Does discordway needs an AP caller?

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

04 Jul 2009 at 18:09 - 41
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Nope you just cant run physical professions.

I been running a physical prof for almost four years tyvm.


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And everyone confirming stuff doesn't make it true. We had good players swearing against the power of the ER healer. You Q.Q'ing doesnt make it wrong either.

Quote: Yeah, if you want Carpal.

Also, that's not even true. For N/A, for example, you can put off killing your target for more MoP goodness. Also you're assuming heroes are wasting your time when they're not discording. No. They are MMing, healing, protting, etc, which is sweet because having a huge-ass minion army while simultaneously not dying owns your face.

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Someone stating that an assassin AP caller will deal more damage than a Moebius or Scythe sin isn't exactly a great recommendation. Do your math and you will see that in the same period of time max rank AP deals more damage in other words it has higher burst damage and thats all that matters in a spike build.
On practice you can also remember the fact that it doesnt have to come to melee range and has more utility.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

04 Jul 2009 at 19:37 - 42
Why Super Igor is out of his cage again?

And when will he be perma banned? I thought he has 3 temp bans already.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

04 Jul 2009 at 19:50 - 43
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Originally Posted by traversc View Post
No it is not, and that pretty much just shows YOUR own fail. On my necro, I cast the full chain all the time (AP YMLAD, EVAS, FH!). When I tried micro, I am usually not able to cast the full chain before the target dies.

Now math: 300 damage (micro'ed) + 250 (shouts) + hench dmg, random AoE/degen etc. is already enough damage to kill most things. In other words, I wouldn't even be able to cast EVAS.

This is not theorycraft, but logic to back up experience. In other words, if you have trouble killing without micro-ing, YOU fail not discordway. Reminds me of the sweet times that I dropped a hex and a condition and then stood around waiting for my guys to finally get around to dropping that Disco.
If you want the most effective results - you are going to micro Disco.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

04 Jul 2009 at 20:28 - 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
If you want the most effective results - you are going to micro Disco.
Reminds me of the sweet times that I dropped a hex and a condition and then stood around waiting for my guys to finally get around to dropping that Disco. Seems like you're not only not playing an AP caller, doing at least 250 damage per target, 450 if you bother to EVAS, but also not calling your target. News flash: You're doing it very wrong, which is probably why you think discord sucks. The fact that you havent' figured this out yet, is only a testament to human ingenuity.

Micro-ing discord is just too powerful, and takes away from the other main functions of the discorders (building a huge ass minion army) which is anti-awesome.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

04 Jul 2009 at 21:47 - 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
No it is not, and that pretty much just shows YOUR own fail. On my necro, I cast the full chain all the time (AP YMLAD, EVAS, FH!). When I tried micro, I am usually not able to cast the full chain before the target dies.

Now math: 300 damage (micro'ed) + 250 (shouts) + hench dmg, random AoE/degen etc. is already enough damage to kill most things. In other words, I wouldn't even be able to cast EVAS.
On my necro I can do full chain, np.

News flash this is about running Discord with a physical a profession.

People say it is inefficient without an AP caller and they say for example a sin should be an AP caller in that situation.

I say it is far from inefficient and given the choice between running AP caller with a sin or MS/DB and even scythe sin, the MS is at least as efficient as the AP caller.

I'm also saying that discord is still one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, h/h build for a melee. Some builds in certain areas, might get close to it or even exceed it (not by much), but discord is still a force to be reckoned in the world of the H/H builds.



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Except it does.

I've given MS/DB all considerations and benefits of the doubt. Not even taking into consideration the fact that it is melee, MS/DB takes 1.75 seconds to pull of asura scan + 1st hit. That's ~100 damage and a hex. AP caller takes 1.5 seconds to pull of ~150 damage (250 incl. DW) as well as knockdown. When you take into consideration the fact that melee has to run from target to target on the order of ~1 second, there is just no contest.

Besides, if MS/DB is as good as you say it is, your target shouldn't even be lasting long enough to rotate MS/DB. Doesn't that make the entire build, moot? First do you know assassin can land a condition on their first hit? And even if don't want a leading you can have withering aura. There both. Or are you ignoring these repeatedly?


Again you choose to ignore that, 1) discord heroes will do other stuff, so they arent always discording, and 2) a MS/DB doesn't need discords to kill.

He can kill on his own opposed to the AP caller (especially as a sin AP caller, Caster ones can do it and necros will certain).

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I have yet to see any attempt to prove MS/DB does more damage. It is not enough to say "lol rotating MS/DB on MoD gives 200 DPS". Formally speaking, you need to account for the fact that MS/DB is melee, the fact that it's easier to shutdown, the fact that it doesn't knocklock (unlike AP caller), the fact that your target should be dead before you even get to rotate MS/DB, the fact that you need to divert attributes/skill slot on heroes to buff up MS/DB to anything reasonable. Again, if your discords are performing other functions, the MS/DB is still there dishing damage. Loads of it.

Club of thousand bears, Brawling head but, etc.

And is the knock really that useful considering your target die so fast?

Save yourselves will free slots on the second restoration healer. More curses will also boost defense levels.

I don't know what game you are playing, but in mine enemies shoot back and they actually run faster than you, so it is not like you can kill one, back track, kill another and so on. In the second or 2 you take to kill one target the enemies will do quite decent damage.

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Even taking ALL of that OUT of account, I've already shown as per above that an AP caller can output more DPS than MS/DB. Sorry, you cannot just ignore solid math and reasoning and expect to have a valid argument.

Any valid reply will take into account ALL the downsides I've listed above in attempting to prove the superiority of MS/DB. An assassin AP caller doesn't have Soul Reaping. That means it will be hard pressed in energy. A chain is 35 energy. AP at 16 only gives 21 back. Losing 14 energy every 2 secs will be fun even on 4 pipes.

And mate, this isn't about the N/A, nor about the N/A efficiency to the MS/DB.

It is about ASSASSIN AP CALLER vs ASSASSIN MS/DB or SCYTHE SIN and PHYSICAL WITH DISCORD VS PHYSICALS WITHOUT DISCORD H/H TEAMS.

N/A is one of the best builds out there, H/H or otherwise.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

04 Jul 2009 at 22:07 - 46
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Again you choose to ignore that, 1) discord heroes will do other stuff, so they arent always discording,
What does that have to do with anything? If this is about melee sin vs. AP caller BOTH with discordway, then heroes not discording affects both versions the same.

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and 2) a MS/DB doesn't need discords to kill...
Utterly irrelevant. A monk can kill on it's own by wanding shit to death. Discordway is a TEAM build.

Quote: False. Pure rhetorical.

As if a wanding monk deals as close as the damage a MS/DB sin deals.

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Again, if your discords are performing other functions, the MS/DB is still there dishing damage. Loads of it. You are assuming that an AP caller has downtime. It does not. An AP caller will always "be there dishing damage" just like MS/DB.

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That means it will be hard pressed in energy. A chain is 35 energy. AP at 16 only gives 21 back. Losing 14 energy every 2 secs will be fun even on 4 pipes. There is no energy problem.

A full chain isn't needed all the time.

A sin has 4 pips e-regen just like a caster. A sin has a higher level Promise which gives back more energy than casters. Furthermore, almost EVERY secondary option has strong e-management options.

A sin is arguably BETTER at AP calling than other casters (besides of course the necromancer.)

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

04 Jul 2009 at 22:31 - 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
What does that have to do with anything? If this is about melee sin vs. AP caller BOTH with discordway, then heroes not discording affects both versions the same.
Exactly.

Now what are your hereos casting? I see 2 necro/rt healers on one version and I see curses and conditions on the other.

So casting shutdown curses that cause conditions/hexes is more efficient than healing, as the targets will be setup for the next round of discords.

This eliminate the setup speed argument.

If you heroes aren't casting discord what are they doing? Good chance it is healing since they have loads of those. If they are healing maybe they are taking damage. SY! can be useful there!


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Utterly irrelevant. A monk can kill on it's own by wanding shit to death. Discordway is a TEAM build.
You are assuming that an AP caller has downtime. It does not. An AP caller will always "be there dishing damage" just like MS/DB.



There is no energy problem.

A full chain isn't needed all the time. So it doesn't deal 300 damage per second?

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A sin has 4 pips e-regen just like a caster. A sin has a higher level Promise which gives back more energy than casters. Furthermore, almost EVERY secondary option has strong e-management options. Can it deal with 14 energy loss every 2 seconds? And isn't 300 damage every 2 seconds 150 per second?

And don't those energy management options take time to cast, further reducing the dps?

And what about the energy needed to cast the other support skills given by those amazing 4 free slots?

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

04 Jul 2009 at 23:06 - 48
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Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
On my necro I can do full chain, np.

News flash this is about running Discord with a physical a profession.

People say it is inefficient without an AP caller and they say for example a sin should be an AP caller in that situation.

I say it is far from inefficient and given the choice between running AP caller with a sin or MS/DB and even scythe sin, the MS is at least as efficient as the AP caller.
It's not...

You have to get into melee range, you dont have kd-lock, you dont have FH!, you cant create a bunch of minion-like meatshields, you dont have as much space for utility.
In short, MS/DB cant effectively fulfill the role of a Discord caller, period.

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I'm also saying that discord is still one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, h/h build for a melee. Some builds in certain areas, might get close to it or even exceed it (not by much), but discord is still a force to be reckoned in the world of the H/H builds.

At least we made you understand this now after your 5000+ hours of playing.... >_>


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First do you know assassin can land a condition on their first hit? And even if don't want a leading you can have withering aura. There both. Or are you ignoring these repeatedly?
They can.

Asuran Scan + Sneak Attack, Asuran Scan + Black mantis ect. but the point is that they have no condition application option that will be ranged, deal 80 armor ignoring damage, kd, snare, insult at the same time and also have no recharge thanks to AP.


Quote: Again you choose to ignore that, 1) discord heroes will do other stuff, so they arent always discording, and 2) a MS/DB doesn't need discords to kill. 1) errr, you have to keep this to minimum in a good setup. Heal, pair of backup hexes and it ends there.

2) Yeah also wanna add that Discords won't go far with killing with MS/DB thats why you should not run Discord with MS/DB but run it with AP caller that goes well with the setup and kills lightning fast. duh...

Quote: He can kill on his own opposed to the AP caller (especially as a sin AP caller, Caster ones can do it and necros will certain). Take MS/DB alone, attack for ~two and a half seconds then stop, you won't be killing much. In fact AP will do more damage.


Quote: Again, if your discords are performing other functions, the MS/DB is still there dishing damage. Loads of it. Sounds slow.


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Club of thousand bears, Brawling head but, etc.
Yeah now do a kd lock with them on a full hp mob and spam your SY! at the same time! I laugh at you...


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And is the knock really that useful considering your target die so fast? Yes? Thats one of the reasons my target dies so fast. it cant heal, it cant damage, it can do nothing.
Say we face some annoying healbotn, MS/DB would have to pressure it out, AP call will just kd lock it and spike it down.

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Save yourselves will free slots on the second restoration healer. More curses will also boost defense levels. Do you actually read what I write? I think youre blind..actually the fact I have to explain you these things after you got legendary titles confirms it.

You are very unlikely to have SY! charge in the start of the fight when you are likely to get hit by various aoe ect. that means you still have to take backup restore anyway to repair the damage quickly and get spiking.
When you start spiking, SY! doesnt matter, shit drops fast.

If your setup can't live a second without SY! then youre doing it wrong...



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I don't know what game you are playing, but in mine enemies shoot back and they actually run faster than you, so it is not like you can kill one, back track, kill another and so on. In the second or 2 you take to kill one target the enemies will do quite decent damage.
Yeah because you can't kill them before they do with that gimped trash of yours...


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An assassin AP caller doesn't have Soul Reaping. That means it will be hard pressed in energy. A chain is 35 energy. AP at 16 only gives 21 back. Losing 14 energy every 2 secs will be fun even on 4 pipes. What pipes? oO


It shows that you never played AP caller on anything but you necro...
No, youre unlikely to be hard pressed on energy, with 4 pips of regen you can get allot of full chains through, when energy runs low, simply dont cast EVAS, problem solved.


For a sin, you have 9 profs to chose from, I for example use Ele secondary with GoLE for extra energy management, works wonders, I never have a slight bit of energy problem.

You can also go /Mo and /P.

Quote: You know what else adds 1 sec to your chain? Moving from target to target in melee. That's going to add way more 1 secs than GOLE.

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And mate, this isn't about the N/A, nor about the N/A efficiency to the MS/DB.


It is about ASSASSIN AP CALLER vs ASSASSIN MS/DB or SCYTHE SIN and PHYSICAL WITH DISCORD VS PHYSICALS WITHOUT DISCORD H/H TEAMS.

N/A is one of the best builds out there, H/H or otherwise.
AP caller + Discord > every other Discordway wannabe > non-discord setups. Simple.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

04 Jul 2009 at 23:22 - 49
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Originally Posted by Super Igor View Post
What pipes? oO


It shows that you never played AP caller on anything but you necro...
No, youre unlikely to be hard pressed on energy, with 4 pips of regen you can get allot of full chains through, when energy runs low, simply dont cast EVAS, problem solved.


For a sin, you have 9 profs to chose from, I for example use Ele secondary with GoLE for extra energy management, works wonders, I never have a slight bit of energy problem.
Just 2 bits out of this babble.

Gole does 0 to FH and YMLAD. You could use gole before EVAS and whatever hex but you are adding 1 sec to your chain.

EVAS is buttloads of damage.

So you come and say "LOOK MY AP CALLER DOES 300 DAMAGE PER SECOND! CAN THE MS DO THE SAME?" but after all then you say it doesn't.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

05 Jul 2009 at 00:12 - 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Just 2 bits out of this babble.

Gole does 0 to FH and YMLAD. You could use gole before EVAS and whatever hex but you are adding 1 sec to your chain.
EVAS is buttloads of damage.

So you come and say "LOOK MY AP CALLER DOES 300 DAMAGE PER SECOND! CAN THE MS DO THE SAME?" but after all then you say it doesn't. Stop being bad at math. YMLAD + FH = 250 damage every 1.5 seconds. EVAS = 200 damage in 1.75 seconds. Using EVAS does not improve your DPS, it's only if you actually have time.

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

05 Jul 2009 at 00:47 - 51
The AP caller synergises better with the disco style, than a melee.

IS it for sure, 100% guarenteed better? hmmm. pro's n cons:

Disco is a spike, spike, spike, rinse repeat build. NOT a sustained dps build

If you AP combo a target you get:
both hex + condition primer, KD's and deep wound! On demand from range AND its all ready again when the discord is recharge on your heroes. so its a kill every time disco is charged.(3 seconds per kill)
You dont need to travel between mobs, and you dont need to worry about been blocked ect.

If you run scan + cond attack: you get a fast cast hex, then your attack! if your melee you need to travel between mobs to prime them for the disco spike. (eg scan + jagged strike + wild + blossom + ms) by the time your half way thru your combo you heroes will have already spiked your target down. Now you need to move to the next foe and rinse repeat.

Disco is all about ease of use, ap caller is easier. and your combo is ready every time disco is you have to weigh up THAT vs having to move between mobs, avoid blocks, blinds, hex, conditions...even if your melee does output more damage.

(rangers have it easier with apply/barbed + scan + prepshot/sundering/penetrating/fh for example. than a melee but thats slightly off topic i think and can manage the energy much better and still output a lot of damage, compared to running ap caller on a 3 pip ranger)

Kendel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2009

05 Jul 2009 at 00:55 - 52
Wow this is getting sad...

Hope they nerf Discord, would be nice to see a major damage reduction and/or a large increase in recharge so the idiots of this thread actually have to think about how to play PvE again, not 'which stupidly overpowered PvE skill spamming build is the best' to fuel Discord'.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 01:05 - 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
I did. It isn't as efficient. Body blocking and SY, plus knocks are quite a good support.
Minions body block, you don't need Save Yourselves if you prioritise and spike your targets down quickly enough, and AP caller supplies constantly recharged knocklock for the target.

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While I don't play it with my Assassin I play with my necro. Which has better energy management and support than an assassin will ever have.
I think I already said N/A was the best for energy management. I also said Assassin was the best physical (which I'm pretty sure is what you are trying to get at) to use AP caller because of its caster aligned theme.

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Still, if you are casting that support, and what support do you use btw?, who is casting the hexes and conditions?

Isn't your main pro for the caller the fact it casts the hexes and conditions, making it faster?

If you are casting the other support, unless they are hexes and conditions, you aren't priming for discord.
I cast primer hex and condition, use a Necro to cast a cover hex in areas with heavy hex removal, and I supply wards or shouts and chants between calling when energy allows. With both Elementalist and Paragon secondaries I can manage my energy just fine to provide my party with either. You don't need, as an AP caller, to be constantly whacking a target 24/7 to do sustained damage, so you can afford a little time to do other stuff that can be benefical to the party. A good player should know when to prioritise between offence and support. A second here and there to cast a support skill isn't going to make a massive difference in efficiency, especially when you outwiegh the moving around of a melee build into account, chasing down targets etc. Lastly, as I've already said I also use high energy sets, to compensate for lack of soul reaping, if needs be. Not to mention going Mesmer secondary and using Ether Signet if needs be.

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No. Physicals won't provide a ranged spike. They will add sustained damage. You wont need to spike from 100%->0% because they will be under 100% and so the discords will finish them between casting their other skills (or you can bind their discords and do clean spikes). So realistically your saying that physicals should sit on the frontline and whack a target over time instead of delivering a powerful spike that can fuel Discord at range and safety behind your minion wall. What are you trying to accomplish? No melee can knocklock a target with the amount of damage an AP caller can dish out in such a short amount of time as efficiently as an AP caller can. The knocklock is important, it minimise damage taken from that particular target, or in the case of healers, the amount they heal.

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Additionally you chose to ignore the fact the physicals can also create the condition and hex really fast and do damage. If that was true then I wouldn't have told you earlier that I used both an Assassin as a AP caller and a Paragon as a physical in Discordway setups. I'm well aware that a player can cast hexes and cause conditions without using AP caller, you can quite easily do that with Enfeebling Blood if you wish to.

I think you're also forgetting the fact that Assassins Promise recharges all of your skills which allows you to bring skills that would normally be undesirable to bring in PvE due to high recharge times, that alone makes it a beneficial skill to use if used correctly.

Like I've always said, use what works best for you. Players have their own preferences. You have yours and I have mine, this long winded debate isn't going to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Kendel View Post
Wow this is getting sad...

Hope they nerf Discord, would be nice to see a major damage reduction and/or a large increase in recharge so the idiots of this thread actually have to think about how to play PvE again, not 'which stupidly overpowered PvE skill spamming build is the best' to fuel Discord'. It won't change anything, people will just move onto the next overpowered PvE hero build. Why make stuff harder for yourself when it doesn't need to be?

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 01:10 - 54
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Originally Posted by traversc View Post
You know what else adds 1 sec to your chain? Moving from target to target in melee. That's going to add way more 1 secs than GOLE.

Stop being bad at math. YMLAD + FH = 250 damage every 1.5 seconds. EVAS = 200 damage in 1.75 seconds. Using EVAS does not improve your DPS, it's only if you actually have time. A single death blossom will deal over 86 damage to a single target. If it hits a secondary target it will deal over 180 damage. If it hits another target it will deal over 260 damage.

Of course it isn't YMLAD+FH. It is YMLAD+HEX and now lets wait for the target to be under 50% health to use FH!. On the first target of a mob that will probably happen, but after you have to wait till your heroes decide it is time to cast discord over whatever skill they are using (unless u micro, which u say you dont).

Lets say you cast EVAS then. Then as an AP sin caller, even with 16 on deadly arts, your energy went back by 14.

So all that YMLAD+FH = 250 damage over 1.5 secs is very pretty but not always true. And of course the 180 damage of FH only work once per target.

Typical moebius builds:

-anti block
[Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][club of one thousand bears][Critical Agility][critical eye][optional][optional]

-for non blocking areas
[Golden Fox Strike][Golden Fang Strike][Death blossom][Moebius Strike][club of one thousand bears][Critical Agility][critical eye][optional][optional]


Going in front has the disadvantage of getting you targeted more, on the other hand you have more armor than the necros, but will also allow to a few enemies stay there surrounding you.

Of course, that after the first mob, the heroes from both builds will be casting stuff.

In a build with a curses necro, that guy will be casting conditions and hexes (like enfeebling blood and shadow of fear) on the mobs all around.

What are your guys casting? Don't they cast Aegis, Minionsn Death nova, heals, etc?

You keep coming with the example of the first mob, where the caller has an advantage. But with the progression of the battle that advantage, of being able to apply quickly an hex and a condition disappears.

What is left is damage.

A necro AP/MoP, will be gladly casting EVAS, YMLAD, Barbs, MoP, etc, but he gains ~13 energy from AP plus another 10-12 energy from each death, so he can afford that expenditure.

An AP assassin caller on the other hand, will have problems on sustaining that 35 energy combo chain (which can be higher if you need to cast a different hex) or maybe using other methods of energy management. And if the necros don't use discord because they are like, I don't know, casting death nova, a heal or Aegis, you won't be able to press that FH to deal damage and can say byebye to those 250 damage in 1.5 secs. Or maybe they moving from an AoE skill or dodging some mob.

In those ideal circumstances you like to present, where you go there and cast your stuff and ur heroes start to discord immediately without the enemy to fire back, AP caller is better than a melee char.

The problem is when the mobs start to shoot at you and your other heroes use the rest of their skill bars, your FH needs to wait, etc.

I know, it isn't such a glorious scenario, but quite real nevertheless.


And by the way DPS is Damage per second, which means Damage Dealt/Time unit.

So, for example, 260 damage every 2 secs is equal 130 damage per second. So EVAS does improve DPS. It doesn't improve spike, since spike is damage dealt simultaneously.

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

05 Jul 2009 at 01:19 - 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendel View Post
Wow this is getting sad...

Hope they nerf Discord, would be nice to see a major damage reduction and/or a large increase in recharge so the idiots of this thread actually have to think about how to play PvE again, not 'which stupidly overpowered PvE skill spamming build is the best' to fuel Discord'. <3 they gave cop the sharp end of the shaft stick, and dropping disco back to a 2sec cast would be nice also, and maybe a longer recharge.

I totally agree tho! i know quite a lot of friends who play mainly disco, adn they cant play in a human team for shit they forgot what it is to do anything but apcombo its kinda funny tbh :P

But then it wont happen, other more broken stuff lives on quite happily!, ER, Sf ect. and lazy mode will stay lazy mode.

thsi will end up flame + lock anyway, with ppl getting +1's

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 01:22 - 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Minions body block, you don't need Save Yourselves if you prioritise and spike your targets down quickly enough, and AP caller supplies constantly recharged knocklock for the target.
Erm? You have 2 knocks for each target. If the target doesn't go down, you will have to wait for the recharge.

I'm not saying I need SY!. I'm saying with it my party will take less damage -> less damage equals less time spent healing -> less time spent healing -> more hexes, conditions and discords.

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I cast primer hex and condition, use a Necro to cast a cover hex in areas with heavy hex removal, and I supply wards or shouts and chants between calling when energy allows. With both Elementalist and Paragon secondaries I can manage my energy just fine to provide my party with either. You don't need, as an AP caller, to be constantly whacking a target 24/7 to do sustained damage, so you can afford a little time to do other stuff that can be benefical to the party. A good player should know when to prioritise between offence and support. A second here and there to cast a support skill isn't going to make a massive difference in efficiency, especially when you outwiegh the moving around of a melee build into account, chasing down targets etc.
And is your hex AP? Or do you use more on your char, increasing the energy expenditure?

And is the secondary hexer cover reliable? He gets an hex on the target at the time you want? So why can't a dedicated curser (and maybe you are using a dedicated curser but other people in this thread run the 2 resto necros) cast the primer hex in a efficient fashion?

So, by your own words, you don't need to cast all the hexes and conditions and that won't hinder the casting of discord or the kill speed of your team. Thank goodness, that is all the point of this thread, and some other people don't seem to get that. I grant that the AP sin caller has the advantage on the first target, but after that, as you say, it works on its own.

Minions and melee assassin body block works both ways. If they are body blocked the assassin will have easy time chasing the enemy as they are wacking him, the minions or sitting there.

You need to consider the AoE effect of DB on the walking.



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So realistically your saying that physicals should sit on the frontline and whack a target over time instead of delivering a powerful spike that can fuel Discord at range and safety behind your minion wall. What are you trying to accomplish? No melee can knocklock a target with the amount of damage an AP caller can dish out in such a short amount of time as efficiently as an AP caller can. The knocklock is important, it minimise damage taken from that particular target, or in the case of healers, the amount they heal.
Aren't they body blocked? And if they aren't, wont SY! give an important contribution on the defense?

And what about earth shakers or Dragon slash warriors that keep spamming it with brawling headbutt for a complete knock lock?

Or a ranger that will throw a BHA at the enemy caster rending him useless?

Quote: He is talking of thinking instead of smashing buttons dude. Advantage over melee only comes in first mob , on the rest ( if you play wise ) that "advantage" doesnt exist and please quit saying you do the chain damage in 1.5 or 3 secs because that is simply BS.

Quote:
Like I've always said, use what works best for you. Players have their own preferences. You have yours and I have mine, this long winded debate isn't going to change anything. Never did I say you should stop playing a sin AP caller. When I want to play ranged casters I use my casters. But you use whatever you prefer. I noticed you said you use discordway with a physical paragon. I'm trying to say exactly that. Some people just say discord sucks that way because of no caller.


Now, do you think that the differential between running discordway with a sin AP caller instead of melee sin is so big (either way), that it will have any significant impact on the outcome (including time wise)?

I don't think so.

What I do is believe that running discordway with an Assassin/Warrior, Dervish/Ranger/Paragon has a large differential to something like sabs or most other builds (although some builds in certain areas will be as good or even slightly better).

If you read the threads in these forums, a large chunk of players believe that running discordway is inefficient compared to other builds without an AP caller, closing them down to all the physical professions but the Sin.

I thing though, while assassin AP caller vs melee assassin might be close and not make a difference, a paragon caller vs an imbagon or a warrior melee vs a warrior caller, does make a big difference and it is better to run the physical version over the AP caster.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Apparently some player seems to believe that Discordway is only good when you run an AP caller build and that heroes wont use discord properly without it.

That is incorrect.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then,while the AP caller isn't very suited for most (if not all) of the physical professions, that doesn't mean the necro trio using discord isn't still one of the best all round 3 heroes setup.

Very important is the fact physical professions can deal tremendous amount of damage, outpacing the damage of the AP caller.

And while people seems to focus on the AP SIN caller debate, which is the closest call in terms of physicals, shall I infer from the lack of arguments presented that Discordway with a curses necro is the best build for the other physicals, and that after all, even if you don't have an ap caller, because your profession is badly adequate to use it, is quite efficient?

For example an earth shaker warrior has knocklock, AoE at that, with powerful AoE damage.

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

05 Jul 2009 at 01:56 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
I'm missing the part in Asuran Scans description that says it increases your energy.

You're not thinking of the title based buff are you? Sorry I meant it increased your own damage as well. So it has a purpose other than just a trigger hex.

I was typing that after a 51 minute starcraft game so sorry if I was a bit tired ^_^

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 02:05 - 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
I thing though, while assassin AP caller vs melee assassin might be close and not make a difference, a paragon caller vs an imbagon or a warrior melee vs a warrior caller, does make a big difference and it is better to run the physical version over the AP caster.
I never said you should even run an AP caller on a Warrior or a Paragon.

If I'm running a Paragon or a Warrior I wouldn't even use Discordway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marverick View Post
Sorry I meant it increased your own damage as well. So it has a purpose other than just a trigger hex.

I was typing that after a 51 minute starcraft game so sorry if I was a bit tired ^_^ No biggy mate.

Asuran Scan is strong though I'm not a fan of the aftercast delay.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

05 Jul 2009 at 02:15 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Going in front has the disadvantage of getting you targeted more, on the other hand you have more armor than the necros, but will also allow to a few enemies stay there surrounding you.
Yeah, going into melee has the disadvantage. I'm glad you finally realized that. However, it's much more of a disadvantage than you care to believe, especially as an easily shutdown, enchantment reliant squishy. It means you're likely to die rather than your minions, which not only means less death nova damage, but also straining your heroes to heal and prot you, which you already have less of because you needed to spread your atts for melee buffs.

Quote:
You keep coming with the example of the first mob, where the caller has an advantage. I have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect no one else does either.

Quote:
But with the progression of the battle that advantage, of being able to apply quickly an hex and a condition disappears.

What is left is damage.

A necro AP/MoP, will be gladly casting EVAS, YMLAD, Barbs, MoP, etc, but he gains ~13 energy from AP plus another 10-12 energy from each death, so he can afford that expenditure.

An AP assassin caller on the other hand, will have problems on sustaining that 35 energy combo chain (which can be higher if you need to cast a different hex) or maybe using other methods of energy management. And if the necros don't use discord because they are like, I don't know, casting death nova, a heal or Aegis, you won't be able to press that FH to deal damage and can say byebye to those 250 damage in 1.5 secs. Or maybe they moving from an AoE skill or dodging some mob. There is no energy problem.

A full chain isn't needed all the time.

A sin has 4 pips e-regen just like a caster. A sin has a higher level Promise which gives back more energy than casters. Furthermore, almost EVERY secondary option has strong e-management options.

A sin is arguably BETTER at AP calling than other casters (besides of course the necromancer.)

Let me add that even with no secondary e-management, a full chain is completable at least 4 times. After this point, things are already dying from all the innate AoE discordway has/random minion/hench damage, and sometimes all that's needed is AP+FH which brings your energy back up straight away. Not only that, but AP+YMLAD+FH! is COMPLETELY sustainable.

This is all moot, because with any number of secondaries, you have any number of e-management options which can make your full chain sustainable indefinitely.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

05 Jul 2009 at 03:06 - 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
Yeah, going into melee has the disadvantage. I'm glad you finally realized that. However, it's much more of a disadvantage than you care to believe, especially as an easily shutdown, enchantment reliant squishy.
Enchantment reliant squi ... wait , are you on crack ? a MS/DB sin reliant on ench ? soz dude , you failed. And what about your GOD Ap Caller ? 1 stupid interrupt and you are down 45sec and please , PLEASE dont bring that sht of "AP casts 3/4 sec and is not likely to be interrupted" at HM because ppl will laugh at you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post It means you're likely to die rather than your minions, which not only means less death nova damage, but also straining your heroes to heal and prot you, which you already have less of because you needed to spread your atts for melee buffs.
Sorry to tell you but some of us know how to play and are wise enough to bring minions with nova first. I know you are used to retarded ppl playing gimmick builds but there are ppl out there that know what they are doing.

Quote: Originally Posted by traversc View Post I have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect no one else does either.
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
There is no energy problem.A full chain isn't needed all the time. Then stop saying you do all the damage of all skills at max norn rank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
This is all moot, because with any number of secondaries, you have any number of e-management options which can make your full chain sustainable indefinitely. Thats a pure lie , casting or doing e-management slows your chain and your speed so for god sake dont say you can do it all and be full of energy every 4 secs or so. Do you really thought that no one noticed that you are shortening your full chain times for like a 20-40% ?

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

05 Jul 2009 at 07:24 - 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
Yeah, if you want Carpal.

Also, that's not even true. For N/A, for example, you can put off killing your target for more MoP goodness. Also you're assuming heroes are wasting your time when they're not discording. No. They are MMing, healing, protting, etc, which is sweet because having a huge-ass minion army while simultaneously not dying owns your face.


Seems like you're not only not playing an AP caller, doing at least 250 damage per target, 450 if you bother to EVAS, but also not calling your target. News flash: You're doing it very wrong, which is probably why you think discord sucks. The fact that you havent' figured this out yet, is only a testament to human ingenuity.

Micro-ing discord is just too powerful, and takes away from the other main functions of the discorders (building a huge ass minion army) which is anti-awesome. If your heroes are doing anything else other than using Disco, that costs time. Sure, what they are doing isn't useless, BUT it also means that all of a sudden your math is off.
Finish Him has an effect if the guy is under 50%.
If your guys aren't hitting Disco - that means you don't get the guy under 50% (at least not as fast as you make it sound) and that means you AREN'T doing 250 damage in 1.5 secs.

You want the best effect?
You'll micro Disco.
You think that's too much work or isn't needed?
I guess the same argument can be used to justify not running an AP caller.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

05 Jul 2009 at 07:41 - 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
If your heroes are doing anything else other than using Disco, that costs time. Sure, what they are doing isn't useless, BUT it also means that all of a sudden your math is off.
Finish Him has an effect if the guy is under 50%.
If your guys aren't hitting Disco - that means you don't get the guy under 50% (at least not as fast as you make it sound) and that means you AREN'T doing 250 damage in 1.5 secs.
After the first few targets, most targets will already be under 50% after AP + YMLAD, so there is no wait. For the first few targets, or if there is a wait, you just use up time by casting EVAS or any number of your other 4 skills. Note that using EVAS or your other four skills is not equivalent to twiddling your thumbs or being sub-par. For example, A/Rt, cast splinter if there's downtime - you just did 160 AoE.

Quote:
There are several useful utility skills in the Mesmer line that allow you to replenish your energy in under a second. One second is not a big deal, neither is their recharge when fueled by AP.

Considering AP and EVAS only take like 2 seconds to cast (remember the other skills are shouts and activate instantly with no aftercast) that leaves you a whole 2 seconds out of the 4 seconds to cast energy management skills, if you want to work along that theorycraft.

For the record I find energy management rarely needed with an Assassin AP caller, just use a high energy set should you need that little bit extra towards the end of combat.

Quote:
You want the best effect?
You'll micro Disco.

You think that's too much work or isn't needed? I think it is not only not needed but also not strictly better.
Quote:
I guess the same argument can be used to justify not running an AP caller. Also, you're running a very slippery slope. Take your reasoning even further, and you can use the argument to justify not playing guild wars at all. I mean, why put in effort when it's just a game.

Kendel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2009

05 Jul 2009 at 09:37 - 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
It won't change anything, people will just move onto the next overpowered PvE hero build. Why make stuff harder for yourself when it doesn't need to be? Yes its such a shame the words 'fun' and 'challenge' are almost completely unknown on this forum. Only 'speed' and 'profit' matter.

Also i'm sure a meleer can handle it, its really not hard to inflict a condition and hex with Asuran Scan around, although wtf do YOU need to inflict a hex for? You've got 3 necros, how hard can it be to bring something spammable or with a very large AoE on them? Pretty sure a Crit Scythe Sin would have no problems inflicting DW/Bleeding on a target and an optional Asuran scan. Oh and to the cretin who said earlier that you need to be in melee range... big whoop, once your in melee range of 1 thing it doesn't take 3 seconds to reach the next.

Crassus Praetor

Crassus Praetor

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

England

Jade Reapers [JD]

W/

05 Jul 2009 at 09:42 - 64
"Gole does 0 to FH and YMLAD."

"GoLE doesn't effect shouts fyi, l2p."

This defies belief how you can argue against someone with their own argument.

AP Caller is a way of meeting the conditions of Discord, it really
shouldn't matter if another build can complete something 0.27 seconds
quicker and certainly shouldn't warrant 4 pages of mindless arguments
with no outcome.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 09:53 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendel View Post
Yes its such a shame the words 'fun' and 'challenge' are almost completely unknown on this forum. Only 'speed' and 'profit' matter. If I want challenge (not nessecarily fun in some cases) I'll play with humans.

At the end of the day who cares how someone else wants to play the game they paid for? If they're hero and henching it doesn't affect you in the slightest other than leaving you with one less player to game with. Going on your mentality that's not nessecarily a bad thing for you right? So it's a win win situation in both cases.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 09:58 - 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor View Post
..... GoLE doesn't effect shouts fyi, l2p.

You cast GoLE before starting your chain, AP and EVAS become free and you dont lose the q-knock effect.

And yes I say that AP caller has bigger burst damage, that would true.
GolE does 0 to shouts - 0 means nothing. Read skills.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crassus Praetor View Post
AP Caller is a way of meeting the conditions of Discord, it really
shouldn't matter if another build can complete something 0.27 seconds
quicker and certainly shouldn't warrant 4 pages of mindless arguments
with no outcome. The objective was to stomp the myth that you can't uses discord necros with physicals or that isn't effective.

Truth is the necro trio is pretty much self reliant, regardless of your main.

I guess that is why some players dislike it.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 10:03 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
Enchantment reliant squi ... wait , are you on crack ? a MS/DB sin reliant on ench ? soz dude , you failed. And what about your GOD Ap Caller ? 1 stupid interrupt and you are down 45sec and please , PLEASE dont bring that sht of "AP casts 3/4 sec and is not likely to be interrupted" at HM because ppl will laugh at you.
Critical Agility (and there's no valid reason to not run this unless you're using cons) is an enchantment. You're reliant on this for extra armour and a IAS.

AP being interrupted is not really a problem once you have the experience of knowing what to watch out for. This can easily be solved by not being a bad player.

Quote: Thats a pure lie , casting or doing e-management slows your chain and your speed so for god sake dont say you can do it all and be full of energy every 4 secs or so. Do you really though that no one noticed that you are shortening your full chain times for like a 20-40% ?
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
GolE does 0 to shouts - 0 means nothing. Read skills. It makes EVAS free. EVAS is a spell. That's -10 energy off your chain making your 35 energy chain now cost 25 energy at the cost of 1 second.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

05 Jul 2009 at 10:21 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Critical Agility (and there's no valid reason to not run this unless you're using cons) is an enchantment. You're reliant on this for extra armour and a IAS.
No and no. The BUILD is not reliant on enchantments and THE BUILD does work with it ,and slightly slower without it and without that extra armor . A Crit Scythe Sin IS the one Ench reliant , without em he is not a Crit Scythe sin.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post AP being interrupted is not really a problem once you have the experience of knowing what to watch out for. This can easily be solved by not being a bad player.
Oh no no, dont play that "game conditions are like that because i want to" , i can say the same to you. If you are not a bad player, CA will never be removed. There are more insane HM interrupters out there than Ench removers that "by fate" will "always" target you and not Dnova minions that are closer to him and another ench player bla bla.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
There are several useful utility skills in the Mesmer line that allow you to replenish your energy in under a second. One second is not a big deal, neither is their recharge when fueled by AP.
Most of them need a condition to met ( interrupt something ) or are a little slow ( like energy tap ) so no , it does slow the chain. Never said it was a big deal but it does slow the chain. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Considering AP and EVAS only take like 2 seconds to cast (remember the other skills are shouts and activate instantly with no aftercast) that leaves you a whole 2 seconds out of the 4 seconds to cast energy management skills, if you want to work along that theorycraft. Read Improvavel , if you want to go on theory , you are saying ( or mister "i do my full AP chain in 1.5 sec" traversc ) that you ALWAYS get the mob on 50% or lower in 1.5 or 2 secs and mate that is just simply not true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
For the record I find energy management rarely needed with an Assassin AP caller, just use a high energy set should you need that little bit extra towards the end of combat. Yeah and proper timing and waiting for using skills at proper time , not full APchain all skills every 3 sec like traversc wants us to believe . LoL @ that even he ignores someone that tells the truth he dont wanna read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
It makes EVAS free. EVAS is a spell. That's -10 energy off your chain making your 35 energy chain now cost 25 energy at the cost of 1 second. You are right , but as i said before its rather slow the chain and downtimes or sacrifice speed. Its not against you , is just that im against the fake maths that avoid counting downtimes .... its just like i say "i have 190 melee DPS for real because i have it on MoD" and avoid counting the second switching targets in a long battle , its simply not true.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 10:34 - 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
No and no. The BUILD is not reliant on enchantments and THE BUILD does work with it ,and slightly slower without it and without that extra armor . A Crit Scythe Sin IS the one Ench reliant , without em he is not a Crit Scythe sin.
Of course it's reliant on it's enchantment if you want it to be efficient. You'll lack armour and your IAS meaning you'll take more damage, and deal less. Golden Fox would also then be blockable, and Golden Fang wouldnt fulfill the requirement to deal its condition (assumption based on the most common skills on MS/DB).

Quote:
Oh no no, dont play that "game conditions are like that because i want to" , i can say the same to you. If you are not a bad player, CA will never be removed. There are more insane HM interrupters out there than Ench removers that "by fate" will "always" target you and not Dnova minions that are closer to him and another ench player bla bla.
I can play that, because that is how it is. Both styles have their weaknesses. Being a good player and knowing how to combat stuff that aims to exploit those weaknesses is key to making either style work efficiently, and it's quite possible to do that with both.

Quote:
Most of them need a condition to met ( interrupt something ) or are a little slow ( like energy tap ) so no , it does slow the chain. Never said it was a big deal but it does slow the chain. Period.
How hard are those conditions to meet on Hard mode against predictable AI? Use what works best for the area ahead of you. It doesn't really slow you down if you use it at the right times. As for Energy Tap, eww.

Quote: Read Improvavel , if you want to go on theory , you are saying ( or mister "i do my full AP chain in 1.5 sec" traversc ) that you ALWAYS get the mob on 50% or lower in 1.5 or 2 secs and mate that is just simply not true. I'm not the one saying it, nothing more needs to be said here. Simply stating the fact that once you have cast EVAS you have plenty of time to cast any energy management you need really.

Quote:
Yeah and proper timing and waiting for using skills at proper time , not full APchain all skills every 3 sec like traversc wants us to believe . LoL @ that even he ignores someone that tells the truth he dont wanna read. Not really relevant to me.

Quote:
You are right , but as i said before its rather slow the chain and downtimes or sacrifice speed. Not really, you can cast it as you use Finish Him (Seems Finish Him is a shout you can do both at the same time). Timing is crucial though. In any case one second is not a big deal.

Quote:
Its not against you , is just that im against the fake maths that avoid counting downtimes .... its just like i say "i have 190 melee DPS for real because i have it on MoD" and avoid counting the second switching targets in a long battle , its simply not true. I try to steer away from mathes (it's far from my strongest point), however you have that extra second to target switch with both styles, the only difference being with the melee they still have to move to the target, while the AP caller with good positioning can just get on with it. Realisitcally speed wise both are about the same, just the AP caller offers a quicker spike damage assist (as I've said before) along with utility, while physicals offer more damage over time.

I find prioritising much easier with an AP caller though as you're sitting back a little to get a better view of things, and not worrying about stuff whacking you as much.

Again it comes down to player preference and playing style, nothing more.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

05 Jul 2009 at 10:48 - 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
After the first few targets, most targets will already be under 50% after AP + YMLAD, so there is no wait. For the first few targets, or if there is a wait, you just use up time by casting EVAS or any number of your other 4 skills. Note that using EVAS or your other four skills is not equivalent to twiddling your thumbs or being sub-par. For example, A/Rt, cast splinter if there's downtime - you just did 160 AoE.


I think it is not only not needed but also not strictly better.

Also, you're running a very slippery slope. Take your reasoning even further, and you can use the argument to justify not playing guild wars at all. I mean, why put in effort when it's just a game.
Just posting one of your first posts again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
No it is faster. The very fact that MS/DB is melee, and the fact that it takes ~1-2 seconds to even get into melee range, means it is slower.

There is no comparison. An AP caller can do ~250 damage in 1.5 seconds with norn shouts. EVAS does ~200 damage costing you 1.75 seconds and knocklocks.

On the other hand, assuming completely ideal conditions (i.e., everything shadow steps to you in melee range), MS/DB takes 1.75 seconds to do ~100 damage (asura scan + first hit)... and doesn't even prime for discord (condition req). Those two posts sound a BIT different.

If you want to meet your "1.5 sec" time, you can't afford to waste time by casting something else. AP is 0.75 secs. You activate YMLD at the same time. Disco is a 1 sec cast. Which means you are currently at 1.75. IF you activate FH! at EXACTLY the moment that Disco hits that should also be the end time. You are currently already over your 1.5 secs. Now if your guys are casting something else the moment that you apply the condition and hex (or are recovering from the aftercast) - you are even further away from what you are trying to sell.
Unless of course you micro it and pretty much start casting Disco the moment you start casting AP/YMLD!

If you even want to dream of the times you are listing here - you'll micro it.
Otherwise stop throwing out crap such as 1.5 secs to do 250 damage and acting as if the "~1-2 seconds to even get into melee range" even plays a role.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 11:38 - 71
[QUOTE=Unreal Havoc;4726280
It makes EVAS free. EVAS is a spell. That's -10 energy off your chain making your 35 energy chain now cost 25 energy at the cost of 1 second.[/QUOTE]

Are you reading my posts? I said that.

What you quoted was a response to a someone else.

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 12:21 - 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Are you reading my posts? I said that.

What you quoted was a response to a someone else.
Here is what Super Igor said.

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor ..... GoLE doesn't effect shouts fyi, l2p.

You cast GoLE before starting your chain, AP and EVAS become free and you dont lose the q-knock effect.

And yes I say that AP caller has bigger burst damage, that would true. Here was your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
GolE does 0 to shouts - 0 means nothing. Read skills. So for your information yes I am reading your posts. I was highlighting the fact that Glyph of Lesser Energy wasn't for shouts, which Igor had already pointed out to you anyway. Your last comment makes it look like you seem to think that others, or yourself, thought the glyph was for the shouts. If you mean something else by it then you should make it more clear because it just doesn't make sense any other way to me.

I was just simply making it clear exactly what it is for.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

05 Jul 2009 at 12:24 - 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendel View Post
Yes its such a shame the words 'fun' and 'challenge' are almost completely unknown on this forum. Only 'speed' and 'profit' matter.

Also i'm sure a meleer can handle it, its really not hard to inflict a condition and hex with Asuran Scan around, although wtf do YOU need to inflict a hex for? You've got 3 necros, how hard can it be to bring something spammable or with a very large AoE on them? Pretty sure a Crit Scythe Sin would have no problems inflicting DW/Bleeding on a target and an optional Asuran scan. Oh and to the cretin who said earlier that you need to be in melee range... big whoop, once your in melee range of 1 thing it doesn't take 3 seconds to reach the next. Because taking it yourself saves time and a skill slot on your heroes?


Also, speed and profit = fun to me and no i wont run an inferior build just for the sake of making my life harder, I'm not a perv.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 13:16 - 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Here is what Super Igor said.
So for your information yes I am reading your posts. I was highlighting the fact that Glyph of Lesser Energy wasn't for shouts, which Igor had already pointed out to you anyway. Your last comment makes it look like you seem to think that others thought the glyph was for the shouts. If you mean something else by it then you should make it more clear because it just doesn't make sense any other way to me.

I was just simply making it clear exactly what it is for.
No - it didn't start like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ME
Gole does 0 to FH and YMLAD. You could use gole before EVAS and whatever hex but you are adding 1 sec to your chain.
Then

Quote:
Quote
Originally Posted by Super Igor
..... GoLE doesn't effect shouts fyi, l2p. So I say Gole doesn't affect FH and YMLAD. Then my logic and my game ability is contested because GoLE does't affect shouts?

Unreal Havoc

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Jul 2009 at 13:52 - 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
No - it didn't start like that.
So it started like this then? I removed the irrelevant stuff from the quotes taken from the previous page.

Igors post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor For a sin, you have 9 profs to chose from, I for example use Ele secondary with GoLE for extra energy management, works wonders, I never have a slight bit of energy problem. Your reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Gole does 0 to FH and YMLAD. You could use gole before EVAS and whatever hex but you are adding 1 sec to your chain. Igor clearly never mentions using Glyph of Lesser Energy for shouts. So it makes no sense as to why you say it doesn't affect shouts, anyone with half a brain already knows this.

This has nothing to do with your game ability, just trying to understand what the hell you're going on about (some of us like to make an effort to understand others even if it doesn't seem that way).

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

05 Jul 2009 at 14:38 - 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Of course it's reliant on it's enchantment if you want it to be efficient. You'll lack armour and your IAS meaning you'll take more damage, and deal less. Golden Fox would also then be blockable, and Golden Fang wouldnt fulfill the requirement to deal its condition (assumption based on the most common skills on MS/DB).
DB isnt going to recharge faster with 33% ias , when you get to that point , real effects are like 15-20% IAS. Still is not reliant , works better to get DW and an unblockable first but 90% of the times those arent needed and even more with a Discord setup ... just asura scan +jagged will trigger it for exmp. Dont get confused with efficient and MORE efficient , with or without ench , that build works efficiently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post I can play that, because that is how it is. Both styles have their weaknesses. Being a good player and knowing how to combat stuff that aims to exploit those weaknesses is key to making either style work efficiently, and it's quite possible to do that with both.
Thats what we are trying to say but that not what you said before ( yeah , saw your post before your edit ).


Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post How hard are those conditions to meet on Hard mode against predictable AI? Use what works best for the area ahead of you. It doesn't really slow you down if you use it at the right times. As for Energy Tap, eww.
Its easy to say "several useful utility skills in the Mesmer line that allow you to replenish your energy in under a second." but they are hard because as i told ya they have conditions to met. Have fun with leech sig on a melee or trying to power drain a HM mob spell with INSANE casting speed ... little lag and you are done. No more theorycraft and "general" speak please.

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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post I'm not the one saying it, nothing more needs to be said here. Simply stating the fact that once you have cast EVAS you have plenty of time to cast any energy management you need really.
Ofc , im not saying the opposite but there goes more time and chain speed goes down. As i told ya , is not about you , its about the other guy that kills faster than superman , all in 1.5-3 sec and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Not really, you can cast it as you use Finish Him (Seems Finish Him is a shout you can do both at the same time). Timing is crucial though. In any case one second is not a big deal. No , not a big deal but again , read above and no , is not 1 sec ALWAYS , maybe half of the times.

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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Realisitcally speed wise both are about the same, just the AP caller offers a quicker spike damage assist (as I've said before) along with utility, while physicals offer more damage over time. Welcome to the club , +DoT also rox but there are dumb ppl saying the oposite ( like Super Troll ).

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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
I find prioritising much easier with an AP caller though as you're sitting back a little to get a better view of things, and not worrying about stuff whacking you as much. Thats the point of Discordway with an AP caller , its a button smasher and requires almost 0 skill but thats not a reason to say that a skilled melee can DoT and get same efficiency unlike other ppl say ( not you ).

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Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
Again it comes down to player preference and playing style, nothing more. Official member

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05 Jul 2009 at 14:46 - 77
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
DB isnt going to recharge faster with 33% ias , when you get to that point , real effects are like 15-20% IAS. Still is not reliant , works better to get DW and an unblockable first but 90% of the times those arent needed and even more with a Discord setup ... just asura scan +jagged will trigger it for exmp. Dont get confused with efficient and MORE efficient , with or without ench , that build works efficiently.
So you basically trying to say that people shouldnt run IAS with MS/DB?


What about faster skill activations, faster hex trigger, faster Slinter?


Jagged Strike?!

Unreal Havoc

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05 Jul 2009 at 14:58 - 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
DB isnt going to recharge faster with 33% ias , when you get to that point , real effects are like 15-20% IAS. Still is not reliant , works better to get DW and an unblockable first but 90% of the times those arent needed and even more with a Discord setup ... just asura scan +jagged will trigger it for exmp. Dont get confused with efficient and MORE efficient , with or without ench , that build works efficiently.
How is it efficient when it works slower than with a IAS? Jagged and Asuran Scan can fulfill the requirement for Discord to trigger, but it is less damage for the MS/DB to start with meaning you have to do more work on the far end of your chain which takes you longer to get to without an IAS. Not to mention I don't need to physically hit my target first to trigger Discord.

It works but nowhere near as efficiently as an AP caller when you think about the amount of quick spike damage an AP caller does to start with while fueling Discord with a hex, damage, snare, and KD lock. It takes literally just one second to cast AP and "YMLaD!" providing you're in shout range (good positioning, something I covered previously).

Physically MS/DB, or any other physical build for that matter, can fuel Discord, thats not really a dispute as a monkey should understand anyone can lay a condition and hex on a target, but doing it as efficiently, especially when foes are nearing very low health is a different story. Especially seems MS/DB has to restart its chain, or pack other skills to compensate when switching targets.

With the style you're describing you're packing at least 5 skills, 6 if you include your IAS, AP caller can blow stuff up with just 4 giving better bar compression, and hence better efficiency.

There are counters to everything, but the point is the AP caller takes most of this and tells them to shove it as it blows stuff up.

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Thats what we are trying to say but that not what you said before ( yeah , saw your post before your edit ).
Edit or not my principle is still the same.

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Its easy to say "several useful utility skills in the Mesmer line that allow you to replenish your energy in under a second." but they are hard because as i told ya they have conditions to met. Have fun with leech sig on a melee or trying to power drain a HM mob spell with INSANE casting speed ... little lag and you are done. No more theorycraft and "general" speak please.
Yet it is just an example. Stop claiming theorycraft on stuff that is tried and tested. Last but not least Mesmer is not the only proffession that has energy management, it was a simple point that you can spec into many different proffessions for energy, and with the right planning for the area ahead you can pack yourself some utility too.

Just because something may be hard to use that doesn't mean it cannot be efective in the right hands, or the right area. This is where versatility comes into play.

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Ofc , im not saying the opposite but there goes more time and chain speed goes down. As i told ya , is not about you , its about the other guy that kills faster than superman , all in 1.5-3 sec and repeat. Seriously, take it up with him.

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No , not a big deal but again , read above and no , is not 1 sec ALWAYS , maybe half of the times. Gluph of Lesser Energy has a 1 second cast time. So how is it only half the time taking one second to cast?

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Thats the point of Discordway with an AP caller , its a button smasher and requires almost 0 skill but thats not a reason to say that a skilled melee can DoT and get same efficiency unlike other ppl say ( not you ). I disagree that it requires 0 skill. I see it as more of a build that is very easy to pick up and play but has alot more depth to it in the hands of an experienced player.

Quote: Apart from death of bosses recharge all of your skills meaning it doesn't matter if AP triggers or not, it might hurt your energy (unless you're a Necromancer or Elementalist) but you have energy management to deal with that, and you should have a backup hex anyway for those situations that you micro from your Necromancer so that you can cast AP near the bosses death instead.

I only really ever find some Elementalist, Monk or Ritualist bosses a problem where I have to change my tactics, most of the time I leave bosses until last so any lack of energy from AP not triggering is rarely a problem by then.

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Official member Umm what?

Paul Dawg

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05 Jul 2009 at 15:15 - 79
At least with the hero team from the pvxwiki page, I'm finding that the first hex can't be AP. That's because the target will OFTEN die within the time frame, but not always, especially not if it's a boss, and bosses are, of course, very often the target you need to eliminate first. And if you call AP and your target doesn't croak, you've gimped your whole bar. So I need to hex the target with something else, YMLaD while I'm hexing, and then revert to AP when it becomes clear that the target really is going to go down. And that's pretty energy-intensive.

Where exactly are you guys using this team that you just steamroll everything? You're doing this in HM, right? I mean, yeah, it kills things, but not noticeably faster than other hero teams I've used, and the defense is horrible. (Recovery can't possibly be right on the N/Rt curser, but I haven't had the time to sit down and figure out what would be better.) The team seems to suck especially bad against groups with multiple casters.

Unreal Havoc

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05 Jul 2009 at 15:36 - 80
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Originally Posted by Paul Dawg View Post
At least with the hero team from the pvxwiki page, I'm finding that the first hex can't be AP. That's because the target will OFTEN die within the time frame, but not always, especially not if it's a boss, and bosses are, of course, very often the target you need to eliminate first. And if you call AP and your target doesn't croak, you've gimped your whole bar. So I need to hex the target with something else, YMLaD while I'm hexing, and then revert to AP when it becomes clear that the target really is going to go down. And that's pretty energy-intensive.
Where exactly are you guys using this team that you just steamroll everything? You're doing this in HM, right? I mean, yeah, it kills things, but not noticeably faster than other hero teams I've used, and the defense is horrible. (Recovery can't possibly be right on the N/Rt curser, but I haven't had the time to sit down and figure out what would be better.) The team seems to suck especially bad against groups with multiple casters. I myself have used my own variants of it in FoW on HM, Southern Shiverpeaks for vanquishing, EotN for vanquishing, and for vanquishing in Factions. I also have done my fair share of HM missions with it too across all the campaigns. The most fun one I did was Vizunah Square on HM post Ritualist update with GoE. We mastered it first go in a pretty fast time running dual discordway on synched foreign and local teams, we then did it again and did it even quicker the next run.

Recovery acts as another spirit for Mend Body and Souls requirements so that it removes multiple conditions. Aswell as being a backup it also comes in handy if one of your Necromancers uses Foul Feast. You could probably chop and change it if you want to, there's alot more to the setup than just the PvX build.

Myself I only run one Restoration Necromancer nowadays, I don't run the PvX version I modified mine to suit me and what I run on my caller, so I don't run Recovery either.

I find if you kill stuff quickly enough you don't need so much defense, and don't forget you still have another four party slots to fill.