What's wrong with recovery is that a spirit that doesn't do anything except make conditions expire faster CAN'T be the best choice. I understand the concept of dropping spirits in order to boost mend body and soul. I'm just not convinced that's the best spirit.

I agree, that's why I don't bother with it.

Quote: And another thing, since you mentioned dwayna's sorrow. I don't think I saw my guy cast it once. No idea what was wrong, but I'm not going to be microing dwayna's sorrow. My Mo/Me uses it like a maniac. Funny you say this because I run this on Livia and she maintains it like a trooper.

Quote:

All I know is that my MS/DB sin does incomparably more damage than my AP caller. I'm not a mathematician and I'm not going to get into why and how; the calculations are too complex anyway to work out on paper. But I see stuff dying everywhere with MS/DB. When the discord thing works, yes, stuff dies; when it doesn't work, stuff doesn't really die. The MS/DB chain is much much much harder for foes to stop. At the end of the debate, both can work, not really any dispute there, both just work in different ways and have different purposes.

Quote:

Look, I'm not bashing discord, and if you guys like it, by all means keep using it. But please stop talking as though it were the best possible hero setup, because it's not. And please stop talking as though anyone who prefers something else must be retarded. I finished every single HM challenge in the game before I ever even tried discord, and I did about 95% of it with hero-hench only. I don't think anyones retarded, if I'm quite honest I think I'm being quite respectful and trying to understand and value other opinions. I'm also trying to debate my point in a constructive manner, looking at both sides of the coin.

It's not the best hero setup, you know why? Because every area is different and requires different skills and strategies to conquer. If you want the upmost best out of your hero setup you will be constantly changing them around and switching skills to get the maximum efficiency. You would never run the exact same team build twice.

It is however the best "general" hero setup you can run that can work pretty much anywhere with little micromanagement, regardless of whether you're a caster or a physical. If you have a "general" hero setup that you think is better than Discordway, other than Sabway, or Racway (which are also both pretty good hero builds in their own rights), then please share it with us.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 17:46 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Igor clearly never mentions using Glyph of Lesser Energy for shouts. So it makes no sense as to why you say it doesn't affect shouts, anyone with half a brain already knows this. Because people are saying that they can do their BILLION DAMAGE CHAIN every 2 secs.

An ASSASSIN can't do it without running into energy problems. It costs 35 energy. Even with rank 16, AP will only return 21 energy, so you are losing 14 energy every 2 seconds.

If you add gole you had time to your chain.

People in here keep giving the best possible scenarios to AP callers and the worst possible to the melee sins.

That wont happen in real game.

In real game the AP sin caller will fare worse than you guys are claiming and the assassin will fare a bit better.

That was my point.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 18:03 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post

An ASSASSIN can't do it without running into energy problems. It costs 35 energy. Even with rank 16, AP will only return 21 energy, so you are losing 14 energy every 2 seconds.

If you add gole you had time to your chain.

If you add GoLE and take into account natural energy regeneration you don't lose any energy. The chain costs you 25 energy and you get 21 back with 4 energy regeneration per second. 1 extra second, which is normally between chains anyway while you switch targets, makes absolutely no difference.

Energy issues are nowhere near as bad as you are trying to make them out to be. Energy management skills, of which loads can be found, and high energy sets are more than enough to keep an AP caller going.

Quote:

People in here keep giving the best possible scenarios to AP callers and the worst possible to the melee sins. And you're not doing the exact opposite?

In a thread where you want to compare efficiencies do you really expect any different?

Quote:

That wont happen in real game.

In real game the AP sin caller will fare worse than you guys are claiming and the assassin will fare a bit better.

That was my point. I'm having absolutely no issues with using an Assassin AP caller in the real game. I use it quite frequently and "personally" find it faster and more efficient than running MS/DB in a Discordway setup.

That's my point.

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

05 Jul 2009 at 18:07 - 86

Your heroes and hench dont care what you use

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 18:12 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Your heroes and hench dont care what you use

Can't say I disagree.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

05 Jul 2009 at 18:39 - 88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

How is it efficient when it works slower than with a IAS? Jagged and Asuran Scan can fulfill the requirement for Discord to trigger, but it is less damage for the MS/DB to start with meaning you have to do more work on the far end of your chain which takes you longer to get to without an IAS. Not to mention I don't need to physically hit my target first to trigger Discord.

You are confused again. LESS FASTER =\= Slower . I never said you have to get on melee to trigger Discord so i dont know why you say that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

It works but nowhere near as efficiently as an AP caller when you think about the amount of quick spike damage an AP caller does to start with while fueling Discord with a hex, damage, snare, and KD lock. It takes literally just one second to cast AP and "YMLaD!" providing you're in shout range (good positioning, something I covered previously).

You still give best scenario to test on 1 target at time and thats fake. ANYwhere on GW is so BLOODY easy to bunch 3-5 enemies together and when it happens and the melee char uses his/her brain ( something that i think you tend to forget ) the damage imput can be INSANE. So please stop comparing best AP scenarios with worst melee scenarios please.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

Physically MS/DB, or any other physical build for that matter, can fuel Discord, thats not really a dispute as a monkey should understand anyone can lay a condition and hex on a target, but doing it as efficiently, especially when foes are nearing very low health is a different story. Especially seems MS/DB has to restart its chain, or pack other skills to compensate when switching targets.

Thats not a big deal , is as problematic as energy management, timing and positioning with APcaller+Discord. You lack experience here mate , i can tell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

With the style you're describing you're packing at least 5 skills, 6 if you include your IAS, AP caller can blow stuff up with just 4 giving better bar compression, and hence better efficiency. Again comparing Spike damage with good DOT ? no , dont fall on that sht again please dude , it has no use. Dont be confused again , easyness =\= efficiency .

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

Yet it is just an example. Stop claiming theorycraft on stuff that is tried and tested. Last but not least Mesmer is not the only proffession that has energy management, it was a simple point that you can spec into many different proffessions for energy, and with the right planning for the area ahead you can pack yourself some utility too. Yeah yeah whatever now you are backing up because you know im right and it slows your chain no matter what you say so YES you are theorycrafting because you are talking in "general numbers" and dont say nothing specific so no one can throw it down. I could say the same about packing skills and IMS and whatever so when you are going to start talking like that, keep in mind that any1 can also talk like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Just because something may be hard to use that doesn't mean it cannot be efective in the right hands, or the right area. This is where versatility comes into play. Thats what ppl who uses brain knows and some others dont , thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Gluph of Lesser Energy has a 1 second cast time. So how is it only half the time taking one second to cast? You misread again , im not talking about Gole , im talking about making a fake "best scenario" because the chain doesnt last the same, is not the same 26 HM foes or lvl 30 , so chain time is not 3sec ( never ) or whatever numbers you say , not even 60% of the times. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I disagree that it requires 0 skill. I see it as more of a build that is very easy to pick up and play but has alot more depth to it in the hands of an experienced player. I said ALMOST , please dont misread , and no ; the diff between an AP caller+Discordway on a normal player and on an experienced player is far from big , thats why is popular. Thats why sht like ursan was popular , this is the same sht , diff name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Umm what?

Yes , good smiley , it reads : confused : haha . Dont worry , it happens.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 18:47 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

And you're not doing the exact opposite?

In a thread where you want to compare efficiencies do you really expect any different?
No.

I'm not saying that.

All I'm saying is that
a) discord is efficient with physical heroes, because discords work well enough without an caller;

b) even in the case of an ASSASSIN (which is the best, by far, AP caller of any physicals) using the assassin as melee with discords has few or none disadvantages;

c) you will be hardly pressed to find a h/h build that works better than discord for physicals (not saying it is impossible, it is possible in some situations).

People just jumped and keep saying "NONONO discord without a caller sucks".

And the base argument is "because melee is melee so they have to be frontline and its safer to be far away from the enemy".

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 19:16 - 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post

You are confused again. LESS FASTER =\= Slower . I never said you have to get on melee to trigger Discord so i dont know why you say that.

So where's your condition coming from if you use your melee? Micro of a Necro then force a cover? If you don't, and impose conditions yourself then you have to land a physical hit, and if you don't land any physical hits, where is your damage over time coming from to compensate for lack of using a caller spike assist? Your whole arguement is on the basis of DOT from MS/DB vs the spike of AP Caller, if you are not hitting with melee you are not doing any damage, there fore you are relying more on heroes to do your work and being less sufficient and efficient.

Quote:

If this is your playing style why are you even running Discordway? You should be running Sabway to take advantage of the wider AoE damage it can offer due to less attribute spread.

Quote:

Thats not a big deal , is as problematic as energy management, timing and positioning with APcaller+Discord. You lack experience here mate , i can tell.

Hardly, I've played Sin as my main since Factions release so I have more than enough experience on the melee side of playing an Assassin. Energy management, or even the time to use it on an AP caller, is nowhere near as big a problem as you even try to make it out to be, you can easily target switch while you activate whatever energy manegement you bring then get straight into your spike.

Quote:

Again comparing Spike damage with good DOT ? no , dont fall on that sht again please dude , it has no use. Dont be confused again , easyness =\= efficiency. You don't need damage over time if you know how to use a AP caller with Discordway properly. Damage over time is only beneficial when stuff isn't dying fast, and if it isn't dying fast you're not running the build right.

Quote:

Yeah yeah whatever now you are backing up because you know im right and it slows your chain no matter what you say so YES you are theorycrafting because you are talking in "general numbers" and dont say nothing specific so no one can throw it down. I could say the same about packing skills and IMS and whatever so when you are going to start talking like that, keep in mind that any1 can also talk like that.

Quote:

You misread again , im not talking about Gole , im talking about making a fake "best scenario" because the chain doesnt last the same, is not the same 26 HM foes or lvl 30 , so chain time is not 3sec ( never ) or whatever numbers you say , not even 60% of the times. Period. Which is why you can never pinpoint specifics, and why I never have, as you try and claim people should to verify they aren't theorycrafting (hey I use Discordway, how am I theorycrafting over a build I actually use? Oxymoron much?). Every area is different and needs to be approached differently. I'm well aware of it.

If you find fulfilling requirements for energy management a problem (I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to know what you're facing in the area you're going into and know how to adjust your build accordingly, right?), or find using it hard, that's not really my problem.

Quote:

I said ALMOST , please dont misread , and no ; the diff between an AP caller+Discordway on a normal player and on an experienced player is far from big , thats why is popular. Thats why sht like ursan was popular , this is the same sht , diff name. Who said the difference was big? I said there was more depth to it for the more experienced player. There's a pretty big differenece between your assumption and my statement.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 19:23 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

a) discord is efficient with physical heroes, because discords work well enough without an caller;

No one is disputing that you can use Discordway with physicals, we've been over this already. The big deal here seems to be quick spike or damage over time? Some of us dont see the need for damage over time, and some of us feel it is nessecary incase you fail with your spike.

Quote:

b) even in the case of an ASSASSIN (which is the best, by far, AP caller of any physicals) using the assassin as melee with discords has few or none disadvantages;

There's pros and cons to anything you run. Doesn't matter what it is everything has a counter.

Quote:

c) you will be hardly pressed to find a h/h build that works better than discord for physicals (not saying it is impossible, it is possible in some situations). Personally I think Sabway works just fine for physicals, I preffered using that with my MS/DB SY Sin than Discordway.

Quote:

People just jumped and keep saying "NONONO discord without a caller sucks".

And the base argument is "because melee is melee so they have to be frontline and its safer to be far away from the enemy". It's more the ease of use, quick spike damage with utility, and less messing around with positioning, really.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 19:44 - 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

With discords+physicals I've 2 different ways of killing - the spike (which physicals can also do, since they have strong 1 foe damage) and AoE (all physicals have with the exception of Para and then you have the odd mop).

Quote:

Personally I think Sabway works just fine for physicals, I preffered using that with my MS/DB SY Sin than Discordway. From my experience it is slower and what it adds is more of the same - physical based damage with some splinter - meaning when they can counter/slow physical damage I've hardly any backup but SS (SS is slow). Discord offers me an additional path. And I can easily call one target for discords and henchs and go kill someone else on my own.

Quote:

It's more the ease of use, quick spike damage with utility, and less messing around with positioning, really. Basically that can be used for any ranged char...

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 20:00 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post

You can easily get some AoE out of MoP from throwing it on a Necros bar, the minions and EVAS will make good use of it. If you're a Necromancer you can throw it on as your cover hex and watch mobs explode.

Sure physicals can spike, but the difference is the nature, and compression, of it.

Quote:

Let's be realistic with this, no matter what you throw on the Necros bars they have another 7 skills that will be used as and when no matter what they are. The key is trying to synergise them.

Doesn't matter if the skills they're using are Restoration or Curses they will still use them, the difference is what they are using them for and is that purpose beneficial to what you're trying to achieve.

Quote:

From my experience it is slower and what it adds is more of the same - physical based damage with some splinter - meaning when they can counter/slow physical damage I've hardly any backup but SS (SS is slow). Discord offers me an additional path. And I can easily call one target for discords and henchs and go kill someone else on my own. But then you are not doing what the AP caller does, adding damage to the Discord spike and defeating the purpose of running Discord in the first place.

I didn't really find Sabway slow, it is slower than Discord, but suit physicals with good AoE alot better in my opinion.

Quote: Thing is that in fact you agree with me.

You understand that discord heroes can in fact be used with physicals and the caller isn't needed for discord to work.

You understand and agree that the end result will be similar, only the way you get there and the play style is different.

I'm not telling you "YOU NOOB STOP PLAYING AP CALLERS CAUSE THEY SUXX".

I know that AP callers will work very well with casters and know it can work with an assassin. If you start using it with other physicals I'll deeply disagree because in that case using the physicals as physicals will be much more efficient.

You don't use a second restoration necro. Most people use 2 necro/resto. You will a curse necro and add several curses, like MOP if needs be. Other people will say that will reduce the number of discord casts.

I think u misunderstood my point - my point was: while a caller can make it go smoother (especially in the first mob or so), discordway is strong because NECROMANCER HEROES RULE COMPARED TO OTHER HEROES, due to SR, and heroes are good at spamming, so they spam hexes and discords really well regardless.

I made this thread because some people in that thread about "what heroes for an assassin" were saying "play caller and discord or play melee with sabs", and "nonono you can't play discord without a caller" and in my experience those are all lies.

Quote:

Basically that can be used for any ranged char... I can't say I've tried but I'm not sure ranged physicals can output as much damage as either melee physicals or an AP caller.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 20:27 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

SNIP

I can't say I've tried but I'm not sure ranged physicals can output as much damage as either melee physicals or an AP caller. Enough damage and more utility than physicals to make for slightly less damage.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 20:42 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post

Thing is that in fact you agree with me.

You understand that discord heroes can in fact be used with physicals and the caller isn't needed for discord to work.

You understand and agree that the end result will be similar, only the way you get there and the play style is different.

I'm not telling you "YOU NOOB STOP PLAYING AP CALLERS CAUSE THEY SUXX".

I know that AP callers will work very well with casters and know it can work with an assassin. If you start using it with other physicals I'll deeply disagree because in that case using the physicals as physicals will be much more efficient.

So why are we debating when we're pretty much saying the same thing?

Quote:

You don't use a second restoration necro. Most people use 2 necro/resto. You will a curse necro and add several curses, like MOP if needs be. Other people will say that will reduce the number of discord casts.

I think u misunderstood my point - my point was: while a caller can make it go smoother (especially in the first mob or so), discordway is strong because NECROMANCER HEROES RULE COMPARED TO OTHER HEROES, due to SR, and heroes are good at spamming, so they spam hexes and discords really well regardless. I dont think I ever saw you make that point, you're stating the obvious though.

Quote: No one disagrees....

Quote:

I made this thread because some people in that thread about "what heroes for an assassin" were saying "play caller and discord or play melee with sabs", and "nonono you can't play discord without a caller" and in my experience those are all lies. Or like I said before, roll both in the same party and get the best of both worlds having one co-ordinated for spiking while the other focuses on mass AoE and buffing a melee physical. I think some people forget you have another 4 slots for party members in most areas.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

05 Jul 2009 at 20:45 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by improvel

You understand that discord heroes can in fact be used with physicals and the caller isn't needed for discord to work.

I made this thread because some people in that thread about "what heroes for an assassin" were saying "play caller and discord or play melee with sabs", and "nonono you can't play discord without a caller" and in my experience those are all lies. No one disagrees... No one is saying you can't play discord without a caller.

The thing is, what people are saying is that, if you play melee, you're better off with some other build. Do I know what that "better build is?" Not quite. But it IS trivial to improve discordway by taking non-discord heroes.

For example, simple substitution on your discord/resto for instead, OotV/resto not only adds far more damage than discord but provides strong party healing as well.

Note I'm not saying melee sucks with discordway. Not at all. I'm not even saying melee + discord is weaker than discord + caller. These are two seperate arguments, and you seem to be confusing them.

I hope this clears up some confusion.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 20:55 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc View Post

Note I'm not saying melee sucks with discordway. Not at all. I'm not even saying melee + discord is weaker than discord + caller. These are two seperate arguments, and you seem to be confusing them.

Do I know what that "better build is?" Not quite. But it IS trivial to improve discordway by taking non-discord heroes.

I'm sorry but ur posts fooled me.

Must be the part where I say something like adding something like a smiting monk...

In the areas you have 2 decent healers henchmen is easy to swap the resto healer for some other hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

So why are we debating when we're pretty much saying the same thing?

Dunno. You could have said in ur first post "yes, it is just about as efficient, although assassin caller is possible too" or "I prefer sabway" or whatever.

Actually you said that, but you just assumed I was trying to force people into or out of something, or saying that callers sucked.

Quote: Let's be realistic with this, no matter what you throw on the Necros bars they have another 7 skills that will be used as and when no matter what they are. The key is trying to synergise them.

Doesn't matter if the skills they're using are Restoration or Curses they will still use them, the difference is what they are using them for and is that purpose beneficial to what you're trying to achieve.

And some curses easily act as "protection", minimizing need for heal, so easily interchangeable with restoration heals.

Quote:

I dont think I ever saw you make that point, you're stating the obvious though. I didn't cause it is obvious. And if I didn't believe in the necro power I would say "Use this other build or that instead of idiot discordway" wouldn't I?

Quote:

Or like I said before, roll both in the same party and get the best of both worlds having one co-ordinated for spiking while the other focuses on mass AoE and buffing a melee physical. I think some people forget you have another 4 slots for party members in most areas. I generally do that, have 2 or 3 necro heroes when I play with other person (which is a large portion of the time) or with 7 heroes from another account, and use the other slots for other heroes like paras.

But H/H is a bit limited in term of choices since most henchmen builds are really bad (especially in prophecies or factions).

I still believe that for H/H, when playing with a physical, in most situations (especially in prophecies and factions areas where monk hechmen have crap like healing breeze), the discordway is simple faster and more robust.

Just to remind you guys, my opening words:

Quote:

Original posted by me

Apparently some player seems to believe that Discordway is only good when you run an AP caller build and that heroes wont use discord properly without it.

That is incorrect.

Heroes will attack any target you call, regardless of you casting hexes and conditions there or not.

Discord heroes are one of the most powerful heroes setup for 1 man and a trio of those necros are still a great addition to a 2 players team.

Of course you can't use the PvX wiki build though.

You will have to build a trio of necros that will cast hexes/conditions, provide protection and healing and a minion wall.

The key is to have hexes and conditions that are useful and affect more than one target. To clarify, the bit you can't use the PvX wiki build, it is in the absence of a caller.

And the conclusion of my op:

Quote:

Originally posted by ME

The main points are: once the hexes/conditions/enchantments are set discord works the same and the physical damage provided by the player will be the same or greater than the AP caller. Any hexes/conditions you cast are a bonus. The fact some, if not all, of the physical characters can run SY! is a boon not to be sneezed at.

In conclusion, discordway can be used with no loss by a physical character. You can use the above builds, with minor area related alterations (or even change the MM or the Restoration necro for some other char - use ur best judgment to which one is the least useful), to do the missions in HM and do your vanquishers, fast and easily (it helps if you know what a physical character, especially a melee one, are supposed to do and how to play it). Sincerely this seems awfully similar to what you traversc and you Unreal Havoc said in your last post.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

05 Jul 2009 at 21:38 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

Once again , you are just making that up , from where the hell did the bolded part come from ? you are just misunderstanding the things i say , blurring it , turning it over upside down and making "general cases" on your on dude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

If this is your playing style why are you even running Discordway? You should be running Sabway to take advantage of the wider AoE damage it can offer due to less attribute spread.

Another thing you are inventing , WHEN did i say that i USUALLY run discord way dude ? please stop arguing about something i never said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

Hardly, I've played Sin as my main since Factions release so I have more than enough experience on the melee side of playing an Assassin.

I highly doubt that and if its so , you played gimmick build so much that you forgot about 80% of that experience you claim to have but go ahead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

You don't need damage over time if you know how to use a AP caller with Discordway properly. Damage over time is only beneficial when stuff isn't dying fast, and if it isn't dying fast you're not running the build right.

Once again , WHERE did i say that you NEED DOT when playing as an AP Caller ?. DOT is ALWAYS good because heres a tip , you are not killing 8 mobs at 1 time with an AP caller , you only kill 1. Thats because is a spike build and dot build tend to leave the entire foe group on low HP at the same time ( for god sake i cant believe i did have to tell you this ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Which is why you can never pinpoint specifics, and why I never have, as you try and claim people should to verify they aren't theorycrafting (hey I use Discordway, how am I theorycrafting over a build I actually use? Oxymoron much?). Oh yes you are doing it all the time not about the build itself ( no one said that lol ) , because you are comparing things and creating best scenarios to Discordway and worst scenarios to the rest and thats a fake theorycrafting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

If you find fulfilling requirements for energy management a problem (I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to know what you're facing in the area you're going into and know how to adjust your build accordingly, right?), or find using it hard, that's not really my problem. Nah , saying that isnt going to take away that you said "several useful utility skills in the Mesmer line that allow you to replenish your energy in under a second." to apply to an AP chain without losing time , speed or damage and we all saw that you were sellin air dude

. So now please show some of that A/H build with an specific skill that works in general , not an "optional random underasec cast e-management" because that is selling air my friend.

Quote: Don't get your point. No sarcasm.

Life bringing said

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Who said the difference was big? I said there was more depth to it for the more experienced player. There's a pretty big differenece between your assumption and my statement. Nor skill , no depth , that just an illusion mate , same like UB group builds.

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Fissure of Woe

[LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*]

N/P

05 Jul 2009 at 21:39 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Hopefully all the people that are arguing for the insane speed of Disco kills are all microing Disco, right?
You do know that without doing that a lot of the things said here are just a nice theory? You actually have a point. Without microing Discord, shit won't die instantly. You'll probably stand around for upwards of 3 seconds before all three necros decide to cast Discord. However, when playing with something like a Sidewinder mouse, discord is lulzy.

The great thing about the AP caller, as mentioned before, is the 4 open slots. usually i bring one hex(something like parasitic bond because it's cheap and recharges quickly), one condition(enfeeble or similar), and the last two slots can be anything thats needed for the area. The hex and condition are for the off chance that AP gets removed before the target dies. This is only a precaution, because if AP is getting removed enough to cause problems at every mob, you shouldnt be using Discord in said area.

Overall, an AP IS faster. If you're playing discord right, you won't have enough time to get this "sustained" damage you're talking about. Usually when playing a critscythe i'll get two swings in(including WS) and the target will fall dead. In the meantime, you're running back and forth wasting time trying to get from enemy to enemy to kill it.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 22:01 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

This is only a precaution, because if AP is getting removed enough to cause problems at every mob, you shouldnt be using Discord in said area. While you have very good points, this one isn't exactly accurate. If AP is getting removed enough you shouldn't be using AP not discord :P

Why?

First discord can work without hexes, it needs a condition and either a hex or an enchantment. Ok, hexes are easier to control.

But that is why having multiple foe affecting hexes and multiple fast recharging ones gets useful. Barbs, shadow of fear, etc, might not be as good for the AP caller play style, but for a DoT melee build that uses discord will do just fine.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 22:16 - 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Random gibberish. Dude if you can't read clearly between the lines and see what I'm saying then I can't help you.

Oh and mocking people and saying they lack experience based over what builds they currently run isn't going to help your debate any more.

If you can't keep it civil, and constructive, then don't bother.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 22:19 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

While you have very good points, this one isn't exactly accurate. If AP is getting removed enough you shouldn't be using AP not discord :P

Why?

First discord can work without hexes, it needs a condition and either a hex or an enchantment. Ok, hexes are easier to control.

But that is why having multiple foe affecting hexes and multiple fast recharging ones gets useful. Barbs, shadow of fear, etc, might not be as good for the AP caller play style, but for a DoT melee build that uses discord will do just fine. Or just use Enfeebling Blood? That way the Discord Necros can spam away at whatever you call that's affected.

Paul Dawg

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2008

House of Myrthe (HoMe)

05 Jul 2009 at 22:55 - 103

I was responding to Igor, who WAS talking as though I were retarded.

And yes, of course I agree with you that there is no single hero setup that will be the best combination in every conceivable situation. But other people have been arguing as though discord is just that. And I'm sure the pvxwiki team can be fine-tuned. But still... Last night I vanqed Maishang Hills with it, and that's not a particularly difficult zone. Yes, I was able to finish it, but not especially quickly (ca. 40 minutes), and I wiped when I faced Seacrash. AP was a waste against him, because he's a boss; he can't be KD-ed, so EVAS was kinda meh; and his buddy the island guardian heals him, so he doesn't go down right away, even with three necroes spamming discord. Meanwhile he pelts the party with his AoE attacks.

The point isn't so much that PI and SY! would have handled him better (though they certainly would have), but that he doesn't present problems that I would consider all that unusual, and the discord team was really kinda mediocre against him.

As for your question about which heroes I'd rather use instead--I've been toying with the idea of posting my various hero builds, since (if I say so myself) I think they're all better than the stuff marked "great" on pvxwiki, some of them substantially so. I recently gave a new spirit spam hero in a different thread (who by the way also takes out Seacrash in seconds).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I don't think anyones retarded, if I'm quite honest I think I'm being quite respectful and trying to understand and value other opinions. I'm also trying to debate my point in a constructive manner, looking at both sides of the coin.

It's not the best hero setup, you know why? Because every area is different and requires different skills and strategies to conquer. If you want the upmost best out of your hero setup you will be constantly changing them around and switching skills to get the maximum efficiency. You would never run the exact same team build twice.

It is however the best "general" hero setup you can run that can work pretty much anywhere with little micromanagement, regardless of whether you're a caster or a physical. If you have a "general" hero setup that you think is better than Discordway, other than Sabway, or Racway (which are also both pretty good hero builds in their own rights), then please share it with us.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 23:15 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

Or just use Enfeebling Blood? That way the Discord Necros can spam away at whatever you call that's affected.

usually i bring one hex(something like parasitic bond because it's cheap and recharges quickly), one condition(enfeeble or similar), and the last two slots can be anything thats needed for the area. The hex and condition are for the off chance that AP gets removed before the target dies. This is only a precaution, because if AP is getting removed enough to cause problems at every mob, you shouldnt be using Discord in said area. He/she didn't mention any backup curser. Fail to see how Enfeebling blood will solve lack of hex or AP.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 23:15 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg View Post

I was responding to Igor, who WAS talking as though I were retarded.

You'll find he is retarded. Sorry Igor <3

Quote:

And yes, of course I agree with you that there is no single hero setup that will be the best combination in every conceivable situation. But other people have been arguing as though discord is just that. And I'm sure the pvxwiki team can be fine-tuned. But still... Last night I vanqed Maishang Hills with it, and that's not a particularly difficult zone. Yes, I was able to finish it, but not especially quickly (ca. 40 minutes), and I wiped when I faced Seacrash. AP was a waste against him, because he's a boss; he can't be KD-ed, so EVAS was kinda meh; and his buddy the island guardian heals him, so he doesn't go down right away, even with three necroes spamming discord. Meanwhile he pelts the party with his AoE attacks.

The point isn't so much that PI and SY! would have handled him better (though they certainly would have), but that he doesn't present problems that I would consider all that unusual, and the discord team was really kinda mediocre against him.

What else was you running? Was it just Hero & hench? Or did you bring players aswell?

I ran Sabway with a Stunning Strike spear build instead when I did that vanquish while my mate ran Discordway and we took him down that way.

Quote:

As for your question about which heroes I'd rather use instead--I've been toying with the idea of posting my various hero builds, since (if I say so myself) I think they're all better than the stuff marked "great" on pvxwiki, some of them substantially so. I recently gave a new spirit spam hero in a different thread (who by the way also takes out Seacrash in seconds). I'd love to see them, not out of doubt, out of genuine interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Don't get your point. No sarcasm.

He/she didn't mention any backup curser. Fail to see how Enfeebling blood will solve lack of hex or AP. It was in reference to your last sentence. Spreading a hex and condition for Discord among a mob so they can spam Discord without you.

Enfeebling Blood is a hex that affects nearby foes and causes weakness. (I'm assuming you know I'm just clarifying).

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

05 Jul 2009 at 23:20 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Dude if you can't read clearly between the lines and see what I'm saying then I can't help you.

Oh and mocking people and saying they lack experience based over what builds they currently run isn't going to help your debate any more.

If you can't keep it civil then don't bother. Read between the lines ... see ? that your problem , i say " A B " and you argue with me like i said "A B C" . Word is cheap , you should start saying somethin specific instead general speaking , otherwise is like saying nothing.

Also saying you played bla bla bla from the start doesnt make it true and if someone thinks that you LACK of experience on Assassin Melee that just an OPINION , im not insulting you but as always , i say "A B" and you understand "C" .

Keep it civil yeah , because now ( you edit some post ) calling ppl that doesnt do what you think "not smart enough" or just guessing they arent skilled enough is being polite , right , ok mate. Ofc after this post you are gonna take it all as an insult and or surprise me by accusing me of somethin i never did or said so please , dont bother to answer , i wont bother anymore either if you dont.

If ppl keep saying "general" things and fake times this is getting nowhere , im just LMAO just the way some of them talk like APcaller makes discord go 300% faster or something that without it . Amazed , just amazed.

PD:BTW who the hell let that Troll Igor out of the cage again ?

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 23:28 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post

Y
Enfeebling Blood is a hex that affects nearby foes and causes weakness. (I'm assuming you know I'm just clarifying). No. It is a spell that causes a condition. It isn't an hex so it wont proc for discord hex clause.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 23:31 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post

No. It is a spell that causes a condition. It isn't an hex so it wont proc for discord hex clause.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood My mistake, sorry. I don't know how I got that in my head.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

06 Jul 2009 at 00:04 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post

Read between the lines ... see ? that your problem , i say " A B " and you argue with me like i said "A B C" . Word is cheap , you should start saying somethin specific instead general speaking , otherwise is like saying nothing.

Ok...

This is pointless and getting us nowhere.

Specific enough for you?

Quote:

Also saying you played bla bla bla from the start doesnt make it true and if someone thinks that you LACK of experience on Assassin Melee that just an OPINION , im not insulting you but as always , i say "A B" and you understand "C" .

Yet you assume with no evidence to back it up. Lol at having a 32 month old Assassin as my main character that has absolutely no experience playing melee, the thought of it.

For the record I am not, and most certainly do not claim to be, the most knowledgeable player in Guild Wars, but that doesn't mean I am absolutely clueless about anything or have no idea whatsoever how to play at the very least my main class. I'm not perfect, and I even make mistakes, that doesn't mean I lack experience.

Quote:

Keep it civil yeah , because now ( you edit some post ) calling ppl that doesnt do what you think "not smart enough" or just guessing they arent skilled enough is being polite , right , ok mate. Ofc after this post you are gonna take it all as an insult and or surprise me by accusing me of somethin i never did or said so please , dont bother to answer , i wont bother anymore either if you dont. Ok and where did I say no one was smart enough or skilled enough? Show me where I have directly said anyone here doesn't have any skill or intelligence? I try not to insult people where I can help it, it rarely helps anything.

Have you ever thought that stuff that has been removed was removed because the poster felt it was inappropiate and unnessacary?

If you like I won't look back on things I post and think, hmm maybe that's wrong to post I shouldn't say that, and just post whatever and have no consideration for anyone at all.

Quote: I never understood people who use MoP on Discord...

It's a 20 second rehcarge hex after all, youre killing pretty fast even with physical as a caller so the hexed target will be down before MoP deals any significant damage.

Quote:

If ppl keep saying "general" things and fake times this is getting nowhere. It's taken you 6 pages to work that one out?

Ok.

Quote:

PD:BTW who the hell let that Troll Igor out of the cage again ? Not guilty.

Lastly this is going way off topic.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

06 Jul 2009 at 09:58 - 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post

I know that AP callers will work very well with casters and know it can work with an assassin. If you start using it with other physicals I'll deeply disagree because in that case using the physicals as physicals will be much more efficient.

What about Dervs?

As physicals they are inferior to Critscythes, WE Scythewars and even SS Scytherits oO but they do better job as support characters providing backup heals/buffs.

So nop, I think AP caller on Derv would be more efficient.

Quote:

I think u misunderstood my point - my point was: while a caller can make it go smoother (especially in the first mob or so), discordway is strong because NECROMANCER HEROES RULE COMPARED TO OTHER HEROES, due to SR, and heroes are good at spamming, so they spam hexes and discords really well regardless.
Thing is, why make them have to cast hexes/condis if you can apply those quicker while they Discord away.

Also, try to keybind Discord for best results.

Quote:

I made this thread because some people in that thread about "what heroes for an assassin" were saying "play caller and discord or play melee with sabs", and "nonono you can't play discord without a caller" and in my experience those are all lies.
You cant deny playing with a caller is so much better, at least because you have a better view of things for starters. >_>

AngeliqueSynner

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Florida, USA

Sacred Storm [Strm]

06 Jul 2009 at 14:23 - 111

I call for a discord team with Icy Veins and "YMLaD!"
With a back up trigger of Pain Inverter and "Finish Him!"
Icy Veins lasts longer [25+ seconds at 9 S.R.] than A.P. [14 seconds at 12 D.A.] also I.V. recharges in 5 seconds. So you needn't fear hex removal as much. :]
And I just have a fetish for it. :]

It works just fine that way, so the effective answer is: No, Discordway doesn't need AP to function effectively. :]

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

06 Jul 2009 at 16:05 - 112

It also has low-ass damage and doesnt recharge all of your skills... >_>

Also, who cares about long duration when you kill in ~3 seconds max anyway and then all of your skills are recharges anyway.

AngeliqueSynner

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Florida, USA

Sacred Storm [Strm]

06 Jul 2009 at 16:40 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

It also has low-ass damage and doesnt recharge all of your skills... >_>

Also, who cares about long duration when you kill in ~3 seconds max anyway and then all of your skills are recharges anyway. I know it doesn't recharge my skills.
But as for damage. It's more helpful in that department than AP. :]
And besides.
1 - 2 - dead.
The only time I have to use more than the first 2 skills on my bar, per single enemy, is when there's a boss.
So recharge doesn't really catch me as a sell point. :]

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

06 Jul 2009 at 18:13 - 114

Quote:

blah blah blah... zomg lsoe so mucho time using e-mange skill!!11 BS dude. E-management takes ~1-2 seconds every ~10-20 seconds. Compare that with the time wasted running from target to target in melee. ~(1-2 seconds every 3-4~ seconds) Not even close. The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty mind-blowing.

Besides, MS/DB is a terrible melee choice, even if you do choose melee. u shouldn't even have enough time to use MS since things should be dead before then. SA or critscythe FTW.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

06 Jul 2009 at 18:19 - 115

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngeliqueSynner

I know it doesn't recharge my skills.
But as for damage. It's more helpful in that department than AP. :]
And besides.
1 - 2 - dead.
The only time I have to use more than the first 2 skills on my bar, per single enemy, is when there's a boss.
So recharge doesn't really catch me as a sell point. :]
1-2-dead maybe but then you wait for ymlad to recharge and have your next spike without the 80 armor ignoring damage and a kd. Not good.

You also cant bring evas and will have most spikes without FH! and FH! saved loads of time.

AngeliqueSynner

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008