you want to compare efficiencies do you really expect any different?
No.

I'm not saying that.

All I'm saying is that
a) discord is efficient with physical heroes, because discords work well enough without an caller;

b) even in the case of an ASSASSIN (which is the best, by far, AP caller of any physicals) using the assassin as melee with discords has few or none disadvantages;

c) you will be hardly pressed to find a h/h build that works better than discord for physicals (not saying it is impossible, it is possible in some situations).

People just jumped and keep saying "NONONO discord without a caller sucks".

And the base argument is "because melee is melee so they have to be frontline and its safer to be far away from the enemy".

Quote: Originally Posted by Tenebrae You are confused again. LESS FASTER =\= Slower . I never said you have to get on melee to trigger Discord so i dont know why you say that. So where's your condition coming from if you use your melee? Micro of a Necro then force a cover? If you don't, and impose conditions yourself then you have to land a physical hit, and if you don't land any physical hits, where is your damage over time coming from to compensate for lack of using a caller spike assist? Your whole arguement is on the basis of DOT from MS/DB vs the spike of AP Caller, if you are not hitting with melee you are not doing any damage, there fore you are relying more on heroes to do your work and being less sufficient and efficient.

Quote: You still give best scenario to test on 1 target at time and thats fake. ANYwhere on GW is so BLOODY easy to bunch 3-5 enemies together and when it happens and the melee char uses his/her brain ( something that i think you tend to forget ) the damage imput can be INSANE. So please stop comparing best AP scenarios with worst melee scenarios please. If this is your playing style why are you even running Discordway? You should be running Sabway to take advantage of the wider AoE damage it can offer due to less attribute spread.

Quote: Thats not a big deal , is as problematic as energy management, timing and positioning with APcaller+Discord. You lack experience here mate , i can tell. Hardly, I've played Sin as my main since Factions release so I have more than enough experience on the melee side of playing an Assassin. Energy management, or even the time to use it on an AP caller, is nowhere near as big a problem as you even try to make it out to be, you can easily target switch while you activate whatever energy manegement you bring then get straight into your spike.

Quote: Again comparing Spike damage with good DOT ? no , dont fall on that sht again please dude , it has no use. Dont be confused again , easyness =\= efficiency. You don't need damage over time if you know how to use a AP caller with Discordway properly. Damage over time is only beneficial when stuff isn't dying fast, and if it isn't dying fast you're not running the build right.

Quote: Originally Posted by Improvavel a) discord is efficient with physical heroes, because discords work well enough without an caller; No one is disputing that you can use Discordway with physicals, we've been over this already. The big deal here seems to be quick spike or damage over time? Some of us dont see the need for damage over time, and some of us feel it is nessecary incase you fail with your spike.

Quote: b) even in the case of an ASSASSIN (which is the best, by far, AP caller of any physicals) using the assassin as melee with discords has few or none disadvantages; There's pros and cons to anything you run. Doesn't matter what it is everything has a counter.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc No one is disputing that you can use Discordway with physicals, we've been over this already. The big deal here seems to be quick spike or damage over time? Some of us dont see the need for damage over time, and some of us feel it is nessecary incase you fail with your spike. With discords+physicals I've 2 different ways of killing - the spike (which physicals can also do, since they have strong 1 foe damage) and AoE (all physicals have with the exception of Para and then you have the odd mop).



Quote:

Personally I think Sabway works just fine for physicals, I preffered using that with my MS/DB SY Sin than Discordway. From my experience it is slower and what it adds is more of the same - physical based damage with some splinter - meaning when they can counter/slow physical damage I've hardly any backup but SS (SS is slow). Discord offers me an additional path. And I can easily call one target for discords and henchs and go kill someone else on my own. Quote: It's more the ease of use, quick spike damage with utility, and less messing around with positioning, really. Basically that can be used for any ranged char...

Quote: Originally Posted by Improvavel With discords+physicals I've 2 different ways of killing - the spike (which physicals can also do, since they have strong 1 foe damage) and AoE (all physicals have with the exception of Para and then you have the odd mop). You can easily get some AoE out of MoP from throwing it on a Necros bar, the minions and EVAS will make good use of it. If you're a Necromancer you can throw it on as your cover hex and watch mobs explode.

Sure physicals can spike, but the difference is the nature, and compression, of it.

Quote:

From my experience it is slower and what it adds is more of the same - physical based damage with some splinter - meaning when they can counter/slow physical damage I've hardly any backup but SS (SS is slow). Discord offers me an additional path. And I can easily call one target for discords and henchs and go kill someone else on my own. But then you are not doing what the AP caller does, adding damage to the Discord spike and defeating the purpose of running Discord in the first place. I didn't really find Sabway slow, it is slower than Discord, but suit physicals with good AoE alot better in my opinion. Quote: Basically that can be used for any ranged char... I can't say I've tried but I'm not sure ranged physicals can output as much damage as either melee physicals or an AP caller.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc SNIP Thing is that in fact you agree with me.

You understand that discord heroes can in fact be used with physicals and the caller isn't needed for discord to work.

You understand and agree that the end result will be similar, only the way you get there and the play style is different.

I'm not telling you "YOU NOOB STOP PLAYING AP CALLERS CAUSE THEY SUXX".

I know that AP callers will work very well with casters and know it can work with an assassin. If you start using it with other physicals I'll deeply disagree because in that case using the physicals as physicals will be much more efficient.

You don't use a second restoration necro. Most people use 2 necro/resto. You will a curse necro and add several curses, like MOP if needs be. Other people will say that will reduce the number of discord casts.

I think u misunderstood my point - my point was: while a caller can make it go smoother (especially in the first mob or so), discordway is strong because NECROMANCER HEROES RULE COMPARED TO OTHER HEROES, due to SR, and heroes are good at spamming, so they spam hexes and discords really well regardless.

I made this thread because some people in that thread about "what heroes for an assassin" were saying "play caller and discord or play melee with sabs", and "nonono you can't play discord without a caller" and in my experience those are all lies.

Quote: Originally Posted by Improvavel Thing is that in fact you agree with me.

You understand that discord heroes can in fact be used with physicals and the caller isn't needed for discord to work.

You understand and agree that the end result will be similar, only the way you get there and the play style is different.

I'm not telling you "YOU NOOB STOP PLAYING AP CALLERS CAUSE THEY SUXX".

I know that AP callers will work very well with casters and know it can work with an assassin. If you start using it with other physicals I'll deeply disagree because in that case using the physicals as physicals will be much more efficient. So why are we debating when we're pretty much saying the same thing?

Quote: You don't use a second restoration necro. Most people use 2 necro/resto. You will a curse necro and add several curses, like MOP if needs be. Other people will say that will reduce the number of discord casts. Let's be realistic with this, no matter what you throw on the Necros bars they have another 7 skills that will be used as and when no matter what they are. The key is trying to synergise them.

Doesn't matter if the skills they're using are Restoration or Curses they will still use them, the difference is what they are using them for and is that purpose beneficial to what you're trying to achieve.

Quote: Originally Posted by improvel You understand that discord heroes can in fact be used with physicals and the caller isn't needed for discord to work. No one disagrees....

Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
Note I'm not saying melee sucks with discordway. Not at all. I'm not even saying melee + discord is weaker than discord + caller. These are two seperate arguments, and you seem to be confusing them.


Do I know what that "better build is?" Not quite. But it IS trivial to improve discordway by taking non-discord heroes. I'm sorry but ur posts fooled me.


Must be the part where I say something like adding something like a smiting monk...

In the areas you have 2 decent healers henchmen is easy to swap the resto healer for some other hero.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc So why are we debating when we're pretty much saying the same thing? Dunno. You could have said in ur first post "yes, it is just about as efficient, although assassin caller is possible too" or "I prefer sabway" or whatever.

Actually you said that, but you just assumed I was trying to force people into or out of something, or saying that callers sucked.

Quote: Let's be realistic with this, no matter what you throw on the Necros bars they have another 7 skills that will be used as and when no matter what they are. The key is trying to synergise them.

Doesn't matter if the skills they're using are Restoration or Curses they will still use them, the difference is what they are using them for and is that purpose beneficial to what you're trying to achieve. And some curses easily act as "protection", minimizing need for heal, so easily interchangeable with restoration heals.



Quote:

I dont think I ever saw you make that point, you're stating the obvious though. I didn't cause it is obvious. And if I didn't believe in the necro power I would say "Use this other build or that instead of idiot discordway" wouldn't I? Quote: Or like I said before, roll both in the same party and get the best of both worlds having one co-ordinated for spiking while the other focuses on mass AoE and buffing a melee physical. I think some people forget you have another 4 slots for party members in most areas. I generally do that, have 2 or 3 necro heroes when I play with other person (which is a large portion of the time) or with 7 heroes from another account, and use the other slots for other heroes like paras. But H/H is a bit limited in term of choices since most henchmen builds are really bad (especially in prophecies or factions). I still believe that for H/H, when playing with a physical, in most situations (especially in prophecies and factions areas where monk hechmen have crap like healing breeze), the discordway is simple faster and more robust. Just to remind you guys, my opening words: Quote: Original posted by me Apparently some player seems to believe that Discordway is only good when you run an AP caller build and that heroes wont use discord properly without it. That is incorrect. Heroes will attack any target you call, regardless of you casting hexes and conditions there or not. Discord heroes are one of the most powerful heroes setup for 1 man and a trio of those necros are still a great addition to a 2 players team. Of course you can't use the PvX wiki build though. You will have to build a trio of necros that will cast hexes/conditions, provide protection and healing and a minion wall. The key is to have hexes and conditions that are useful and affect more than one target. To clarify, the bit you can't use the PvX wiki build, it is in the absence of a caller. And the conclusion of my op: Quote: Originally posted by ME The main points are: once the hexes/conditions/enchantments are set discord works the same and the physical damage provided by the player will be the same or greater than the AP caller. Any hexes/conditions you cast are a bonus. The fact some, if not all, of the physical characters can run SY! is a boon not to be sneezed at. In conclusion, discordway can be used with no loss by a physical character. You can use the above builds, with minor area related alterations (or even change the MM or the Restoration necro for some other char - use ur best judgment to which one is the least useful), to do the missions in HM and do your vanquishers, fast and easily (it helps if you know what a physical character, especially a melee one, are supposed to do and how to play it). Sincerely this seems awfully similar to what you traversc and you Unreal Havoc said in your last post.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc So where's your condition coming from if you use your melee? Micro of a Necro then force a cover? If you don't, and impose conditions yourself then you have to land a physical hit, and if you don't land any physical hits, where is your damage over time coming from to compensate for lack of using a caller spike assist? Your whole arguement is on the basis of DOT from MS/DB vs the spike of AP Caller, if you are not hitting with melee you are not doing any damage, there fore you are relying more on heroes to do your work and being less sufficient and efficient. Once again , you are just making that up , from where the hell did the bolded part come from ? you are just misunderstanding the things i say , blurring it , turning it over upside down and making "general cases" on your on dude.


Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc If this is your playing style why are you even running Discordway? You should be running Sabway to take advantage of the wider AoE damage it can offer due to less attribute spread. Another thing you are inventing , WHEN did i say that i USUALLY run discord way dude ? please stop arguing about something i never said.


Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc Hardly, I've played Sin as my main since Factions release so I have more than enough experience on the melee side of playing an Assassin. I highly doubt that and if its so , you played gimmick build so much that you forgot about 80% of that experience you claim to have but go ahead.


Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc You don't need damage over time if you know how to use a AP caller with Discordway properly. Damage over time is only beneficial when stuff isn't dying fast, and if it isn't dying fast you're not running the build right. Once again , WHERE did i say that you NEED DOT when playing as an AP Caller ?. DOT is ALWAYS good because heres a tip , you are not killing 8 mobs at 1 time with an AP caller , you only kill 1. Thats because is a spike build and dot build tend to leave the entire foe group on low HP at the same time ( for god sake i cant believe i did have to tell you this ).

Quote: Originally Posted by upier

Hopefully all the people that are arguing for the insane speed of Disco kills are all microing Disco, right?
You do know that without doing that a lot of the things said here are just a nice theory? You actually have a point. Without microing Discord, shit won't die instantly. You'll probably stand around for upwards of 3 seconds before all three necros decide to cast Discord. However, when playing with something like a Sidewinder mouse, discord is lulzy.

The great thing about the AP caller, as mentioned before, is the 4 open slots. usually i bring one hex(something like parasitic bond because it's cheap and recharges quickly), one condition(enfeeble or similar), and the last two slots can be anything thats needed for the area. The hex and condition are for the off chance that AP gets removed before the target dies. This is only a precaution, because if AP is getting removed enough to cause problems at every mob, you shouldnt be using Discord in said area.

Overall, an AP IS faster. If you're playing discord right, you won't have enough time to get this "sustained" damage you're talking about. Usually when playing a critscythe i'll get two swings in(including WS) and the target will fall dead. In the meantime, you're running back and forth wasting time trying to get from enemy to enemy to kill it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Life Bringing

This is only a precaution, because if AP is getting removed enough to cause problems at every mob, you shouldnt be using Discord in said area. While you have very good points, this one isn't exactly accurate. If AP is getting removed enough you shouldn't be using AP not discord :P

Why?

First discord can work without hexes, it needs a condition and either a hex or an enchantment. Ok, hexes are easier to control.

But that is why having multiple foe affecting hexes and multiple fast recharging ones gets useful. Barbs, shadow of fear, etc, might not be as good for the AP caller play style, but for a DoT melee build that uses discord will do just fine.