UWSC going to be nerfed?

Stop right there. People playing together has nothing to do with the statement which you quoted me. Please re-read.

Fingers Crossed they will.

It's about time they nerfed the perma crap... For too many reasons to mention.

There are many different SF builds just like there are many different 55/105 builds.

Okay, I have tried to be pragmatic with my viewpoints on Shadow Form and the likes. Sit in the middle as it were.

But

In my travels on working on my survivor, I ended up in Doomlore American District One. To be confronted with an explosion of messaging in Local Chat:

• Running UW (Survivors, Spider Cap etc) 28k/7 ecto
• Running Duncan 20k/5 ecto
• Running Bogroots
• Running Slavers
• Running This
• Running That
• Running Timbuk-flipping-too 100k yadeyah
• A/Mo LF SoOSC
• GLF A/P SoOSC
• Forming Kathandrax Sinway - need......

Seeing that some of these certain team builds have just appeared on Pvx over the last few days/weeks, this is now stupid. Just...stupid. Now that the masses (PuGs) are out and playing with this, it just has to be a matter of time before ANet has to pull the plug on this. One skill cannot rule the entire frigging game, as it is at the moment (I never quite appreciated the volumes going on until now tbh).

Apologies if some of this is old news (likely) but it's rapidly becoming Assassin Wars: Daggers of the North and not Guild Wars.

(I also kinda felt sorry for the poor little monk posting "Running CoF 2k" in the middle of all that spam too).

Dungeon runs are mostly done with 600/smite...perma either can't run them or can't do it effectively without a whole team of them. Consumables are also required for effective "sinway" clearing....all those people doing dungeon perma speed clears are essentially draining their time and income (for consumables) for an extremely small chance of getting the end chest rare items. Unlike the UWSC dungeon speed clears generally don't generate a profit for those people, the time spent continously farming and paying for consumables usually out weighs the benefit. People I know only do them because they want to "get their own rare item" rather than pay for one even though its cheaper to just buy it.

The real problems is that those dungeons have ZERO incentives for people to do them normally. Long and stressful, shit drop, and completely unfriendly to pugs with all the artificial stat pump monsters, crazy boss that need specific planing and traps everywhere. Those people that get runs are not pugs being lazy, its people that literally gave up on pugging those areas thanks to the design. Nerfing SF and 600Smite would do nothing except just turn doomlore into an empty outpost just like what the Ursan nerf did to DoA....but in this case it cannot be justified because dungeons are NOT end game areas. (Or if they are...the rewards are totally not proportionate to the difficulty)

QFT. I H/H frostmaws HM, and do you know what I got for it? Two diamonds and a pick. I had to lol. Filled my book, got my masters of the north points and I've never returned. Same with pretty much every other dungeon. Except maybe duncan's. A guarenteed hero armour is probably the best thing I've ever gotten from a dungeon chest.Though I got to say that frostmaws is actually a lot easier than say forgewright or kathandrax, just cause H/H's are crap at dodging aoe and traps.

Knowing what I do now, I'd have saved myself the effort and just got the whole lot run. As is, I filled my nm and hm books and got my master points and never set foot in a dungeon since. And I see no reason to do so in future either.

Take away runners, and I reckon the only dungeon that'll see much action are CoF (easy and close), slavers (VSF only) and HoS (nm, cause you have to do it to finish eotn). The others will only see small niche groups if any at all.

Yeah, so maybe something needs to be done to a game with big enough problems that people never want to go back to play content again. I don't think the answer is 'introduce invincible farmers and gimmicks'.

There is no "maybe" about it. I really don't care if they nerf shadow form etc. Even though I do perma farm I agree that is over powered.

But I firmly believe they have left it in place because its existence hides huge flaws in the game.

Dungeons and high end areas are such that pugs and h/h are very difficult while certain solo builds are effortless. Meanwhile the rewards and drops are so bad that even if these areas were redesigned to be only moderately difficult for groups they would not be worth wasting time on.

For this reason I doubt very much we will see a nerf to perma and other such builds. It would allow the flaws in the game to become so obvious that a huge number of people would just stop playing.

It is obvious they simply don't have the time or resources to fix such broken areas. So I doubt we will see any major nerf to any solo run ability.

Unfortunately, I've never seen a game successfully pull that off, much less an MMO. And practically, if you can't pull that off, you shoot for the greatest retention/repeat customer. So any solution that involves "[the majority] should just quit the game", while it might suit the higher end players like us, is a bad idea in any sort of business sense.

Then it looks like we need to get right on that, eh?

For GW, a start would be just easing up on the high-end areas in NM. This is what they started with DoA but didn't really follow through with the other higher-end areas, and it would go a long way in starting in improving PvE.

But yes, I will say that if they don't want to persue in HM that they should indeed quit the game. Not because "they're not catered for" or because "they should quit the game" but because they beat it. GW doesn't have any form of PvE endgame sans achievement/money farming, and that's not really an endgame.

Sure there could be a bit more replayability if they were a better player, but this is the same of nearly every game with multiple difficulties, going all the way back with Doom. But since it's just a reset of the game with tougher bad guys most aren't upset to be missing out on it.

The difference between Doom and GW is that doom is single player (IPX multiplayer mode notwithstanding. Remember that?), whereas GW has a social aspect. To give up on the game means leaving behind the socialization in it (and it does exist, at least in the good guilds), so they have an impetus to stay, but if they can't do anything, they get frustrated, take up some easy farm or something (until the QQers get it nerfbatted) or whatever. The important part, from Anet's standpoint, is to make sure they don't end up with a bad taste in their mouth, because they are the majority and Anet needs them to buy GW2. If getting a pair of monks to run them through dungeons for the last year of server-life makes them buy GW2, that's a good thing.

Again, the same position could be taken towards the hardcore players. They finished HM mode, they beat it, so they should move on to another game. Hell, I'm at that point now that I finished my GW bucket list (Monkeyman went down last night).

You're right. So le's look at some other games that are pretty good at catering to multiple skill levels that also have a social aspect.

There's Left 4 Dead. Thousands of players with varying skill levels, and are all catered to via for the difficulty settings within the game, from ultra casual to to ultra hardcore.

Granted it's a shooter, so a bit tougher to compare to - so let's look at WoW. Way back in the day, and even with The Burning Crusade, all of WoW's endgame content could only be completed with a heavy time investment and dedication. All of the endgame raids were catered only to players with a lot more free time and skill (skill in wow, lolrite?). At the release of Wrath, things were pretty newbie friendly. Then hard modes became a bit more fine-tuned and it's becoming a bit reminiscient of the old 40man days. Now many more players are able to even see the endgame raids, while the people looking more for a challenge are also better satisfied.

Precisely why both groups need to be catered to, and while it's tough the payoff is huge. Both groups have something the developers need.

I only have a few (statistically insignificant) friends who play WoW, but to hear them tell it, they've done precisely what you're advocating against: eased up the game to be more accessible, all the way to the end. Maybe they did it in a more balanced fashion, since said friends still play, but that may just be the addiction factor.


And that is the real trick, and at this point, it seems it would require a huge amount of work on Anet's part that they don't have the manpower (or inclination, I'd wager) to put into it.

Swinging the nerfbat on dungeon runs, however, does not cater to any group. Not the uber-hardcore who actually think they're fun, since they don't need to get the runs (if they can't find a group, that's an issue of their numbers, not what anyone else is doing). Not the runners. Not those buying the runs. The only concerns that are served are those of individuals who are primarily concerned with their prestigious ones-and-zeros-that-look-pretty.

As opposed to what it used to be - i.e. STRICTLY for the hardcore - it's a hell of a lot better. It's still not as challenging and rewarding as it once was, but now more and more players are actually able to step foot into the content and kill a boss in a raid.

This was WoW's fault in the beginning: Only catering to the hardcore. While their attempts to cater to both are a bit rusty, it's still great to see Blizzard take action.

I'm only against because I can't really see any reason not to - It's not just SF either, SF is only the most widespread (maybe?) at this point.

I'm just one who can't see the balance of allowing less than three people to do the job of 8.

I agree, at least in principle (I don't like WoW). Making the high-end more accessible is preferable than making the less hardcore leave the game.

Most of those don't involve SF at all. And "balance?" That word gets used a lot in this debate, but without any real contextual definition. What are you balancing between? In PvP it has a context between the two teams. So what has to be balanced in PvE? Players vs. Monsters? Good luck with that. 600/Smite or Perma are nothing compard to an extra 5 or more pips of regen, one-hit kills, and apparent immunity to environmental effects and DP. With NF and especially EotN, Anet went for the low hanging fruit of confusing "challenge" with "ridiculous stat buffs" and even more obnoxious monster skills. Balance between the classes? It'll never happen as long as there are classes. Every role for every class requires its own skillset.

So what do you mean by "balance?"

I don't want to get into specifics because I don't want this derailment to continue, but I can remind you of a few things.

We both want a better PvE. We both want PvE to be more intelligent and skillful. But we're both realistic about the situation and know that we're not going to get that for GW1.

Because of that, we both want something to happen to the current situation. But what we want is different from the other's and no amount of quote wars is going to change either opinion.

I don't think it's a derailment. It's about UWSC being nerfed in the name of "balance." I wasn't asking what you meant as a challenge. You just seem to be one of the few with a stance on the issue on either side who can make a logically consistent argument, so I'm sincerely interested in your POV on the matter. If you don't want to get into it, though, that's your prerogative.

If any character with any profession and all skills can't join any team to do any thing, then that's a reason to changed, change, change and changed until it happens.

That is already possible, it's called friends, guild, alliance, heroes and henchmen.

You don't even need the first three ones if you stay in eotn.

That's an interesting concept and, strictly speaking, it does seem that an argument could be made that it is the ultimate balance. Then you end up with something like Final Fantasy Tactics, though, where there's little difference between characters but their skills... at which point, the player who doesn't have the right skill rather than the right class is still left out, and you lose a lot of variety.
Still, I guess it's an option (not for GW, obviously. Too late for that now that ursan is dead).

You can already.

There is nothing stopping anyone from forming groups to do UW with any of the professions.


Begin Rant:

UWSC groups are forming up teams based on team builds that work, some can do so at record times and they have been able to do so through continuous repetition, but not everyone can.

People have wanted this or that because they fail to look at professions for what they are different cards from a deck. Each card has a purpose.

A simple way to look at it is using a hammer when you need a screw driver, or a hatchet when you need a scalpel.

If all the SF whiners were to try to form up with each other and play with their "balanced" builds instead of constantly worrying how others play the game then we wouldn't have a new Nerf SF thread pop up every other day.

You guys broke a skill that made everyone equal when you screamed for the Ursan nerf and now your crying about another skill, I don't wonder if you guys are going to get your way I just wonder what skill you'll whine about next after you do.

I hope Anet learned a lesson after listening to you about Ursan Blessing whole guilds left the game because they were sick of the constant nerfs to things that people enjoy.

I've said it over and over again the only true balance I think you guys would be happy with is every damage skill does 1 damage and every healing skill does 1 healing everything else is removed form the game; all armor, off hands, and shields are removed form the game and all weapons are replaced with pointed sticks. Now every one is equal GW is finally balance oh wait that guy over there has a shiner stick than me throw dirt now that 's better.

One thing I liked of Final Fantasy job system for Humans is the Mime.
One characters makes everything.
Become a warrior, learn everything a warrior can do, change profession.
While being of one profession, what you can equip becomes limited, and you have one unique ability.
And so on until you have learned everything.
And once you have learned everything, you can be the mime, and you unique ability becomes 'mimicry'.

The "all you can do I can do better" feel is soooo great.

I wish GW2 was like that, since you could make one character, change primary rofession, switch armor and ding, you became another profession, and a single character could make everything.
That would you would need only one character of each race to be able to try all possible combinations... provided you have enough time.

Oh, yes, there is. I go to a certain oupost, with my Elementalist that has all skills of them game, maxed titles (except the allegiance ones and Vanguard) and wait to find a team to make something there...
And wait...
And wait...
And wait...
After the nth time you get a "Make yourself an assassin if you want to join" you know that something is wrong and must be fixed.

And is also kind of annoying when you manage to join a team, and everyone dies on you.


One good way to fix Speed Clears is making their work like some challenges and missions: Scheduled.
No matter how fast you kill something, the next wave of monsters or the next area won't open until X time has past.
And there you are, no more getting to the end chest in 6 minutes.

I would actually like to reverse that (somewhat) and make the chest only spawn at 30 minutes, this would also create longer runs = less chest drops .

I don't enjoy noclipping through half-life
(that's a figure of speech btw)

If they're gonna break shadow form, I propose a change to it like:
For x seconds all hostile spells against you fail.

Increase the duration and make the upkeep possible at say 13 shadow arts or less. (with deadly paradox OR glyph of swiftness). And remove the 33% less damage.

If Anet is gonna nerf UWSC, it could have done it ages ago. If Anet wouldn't nerf it then, why nerf it now when the price everything have already been brought down?

Lol'd, you're funny.

I doubt that will change in that "certain outpost" if SF is nerfed. Outside of Z-Missions and SCs, that happens everywhere, regardless of class or whether there's a permasin farming it, because pugs are bad and people don't want to make them or join them. Nerfing SCs won't open the pugs up to random classes, it will just make there be even fewer pugs than there already are.

It's always rumored about, hasn't happened yet. all good things must come to an end, but u never know when. it's no use worrying about when it may happen, no one truly knows. just abuse it as much as u can while it is here

I'd consider PvE to be "balanced" when a team of 8, of varying professions, is the preferred method of playing, clearing and farming. With just that one sentance alone, you can be sure of the amount of work that's going to be required to get to that stage.

Honestly, like I said in the Ursan thread, we're not going to get too far with nerfing just SF. It's just one thing that's near the top of the pile of what's wrong with PvE. Sure I'd like to see it nerfed - along with a thousand of other things - but if ANet isn't going to follow through with the rest, then what's the point?

I see what you mean. We have, what, 3 explorables and a dungeon like that now (Charr Homelands)? And nothing in them worth doing.

I'm late coming to this thread, and I don't feel like reading through the whole thing, so here's my thoughts.

I don't do speed clears, simply because I don't find them fun. If other people do, so be it. I do enjoy using SF to run various of my other characters to a town or outpost when I need to. So, nerfing SF into oblivion would annoy me. I'd get over it pretty quick, same as I do with any skill change, but that's beside the point.

Anet has stated that they do not have issues at this point with the speed clears/solo farming/running, but that they were keeping an eye on them. It was in the developer updates...back in June.

"Runs, Solo Farming, and Speed Clears

Players have long asked for our viewpoint on these ways of playing through content. For the most part, we think these are acceptable ways of playing Guild Wars but may occasionally take steps to increase their difficulty or even block a particular build. For instance, when it comes to Shadow Form, there is little concern about solo farming in most places; however, the speed clears of our most difficult content have become fast enough to warrant a more watchful eye. Over the coming months we will monitor these areas and, starting with Cry of Pain, make adjustments where necessary."

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/de...l_balances.php

As such, if they decide the speed clears are becoming too fast, they will do something about it. It's their judgment call.

I don't feel destroying a skill is the best option for doing that. They could easily adjust it so that the UW chest will not spawn unless they 1)complete all the quests AND 2)kill every foe in the area. Effectively turning it into a vanquish. This would slow down the clears, yet still make the builds viable. This should make most people happy - The skill is still usable, and the clears take longer. This should also encourage the use of balanced teams again as well, since there should be less emphasis on having to be a sin at that point. If you have to kill everything anyway the time to the chest should be closer to the same.

go go go abuse it. use and abuse!

Too bad there's still 98% of the game to go that's skewed in such a fashion.

This is largely in response to the way ANet has handled beasties. While the massive buffs that monsters have received make a bit of sense given their terrible AI, this doesn't really excuse the fact that there were quite a few touch-ups they could've done to their intelligence.

If there was a bit better framework in terms of their behavior this wouldn't really be needed, and the AI is something ANet essentially neglected since the first holy trinity run.

PvE could've been about building intelligent builds against a varying assortment of balanced monster mobs with team builds that actually posed a threat. The current state of PvE is nowhere near that, with people clogging their bars with PvE skills, their stats with consets, and the monsters with high levels, retard AI, and questionable builds.

Like I said earlier: the moment I see a group of monsters ignoring people with farming build - because why would you try to attack someone using one? - then I'll know the AI has taken a much more intelligent route.

That's what I wish I had right now in Guild Wars, far more intelligent and thus more in-depth gameplay - and who wouldn't want that?

why would you blame the economy on perma sins, if anything they have made items more affordable for those who cant perma or dont want to perma. so what is the problem here?

how do they make things more affordable? simple math i have the only ecto i could sell for millions of gold, oh wait a perma sin just did a uwsc and got 3 ecto dropped to him crap my ecto lost value.....

thus, making the economy of the game better for those of us who dont have stacks of ectos.

likewise for the high end chest items, if you had the only one you could charge ungodly for a obby edge, but if permas keep farming them they will eventually become more affordable for everyone. so i say GO PERMA'S GO, DO THE GW WORLD A FAVOR AND FARM THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYTHING FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM.
drunk n angry is online now Report Post

I am not going to read this whole thread but if you ask me.I would like to see the UW go back the way it was before uwsc,sf sins and ursan and drop favour altogether it kind of old now.I would even eliminate the 1000 entry fee.

This is what I would do if I was on the GW Live team.

As long as UWSC doesnt get smurfed...

It's an interesting thing, really.

One could argue that all players deserve a chance at any item, and that SF is helping towards that. It's not like their worth anything anyways; the only "necessities" are easily attainable: max weapons, armor, runes and upgrades.

On the other hand, if their rarity and prestige is the only thing going for them, shouldn't that be maintained? Like the above just stated, there's no rush for this gear, it's not required.

Of course, it is a lot easier to do, so that at least deserves some mention.

This is what i have the problem with, I am sitting in ToA right now, and all i see is sins, monks and necros, and thats all people want. How am i supposed to even think about getting fow armor for my ranger when over half the classes in the game cant even get a pug into uw/fow

"starting trapper group for UW, invite self"

"ranger lf /RT to duo UW"

and of course

"famine ranger fow"

might be a start. if you are pugging the 'elite' areas know as uw/fow