Why I think PvE is broken.(rant)

I'm sure this topic has been covered before in length, but this is my own spin on things.. if you don't want to read it, that's your right, please don't complain that it's been said before.

That said.. having played all the expansions and the original(since late '05ish) I've seen a great deal of trends and changes in the game itself as well as the skill meta. Around the time of nightfall's release, I took a hiatus from pve to play pvp and didn't look back for a couple years. Which, BTW, I strongly suggest that pve-only players give serious pvp a shot because there was never a time where I learned more about the game nuances, mechanics and the strengths and weaknesses of individual classes then during this period. I'm also firmly in the belief that the most knowledgeable GW players were or are serious pvpers. Recently(past three months or so), I've made a transition back to pve for something a little different. I would now say I'm quite familiar with current pve skills, builds and tactics. However, I'm alarmed at the way the vast majority of pve is played and I sense there's a lack of variety as well as skill and knowledge on the part of several key classes(i.e. monks).

The first thing that is blatantly obvious to me is what permasins bring to the table. I realize that before permasins, people used obby tanks and terra tanks to conquer difficult areas, i.e domain of anguish. I also realize that people love permasins for the ease of use and the profitability. There's really no end to the ways you can farm with a permasin. Lastly, I understand that assassins are a flawed class that can be a liability in pve as well as pvp(note they are seldom used at all in serious pvp arenas). So in a sense, granting the ability to upkeep shadowform permanently was a gift to people who made assassins without realizing their short comings... but there's several problems with the pve meta related to widespread use of these builds.

One such problem is the obsession with farming. Yes people are mentally hooked on the idea of garnering gold for in-game items. Sometimes this is useful, but life is about the journey not the destination right? People forget the game is about playing the game not finding the quickest route to collecting gold. Often times when I question players about this, they respond to me with "I farm so I can afford to do what I want to do." Ok that's fair, but I don't know how much I believe that, because in my experience people mainly farm to farm more. Think about it, think hard. I've seen more than a few permasin players farm themselves right out of the game. It's so ridiculously easy(yes, easy, i'll cover that later) they get tunnel vision and they get bored with it, so they don't bother to try different classes or builds. If you did this, you did it to yourself. Yes, farming will never go away, a little bit is probably ok and maybe this topic is best covered in another thread.. but it alludes to one of my points about permasin being a problem, and that's that many players don't want to challenge themselves with something that might be slightly more difficult to control than a permasin build that solos(gloom) or gathers aggro(vsf). If you remove all the challenge from the game just to earn gold, I think you're missing the point of the game.. and that is to enjoy the game and not the false sense of satisfaction from earning in-game moneys. Reality check, it doesn't matter what skins you have, it doesn't matter what extras you have(heavy equipment pack, etc.).. what matters is that you had a fun time. If your idea of fun is strictly farming, I can respect that, but really... how many people truly enjoy pure farming and how many people are just getting a false sense of satisfaction from it? If anyone has ideas about turning this into an argument of perception, then I strongly suggest you find a different game, because much more fun can be had elsewhere earning fake moneys in games.

Before I get into my next point, I want to reiterate that using a permasin is indeed easy. For there to be an easy, there must be a hard, and on a relative scale using a permasin is quite easy... and that is exactly why people use permasins. I don't care what build you're using or for what purpose, in all likelyhood you're using it because it's simply(or you believe it to be) an easier choice. The reason people use permasins over obby tanks or even terratanks is simply because it's easier. Sins do it better, right? If you're honestly going to argue that, take a terra or obby tank to a place normally conquered by the coveted permasin and try it. If you say it's easier without a perma, you're a liar and you're calling most pvers liars because they quite obviously find it to be easier as evidenced by it's prevelance. I can micro a permasin in a hero, that should tell you something.

Before it became prevelant, the permasin's role was usually taken by an obby or terra tank. Particularly due to extremely difficult and unforgiving pve areas such as domain of anguish. I'll never forget the opening weekend to that place. So while yes, this next issue was a problem beforehand, it is more a problem than ever before; The tank or break build. This most fragile of pve builds is based on a tank that absorbs aggro and/or damage while a team of 60al casters spam aoe skills to conquer a difficult pve area. While this can and will work with experienced players and careful aggro, it is extremely fragile and prone to party wipes when aggro breaks -- as it often does in HM. This build also enforces a mindset into players that only casters can deal damage and that only straight healing skills are necessary to protect the party. Pve monks often bring HB or UA builds that center around seed of life and/or heal party with poorly thought out utility or versatility. What ever happened to WoH? What's wrong with WoH? I'll tell you, absolutely nothing.. it's great, HB and UA are the flavors of the month. More on narrow-minded pve monking later. The main problem is that tank or break builds are short-sighted, exclusionary, redundant and getting old quick. The rise of the permasin is a huge reason for this. Even in the early days we had bundle tanking(gear or unholy text), but aggro was easier to manage and we still generally had a midline. The paragon did not invent the midline, the ranger is a clear example of a character class designed to be in the midline with respectable armor and possibly short range attacks. These sorts of arrangements can still be used for difficult hard mode areas with more versatile monking builds, two or more defy pain warriors, imbagons, snares, ward eles. etc. Yes, yes they can. Say it with obama now! Not only are midline builds viable, but they generally include more character classes.. I see fewer paragons in the game than any other class, and why? imbagon is clearly an excellent build for these purposes, but nobody wants to use this arrangement. Two words for those of you who don't get it; unstrippable buffs. All it takes is for one or two builds like this to make sense and click, suddenly people will realize it can be done. In the meantime, the run of the mill pver is convinced it won't work, and that is because they are simply ignorant ... and ... why not permasin, it's easy right?

So, to summarize;
I believe the permasin is bad for pve because;
1. it brings a strong emphasis to farming(often making players bored with the game)
2. it causes players to exclude various classes from teams(imagine being a casual player with just one class who can't get a team)
3. it contributes to the stagnant play of pvers(lack of variety in builds, lack of knowledge to do anything about it)
3.5. it contributes to the tank or break concept that makes pvers dumb.

At this point I feel that assassins had their fun. It's time to nerf the permasin back to factions release era levels. Yes, I too made an assassin at that time and came to the realization that it's a liability in difficult areas. So you have my sympathy, but the fun should end now. Please devs, turn assassins back into midliners with arrows and spears *or* buff other assassin skills. Be creative, don't destroy the rest of the pve concept with silly over-powered tanking builds. That goes for any class. I suppose I should give a plug for dervishes who need an awful lot of love in pve/pvp as well.

On to the next issue, pve monks. While I think they can be good elites at times, generally speaking they are not clear cut choices for pve monking.. that being healer's boon and unyielding aura. The problem with HB is that it's an enchantment that can be stripped and uses up a slot on the all important monk skill bar. If it goes, so does the ability for you to heal effectively, if it's on your bar.. you're probably lacking something in utility.. mainly hex and condition removal since the vast majority of pve monks don't understand the importance of these skills. I've literally had pve monks tell me that I should bring my own hex or condition removal..well guess what, you win.. I sometimes indulge your type and do this because I won't survive or be useful without it. Just try the pure heals concept in pvp. Hexes and conditions *do* matter, and removal will help a martial class tremendously because such classes are innately prone to the vast selection of hexes and conditions that inhibit a martial class vs a caster. If you try using these other classes in your team build, you will not only benefit from what they have to offer, you will benefit from helping them out. Oh and btw, they generally need less healing. As for UA, the most obvious problem is the -1 pip while in use. Energy mismangement can really inhibit a monk, and it is very easy to goof up when you have the energy regen of a ranger. It also absorbs a slot.. which would probably be taken be a res skill. UA is suitable for res purposes because it has fast activation, but is it a good choice for a pve monk elite? Not necessarily. Yes, I realize that there are numerous res skills available to monks, but that doesn't mean it's wise to use them. This is yet another problem with pve monking. I realize it will probably never go away, but I might as well say something about it. In pvp monks don't bring a res, and that's because they're slow activating skills that can not only be interrupted but place your team mates in harm's way while you're trying to activate them. It really isn't any different in pve, monks generally shouldn't use res skills unless a UA build is viable. Everyone else should bring a res. That said, HB and UA are good skills that are still acceptable for certain areas, but are the standard for irrational reasons that should be kicked to the curb. Like I said earlier, what's wrong with WoH? Yes, WoH has flaws too, but there are few if any skills that can heal as effectively for five energy, hence it's prevelance in arena(and even AB) play...but I must emphasize that WoH is perfectly viable in pve too, just as viable as UA or HB if not more in some cases. Before the release of nightfall, WoH(that you couldn't self target with, you can now :P) was exceedingly common on monk bars because it did the job and guess what.. it still does. Other monk elites I feel are viable for pve use include zealous benediction, peace and harmony and defender's zeal. I'm sure others can be used effectively depending on the situation, but that's the short list.

One other problem I have with pve monking is ray of judgment. This isn't so much a reflection on pvers as it is an objection to an out of balance skill that makes no sense whatsoever in the greater scheme of things. Don't get me wrong, it's good.. I know why people use it.. it's burning and a bunch of ridiculous armor ignoring damage.. but honestly... what on earth were the dev's thinking when they buffed this skill? Now all you need is monks and sins to conquer elite areas... more exclusion. What the hell?

The last bit of my rant is about team play. The game is designed for people to choose different classes for their different strengths and weaknesses to work as a team. Pvers are obsessed with outright damage numbers. There are other ways to defeat foes, such as pressure builds. You don't need to stockpile your skill bar with outright damage skills to be a strong link in the team. Do yourself a favor, look at the class you're using as a whole, look at all the various skills and compare it to other classes. Think in terms of team builds, not what you just *want* to bring. Use your best judgment to bring a skill bar with not only damage if that's your role, but also support if it makes sense. Team success is paramount, not your individual damage numbers.. the game typically won't reward you for producing outright damage numbers, but it *will* reward you if your team succeeds at whatever...

That's it. I think I've said enough.

Nice message. Although im nooby enough to have heard of a "permasin" before, im guessing its an assassin which spams some type of skill......anyway I support your idea, but the only thing I think can be done is changing how the skill ( skills? ) work. This might work, but it will probably just get everyone angry. Farming is just something in MMORPG`s that cant be stopped. Its like the phrase "Noob" and other things, you could censor it, but then people would just say "n00b" and stuff. I know your talking about a specific type of farming build, but what will most likely happen is someone will "n00b" it, and find another way to destroy their own ( and others ) gaming experiance. Although I know that everyone loves ranting everynow and then, and you said for us not to complain, and I support your idea, I must point out that nerfing sin farmers would not get anything accomplished. I know it isnt the same thing, but my whole speech goes for your rants about the monks too. Im just to lazy to type it all out again. Please dont take all this the wrong way, because I understand why you posted this thread, I just thought id get my opinion out there too ^.-

tl;dr, you need to use the conclusion to create an effective summary of your main points, not to blather further.

The problem with pve is that the difficulty of the remaining areas worth doing has increased to the point that unknown players are an unmitigated liability rather than a potential asset, while the novelty has declined to the point that failure is an unspeakably evil waste of time. Anet has tried to increase the total number of available areas via the coin system -- mostly so that pve players aren't clustered in one of four areas -- but it isn't enough to really keep them going at it.

Since pugs are a liability -- it's just a fact, folks, call it buyer's dilemma, the lemon problem, caveat emptor or cave canem -- overpowered pve skills are Anet's way of increasing the value of players to compensate. Nerfing them into the shitter would further annihilate the remaining reason to bring other people instead of AI. In greater detail, Anet is attempting to lower the difficulty in an organic fashion so that players can group without significant risk.

tl;dr version: Increased difficulty and a lack of incentives to replay non-elite hard mode pve areas reduces pugging. Anet is attempting to respond via coins and POWER'D UP pve skills that reduce the effective difficulty of most areas. However, there really isn't much Anet can do about the death of novelty and the diffusion of the remaining player base.

Your problem is that you're a luddite who honestly fears change. Get over it. Also, your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberry. I fart in your general direction -- do savour the zesty lime scent of my flatulence.

WALLS AND WALLS OF TEXT

So, from what I gather, this is pretty much another "Sins and Monks are bad for the game, nerf them please" thread, which is to soon be another in the bunch of previous threads we've had concerning this issue. We know Shadow Form is a serious problem that ANet continues to not address seriously, and we know that Monks have pretty much dominated PvE in both solo and team senses for a long time.

Shadow Form needs a nerf, nothing new there. Some Monk skills can certainly be toned down to make Monks less able in PvE, and for the better.

.

Whew! Don't forget...the game is what you want it to be. Farm/don't farm, you choice. Guild or don't...stay in pre-Searing Ascalon if thats what makes you happy. Its your game and world to be whatever you choose.

I totally agree. Since permasins have become meta, the in-game economy has plummeted. Not only that, but I have noticed much, much, much more of immature players who act like six year olds, but that is beside the point.
Just today, I was doing Slaver's with a PUG, and it really bothered me. People were complaining that we took a half hour to complete Forgewight. Seriously??? It's an elite dungeon. Emphasis on ELITE! It's supposed to challenge players to find creative ways to finish it, not challenge players to use whatever is the current metagame and clear it over and over again, hoping for quicker times. In the process, of course, people start to act quite terribly to each other, for stupid reasons.
I am one of the few players out there that enjoy the skill updates, as they often provide a new way to try things out, and challenge us to stop using our regular builds, and try something different.

1. It's a game, and people have started to take it too seriously. People are farming constantly, and not to mention... try going into an AB or FA game. Players go absolutely insane when they lose a game. "F*** MONK!!!! GO BACK TO WOW!!" "PATHETIC!! THIS TEAM BLOWS!! YOU ALL SUCK"... etc. I enjoy the strategy part of PvP, but in my honest opinion, the PvP community is worse than the PvE community. I have almost stopped playing PvP completely because I can't stand putting up with people.

2. Look at the back of the Guild Wars Prophecies box: "Your skill will be your legend, not hours played".... LIES!! Of course, this is wrong if your skill happens to be Shadow Form. Skills like Shadow Form have taken the skill portion out of the game. People have gone overboard with the speedclears and such that the Shadow Form buff a few months ago has granted. For instance, I once met a guy who had 8 characters on his account. One was a Necromancer. The other seven were Assassins. Each of his characters had only one build - a specific build that was part of the UWSC team. Honestly??? People have started to take farming, speedclears, and Guild Wars in general much to seriously.

And this concludes why I have, for the most part, secluded myself from the entire Guild Wars community.

What you're forgetting is that other players actions often influence how others play the game. 500,000 players might be using a skill for speedclearing, while ten players might be using the skill in a completely different way, and not making it such a significant part of their playing. The skill gets nerfed, the players who were using it in their own unique ways can't use it anymore.

Not to mention, players who open the end chest of the Underworld every 20 minutes get multiple Eternal Swords, Storm Bows, and other rare items. They sell them, value goes down. Other players actually spend hours with an organized, non-gimmick team, and get a rare item. They go to sell the item they thought was worth so much, and it's price has become less than half of what it was not long ago. Example: Elemental Swords. Before EotN: 100k +25 ectos. Now: 25k.

While I understand the logic of leveling the playing field to compensate for lack of incentive.. the problem is not lack of incentive, it's what the game portrays as incentive and what people believe to be incentive.

If you don't change the skill balance, you have a game that doesn't make sense. There's so many useless elements that one has to wonder why it's in the state it's in. NCsoft has made some nice changes in the right direction with paragon and ritualist buffs, and I can appreciate that.. but there's more to be done.

Right back at ya. I don't have a problem with continuous change, I have a problem with stagnation. Which is where pve is at, imho. Take a shower.

Yeah you're completely right about everything u said.
SF needs to be fixed ASAP,being it the main problem of PvE atm.
Fixing it will open more oportunities for other professions,and it will defently get rid of most of the SC's out there(which are completely imbalanced gameplay).
For most teams out there(especially after cry got nerfed),most "non-meta" professions barely see any play in high end groups.Dervs,rits,rangers,eles,they are all being excluded pug-wise.

SF needs to be fixed in order to pugs improve,and the average pve players improve in both knowledge of areas and diferent roles.They already nerfed CoP,so why not fix the root of the problem now...

Quick reply to original rant: It appears you think nerfing permasins will rekindle PvE. It won't. Nerfing permasins will just get rid of people who play permasin. They won't learn to play, they won't join you, you won't have any easier a time finding a group.

If you can't find a way to PvE with the permasins around, you won't when they're gone either.

Wrong.

Nerfing SF will make a shift towards either obby tanking,or more balanced oriented teams.People who are bad obviously will have trouble doing either but hopefully improving as they try diferent builds.

Here's the problem. Most of the time people don't want to wait to fill up an all 8-man party team unless it seriously involves skill like in DoA. And as for RoJ being so imba... CoP is still the flavor of the month and people are still using it more often than RoJ. Why nerf it? It has it's scatter now yet it's still quite useful if used right. Now the problem is you're trying to turn PVE into PVP. The only reason builds like RoJ and CoP and permas are still viable is because the monsters NEVER change. There will ALWAYS be margonites in city, but never stygian creatures there. It's all predictable. This is not the case in high end PVP.

In PVP you have to expect the worst and be prepared for it. You don't know what your opponents are running so your goal is to make a team build that gives you the best chance of winning the match. In PVE, all you have to do is make one good build for an area and use it over and over until it's nerfed. Why? Because the terrorwebs in UW will never change to earth magic. The Margonite anur Ki's will never change to UA monks. The Warriors in FoW will never change to cripslash. The builds are predictable and you only need one build to stop them, hence the reason good all around nuke skills like CoP and RoJ work.

As for nerfing Perma... you can't expect us to go back to the slow ass OB tanks rite? As teh great randy marsh of south park says: "Once you've had internet porn, you just can't go back to playboy."

I'm not partial to any class. Ignore the W/ next to my nick. I'll play anything if it sounds appealing.

However, you are simply wrong. Nerfing permasins *will* contribute to rekindling pve. Key word, rekindle, as if something was lost... and it was, you're clearly admitting it by deduction. People *will* learn to play better, because they'll have to. They *will* join me as they join me even now.. and I *will* have an easier time finding a group because I'll be using classes that people are willing to include. Also, I could certainly play a permasin or monk or whatever happens to be a popular pve meta right now to be included in the craze if that is what I desired to do. It just sounds boring to me, but this isn't just about me.. it's really about the game and if ncsoft wants to keep the ball rolling into next year with the release of GW2 I think a few changes are crucial.

OP skills are OP and need a fix.Period.

SF can be compared to ursan-prenerf,being unnafected by conditions,hexes,and taking little dmg.After ursan got nerfed,people IMPROVED their builds.

No, they just went to the next thing - Shadow Form.

Note to you, magister mundi, if your plan involves

STEP 1) REWIRE HUMANITY TO RESPOND DIFFERENTLY TO INPUT AND BE MORE LIKE ME

you've failed completely. Of course, you'll be all "nu-uh, you be misrepresentin' me!" Remember this line of yours?

NYURRRRRR, wrong, buzzer, you're friggen out.

Look, first things first. A lot of people really do get off to playing permas, ursans, whatgiggliggly ever the pve "meta" is. That's fun for them. Your concept of fun appears to be a world lit only by fire, where everyone cries as a group of wandering monsters brutally sodomizes them for the fortieth time to the tune of a sound track recorded exclusively in flats.

And you know what's grand about an instanced game? Those concepts of fun aren't mutually exclusive. You can enjoy the brisk feeling of having a whole new land enter you, and they can enjoy the joy of repeating the same instance for the eleventy first time today.

To put it ineptly, you, sir, are not the sole arbiter of What Is Fun.

Now, before you blow your keyboard with rage, that doesn't mean that the perma isn't a bit off -- after all, Anet has taken a bat to Shadowform in the past, and they'll no doubt do so again. What it does mean is that perma and it's ilk aren't ipso facto nurf bait.

Finally, you're bonkers if you think the lack of players in non-elite/farm zones isn't the result of a lack of incentives to repeat non-farm/elite areas. Zcoins were specifically created to address this very issue. If you don't understand that, you're literally operating on a different wavelength that seems to be at odds with reality.

Personally, I just think they'll go away angry. Which means you'll still have the same pool of non-permas available to play as you have now. It's amazing how many folks have left GW in disgust for what I consider to be absurd reasons, many of whom I thought would be die hard players to the very bitter end.

It's not like SF needs to be broken to make it possible to do obby. You could ask your guild to start working on it right now. There's absolutely nothing stopping you. If that's what you want, you can do it.

And no- I'm not defending the permasins. I'm just saying that the fact that they exist is not prohibiting you from playing without them, and suggesting that were they not there, the population wouldn't dramatically shift in a more favorable direction.

Oh, for lollers skates.

These are the same people who are willing to run the same zone an infinite number of times for to earn more phat l00tz. Some of these folks have been doing so since Protective Bond was still a viable farm build. They're not going to be instantly converted to your preferred style of play by one nerf.

Note to you: attempt a real life Remove Hex, because you're clearly under the effects of Conjure Phantasm.

Look, it's clear from looking at a monk's skill set that a monk is supposed to be a team's primary support class. Sure there's smiting prayers, but should a single skill(on a class that is widely viewed as mandatory for a team) make elementalists deemed useless in pve? Don't you remember searing flames spam and meteor shower? Maybe it's just me, but I don't get it.

Absolutely not. To be honest, I think the obby tank build is atrocious.. I have a gag reflex when I see that skill bar.(it's equally bad for the poor shmuck who runs it)What I really think people should do is work to use more balanced builds, which I believe to be able to conquer elite areas in pve... and I think the devs should assist with this and promote this idea... but that's all wishful thinking, mainly i'd just like to see some changes and parity and inclusion. Otherwise, I'm honestly puzzled as to why we have these other classes.

Anyway, this was just something that'd been on mind for a while. Thanks all for the feedback, even zesty fart man.

First of all, when we're talking about incentive we're talking about in-game riches. I think we can agree on that, if we can't then we have no business discussing this further. The problem with a pure emphasis on fake moneys is that these farming builds take presidence in one's style of play and people get tired of the game. *Especially* with builds like the permasin which has so much farming potential I don't know that it would do it justice to try to cover it all in one thread. I really don't care about a little farming. I don't care about 600 or 55, etc. Specifically, I'm talking about permasins.

As for me having sympathy, that has everything to do with exclusion of the assassin class in teams and absolutely nothing to do with farming. Take away permasin, make the game more appealing for other people and more importantly prolong the life span of the game for most individuals who find themselves in the farming "rut." As for the downside to removing permasin, I'd really like to see some alternatives to help assassins along, but permasin imho is not the answer.

Mate, I don't think you're making an effort to read and understand what I've been writing. More over, I think you're hittin up the glass pipe.