Does discordway needs an AP caller?

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

That would be great .... but its a shame that is a LIE. Still faking times dude ? who do you think you are fooling ?. You kill everything in 3 secs with an Full AP chain of 35 energy , losing 14 ( because if you say not full chain is 25 energy and you are only losing 14 theres no way in hell you are killing in 3 secs ) and you ONLY have to e-management every .... 5-10 chains ?. 100% BS , and even more , you say "time wasted running from target to target" like the mobs spread with at least 10mt from each other and were ALWAYS running. Seriously dude no way. when i ran an ap caller on mes i used ether sig, and it cast fine and never interupted my chain and finished just before finish him procs.

So casting a glyph to coincide with FH will be no different, and will be ready again after every AP.

the 1sec gap between evas aftercast and the time when FH procs is enough to cast a glyph/ether sig ect. (maybe loose a fraction of a second in the delay. timing isnt hard :S

But unless you running a nec,i dare say you need to use your eman more tha once every 10 chains..

Carnivorous Cupcake

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07 Jul 2009 at 14:23 - 129

The answer is YEA!

Discord without AP Caller is like lolrus without a bukkit, very sad.

Tenebrae

Me and my guildie decided to vanquish a bit. I ran AP Caller and Discords, he ran MS/DB with SS Necro, Channeling Rit and Incoming!/Fall Back! paragon for speed. Most of the time poor fella couldn't even land a hit on the same target i attacked let alone getting all the way to MS.

Thats a good comparisson of AP Caller effectiveness to MS/DB, it also shows that among all melee choices MS/DB isn't the best choice.

Waiting 1 extra second to cast energy management when you play A/E or E/A isn't a big deal because you will only have to cast it once in around 20 seconds like traversc said. It's not a lie, it's true, I get the same results.

AP Caller is better, trust me, you will see it for yourself when you stop stubbornly denying it and evaluate all pros and cons in an unbiased manner or try it on practise if it's too hard for you (or do both, if you arent lazy).

Paul Dawg

Discords are a perfect team for a game like Guild Wars because it allows allot of variety and adaptation possibility is needed.

Blocks have no effect on my killing speed whatsoever because spells cannot be blocked and EVAS spike chain consists fully 2/3 of unblockable attack skills and 1/3 of touch skills that obviously go through block too.

You should remember that sometimes you heroes will refuse to cast Discord and start casting other things or just kiting thats why you must have Discords keybound in case that happens because AP Caller has no dot at all. Althoguh I can't disagree with people who say it has has a pretty good spike it wont be enough to kill high hp mobs in Hard Mode. ^^

In Elona reach, were you running AP Caller or something else?

Super Igor

Being "perfect" and having a short temper at the same time only scores you bans, telling you this from personal expirience, I hope you will remember it next time you return.

Tenebrae

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Join Date: Feb 2007

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07 Jul 2009 at 15:23 - 130

Waiting 1 extra second to cast energy management when you play A/E or E/A isn't a big deal because you will only have to cast it once in around 20 seconds like traversc said. It's not a lie, it's true, I get the same results. Not only me , there are about 3 or 4 ppl in this thread that thinks the opposite . Keep in mind that traversc states that he can kill ANY HM mob ( regardless of lvl , zone , and profs ) in 3secs or less with a FULL AP chain ( 35 energy , 14 loss ) without casting emanagement in around 20 secs , that means 7 chains = 91 energy lost ( ok 75-85 if you count regen ). Please tell me what E-management are you using to get those results on a X/A ( N/A not allowed , soul reaping ). Words are cheap huh ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake
AP Caller is better, trust me, you will see it for yourself when you stop stubbornly denying it and evaluate all pros and cons in an unbiased manner or try it on practise if it's too hard for you (or do both, if you arent lazy). Is better sometimes , is equal others and some is worse. That guy you mentioned is talking like it was GODSPEED KILLING 100% of the times. Stop calling me "unbiased" and stubborn because for god sake im SO FAR of that. Tell me to experiment an easy smash button build kinda sounds like you think that build actually requieres skill to use ..... thanks for making me laugh 3 secs .

Soz dude but this thread is so long and some ppl has dropped huge amounts of fake times and impressive unfair comparisons on purpose that sometimes you think you are saying something pretty fair with reasons and those reasons are not so true.

Carnivorous Cupcake

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07 Jul 2009 at 16:55 - 131

Tenebrae

The point is that MS/DB is by nature poorly suited for spiking, thats why if you for any reason decide to run it instead of AP Caller with Discords you will be unlikely to ynlesh your combo to full potential before the target is destroyed.

Our sync was obviously lacking due to this, half way through the Vanquish my guildie got fed up and we had to go back so he could roll a Critscythe and replace the SS Necro with AP Curses necro, worked much better.

For MS/DB alternative I will go with what others have said and suggest a Wounding Strike Critscythe. It can apply Discord requrements without "gimping" it's bar, it can unlesh it's high damage attack combo much quicker too so it's ideal for spiking. I won't advise to run it instead of AP Caller still though.

In total any profession with four pips of energy regen is only going to lose around 10-11 energy, thats not a big deal considering all of those professions have around 50 energy minimum and extra means of managing their energy if necessary.

3 second kills is true, thats how long it takes me with Assassin, Monk, Ritualist and Necro, little more with Warrior but I rarely run Discords on him. I assume its the same with other profs I dont play.

I only see you and Improvavel arguing against AP Caller, that includes energy management.

Ok now on my Monk I use Castigation Signet to manage my energy if needed. It has decent armor ignoring damage and works all the time because mobs are always attacking.

My Ritualist is either using Essence Strike or Boon of Creation which makes EVAS pretty much free, I also add Explosive Growth which makes my EVAS deal a bit of extra AoE damage as well.

My Warrior doesnt have any decent eenrgy management, counterattack isn't good enough and is hard to pull off but as I have said i rarely use Discords with my War.

I dont have Mesmer, Ele, Ranger and Para but they can manage their energy very well with Inspiration Magic line, Mysticism, Leadership, my friends have expirience running AP Caller with these professions and have never comlained about energy, they say theyre always full.

Rangers can spec into beast mastery and use Scavenger's Strike which is a very decent energy management. Pet will also provide a very good aggro sink.

I'm calling you stubborn and biased because your posts, contrary to traversc, lack reasoning or referring to personal expirience but consist mostly of harassment and total refusal to listen.

I think that you should try AP Caller + Discords, you will see how good it is. It won't make you wrong or make people laugh at you, quite contrary actually.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

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07 Jul 2009 at 17:38 - 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake
The point is that MS/DB is by nature poorly suited for spiking, thats why if you for any reason decide to run it instead of AP Caller with Discords you will be unlikely to ynlesh your combo to full potential before the target is destroyed.

No one said MS/DB is made for a spike and who said that Discord should always attack the same target at the same time than the sin ? can switch in 0.1 , is just simply not the way you play it . I encourage YOU to try instead tell me to try the opposite ( wich i already did , soz if you dont believe me , is not my prob ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Me and my guildie decided to vanquish a bit. I ran AP Caller and Discords, he ran MS/DB with SS Necro, Channeling Rit and Incoming!/Fall Back! paragon for speed. Most of the time poor fella couldn't even land a hit on the same target i attacked let alone getting all the way to MS.

That only proofs that you and your guildie dont know how to sync with each other. If you agree with traversc ( i pity you ) and you can kill 1 HM ( no matter what lvl it is , except bosses ) in 3 secs , its pretty brainless for the another human melee to attack the same target you and your discord heroes are killing. That , my friend as you can see , proofs nothing but the fact that you didnt work together as well as you should do , it has nothing to do with this discussion soz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake View Post

Thats a good comparisson of AP Caller effectiveness to MS/DB, it also shows that among all melee choices MS/DB isn't the best choice. As i said before , no , is not a good comparison by far. Im curious , what ( in your opinion ) are best melee choices WITHOUT an AP caller for discord ? keep in mind that Critscythe has been said before.

Quote: Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

For MS/DB alternative I will go with what others have said and suggest a Wounding Strike Critscythe. It can apply Discord requrements without "gimping" it's bar, it can unlesh it's high damage attack combo much quicker too so it's ideal for spiking. I won't advise to run it instead of AP Caller still though. Thats your opinion but i have played Critscythe and MS/DB bloody lots of times and i can tell ya ,for damage and Discord triggering is ALMOST the same for those builds , try it instead of being stubborn ( recognize the attitude ?

) .

Quote: Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake View Post

In total any profession with four pips of energy regen is only going to lose around 10-11 energy, thats not a big deal considering all of those professions have around 50 energy minimum and extra means of managing their energy if necessary. If your chain is 5-6secs long , thats true , but if you are doing 7 full AP chains every 21 secs , thats a lie. Pure maths you cant beat that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake View Post

3 second kills is true, thats how long it takes me with Assassin, Monk, Ritualist and Necro, little more with Warrior but I rarely run Discords on him. I assume its the same with other profs I dont play.

No its noooot and you know iiiiiiiiit . Is not the same on lvl 26 foes than lvl 30 , nor even if you have microed discord wich i can tell you at least 50% of the Discord users haaaaaave and ..... well .
There are so SO SO MANY situations where the chain times vary that if you want to say a number , saying the LOWEST full APchain kill time is so untrue that its almost a lie .

Quote: Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake View Post

I only see you and Improvavel arguing against AP Caller, that includes energy management. Nope , we are the only ones that still have fun posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

... emanagements etc ...
Rangers can spec into beast mastery and use Scavenger's Strike which is a very decent energy management. Pet will also provide a very good aggro sink. Im not saying that is a bad e management but explain me if you ONLY use it every 7 full AP CHAINS ( 21 sec ) how do you get 75-85 energy back ? you dont. Period.
Talking about the ranger mmmmmmmm , taking a pet with scavenger is hella risky , i bad shot and your bar goes down 3 ..... X seconds depending on BM att.

I'm calling you stubborn and biased because your posts, contrary to traversc, lack reasoning or referring to personal expirience but consist mostly of harassment and total refusal to listen. That is your opinion but hey , im not here faking maths or making false "fair" scenarios where my build ALWAYS wins , remember it. I say builds, i say skills but some guys keep talking in "general" because they really know that when they claim something we are gonna take it down with ease and real maths .

I think that you should try AP Caller + Discords, you will see how good it is. It won't make you wrong or make people laugh at you, quite contrary actually.

I dont really know why you still think that me or Improvavel actually NEVER tested or tried AP caller + Discords microing discord to 3 keys on several ZQ ( for example ) , and even more ; dunno why you think that WE think the build is not good

I really encourage you to find a melee/ranged build to play discord effectively without AP ( i can tell you , is not hard ) instead of telling us to play something that we already played . Try switching targets and playing as a MS/DB or CritScythe or whatever if you are not lazy and used to a button smasher brainless skilled build ( note that never said BAD build )

PS: And please , dont call ppl names , you dont need to

Omgopolis

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2007

07 Jul 2009 at 17:59 - 133

I've played around with an AP caller on my monk, and energy does get tight rather quickly if you have to use AP, YMLaD, the sin support, and Finish Him for each target. Even getting an occasional Blood Ritual from a necro henchie doesn't solve energy issues, and it slows you down a lot after killing 3 guys. I did have to use all 4 skills to spike down each target, but that's probably because my titles for each skill are rather low, so the damage isn't as high as it could be. Maybe if I did some title grinding I could save a lot of energy.

I've also noticed that even a small amount of hex or condition removal can screw you over, as long as the mob has it on more than one enemy. Rather annoying to try and kill a monk or rit and have a different guy remove a condition or hex and stop the discords. Worst case, you're stuck relying on your heroes or henchies to spread the hexes for you, and that can be pretty slow.

I've also played around with discord stuff on my para, using asuran scan and barbed spear for the hex and condition. Not quite as solid for spiking, but since both skills charge quickly and can be used often it's quite nice for areas with more hex/condition removal. It definitely beats trying to run an AP caller on a guy with 2 pips of energy regen.

The AP caller is pretty solid, but it's not perfect and you can definitely run discord without it.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

07 Jul 2009 at 18:17 - 134

Keep in mind that traversc states that he can kill ANY HM mob I never evah said that dude

I realize discordway limitations. I wouldn't take it to vloxen HM for example.
It's not a lie. By the 3-4th target, you don't need full chain, since they'll probably be limping at around 1/2 health from all the random AoE/henchmen dmg/death nova/degen etc. A lot of the time you actually only need AP + FH! when they're already < 50 which recharges your energy pretty quickly.

Also, please stop with the random flaming. I realize you are new, but it doesn't help in debating.

@Paul Dawg: I dont recall elona's reach being particularly difficult. I did it with discordway + 2 pugs. I'll try it with henchmen later.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

07 Jul 2009 at 19:19 - 135

Yet again you don't realize how to run an ap caller.

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post

I love those kind of remarks. A monkey can run AP caller.

My Necro runs an AP caller with no problems. Opposed to other classes and especially vs physical classes, it has much much better way energy management. Even then I need to refrain the use of my backup skills like reckless haste because MOP+EVAS+YMLAD+AP or whatever combination is energy demanding.

In your wet dreams and with micro discord can work like some people are saying in here. In game it doesn't work like that. Just doesn't.

Quote:

Tenebrae

The point is that MS/DB is by nature poorly suited for spiking, thats why if you for any reason decide to run it instead of AP Caller with Discords you will be unlikely to ynlesh your combo to full potential before the target is destroyed.

Our sync was obviously lacking due to this, half way through the Vanquish my guildie got fed up and we had to go back so he could roll a Critscythe and replace the SS Necro with AP Curses necro, worked much better. Best use for your sin would have been go bash someone else while the rest of the team focused on your target.

Melee professions needs a bit more thinking. That is why they have low reputation.

I think that you should try AP Caller + Discords, you will see how good it is. It won't make you wrong or make people laugh at you, quite contrary actually.

Yeah, I run it with my necro, clearly the best profession for AP caller of the game.

Still, the claims in this thread are hard to fulfill even with the best emag in the game - kills every 2 secs, butt loads of support skills, etc.

No, melee+discord plays different from APcaller+discord, but the end result is about the same, in terms of time spent to kill a full mob.

Carnivorous Cupcake

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08 Jul 2009 at 10:20 - 136

Tenebrae

I'm not telling you a lie, those are actual averege killing times.

Indeed, MS/DB isn't made for a spike, thats why I dislike it in a spike orientaited build.

I like Critscythe better because it has quicker chain and is better at applying conditions without hindering it's abilities.
I also like the AP Caller because it is best at applying the requrements and also comes with decent spike, knocklocks and 4 free slots. For example on my Assassin I am currently experimentig with FH! + Epid combo to spread Deepwound and Cracked armor around, needs good reaction but is quite effective.

Maybe 20 seconds is a bit of an overestimate but I said around, maths dont really apply here because theoretical result doesn't take any variables into consideration like for example you can already have a condition on the target that has lost some hp so you only have to cast AP and follow with FH! Thats also the reason why I dont believe that either of you tried the AP Caller, all of yor statements are based on theory, not practice.
It takes me on averege 3 seconds to take a mob down, I can make 4 full spikes before expiriencing energy problems and lets add roughly another second to each spike for time requred to select a new target assuming all new targets are at full hp (which is very unlikely) it will take me around 16 seconds until I will have to cast energy management, in a more realistic scenario where making a full chain sometimes is not requred, it's around 20 seconds, so I think my timing is right.

Don't tell me what to do or what to play.
I won't play a less effective build for the sake of it, I will keep playing a strong build I like.

Skill level requred to play AP Caller compared to MS/DB.
You say it's mindless button mashing, I say it's hardly different from other Assassin builds because in fact you need more timing, less mindless button mashing and same target selection skill (if not more because wrongly picked target can be devastating for Discord) than MS/DB running which only requres going through your chain in a repetative fasion and not forgetting to mantaining any buffs you have brought with yourself. Not saying it's a bad build or anything like that though.

Improvavel

I wouldn't make such remarks about the AP Caller, playing an AP Caller is like playing a caster afer all, and playing a caster has more depth to it in my opinion.

You argue for MS/DB but as I have said above in my reply to Tenebrae I can say that build doesn't have more depth than AP Caller.

You must micro Discord for best effects, heroes sometimes refuse to cast Discord when they should.

Discord works exactly like people have described here, very fast kills, it's amazing. Try running it like people suggest here, you will see.

Tenebrae

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08 Jul 2009 at 11:46 - 137

I'm not telling you a lie, those are actual averege killing times.

What part of this "There are so SO SO MANY situations where the chain times vary that if you want to say a number , saying the LOWEST full APchain kill time is so untrue that its almost a lie ." didnt you get ?. Dont say your experiences are the average on the build. It will be sad for me to have to explain you WHY i am right and you are not.

Quote:

Maybe 20 seconds is a bit of an overestimate but I said around, maths dont really apply here because theoretical result doesn't take any variables into consideration

Hahahaha i see you retreat , thanks , at least you have what it takes to do it.

Quote:

Don't tell me what to do or what to play. Take your own advice , dont tell me what to do , what to play or take for granted ( based only in your opinion ) what i have or havent played/tested and time ive spent doing it.

Thats also the reason why I dont believe that either of you tried the AP Caller, all of yor statements are based on theory, not practice.

You are wrong and like i told ya before , i dont care if you dont believe me but im actually telling the truth. Dont make your experience and your use of the build as the "average" its a bloody HUGE mistake

like this ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake View Post

It takes me on averege 3 seconds to take a mob down, I can make 4 full spikes before expiriencing energy problems and lets add roughly another second to each spike for time requred to select a new target assuming all new targets are at full hp (which is very unlikely) it will take me around 16 seconds until I will have to cast energy management, in a more realistic scenario where making a full chain sometimes is not requred, it's around 20 seconds, so I think my timing is right.

I bet my left arm that at least 70% of the Discordway users in all GW players in the world CANT do that so , IF ( and yes , its an Empire State building size "IF" ) those numbers are your true average times ( no matter zone or HM foe lvl ) theres no way in hell that can be taken as FULL BUILD average killing times. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

I can say that build doesn't have more depth than AP Caller. Dude , the only thing that doesnt have more depth than an AP caller is an Ursan build and its nerfed.

You must micro Discord for best effects, heroes sometimes refuse to cast Discord when they should.

Discord works exactly like people have described here, very fast kills, it's amazing. Try running it like people suggest here, you will see. We know what has to be done , its you the one that doesnt realise that you and some ppl are making a lot of assumptions , playing unfair comparison cases and selling their own experience with X prof , X modifications and their "real" (

) killing times as the Average build times and that mate , that is very far from reality.

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

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08 Jul 2009 at 13:40 - 138

Ap: 3/4sec cast + 3/4 sec aftercast 1 1/2 seconds
Ymlad!: shout. 0 seconds.
EvAs: 1sec cast + 3/4 aftercast 1 3/4 seconds
FH!: Shout. 0 seconds.

So you have 3 1/4 seconds NOT counting player been slow and not hitting them perfectly! Micro discord in in the first seconds to allow for discords aftercast. And the mob is dead. All skills are recharged and aftercast has completed. Rinse and repeat.

So that works out at a kill every 4 seconds~ giving time for selecting next target and delays in your play(due to lag, slow fingers) thats how it goes for most targets.

half way through a mob you can stop casting the sin and just AP+ylmad, FH the target. cutting the chain to 3seconds~ due to the henchies/rest of teams aoe/damage and what ever your spammed sins have been doin.

That covers an entire group from first to last
monster(not inc boss types) So for most mobs 4 or 3 seconds kill times are easily achievable WITH micro of discord.

A little slower if you dont micro due to the trio casting their other skills if you need your necs to heal ect if your taking too much damage.

THATS why people use disco, because its THAT easy. any idiot can do that in their sleep. hell macro all the buttons to your mouse/g15 if you must(or just jab all your keyboard binds at once)

Disco is easy mode to h&h, hence you use the easiest and least effort primer bar. *shrugs.

If you wanna make some effort and think about your team you take your friends and smash stuff up with melee and bitches way harder!

To answer the OP's question....YES you can use a melee caller...No one cares what you run! your heroes and hench deffo dont

Shursh

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

KaVa

08 Jul 2009 at 14:32 - 139

omg, so much discussion over something so trivial...

no, discordway does not need an AP caller, however it will be faster to apply the necessary hex/condition if you use an AP caller, plus you get the added benefit of having powerful PvE skills recharged with huge energy returns.

Carnivorous Cupcake

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08 Jul 2009 at 15:09 - 140

Tenebrae

My averege killing time is 3 seconds, same for my entire guild and every person in this thread aoart from you. Maybe, we just happened to be those 30% of godly players but by a more realistic scenario you would have to give up your left arm.

I assumed you havent tried AP Caller Discords because you denied that this is possible, but now I think that something might be wrong with your playstyle or builds. ^^

Saying that I'm wrong without anything to back it up won't go a long way.

Do I retreat? No, I have povided evidence that around 20 seconds is what it realisticly takes until you have to cast energy management. You have ignored that completely, just like any other evidence, so who is really retreating eh?

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

08 Jul 2009 at 17:17 - 141

Improvavel

You must micro Discord for best effects, heroes sometimes refuse to cast Discord when they should.

Discord works exactly like people have described here, very fast kills, it's amazing. Try running it like people suggest here, you will see. If I hadn't run discord with an AP caller I could probably buy what people are saying, but I have so I know it isn't like that.

Yes, you can score a kill in 3 secs and after the first kill you will start to have to micro discord to score those kills or you wont get them. People in here insist otherwise.

Also you won't be able to do your chain all the time due to energy constrains, like losing 14 energy every 2-3 secs. So you will start to lose some of the damage.

And if you don't micro it, it gets a lot slower. People are saying they don't need to micro to achieve that efficiency.

I say they need to micro it or you can forget those perfect 3 secs kills.

And then people insist they can actually do all that, without micro and still cast support, while keeping all the damage, the speed skill, blad di blah.

No, they can't do that without micro.

And since they cant do all that, the absurd made up superiority people are claiming AP caller sin has over melee sin is denied.

And if you can spend all your time microing discord in areas that it will take 1-2 minutes more without micro, I just can't be bothered except in areas that are hard.

And microing discord, forcing your heroes to cast it every 2-3 secs don't give them much time to cast other skills, does it?

Carnivorous Cupcake

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08 Jul 2009 at 17:30 - 142

Improvavel

I think nobody in this thread claimed that you dont have to micro Discord, I think it's perfectly clear that you should because heroes sometimes refuse to cast the spell.

Looks like an attempt to save face by squeezing out another argument.

AP Caller is just the fastest at applying the requrements and ability to dish out large ammount of damage fast improves you killing speeds greatly.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

08 Jul 2009 at 18:24 - 143

My averege killing time is 3 seconds, same for my entire guild and every person in this thread aoart from you. Maybe, we just happened to be those 30% of godly players but by a more realistic scenario you would have to give up your left arm.

You are just making that up ( bolded part , ofc i dont care about your guildies )and then say that I dont have nothing to back it up . If i have 0 you have -4 dude , face it. For god sake you are calling ppl that uses APdiscordway "godly players" , i pity you

I assumed you havent tried AP Caller Discords because you denied that this is possible, but now I think that something might be wrong with your playstyle or builds. ^^

Hahahaha this one actually made me laugh , "playstyle" and "APcaller Discords" in the same sentence.

Quote:

Saying that I'm wrong without anything to back it up won't go a long way.

Saying that i have nothing to back it up without proofs doesnt make it true ( yeah , i parabol you lol ) , it only proofs that either you havent read the entire thread or you dont know maths / understand a words anyone said.

You have ignored that completely, just like any other evidence, so who is really retreating eh?

Yes you are , now you started using "ifs" and "arounds" and you are ignoring maths , the only absolute truth.

You know what ? is useless bothering with someone that actually thinks that playing AP caller + Discordway requires skill ( lol @ godly players hahaha ) and doesnt even know the meaning of AVERAGE .

Carnivorous Cupcake

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08 Jul 2009 at 19:45 - 144

Tenebrae

No, I'm not making anything up, if you dont want to see something it doesn't mean it's not there.
Have a look through this thread and you will se that even your buddy Improvavel admits the times are true.
You also should improve your reading comprehension. You say that 70% of players cant kill in 3 seconds with AP Caller + Discords, then the other 30% must be very good.

Quote:

The proof is right there in your posts. For example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by You

"There are so SO SO MANY situations where the chain times vary that if you want to say a number , saying the LOWEST full APchain kill time is so untrue that its almost a lie ."

Example?

Why do you consider 3 seconds lowest, example of personal expirience?

Not only me , there are about 3 or 4 ppl in this thread that thinks the opposite .
Names?

Link?

What exactly is their opinion on this?

I also understand what people say very well, can't say the same about you though.

Originally Posted by You

I'm not ignoring maths at all but I disagree with your calculations because they dont bring variables into consideration, even the obvious ones like energy regen.

Yes, I believe that AP Caller requres skill, at least none less than MS/DB. I dont think that it is as effortless as teddy.
I ask you to prove me wrong now, I gave you the reasons why I have this point of view, give me the reasons why you have the opposite.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

08 Jul 2009 at 20:53 - 145

Improvavel

Looks like an attempt to save face by squeezing out another argument.

Hopefully all the people that are arguing for the insane speed of Disco kills are all microing Disco, right?
You do know that without doing that a lot of the things said here are just a nice theory?

Originally Posted by upier View Post

Originally Posted by traversc

No it is not, and that pretty much just shows YOUR own fail. On my necro, I cast the full chain all the time (AP YMLAD, EVAS, FH!). When I tried micro, I am usually not able to cast the full chain before the target dies.

This is not theorycraft, but logic to back up experience. In other words, if you have trouble killing without micro-ing, YOU fail not discordway. I'm tired of people making stuff up.

All this mambo jambo "I'm a good player and you suck".

Grow up.

Carnivorous Cupcake

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08 Jul 2009 at 23:20 - 146

Improvavel

Nobody makes stuff up, I am sure everybody knows how to micro Discord and know that it should be microed.

Also you ask people to grow up but accusing people of lieing or making stuff up every time you hear something you dont want to isn't very grown up behaviour in the first place, hypocricy I'm telling ye.

Improvavel

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08 Jul 2009 at 23:34 - 147

08 Jul 2009 at 23:40 - 148

Carnivorous Cupcake

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Improvavel

I dont understand what youre trying to say but no one makes stuff up.

Improvavel

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08 Jul 2009 at 23:50 - 149

Improvavel

I dont understand what youre trying to say but no one makes stuff up. Didn't u say that noone was saying that you don't have to micro discord?

There one person at least saying you don't have to micro discord.

AtomicMew

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09 Jul 2009 at 00:01 - 150

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I'm tired of people making stuff up.

All this mambo jambo "I'm a good player and you suck".

Grow up. No u grow up. Q.Q

What Upier was saying was bullcrap. I haven't manual'ed discord for probably over a year now. He was basically saying if u dont manual ur being subpar. Sorry, I then concluded 1+1=2.

Improvavel

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09 Jul 2009 at 00:03 - 151

Originally Posted by traversc

No u grow up. Q.Q

What Upier was saying was bullcrap. I haven't manual'ed discord for probably over a year now. He was basically saying if u dont manual ur being subpar. Sorry, I then concluded 1+1=2. You and cupcake can settle your differences then, since he is saying you need to micro it.

Unreal Havoc

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09 Jul 2009 at 00:28 - 152

Improvavel

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09 Jul 2009 at 00:38 - 153

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

In general for the most part your heroes are clever enough to cast Discord on a called target without microing.

It can be more efficient to bind Discord though and micro it as they will prioritise the spike that bit faster at the expense of other actions that may be very well keeping your party alive. Basically what Tenebrae and I have been saying all time: it isn't all roses for one side and all nightmare for the other.

And since an AP caller and a melee work in a different way it is possible, by going different avenues, reach a very similar end result.

AtomicMew

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09 Jul 2009 at 02:20 - 154

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Basically what Tenebrae and I have been saying all time: it isn't all roses for one side and all nightmare for the other.

And since an AP caller and a melee work in a different way it is possible, by going different avenues, reach a very similar end result. That's true, except that's not what you have been "saying all time." I don't know about tenebrae, since I don't even read his posts anymore, but you quite clearly stated that melee is better or equivalent to AP caller in all situations, which is clearly false.

Improvavel

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09 Jul 2009 at 03:05 - 155

Originally Posted by traversc

That's true, except that's not what you have been "saying all time." I don't know about tenebrae, since I don't even read his posts anymore, but you quite clearly stated that melee is better or equivalent to AP caller in all situations, which is clearly false. It is better or equivalent to the AP caller of the same profession.

And I don't see why is God Sword warrior, an Imbagon, a MS/DB inferior to some AP callers.

Are you saying any physical profession is inferior to the AP caller?

The main advantage the AP caller has is to control the requirements for discord, but unless you keep microing your heroes - basically turning them in Discord spammers, cause if you do your chain every 2 seconds (gods know with what energy, if you aren't a necro) they aren't casting anything else are they? - that advantage is quite fleeting, because then enemies are hexed with AoE hexes like shadow of fear and AoE conditions like enfeebling blood.

Sincerely I prefer a team that will cast enfeebling blood and shadow of fear while spamming a bit less discord, then one that just spams discord.

AtomicMew

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09 Jul 2009 at 07:04 - 156

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The main advantage the AP caller has is to control the requirements for discord, but unless you keep microing your heroes - basically turning them in Discord spammers, cause if you do your chain every 2 seconds Ah... I think I see the problem. You are thinking you need to micro discord with an AP caller.

You do not need all your discorders to use discord to do your chain. A full chain alone does 250 (shouts) + ~200 (EVAS) = ~450 damage. Let's say your target has 600 HP (for the record, charr have even less). You do not need all heroes to use discord on your target = 300 damage, because that's overkill. Even just 1 discord + random hench/AoE/degen etc. is enough to kill off the target.

After the first couple targets, the remaining targets have already taken damage from AoE, and don't even need a full chain most of the time. A lot of the time,you can even get away with just AP + FH! to kill instantly, refilling your energy as well.

Do you understand now?

Carnivorous Cupcake

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09 Jul 2009 at 09:33 - 157

Improvavel

I still fail to see where the people you have quoted denied occasional need to micro Discord. I also don't understand why you see this as a downside of AP Caller + Discords exclusively because it's the same story as with Melee + Discord. Unreal Havoc has summarised this very well in his post.

It is also true that Discords will sometimes spike on their own, mine spike on their own very often I only force spikes when they start healing too much or go on a minion raising frenzy. Thats also the reason why I fearz giving them to much other stuff like melee hexes ect.

Now, the builds you have listed all havent got a very good burst damage, they also have to gimp their bars to become callers. They dont have a ranged unblockable spike like AP Caller, they cant make a kd lock as effectively, it takes them more time to apply all the Discord requrements.
Two of these builds are also melee that means they have to run to the target first before they can assist the spike not to mention that all of those builds are very voulnerable to block, adrenaline and shout denial on top of mass hex and condition removal.
So for Discord physical builds are inferior to AP Caller.

I also dont understand why you want a team that won't spam Discord as often, I really dont.

Unreal Havoc

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09 Jul 2009 at 10:13 - 158

Another thing to think about is that damage is also caused to foes through the AoE effects of Putrid Bile and Death Nova (which supplies a condition aswell) and maybe Mark of Pain if you bring it aswell. Not to mention nobody has even taken into account any damage done by supporting henchmen or players.

You can get a cleaner spike by microing Discord but sometimes I find it more beneficial to let the heroes do their own thing unless it's a situation of urgency.

Tenebrae

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09 Jul 2009 at 13:07 - 159