Zaishen Service The Biggest Scam of GW?

As we all know, the Zaishen Service is a service used to increase the Zaishen Rank of the service provider using the keys of the servee. What many don't know is that it is currently the largest scam in GW.

How is it a scam? Well it isn't directly, in case people haven't noticed the majority of the Zaishen Service providers do not steal a good drop, such as an everlasting, if it drops for the servee. However it is a complete scam indirectly by extoring cash, in this case Z Keys from the client in exchange for lesser value items.

There is a reason there are so many service threads. This is because it has been so effective at reducing the cost needed to advance in Z Rank. But it has its drawbacks, at the clients expense.

The current Z Service exchange rate is the following:

1. The client gives 1 Z Key to the Provider
2. The provider uses the clients key and 1 of his own.
3. The provider drops both Z Chest drops for the client
4. The provider advances 10 points in the Z title track at the price of 1 Z Key
5. The client proceeds to pick up 2 creme brulees with a net value of 600g
6. The client is 4k - 600g = 3.4k in the hole, the provider has made a 4k profit, in terms of title points.

Now I understand not every drop is a creme brulee, but I have taken that into account. I have used over 7500 Z Keys myself and currently have the Zaishen Title r10 (Champion) using keys I bought purely out of my pocket, and have recorded my drop rate.

Out of all my my Keys I ended up with the following:

2 Everlasting Tonics (Mursaat, Ooze)
1 Voltaic Spear (r11)
3 Chaos Axe (r9,10,10)
34 Celestial Weapons (Varies reqs)
64 Monthly Tonics
67 Beetle Juice Tonics
81 Transmog and Yuletide Tonics
131 Drops with a value 20k (Varies)
167 Lockpicks
813 Tomes (Varies)
1800 Unid Golds (merchant food)
2140 Creme Brulee
2196 Flasks of Firewater

Total: 7500 drops give or take a few

Adding up the total value of the above comes to a total of:
80e+50e+40e+60e+8e+8e+650e+42e+122e+91e+257e+542e
Total : 1950e worth of Zaishen Drops
Total Invested: 7500e~
Thus I lost 5550e (Assuming I sold all the items, and sold the mechant golds unid for 7=4k, and took all the time to sell the items)

For comparison purposes I checked the drop data on Wiki which can be found here:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zaishen_Chest/Drop_rate

The result was similar to my findings with the Z Key user getting back approximatly 26% percent of what He/She put into the title. This is not always the case, but often is. The probability of you eventually getting this low amount back is garunteed.

On the other hand Zaishen service providers are getting exactly 50% back of what He/She puts into the title. Thus Zaishen Service providers are able to save 25% more than normal users when going for their title ultimatly leading them to save 50% on their title overall. They can max the Zaishen title for half, 10,000e instead of paying the full price.

How do they accomplish this? By fooling you, the money saved comes from somewhere and it isnt out of their pockets. It's out of yours, every time they "service" 1 of your keys they make 4k and you lose 3.4k~.

This needs to come to a stop this service idea has gone too far. I question why it is even allowed on the ventari Service Section.

Rule 10 from Ventari's Corner Guidelines states the following:

10. Illegal trades
The following may not be traded or sold:
lottery" tickets or other similar "chances to win".
The Zaishen Service itself is a lottery. It offers a chance to win, an everlasting tonic or fancy weapon, for the ticket price of a Z Key. This Service goes directly against the rules policy yet remains immune to being outlawed. This needs to change.

The rule can be found here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10387865

Remeber folks the zaishen service is only so prominent because it has been so successful, by discontinuing the service you will prevent them from scamming. The drop rate is never in your favor and you will always lose. You allow them to achive high ranks of Zaishen with minimal effort at your expense.

Maybe I'm just QQing about paying the normal amount for my title like the majority of the honorable folks in GW. Or maybe I'm just trying to save you all from being scammed time and time again. Sell your keys if you want to buy a nice item, Use them if you want the title, but don't "service" them because in the end, you are the ones serving them.

EDIT:
If it was true, that Clients only wanted drops, and providers only wanted title points then it would be the following price format:

1. Client gives 1 key to provider
2. Provider uses clients key and 3 of his own keys
3. Provider drops all 4 drops
4. Client picks up all 4 drops, and repeats from step 1

Since you get 26%~ back normally would take x4 the drops to get back, on average what you put in. Since it is 1 Client key, per 1 of provider key, instead of 3 provider keys, the idea of client only wants items, and provider only wants points doesnt hold up. The provider clearly wants to take advantage of the client by giving the client a less than satisfying retention.
I understand the logic of why someone might do this service, what I don't understand is why for this price.

The break even point for both parties is 1 Client Key for every 4 Provider Keys. That's no mystery it's just math. The provider gets a constant flow of points, with 5 points free for every 3 keys he uses. The client breaks even, or occasionally wins, occasionally loses if his luck is bad that day. That would be fair and maybe worth peoples time. As it is now, the client really cannot win. Demand more from your providers or don't use this service. Even 1 key client per 3 keys provider where the provider keeps 1 of the drops and the client gets 3 would be closer to the odds of winning in many low end casino games.
Discuss....

This is not a scam, and there are a host of logical fallacies in your post.

The service is voluntary, both parties exchange goods and services upon terms agreed to beforehand. The only way it would be a scam is if either party broke the terms of the agreement.

You know full well what you are getting into when you do it, and the risk involved.

/discuss

I see no issue with it. It's a game of chance. The chances of a good reward are slim, but can be worthwhile. Both parties are happy, so need to do anything about it.

Lol its pretty obvious the person giving the keys likes playing the lottery

Care to explain my illogical remarks?
Maybe scam is open to interpretation of its meaning, but it is clear extortion and violates the ventari section rules. I know from experience with dealing from the clients that the majority of them are not happy with the result. Many are fooled thinking that with 40 or fewer keys they will get an everlasting tonic and a voltaic or 2.

It's a gentleman's agreement and it doesn't adversely affect anybody who is not involved therefore there is no problem.

If this is such an cheap and effective exploit of the players or the game then the number of ZChest services will naturally boom as more people try to 'abuse' it. Each individual person offering these services will have to up their game somehow - if they want to compete - making it less and less economical for them.

I agree, it may sound like a good deal but if you do some maths then you'll realize it's a big piece of SCAM

Not really, no. They are or should be self-evident, and I don't have the time right now.

The 2 statements I bolded above are false, though. The first is false by definition, and the second because you are not a Ventari moderator.

As I mentioned in my original post this should be a wakeup call for people involved, maybe now they will think twice before getting invlolved in a lose- lose situation.

and tbh it has a great affect on everyone who has invested in Z title in GW. People not doing the service have to work twice as hard to accomplish the titles Zaishen Service people just extort from other players

Technically opening a chest is a "lottery" as well, so if I sold you a phantom key for 800 gold and you went into the underworld and got a crappy gold that you sell for 500 gold am I scamming you?

No because it's not a service.

The Zaishen Service is like paying for an overpriced lottery ticket

Absolute value of the items involved is irrelevant.

What you have here are two parties that both want to expend their Z-keys, but are after different things. Party A wants items and party B wants rank points. The keys would be expended either way. The service allows party A to double the number of items they receive while allowing party B to double the amount of points they get - without requiring any extra expenditure of keys on either party's part.

Of course, there is a degree of risk involved in the service, especially for party A who has to give his keys to party B and runs the risk of party B picking up any decent drops. But that is another issue.

People would never trade their Z Key strait up for a r13 Spiked Axe Unid. What we have is person A trying to get free title points hoping that person B is stupid enough to belive he will end up with more money than he started with.

I do enjoy your warning

Therefore, by using thus logic, the merchants have been getting away with murder for years selling us keys for crappy chest drops.

Zaishen and chest opening is like playing the lottery (as mentioned), pontoon/blackjack etc etc. Gambling establishments (which the merchants could be called one) will always make their money on people taking the chance to win.

I'd feel like one hell of a righteously asinine fool if i wasted that much on a pve emote too, dude.

It's okay.

Then using your zkeys directly on the chest is also a scam, hey 99% of the drops are way cheaper than the cost of the z-key. With the zaishen service you get 2 zkeys used at the price of only one. Yes, shit drops, but you get double the drops from the chest so, if you don't care about the zaishen title, I don't get why you calling this a scam.

Go cry a-net about the z-chest being a scam too then.

Taken from google dictionary:
Scam: victimize, deprive of by deceit
Extort:To secure (money, favours, etc) through deceit

Neither of those definitions match what you have written above. The Zaishen Chest by itself is a self money sink, where the money lost comes directly from your pocket and doesn't affect anyone else. The Zaishen Service is a scam/extortion because it victomizes the client.

If it was true, that Clients only wanted drops, and providers only wanted title points then it would be the following price format:

1. Client gives 1 key to provider
2. Provider uses clients key and 3 of his own keys
3. Provider drops all 4 drops
4. Client picks up all 4 drops, and repeats from step 1

Since you get 26%~ back normally would take x4 the drops to get back, on average what you put in. Since its Clients key per 1 of providers, key instead of 3, the idea of client only wants items and provider only wants points doesnt hold up. The provider clearly wants to take advantage of the client by giving the client a less than satisfying retention.

sounds like your QQing because you bought all you z-keys and found out theres a better way to do it.

This is in no way a scam but a game of chance that both people must agree too and its not always extortion, mabey i give someone 1 key and i get an everlasting or other rare weapon, an i extorting now?

Face it, Zaishen Service people don't do the service because they want to help the client get Everlasting tonics. They do it because it's cheaper for them to use other peoples money to advance in their ranks.

oh and also, your post makes no sence because you put yourself in the position of the client, who is the 1 getting extorted not the 1 extorting.

also, noone has really responded to it being against Ventari Section rules, can we get a mod in here and either,
A: remove the rule
B: remove Z service from ventari

You are giving the zkeys a set value when they are worth whatever a person is willing to pay for them. If one person wants the points and one person just wants the drops then the arrangement is quite fair. It's not a scam.

the dollar bill is just a piece of paper, a banana is just a piece of fruit. They are only worth what people think they are worth, but remains, for the most part, constant. Z Keys and the drops from the Z Chest do too.

and I have just explained in an above post why it is nowhere close to fair, as a Client = drops, Provider = Points situation. Perhaps I will edit my original post and rework that fact in.

I get your point, and I assume everyone else here gets it, but what you are talking about isnt a Scam. Like others have said, both parties knows what they are getting into, they have an agreement about the service that is going to happen, therefore no one is SCAMing, BUT, you are just helping others, and give them a headsup about it, therefore in my opinion you should change the title , and the inside of your post, warnning people about what they are getting into, instead of telling them they are getting scarmed, because thats pretty much what you do.
Thats a nice thing what you just did here, doesnt really help me, but thanks :]

I love this topic

gg sir, I'm tired of listening to ppl in game complaining of wasting the keys on the service.
Gonna spam the link to every single QQ I hear in game^^

When you open a chest you get :
- 5 points
- one item

Some people only want the drops, and some people only want the points. What's the problem if both agree to get twice as much of what they want ?

I'll be nice and tell you where your logic fails: everything depends on how much you think the points are worth, and to some people, points are worthless.

Opening the zchest for drops is a gamble, you won't necessarily get your money back, you're totally missing the point of this system.

If people refused to give back the drops after getting them, it would be a scam, as it is now, it's just a gamble. Anyone who thinks the zchest will make him rich takes a (great) risk, but it's not like he's not aware of it.

Heh, if you have suggestions for what to do with in game wealth these days, please do enlighten us.
--

OP: There's no logical flaws in your reasoning. The thing is, some people don't play logically. It's not a scam, some people are just bad at statistics / like to gamble with bad odds.

Ah, but those people should realise other people value points, and so trade any points at market value for things they do want.

Well, the topic title is: "...Scam of GW.", and should be "..Scam of GWGuru." Since maybe can be tagged as "scam" here at the forums for some awesome rule that maybe needs a fix.

That's why I mentioned the QQing, and this service isn't a scam and is not breaking any game rule.

Yet again a QQ thread, "oh man I wasted my money on z-keys and those guys are getting the same at half the price !!1!1!!one!"...

For those to whom the points are worthless to, this doesn't apply. Only the side using the keys care about the points, the others care about getting good drops. What you misunderstand is that people want good, keyword there, good drops. People don't want r13 Poop Axe of Pooping. They want r9 Eternal Blade of Enchanting, because even if they prefer the looks of r13 Poop Axe they can sell e blade for more and buy all the poop axes they want.And it is shown time and time again it is more effective to save for the item you want, then to try to get it from the Z Chest.

Unlike the lottery you just cant win. Even if you get lucky and service 40 keys and get an EL Tonic, what have you won, 20e? At least in the real lottery you can pay 5 bucks and win 34million, or something like that ^.

And the service doubles their chance of getting a good drop. For no loss to themself except zaishen points they didn't want.

It's pretty simple, basic economic theory really.

The only reason the O.P. is posting is because he sees other people catching up to his Zaishen title.

Zaishen service is not a scam. Both sides agree to what they are going to get before the transaction takes place. One guy gets xtra points the other guy gets an extra drop. When that happens both parties are happy. The person who isn't happy is Teal because he already used a ton of zkeys on the title.... come on admit it Teal...

The poster (Teal) is complaining because he already used zkeys to get half the max title. The original post has nothing to do with a scam. It is someone just complaining...

funny i thought it was great
gave a guy 5 of my keys he used 5 of his i got a EL tonic
sold said tonic haven't touched the service since
the keys cost me nothing
i won them by messing around in z elite testing some builds lol
not sure why u think it's a scam
it's a gamble
the odds are not in ur favor but u compared this to the lotto... lotto odds are in the millions to win... the z chest more like in the hundreds to win... comparing odds to payout it's about the same
get over it stop whining and stfu

Although it does make sense,ive used those services for my zkey=whatever drops +2,5k.
So i was getting 2,5k back and having the chance of getting a decent item.Although it may be luck or not,i got 1 EL doing that and about 300k from the service guy providing around 100keys.
Good?yes.
lucky?probably.

I think you pretty much explained why this isnt a scam. If someone thinks theyll get an EL tonic or voltaic from 40 tonics then they simply dont know the odds. thats no-ones fault but there own. GW is not obligated to assure certain return on keys or chests or anything else for that matter.


Cronk

Not happy with the results??? who gives a S%*T. Im pissed every time i get an onyx from an elite end chest. WOE IS ME!!!!! grow up already. its a game.

There is obviously an element of resentment towards people who are catching up because of this service but the fact remains its a scam and the math prooves it. If it was just a 1 guy gets extra points other guys gets extra drops basis, it would be 1 client key for every 3 of the providers.

EDIT: if I really cared that much I would go sell a shiroken or something and go service 2500 keys and max the title :P I really am trying to help people get the most out of their money w/o, in my opinion, cheating.

The market dictates the prices. What you feel is fair for a ratio of points to drops is different than what other people believe. Ectos to 1 person are 4k each and to someone else 4.25k each. Some people would rather sell the ectos faster and not waste time getting an extra 250 gold.

The point is there is no scam if both parties walk away happy. I am sure if 1zkey:2drops was such a good deal there would be tons of people lining up to do it thus driving people to offer 1:3 or even more.

There is no scam and calling it a scam does nothing but makes doing the zaishen service harder to do, which is your goal anyway, to preserve your zaishen title.

The above pretty much sums up that in the long term people aren't happy with the end result, though I do agree Wasabi, that if it was that great there would be tons of people still lining up to do it. I think there are however far too many. One might argue, that by arguing my point you are just trying to make the zaishen service easier to do which is your goal anyway, to increase your zaishen title. Yes I heard you were doing it, but no that isn't why. it was because I went to Service section and saw the whole page littered with "Da Best Z Service Eva" threads. The value of an item to an individual doesn't matter if it doesnt match the value in everyone elses opinions. Even if you hate the voltaic spear that dropped for you it's still a more effective use of it to sell it for 50e, then use the money to buy items you like more. Rather han to just throw it all away or trade for a piece of junk that you could have had 50 of. If you like crappy unid golds and creme brulee why not just buy them?

Oh no, Joe Shmoe isn't getting as much profit out of a service as he was aiming for when he signed up knowing that the chance of making the profit he wants is very low. CALL THE SCAM POLICE.

I want an Eternal Blade every time I clear UW without Shadow Form nonsense. Stop scamming me ArenaNet.

people like to gamble, this is the thing you must understand first

1,the z service dubles their chance to win while they kinda "lose" their progress on a title they don't care about
2,your problem is that in your eyes the 5 zpoints worth 3 drops and your are jealous because the service guys get them for one
3,once again, the ppl who participate in this service are happy with their +1 drop because the points mean nothing to them


easy math and it is not a scam just you fail...


(jamika: olyan buta vagy, mint a tök és amit nem értesz egyből elutasítod...)