Why I think PvE is broken.(rant)

I'm sure this topic has been covered before in length, but this is my own spin on things.. if you don't want to read it, that's your right, please don't complain that it's been said before.

That said.. having played all the expansions and the original(since late '05ish) I've seen a great deal of trends and changes in the game itself as well as the skill meta. Around the time of nightfall's release, I took a hiatus from pve to play pvp and didn't look back for a couple years. Which, BTW, I strongly suggest that pve-only players give serious pvp a shot because there was never a time where I learned more about the game nuances, mechanics and the strengths and weaknesses of individual classes then during this period. I'm also firmly in the belief that the most knowledgeable GW players were or are serious pvpers. Recently(past three months or so), I've made a transition back to pve for something a little different. I would now say I'm quite familiar with current pve skills, builds and tactics. However, I'm alarmed at the way the vast majority of pve is played and I sense there's a lack of variety as well as skill and knowledge on the part of several key classes(i.e. monks).

The first thing that is blatantly obvious to me is what permasins bring to the table. I realize that before permasins, people used obby tanks and terra tanks to conquer difficult areas, i.e domain of anguish. I also realize that people love permasins for the ease of use and the profitability. There's really no end to the ways you can farm with a permasin. Lastly, I understand that assassins are a flawed class that can be a liability in pve as well as pvp(note they are seldom used at all in serious pvp arenas). So in a sense, granting the ability to upkeep shadowform permanently was a gift to people who made assassins without realizing their short comings... but there's several problems with the pve meta related to widespread use of these builds.

One such problem is the obsession with farming. Yes people are mentally hooked on the idea of garnering gold for in-game items. Sometimes this is useful, but life is about the journey not the destination right? People forget the game is about playing the game not finding the quickest route to collecting gold. Often times when I question players about this, they respond to me with "I farm so I can afford to do what I want to do." Ok that's fair, but I don't know how much I believe that, because in my experience people mainly farm to farm more. Think about it, think hard. I've seen more than a few permasin players farm themselves right out of the game. It's so ridiculously easy(yes, easy, i'll cover that later) they get tunnel vision and they get bored with it, so they don't bother to try different classes or builds. If you did this, you did it to yourself. Yes, farming will never go away, a little bit is probably ok and maybe this topic is best covered in another thread.. but it alludes to one of my points about permasin being a problem, and that's that many players don't want to challenge themselves with something that might be slightly more difficult to control than a permasin build that solos(gloom) or gathers aggro(vsf). If you remove all the challenge from the game just to earn gold, I think you're missing the point of the game.. and that is to enjoy the game and not the false sense of satisfaction from earning in-game moneys. Reality check, it doesn't matter what skins you have, it doesn't matter what extras you have(heavy equipment pack, etc.).. what matters is that you had a fun time. If your idea of fun is strictly farming, I can respect that, but really... how many people truly enjoy pure farming and how many people are just getting a false sense of satisfaction from it? If anyone has ideas about turning this into an argument of perception, then I strongly suggest you find a different game, because much more fun can be had elsewhere earning fake moneys in games.

Before I get into my next point, I want to reiterate that using a permasin is indeed easy. For there to be an easy, there must be a hard, and on a relative scale using a permasin is quite easy... and that is exactly why people use permasins. I don't care what build you're using or for what purpose, in all likelyhood you're using it because it's simply(or you believe it to be) an easier choice. The reason people use permasins over obby tanks or even terratanks is simply because it's easier. Sins do it better, right? If you're honestly going to argue that, take a terra or obby tank to a place normally conquered by the coveted permasin and try it. If you say it's easier without a perma, you're a liar and you're calling most pvers liars because they quite obviously find it to be easier as evidenced by it's prevelance. I can micro a permasin in a hero, that should tell you something.

Before it became prevelant, the permasin's role was usually taken by an obby or terra tank. Particularly due to extremely difficult and unforgiving pve areas such as domain of anguish. I'll never forget the opening weekend to that place. So while yes, this next issue was a problem beforehand, it is more a problem than ever before; The tank or break build. This most fragile of pve builds is based on a tank that absorbs aggro and/or damage while a team of 60al casters spam aoe skills to conquer a difficult pve area. While this can and will work with experienced players and careful aggro, it is extremely fragile and prone to party wipes when aggro breaks -- as it often does in HM. This build also enforces a mindset into players that only casters can deal damage and that only straight healing skills are necessary to protect the party. Pve monks often bring HB or UA builds that center around seed of life and/or heal party with poorly thought out utility or versatility. What ever happened to WoH? What's wrong with WoH? I'll tell you, absolutely nothing.. it's great, HB and UA are the flavors of the month. More on narrow-minded pve monking later. The main problem is that tank or break builds are short-sighted, exclusionary, redundant and getting old quick. The rise of the permasin is a huge reason for this. Even in the early days we had bundle tanking(gear or unholy text), but aggro was easier to manage and we still generally had a midline. The paragon did not invent the midline, the ranger is a clear example of a character class designed to be in the midline with respectable armor and possibly short range attacks. These sorts of arrangements can still be used for difficult hard mode areas with more versatile monking builds, two or more defy pain warriors, imbagons, snares, ward eles. etc. Yes, yes they can. Say it with obama now! Not only are midline builds viable, but they generally include more character classes.. I see fewer paragons in the game than any other class, and why? imbagon is clearly an excellent build for these purposes, but nobody wants to use this arrangement. Two words for those of you who don't get it; unstrippable buffs. All it takes is for one or two builds like this to make sense and click, suddenly people will realize it can be done. In the meantime, the run of the mill pver is convinced it won't work, and that is because they are simply ignorant ... and ... why not permasin, it's easy right?

So, to summarize;
I believe the permasin is bad for pve because;
1. it brings a strong emphasis to farming(often making players bored with the game)
2. it causes players to exclude various classes from teams(imagine being a casual player with just one class who can't get a team)
3. it contributes to the stagnant play of pvers(lack of variety in builds, lack of knowledge to do anything about it)
3.5. it contributes to the tank or break concept that makes pvers dumb.

At this point I feel that assassins had their fun. It's time to nerf the permasin back to factions release era levels. Yes, I too made an assassin at that time and came to the realization that it's a liability in difficult areas. So you have my sympathy, but the fun should end now. Please devs, turn assassins back into midliners with arrows and spears *or* buff other assassin skills. Be creative, don't destroy the rest of the pve concept with silly over-powered tanking builds. That goes for any class. I suppose I should give a plug for dervishes who need an awful lot of love in pve/pvp as well.

On to the next issue, pve monks. While I think they can be good elites at times, generally speaking they are not clear cut choices for pve monking.. that being healer's boon and unyielding aura. The problem with HB is that it's an enchantment that can be stripped and uses up a slot on the all important monk skill bar. If it goes, so does the ability for you to heal effectively, if it's on your bar.. you're probably lacking something in utility.. mainly hex and condition removal since the vast majority of pve monks don't understand the importance of these skills. I've literally had pve monks tell me that I should bring my own hex or condition removal..well guess what, you win.. I sometimes indulge your type and do this because I won't survive or be useful without it. Just try the pure heals concept in pvp. Hexes and conditions *do* matter, and removal will help a martial class tremendously because such classes are innately prone to the vast selection of hexes and conditions that inhibit a martial class vs a caster. If you try using these other classes in your team build, you will not only benefit from what they have to offer, you will benefit from helping them out. Oh and btw, they generally need less healing. As for UA, the most obvious problem is the -1 pip while in use. Energy mismangement can really inhibit a monk, and it is very easy to goof up when you have the energy regen of a ranger. It also absorbs a slot.. which would probably be taken be a res skill. UA is suitable for res purposes because it has fast activation, but is it a good choice for a pve monk elite? Not necessarily. Yes, I realize that there are numerous res skills available to monks, but that doesn't mean it's wise to use them. This is yet another problem with pve monking. I realize it will probably never go away, but I might as well say something about it. In pvp monks don't bring a res, and that's because they're slow activating skills that can not only be interrupted but place your team mates in harm's way while you're trying to activate them. It really isn't any different in pve, monks generally shouldn't use res skills unless a UA build is viable. Everyone else should bring a res. That said, HB and UA are good skills that are still acceptable for certain areas, but are the standard for irrational reasons that should be kicked to the curb. Like I said earlier, what's wrong with WoH? Yes, WoH has flaws too, but there are few if any skills that can heal as effectively for five energy, hence it's prevelance in arena(and even AB) play...but I must emphasize that WoH is perfectly viable in pve too, just as viable as UA or HB if not more in some cases. Before the release of nightfall, WoH(that you couldn't self target with, you can now :P) was exceedingly common on monk bars because it did the job and guess what.. it still does. Other monk elites I feel are viable for pve use include zealous benediction, peace and harmony and defender's zeal. I'm sure others can be used effectively depending on the situation, but that's the short list.

One other problem I have with pve monking is ray of judgment. This isn't so much a reflection on pvers as it is an objection to an out of balance skill that makes no sense whatsoever in the greater scheme of things. Don't get me wrong, it's good.. I know why people use it.. it's burning and a bunch of ridiculous armor ignoring damage.. but honestly... what on earth were the dev's thinking when they buffed this skill? Now all you need is monks and sins to conquer elite areas... more exclusion. What the hell?

The last bit of my rant is about team play. The game is designed for people to choose different classes for their different strengths and weaknesses to work as a team. Pvers are obsessed with outright damage numbers. There are other ways to defeat foes, such as pressure builds. You don't need to stockpile your skill bar with outright damage skills to be a strong link in the team. Do yourself a favor, look at the class you're using as a whole, look at all the various skills and compare it to other classes. Think in terms of team builds, not what you just *want* to bring. Use your best judgment to bring a skill bar with not only damage if that's your role, but also support if it makes sense. Team success is paramount, not your individual damage numbers.. the game typically won't reward you for producing outright damage numbers, but it *will* reward you if your team succeeds at whatever...

That's it. I think I've said enough.

Nice message. Although im nooby enough to have heard of a "permasin" before, im guessing its an assassin which spams some type of skill......anyway I support your idea, but the only thing I think can be done is changing how the skill ( skills? ) work. This might work, but it will probably just get everyone angry. Farming is just something in MMORPG`s that cant be stopped. Its like the phrase "Noob" and other things, you could censor it, but then people would just say "n00b" and stuff. I know your talking about a specific type of farming build, but what will most likely happen is someone will "n00b" it, and find another way to destroy their own ( and others ) gaming experiance. Although I know that everyone loves ranting everynow and then, and you said for us not to complain, and I support your idea, I must point out that nerfing sin farmers would not get anything accomplished. I know it isnt the same thing, but my whole speech goes for your rants about the monks too. Im just to lazy to type it all out again. Please dont take all this the wrong way, because I understand why you posted this thread, I just thought id get my opinion out there too ^.-

tl;dr, you need to use the conclusion to create an effective summary of your main points, not to blather further.

The problem with pve is that the difficulty of the remaining areas worth doing has increased to the point that unknown players are an unmitigated liability rather than a potential asset, while the novelty has declined to the point that failure is an unspeakably evil waste of time. Anet has tried to increase the total number of available areas via the coin system -- mostly so that pve players aren't clustered in one of four areas -- but it isn't enough to really keep them going at it.

Since pugs are a liability -- it's just a fact, folks, call it buyer's dilemma, the lemon problem, caveat emptor or cave canem -- overpowered pve skills are Anet's way of increasing the value of players to compensate. Nerfing them into the shitter would further annihilate the remaining reason to bring other people instead of AI. In greater detail, Anet is attempting to lower the difficulty in an organic fashion so that players can group without significant risk.

tl;dr version: Increased difficulty and a lack of incentives to replay non-elite hard mode pve areas reduces pugging. Anet is attempting to respond via coins and POWER'D UP pve skills that reduce the effective difficulty of most areas. However, there really isn't much Anet can do about the death of novelty and the diffusion of the remaining player base.

Your problem is that you're a luddite who honestly fears change. Get over it. Also, your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberry. I fart in your general direction -- do savour the zesty lime scent of my flatulence.

WALLS AND WALLS OF TEXT

So, from what I gather, this is pretty much another "Sins and Monks are bad for the game, nerf them please" thread, which is to soon be another in the bunch of previous threads we've had concerning this issue. We know Shadow Form is a serious problem that ANet continues to not address seriously, and we know that Monks have pretty much dominated PvE in both solo and team senses for a long time.

Shadow Form needs a nerf, nothing new there. Some Monk skills can certainly be toned down to make Monks less able in PvE, and for the better.

.

Whew! Don't forget...the game is what you want it to be. Farm/don't farm, you choice. Guild or don't...stay in pre-Searing Ascalon if thats what makes you happy. Its your game and world to be whatever you choose.

I totally agree. Since permasins have become meta, the in-game economy has plummeted. Not only that, but I have noticed much, much, much more of immature players who act like six year olds, but that is beside the point.
Just today, I was doing Slaver's with a PUG, and it really bothered me. People were complaining that we took a half hour to complete Forgewight. Seriously??? It's an elite dungeon. Emphasis on ELITE! It's supposed to challenge players to find creative ways to finish it, not challenge players to use whatever is the current metagame and clear it over and over again, hoping for quicker times. In the process, of course, people start to act quite terribly to each other, for stupid reasons.
I am one of the few players out there that enjoy the skill updates, as they often provide a new way to try things out, and challenge us to stop using our regular builds, and try something different.

1. It's a game, and people have started to take it too seriously. People are farming constantly, and not to mention... try going into an AB or FA game. Players go absolutely insane when they lose a game. "F*** MONK!!!! GO BACK TO WOW!!" "PATHETIC!! THIS TEAM BLOWS!! YOU ALL SUCK"... etc. I enjoy the strategy part of PvP, but in my honest opinion, the PvP community is worse than the PvE community. I have almost stopped playing PvP completely because I can't stand putting up with people.

2. Look at the back of the Guild Wars Prophecies box: "Your skill will be your legend, not hours played".... LIES!! Of course, this is wrong if your skill happens to be Shadow Form. Skills like Shadow Form have taken the skill portion out of the game. People have gone overboard with the speedclears and such that the Shadow Form buff a few months ago has granted. For instance, I once met a guy who had 8 characters on his account. One was a Necromancer. The other seven were Assassins. Each of his characters had only one build - a specific build that was part of the UWSC team. Honestly??? People have started to take farming, speedclears, and Guild Wars in general much to seriously.

And this concludes why I have, for the most part, secluded myself from the entire Guild Wars community.

What you're forgetting is that other players actions often influence how others play the game. 500,000 players might be using a skill for speedclearing, while ten players might be using the skill in a completely different way, and not making it such a significant part of their playing. The skill gets nerfed, the players who were using it in their own unique ways can't use it anymore.

Not to mention, players who open the end chest of the Underworld every 20 minutes get multiple Eternal Swords, Storm Bows, and other rare items. They sell them, value goes down. Other players actually spend hours with an organized, non-gimmick team, and get a rare item. They go to sell the item they thought was worth so much, and it's price has become less than half of what it was not long ago. Example: Elemental Swords. Before EotN: 100k +25 ectos. Now: 25k.

While I understand the logic of leveling the playing field to compensate for lack of incentive.. the problem is not lack of incentive, it's what the game portrays as incentive and what people believe to be incentive.

If you don't change the skill balance, you have a game that doesn't make sense. There's so many useless elements that one has to wonder why it's in the state it's in. NCsoft has made some nice changes in the right direction with paragon and ritualist buffs, and I can appreciate that.. but there's more to be done.

Right back at ya. I don't have a problem with continuous change, I have a problem with stagnation. Which is where pve is at, imho. Take a shower.

Yeah you're completely right about everything u said.
SF needs to be fixed ASAP,being it the main problem of PvE atm.
Fixing it will open more oportunities for other professions,and it will defently get rid of most of the SC's out there(which are completely imbalanced gameplay).
For most teams out there(especially after cry got nerfed),most "non-meta" professions barely see any play in high end groups.Dervs,rits,rangers,eles,they are all being excluded pug-wise.

SF needs to be fixed in order to pugs improve,and the average pve players improve in both knowledge of areas and diferent roles.They already nerfed CoP,so why not fix the root of the problem now...

Quick reply to original rant: It appears you think nerfing permasins will rekindle PvE. It won't. Nerfing permasins will just get rid of people who play permasin. They won't learn to play, they won't join you, you won't have any easier a time finding a group.

If you can't find a way to PvE with the permasins around, you won't when they're gone either.

Wrong.

Nerfing SF will make a shift towards either obby tanking,or more balanced oriented teams.People who are bad obviously will have trouble doing either but hopefully improving as they try diferent builds.

Here's the problem. Most of the time people don't want to wait to fill up an all 8-man party team unless it seriously involves skill like in DoA. And as for RoJ being so imba... CoP is still the flavor of the month and people are still using it more often than RoJ. Why nerf it? It has it's scatter now yet it's still quite useful if used right. Now the problem is you're trying to turn PVE into PVP. The only reason builds like RoJ and CoP and permas are still viable is because the monsters NEVER change. There will ALWAYS be margonites in city, but never stygian creatures there. It's all predictable. This is not the case in high end PVP.

In PVP you have to expect the worst and be prepared for it. You don't know what your opponents are running so your goal is to make a team build that gives you the best chance of winning the match. In PVE, all you have to do is make one good build for an area and use it over and over until it's nerfed. Why? Because the terrorwebs in UW will never change to earth magic. The Margonite anur Ki's will never change to UA monks. The Warriors in FoW will never change to cripslash. The builds are predictable and you only need one build to stop them, hence the reason good all around nuke skills like CoP and RoJ work.

As for nerfing Perma... you can't expect us to go back to the slow ass OB tanks rite? As teh great randy marsh of south park says: "Once you've had internet porn, you just can't go back to playboy."

I'm not partial to any class. Ignore the W/ next to my nick. I'll play anything if it sounds appealing.

However, you are simply wrong. Nerfing permasins *will* contribute to rekindling pve. Key word, rekindle, as if something was lost... and it was, you're clearly admitting it by deduction. People *will* learn to play better, because they'll have to. They *will* join me as they join me even now.. and I *will* have an easier time finding a group because I'll be using classes that people are willing to include. Also, I could certainly play a permasin or monk or whatever happens to be a popular pve meta right now to be included in the craze if that is what I desired to do. It just sounds boring to me, but this isn't just about me.. it's really about the game and if ncsoft wants to keep the ball rolling into next year with the release of GW2 I think a few changes are crucial.

OP skills are OP and need a fix.Period.

SF can be compared to ursan-prenerf,being unnafected by conditions,hexes,and taking little dmg.After ursan got nerfed,people IMPROVED their builds.

No, they just went to the next thing - Shadow Form.

Note to you, magister mundi, if your plan involves

STEP 1) REWIRE HUMANITY TO RESPOND DIFFERENTLY TO INPUT AND BE MORE LIKE ME

you've failed completely. Of course, you'll be all "nu-uh, you be misrepresentin' me!" Remember this line of yours?

NYURRRRRR, wrong, buzzer, you're friggen out.

Look, first things first. A lot of people really do get off to playing permas, ursans, whatgiggliggly ever the pve "meta" is. That's fun for them. Your concept of fun appears to be a world lit only by fire, where everyone cries as a group of wandering monsters brutally sodomizes them for the fortieth time to the tune of a sound track recorded exclusively in flats.

And you know what's grand about an instanced game? Those concepts of fun aren't mutually exclusive. You can enjoy the brisk feeling of having a whole new land enter you, and they can enjoy the joy of repeating the same instance for the eleventy first time today.

To put it ineptly, you, sir, are not the sole arbiter of What Is Fun.

Now, before you blow your keyboard with rage, that doesn't mean that the perma isn't a bit off -- after all, Anet has taken a bat to Shadowform in the past, and they'll no doubt do so again. What it does mean is that perma and it's ilk aren't ipso facto nurf bait.

Finally, you're bonkers if you think the lack of players in non-elite/farm zones isn't the result of a lack of incentives to repeat non-farm/elite areas. Zcoins were specifically created to address this very issue. If you don't understand that, you're literally operating on a different wavelength that seems to be at odds with reality.

Personally, I just think they'll go away angry. Which means you'll still have the same pool of non-permas available to play as you have now. It's amazing how many folks have left GW in disgust for what I consider to be absurd reasons, many of whom I thought would be die hard players to the very bitter end.

It's not like SF needs to be broken to make it possible to do obby. You could ask your guild to start working on it right now. There's absolutely nothing stopping you. If that's what you want, you can do it.

And no- I'm not defending the permasins. I'm just saying that the fact that they exist is not prohibiting you from playing without them, and suggesting that were they not there, the population wouldn't dramatically shift in a more favorable direction.

Oh, for lollers skates.

These are the same people who are willing to run the same zone an infinite number of times for to earn more phat l00tz. Some of these folks have been doing so since Protective Bond was still a viable farm build. They're not going to be instantly converted to your preferred style of play by one nerf.

Note to you: attempt a real life Remove Hex, because you're clearly under the effects of Conjure Phantasm.

Look, it's clear from looking at a monk's skill set that a monk is supposed to be a team's primary support class. Sure there's smiting prayers, but should a single skill(on a class that is widely viewed as mandatory for a team) make elementalists deemed useless in pve? Don't you remember searing flames spam and meteor shower? Maybe it's just me, but I don't get it.

Absolutely not. To be honest, I think the obby tank build is atrocious.. I have a gag reflex when I see that skill bar.(it's equally bad for the poor shmuck who runs it)What I really think people should do is work to use more balanced builds, which I believe to be able to conquer elite areas in pve... and I think the devs should assist with this and promote this idea... but that's all wishful thinking, mainly i'd just like to see some changes and parity and inclusion. Otherwise, I'm honestly puzzled as to why we have these other classes.

Anyway, this was just something that'd been on mind for a while. Thanks all for the feedback, even zesty fart man.

First of all, when we're talking about incentive we're talking about in-game riches. I think we can agree on that, if we can't then we have no business discussing this further. The problem with a pure emphasis on fake moneys is that these farming builds take presidence in one's style of play and people get tired of the game. *Especially* with builds like the permasin which has so much farming potential I don't know that it would do it justice to try to cover it all in one thread. I really don't care about a little farming. I don't care about 600 or 55, etc. Specifically, I'm talking about permasins.

As for me having sympathy, that has everything to do with exclusion of the assassin class in teams and absolutely nothing to do with farming. Take away permasin, make the game more appealing for other people and more importantly prolong the life span of the game for most individuals who find themselves in the farming "rut." As for the downside to removing permasin, I'd really like to see some alternatives to help assassins along, but permasin imho is not the answer.

Mate, I don't think you're making an effort to read and understand what I've been writing. More over, I think you're hittin up the glass pipe.

Was there ONE suggestion made? Most people will agree with some things like Shadow Form needing a nerf, but that wall of text is not going to get many people to read it. Even if they do, forum rules state 1 idea per topic, and I think you put more than 1, if there is even one in there. If you just want to discuss things, Riverside is where it should be done, and there are already numerous topics there on Shadow Form and Ray of Judgement.

It's a rant. I could get into fixes, but that discussion tends to be perpetual. But, I'm sorry if the post is in the wrong place. Perhaps a moderator should move it.

Largely, I agree.

RoJ was a good change when it was made, except that my first response on seeing it was "Isn't the damage just a leetle high for armour-ignoring damage on a Monk?" - and that was before we found out that it didn't scatter. I'd be willing to bet you could cut the damage by a quarter and it would still be a viable elite.

On SF...it's definitely become too good, but I don't think reverting it to Factions release is the answer. Problem with it now is, with the downside, SF is basically a "perma or bust" skill - if you can't perma it, you're highly likely to die when it expires unless you get out of dodge, making it a fairly niche-y skill that isn't really worth fitting into your elite slot when you could be bringing a Critical Agility/Moebius/Death Blossom combination (yes, Assassins can be viable nowadays without perma. People just got stuck in a rut of thinking them a liability without a gimmick, but they really aren't as long as they invest something into keeping themselves alive, and a GPS/DB/MS combination compresses the offensive portion of the bar wonderfully). My solution would be to give it PvP duration, but remove the downside - make it an effective panic button that doesn't just defer the panic to when it expires.

If SF gets nerfed one of three things will happen:

1. We will find a way around the nerf.

2. We will find a way that can do it the job better

3. We will find a new farm

I wouldn't mind a SF nerfing if they made Assassins useful in other areas. Sadly, Sins are better with other weapons and skills than they are with the ones they were designed with. I'm not sure the exact reason why this is, so I can't offer a solution.

Erm... so you present your message... where's the suggestion?
I think your mainly talking about the skills and that they need to change.
If so... then say so and put out your ideas, this thread does this section of the forum no good.

Wrong. I'm using it to mean an opportunity for an interested party to derive utility above and beyond the various costs, including opportunity costs, of pursuing a course of action.

That does not necessarily mean in game wealth.

You're spot on! Couldn't agree more! Why not try some cake instead?

And here you are again, riding the fail boat. I'll use smaller words this time.

People. Enjoy. Farming.

And now I'll expand on those teeny tiny words.

It isn't a rut, a lack of alternatives, or the fear of sudden malevolent action by their Chinese overlords that drives farming, its the sheer desire to acquire. And if that's what people want to do after they've been to the Halls of Moctezuma and the Shores of Tripoli, then bless em!

For most people, whatever it is you're doing -- playing the game again? -- has no appeal. Yeah, I'm sure there exist some people for whom Ruins of Surmia still holds some last wee bit of entertainment value, but for most folks it became an uninteresting sideshow they avoided at all costs four years ago.

For players like me, the novelty hunters, we stopped with the missions a while back and we won't ever be back unless they automagically become new and interesting again. See how that fails the utility analysis without involving cash money?

For the title hunters, they're only interested in ones they haven't gotten the +2 to title for. And those guys aren't going to bother with you, no offense, because they're going to take the most efficient option, the ai, to minimize the time they spend in Yet Another Dreary Mission Outpost. Again, no cash money. Wow, it's almost like people have all sorts of reasons to play the game without wanting to play missions with you!

For the farmers, they don't care for missions unless those missions poop out shiny toys.

You have this ignorant belief ingrained in your teeny tiny skull that less farming == more mission doers. And it makes no sense. Even if the majority of players are farmers, they aren't going to suddenly start doing missions until something they enjoy -- shiny drops or phat l00tz access -- is added to missions. Why? Because they have no incentive to do them, duh. Zcoins are one incentive -- farmers like equipment packs and firework boxes and such because they're valuable. Cool beans! Traveler presents are another incentive, but tied to explorable zones. Whoopie!

I think I did two of each before I said the eff with it.

So, the tl;dr version: Removing perma isn't going to bring people back to the game. Adding new content and new skin drops tied to missions will.

Dude, I'd need, like, a full on dual lobe frontal lobotomy to understand whatever it is you're trying to say.

Sil, each of us who reads your post will grab onto a piece that is within our experience and then we react to the various other issues based on how we happen to play the game. I happen to play mostly H&H these days and farm increasingly little. Yes, I've done some PvP along the way too.

Permasin: Well, sure I've got one. And at one time I did farm myself into the ground with it. I still have couple hundred thanksgiving bags in storage and other stuff in storage I will never use! These days, though, my Assassin is an A/N caster sin for PvE hard mode. No shadow form needed.

IMHO, let people get tired of farming on their own, if they do. Nerfing to force a change in play style is a top down dictator's fist that will annoy more than improve. Also, note that a valid use for permasin is to quickly accrue xp for use in the creation of consumables. ANet created this need, so overuse of some farming build to acquire skill points is ANet's doing, not ours.

Paragon: I use my para a lot in PvE h&h. Surprise, the build is not Imbagon! P/Rit. No Aggressive Refrain either. (gasps of horror from the audience) Don't need it. Thing is, people will stick with cookie cutter builds until they are confident enough to put together their own.

RoJ: I don't know enough about the use of RoJ in groups to say one way or another. I do use it on a smiting monk hero, but I could think of something else. I don't care. However, most of the people out there who play monk as one of their primaries will care a lot!

The devs have a hard job balancing because people have varying levels of experience, skills, and resources and you can play this game so many different ways.

People play games for lots of different reasons.

Some people enjoy exploring and seeing something new. Some people like to really dig into the mechanics and optimize their play, while others see the game as a palette for their creativity. Some people want a challenge, and some people just want a reward structure that they can invest their time in.

So here's the rub:

All of these objectives require fresh content to different degrees. Your explorers need new content all the time; optimizers stick around longer as they'll go deeper into character development; and then you have your farmers, who will stick around for a really long time as long as you give them something to work for.

Once Arena.net decided they weren't going to release any more chapters for GW1, the game was on a clock. It no longer made sense to put a lot of resources into keeping things fresh, so player's clocks started ticking down. Your explorers left, then your optimizers; the players looking for a challenge saw everything they were going to see and moved on. Now, a couple years after the game stopped being supported, what players are left?

Farmers.

Everyone else has moved on; I see people stopping in now and again, like myself, but the people who are still on regularly at this point are almost universally farmers, be it gold farming, title farmers, fame or champ point farmers, or whatever flavor you prefer. When you know that's what your game is going to be long term, that's what you design. EotN set the stage for that walk-off by adding a bunch of grindy content, and the updates since then have been to add more crazy broken skills to let people farm stuff there weren't able to before.

So if it looks like it's a mediocre farming game now, it is. It didn't used to be, but the players who demanded attention to other concerns are gone now. Farmers are all that are left now, and Arena.net would have to be pretty silly to not cater to them at this point.

Buzzzzt. I recall similar argument being passed around when discussing 55hp monks and Cylone/Vigorous wammos.

All those things are not fun to play. They are not "omg its sooo awesome, i cant wait till i perma uw again when i get back from job!" things.

They are, however, most effective farming tools. So they are used almost exclusivelly.

Here is simple test: If people are having fun playing those things, they will continue playing them even after nerf.

It has never happened, they, in turn, just started abusing another build and merily cointined claiming they play it becuase it is intristically very fun way to play game. Which is bullshit, because in moment it is not THE gold-getter anymore, they will simply abandon it, roll new build and continue where they were interrupted.

PvE meta is not about what is fun to play, it is about what is best farming build which is being defended as fun way to play.

PvE fun is just about raising some poinhtless number nowadays. So much for fun game.

And you forgot many kinds of players, and probably tha majority, in your categorisation. I'm a casual player, because I can't invest as much time into the game as I'd wish, which means that for my rate of play, I don't really feel heavily this "lack of new content", I still got a lot to do before GW2. Of course I'm acutely aware of the "desertification" of GW1 because of the reasons you mention (case in point, my guild, but well I'm not too bothered or I'd leave for better shores), but I'll PUG and H/H the rest. GW1 is still very enjoyable to me, and it's only gaming investment I can have given the time I got, if I could I'd do more, in particular to get into PvP.

And I'm sure there are dozens of other examples. Those that love GW1 lore and repeat storylines+quests, and RP. Those that create new "challenges" for themselves. Those that have fun with friends in a group that still plays GW1. Title-hunters who are not farming but simply using stuff like Zquests or special events. Money-makers who take GW1 as a platform to test their economic skills/theories. Etc. etc.

In short: seeking "reward", yes, but not (only) of the e-peen kind.

People always see their side of the GW1 cake but often miss the other parts. "Broken" in the most abtract sense does not solely apply to the game and its mechanics, but to the community of players. I don't know and don't care if the shared responsibility between Anet and players is 25/75 or 50/50, what I subjectively see is that the "good" players want the "bad" players to get better so that Anet can remove what they perceive as bad. In their mind, if Anet were to remove all that is broken, the "bad" players would then start to force themselves to be "good" because they have no choice. Sadly, they won't, they'll die a lot, and in the process a lot of players will laugh at their face, point finders at them and possibly insult them. If this wasn't true, it'd been a long time since players would have taken care of the newcomers. I know Guru is a nasty tip of the GW-community iceberg (as IMHO acknowledged by Anet CRs) but it's only nastier in average, not a counter-example.

A game is made of mechanics AND players, focus on one and the other suffers. There are so many kinds of players in GW1 (both a good and bad thing, depending on what you're expecting from the game) that it's difficult to justify that the game should be one way but not another. Until the day when WE sort out our differences and agree on common grounds (e.g., council of players ). And I strongly agree that it means removing overpowered stuff from PvE, but that alone won't solve the issue. Players don't magically become better when the game changes.

And people won't then QQ about the obby tank?

There was certainly a period between the Ursan and perma mentalities where this happened.

However, one difference there is that the obby-based tank'n'spank was only subjectively better - a good balanced team could often do better than a tank'n'spank group. SF-based speedclear groups, however, are objectively more efficient at what they do.

I agree with what you write in this post. My one question is this, are these areas that get frequently farmed not supposed to be the games elite missions, in each campaign?? I think they are so then why is that you are able to do a speed clear in 30 mins. The consets were added to the game to help PVE not make it so you can do an ELITE area in 20-30 mins.

I used to love this game cause there was always a new way to do something and Elite missions were just that, now hell all you need to do is have 4 skills and guess what you can do anything anywhere in this game. Well anet then why did you make the other 500 skills out there if we only need 4-8 to play the game. I rem doing deep and urgoz and DOA, and learning how to tank the right way and hold argo. And rolling my R/W stance tank into FOW was cool too. but then a good skill got nerfed like whirling defense to 60 seconds. Definately agree with nerfing Elite missions should be exactly that not just normal every day runs that only take 20 mins.

Anyway i have to just say it sums up every single thread made in the next few months. I write less than that in my college assignments.

Great post by the OP. If you think it is too long and you did not read it, there is a 95% chance of you being part of the problem.

After four years of GW I can stand by my following words with no doubt. GW is a social game in which newbies are exposed to a horrible list of myths with little or no sense attached to them. Later in their GW life, the newbies will keep the myths alive and pass them on to a new generation of newbies.

It starts with myths about Heroes, myths about missions (especially bonus triggers), myths about enemy behavior, etc., etc., etc. On top of that there is NOTHING, really NOTHING to counter those myths. Sure, there is the wiki, but it will often lack that one good hint you might really need. (i.e. not the information THAT the Tengu will ruin the bonus in Divinity Coast, but information HOW to prevent that CONSISTENTLY.) Listing the plot and the dialog of a mission is not a guide to defeating it! Sometimes valuable hints are given, but if those hints are not given, the wiki entry is still considered A-ok, exposing the false focus on descriptions instead of real player support. We also got the PvX wiki, which is mostly a place to grab your farming build. So for the newbie, there is almost no way to gain knowledge by reading. As the op said, even the good stuff on PvE is locked inside a tough to penetrate PvP community.

Did you not read what I said? Farmers don't enjoy a specific build, they enjoy the shinies. That would be why I said pve meta, not just perma.

My primary contention is that nerfing perma won't make those folks return to missions because they don't give a hoot about missions, and won't until they have an incentive to do so.

Nerfing the fotm farming build isn't an incentive to play missions, it's a reason to figure out a new farming build.

Hell, look at what happened when Ursan got nerfed. Did those people change the way they played the game? Hell naw! They just waited around and then started doing cryway.

I mean, really, dense much? You want me to hold your hand next time you take a wee to make sure you don't drown?

I recommend writing more, I managed to get a few articles on economics published before I graduated.

Farming DoA with obs flesh tanks and Searing Flames/Channeling took an immensely greater amount of coordination than shadow form. Alot of pugs basically failed at it. UWSC didn't exsit before SF did. So yes, Eliminating SF would have a huge impact.

This isn't one of those "oh my fave skill got killed, but there's a setup that's nearly as good" kindof things. This is paradigm-shifting on the level of ursans, and that is what you would expect from an absolute god-mode skill.

What "journey"? What do you think we're going to do, play the campaign? Give me a break. People farm because they dislike PvP and there's nothing else to do in PvE. WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO DO IN PVE BESIDES FARMING?