Update - Thursday, September 17 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Yelling @ Cats

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

19 Sep 2009 at 09:04 - 321

Quote:

Originally Posted by S_Serpent

I could just go say go play paper, rock, scissors when you only have the /paper command available, but you will not understand my sarcasm here.

Sounds like you understand balance pretty well.

I underestimated you.

S_Serpent

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

When not at Aziure's Wizard Tower you can find my in Belgium

Knigths of the Keyboard Order - KkO

19 Sep 2009 at 09:35 - 322

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Sounds like you understand balance pretty well.

I underestimated you.

Yeah like some many more that keep posting on guru and affiliated fora!

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

19 Sep 2009 at 10:22 - 323

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Sorry but why did they nerf rip ench? They should have reduced the recharge for PvE and the 'buffs' for the necro skills in pve? Why would a necro be near the frontline...Sure this has the necessary nerfs but that's it really.

indeed the necro ones had me a bit confused as well, rip enchant was the only enchant remover that could keep up with how HM mobs spam things.
I understand the other nerfs I was a bit irked to see Vampiric Spirit hit, I felt it was a good addition to blood magic, a very potent self heal that worked quite well to cover a lot of the saccing incurred from running orders and similar builds,

And sorry but you can buff necro PBAoE all you want in PvE no one is gonna run into mobs to set em off.

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

19 Sep 2009 at 14:51 - 324

Quote:

The most difficult part about Shadow Form is enduring the hit when you put your face on your keyboard and proceed to roll your face on it.

LMAOROFL that was too good dude. I choked on my coke.

)

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

19 Sep 2009 at 16:12 - 325

> < just noticed rip enchantment was also nerfed for pve...

WTF

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

19 Sep 2009 at 16:19 - 326

Rip was just stupid efficient at 10s. There was no reason to split that update. That nerf was perfectly fair.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

19 Sep 2009 at 20:16 - 327

Quote:

Originally Posted by S_Serpent

The only thing getting catered for atm is that the cryers (who enjoy wrecking fun for others) get served everytime over and over again.

GG by the end of the year GW will be a ghost town sooner if you continue like that, maybe you can start crying already that you want more real people to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up in GW because they all left and there are hardly any left to enjoy your RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing up others fun playingstyles

Exactly my point as well. I am too tired of this cat and mouse game ANet wants to play... And as time passes I am less and less willing to adapt to whatever crap they throw at me with each monthly nerf they dream of. That is not fun, not in PvE - my part of the world. I've changed my main once, but *I will not do it again and I will not play a perma sin*. As much as they want me to (and obviously they want all of us to do that idiotic god mode play)... I will not do it cause I'd die of boredom.

Genuine question for ANet: Can someone in their live team please explain the benefits on PvE play of their recent nerfs? I really want to know what was the PvE problem they wanted to address, what has been improved/achievedin PvE by these nerfs and how are they going to measure that in the future.

Would appreciate an answer.

hallomik

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

The Illini Tribe

N/Mo

19 Sep 2009 at 20:39 - 328

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

Assassins have plenty uses in pve, their squishiness is irrelevant if you got a decent prot monk with you. Even without prot they have plenty skills to boost their survivability. I say this as an experienced assassin, do plenty of HM and never had SF on my skillbar (yet).

Their damage output (scythe or moebius/death blossom) is the stuff of gods, especially when combined with dwarf weapon or even better splinter weapon.

In short anybody who complains assassins don't have uses in pve when SF gets nerfed is a nubcake in my book.

I don't find the prot henches or heroes particularly reliable when playing an assassin in hard mode. My experience is that there's nearly always a little break in coverage of where the sin gets spiked down fast. If you have a human friend prot monk you consistently play with, that's a different story. That isn't realistic for most.

I've tried the moebius/death blossom build. It is better than most sin builds especially for aoe DPS, but critical defenses only goes so far in providing survivability. When I run my 10 characters through hard mode missions for zBounties, I find deaths are rare for all classes but the assassin. That is, unless I just play a staff wielding, AP caller for discord nec heroes.

I haven't tried the sin / scythe combination, and I now plan to give it a go. Looks promising. However, that suggestion kind of makes my point. Only three skills on that build are assassin, and you carry a weapon from another profession? I recognize the build is based around the sin's primary attribute for effectiveness, but you're really reaching into another professions toolbox pretty deeply to make a sin build viable for PVE.

My basic point, I think, remains unchallenged. If Anet nerfs SF, as I think they need to and will, but they do so with not even a bone tossed back at making sins more PVE-friendly, either through an alternative farming technique or skill change aimed at AOE or survivability, the nerd rage seen on these forums will be legendary.

But that's just the opinion of one nubcake.

Yelling @ Cats

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

19 Sep 2009 at 21:04 - 329

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

I don't find the prot henches or heroes particularly reliable when playing an assassin in hard mode. My experience is that there's nearly always a little break in coverage of where the sin gets spiked down fast. If you have a human friend prot monk you consistently play with, that's a different story. That isn't realistic for most.

If your assassin is getting "spiked down", faster than your 3 Savannah Heat eles, you are doing something very, very wrong.

And yes, you can go about replying to this one of two ways. You can either choose the "well assassins are melee so they will get attacked more", which is completely false since assassins have more armor, therefore will be targeted after casters.

If you want to say "well casters shouldn't be getting attacked either", that will be because you are playing horribly and having a "tank" warrior, in which case, the assassin shouldn't be getting attacked in that case either.

The assassins that get "spiked down" are the retards that run in front of everyone, and shadow step in before anyone else is even close to casting range, because they think they are Naruto or whatever else those anime fans like.

Yelling @ Cats

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

19 Sep 2009 at 21:07 - 330

Oh, and stacking more and more AoE damage on assassins is retarded.

The whole "Let's add adjacent range to make it viable!" mentality is getting old.

Effendi Westland

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Isle of the dead

[DVDF][LDS]

P/W

19 Sep 2009 at 21:11 - 331

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

I don't find the prot henches or heroes particularly reliable when playing an assassin in hard mode. My experience is that there's nearly always a little break in coverage of where the sin gets spiked down fast. If you have a human friend prot monk you consistently play with, that's a different story. That isn't realistic for most.

I've tried the moebius/death blossom build. It is better than most sin builds especially for aoe DPS, but critical defenses only goes so far in providing survivability. When I run my 10 characters through hard mode missions for zBounties, I find deaths are rare for all classes but the assassin. That is, unless I just play a staff wielding, AP caller for discord nec heroes.

I haven't tried the sin / scythe combination, and I now plan to give it a go. Looks promising. However, that suggestion kind of makes my point. Only three skills on that build are assassin, and you carry a weapon from another profession? I recognize the build is based around the sin's primary attribute for effectiveness, but you're really reaching into another professions toolbox pretty deeply to make a sin build viable for PVE.

My basic point, I think, remains unchallenged. If Anet nerfs SF, as I think they need to and will, but they do so with not even a bone tossed back at making sins more PVE-friendly, either through an alternative farming technique or skill change aimed at AOE or survivability, the nerd rage seen on these forums will be legendary.

But that's just the opinion of one nubcake.

The playstyle of an assassin is vastly different from any other class, and usually you need to pull back when you get too much aggro and/or wait for aggro to settle before charging in.

Yes, you will die more often then certain other classes when playing an assassin, but like any other physical class the class only shines when the team build allows for it. Though with heroes and henchies my experience is that I tend to die as much as any caster. In HM unless you die alot in a short time DP doesnt really matter.

That said, I tend to not even use critical defenses, I prefer dark escape and the blinding lead attack to protect me. As for the heroes/henchies, a paragon or ritualist, orders/resto or orders/SV/resto necro and MM heroes and war (who i call for to send into attack before i attack), earth ele (if not available another war or ranger), and 2 monks henchies are what I typically use when doing stuff in HM.

There are certain dungeons that pose a problem with this playstyle, but those are the dungeons that pose a problem to most builds, 97% of the game is perfectly do-able on HM with how I play my assassin. In fact my assassin is one of my favorites when I go and do the z-stuff on all my 10 chars. Together with ritualist and paragon it counts as one of the easiest chars to H/H on for me, with a pure assassin bar.

You might argue that there isnt alot an assassin can do beside moebius/DS or pretending to be a dervish, but that is at least two options. Paragons dont have alot to do except having a spear build with TNTF and save yourselves. Or the mesmer, who doesn't belong in pve at all, i.e. there is nothing a mesmer can do that another class can't do better, faster, stronger.

EDIT: also use +armor while attacking armor and minor runes only ;-)

Yelling @ Cats

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

19 Sep 2009 at 23:24 - 332

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

The playstyle of an assassin is vastly different from any other class, and usually you need to pull back when you get too much aggro and/or wait for aggro to settle before charging in.

Yes, you will die more often then certain other classes when playing an assassin, but like any other physical class the class only shines when the team build allows for it. Though with heroes and henchies my experience is that I tend to die as much as any caster. In HM unless you die alot in a short time DP doesnt really matter.

That said, I tend to not even use critical defenses, I prefer dark escape and the blinding lead attack to protect me. As for the heroes/henchies, a paragon or ritualist, orders/resto or orders/SV/resto necro and MM heroes and war (who i call for to send into attack before i attack), earth ele (if not available another war or ranger), and 2 monks henchies are what I typically use when doing stuff in HM.

There are certain dungeons that pose a problem with this playstyle, but those are the dungeons that pose a problem to most builds, 97% of the game is perfectly do-able on HM with how I play my assassin. In fact my assassin is one of my favorites when I go and do the z-stuff on all my 10 chars. Together with ritualist and paragon it counts as one of the easiest chars to H/H on for me, with a pure assassin bar.

You might argue that there isnt alot an assassin can do beside moebius/DS or pretending to be a dervish, but that is at least two options. Paragons dont have alot to do except having a spear build with TNTF and save yourselves. Or the mesmer, who doesn't belong in pve at all, i.e. there is nothing a mesmer can do that another class can't do better, faster, stronger.

EDIT: also use +armor while attacking armor and minor runes only ;-)

I also like taking the highly unpopular Beguiling Haze. Even if you are this huge damage sponge that people like to make you out to be...completely shutting down an ele or monk in HM for 12-13 seconds = win. While of course, still doing damage, and having room for self healing/defense skills and/or an escape shadow step if shit gets really deep.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

19 Sep 2009 at 23:38 - 333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

The playstyle of an assassin is vastly different from any other class, and usually you need to pull back when you get too much aggro and/or wait for aggro to settle before charging in.

Critical Agility, Critical Defenses, be more durable than Warrior.

Chocobo1

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

New Zealand

CoA

N/

19 Sep 2009 at 23:46 - 334

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Exactly my point as well. I am too tired of this cat and mouse game ANet wants to play... And as time passes I am less and less willing to adapt to whatever crap they throw at me with each monthly nerf they dream of. That is not fun, not in PvE - my part of the world. I've changed my main once, but *I will not do it again and I will not play a perma sin*. As much as they want me to (and obviously they want all of us to do that idiotic god mode play)... I will not do it cause I'd die of boredom.

Genuine question for ANet: Can someone in their live team please explain the benefits on PvE play of their recent nerfs? I really want to know what was the PvE problem they wanted to address, what has been improved/achievedin PvE by these nerfs and how are they going to measure that in the future.

Would appreciate an answer.

This entire thread is just filled with your moaning. Are you really that crippled? PvE improved because Monks can no longer tap dance on their keyboard in order to heal. A little bit of skill is now added in. Mantra, even though it is an oversight, made 600 Farming a little more difficult. This might put up prices in Dungeon Running, or stop bad players who can't adapt to any little change from even attempting 600 anymore. Paragons Finale got changed back so that they they can still woamg heal.

They really don't have to design every update around PvE, can't you just suck it up? I thought PvP moaning was bad, clearly I was wrong. This update was more focused around PvP as we were promised some PvP love. Be grateful they even decided to chuck in a few PvE updates.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

20 Sep 2009 at 08:06 - 335

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Mantra, even though it is an oversight,

Official source stating that?

Quote:

made 600 Farming a little more difficult. This might put up prices in Dungeon Running, or stop bad players who can't adapt to any little change from even attempting 600 anymore.

And the benefit or problem addressed is?

Quote:

They really don't have to design every update around PvE, can't you just suck it up? I thought PvP moaning was bad, clearly I was wrong. This update was more focused around PvP as we were promised some PvP love. Be grateful they even decided to chuck in a few PvE updates.

I wasn't talking about selfless spirit, that was recently buffed so it needed adjustments.

But they have to design any PvE skill update for PvE, of course. It does not matter if that update is caused by a PvP update, if it touches PvE it has to be designed/justified for PvE as well. Same goes for changes to PvP skills because of PvE. What I am fed up with is ruining PvE playstyles and builds for the "PvP balance", cause obviously they can throw any change in PvE since PvE doesn't really matter, does it? They probably are not even aware of wth people play in PvE nor do they care (this and previous updates seem to point to that). However if situation was reversed and they would f up a PvP skill because of a PvE update... OMG it would be the end of the world!

No, I am not grateful for their PvE update. IMO they could have not change anything in PvE and split any skills they need to balance for PvP into PvE version and PvP version. As a matter of fact they should always do so and let us be.

Darth The Xx

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Sen'jin Village

The Infamous Cake Bandits [cake]

Mo/W

20 Sep 2009 at 08:57 - 336

Sooo um the nerf to patient spirit was pretty retarded no? Didn't change anything at all, if you were spamming it on recharge you were doing something wrong to start with ....

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

20 Sep 2009 at 09:16 - 337

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

I don't find the prot henches or heroes particularly reliable when playing an assassin in hard mode. My experience is that there's nearly always a little break in coverage of where the sin gets spiked down fast. If you have a human friend prot monk you consistently play with, that's a different story. That isn't realistic for most.

just micro the prot spells in your heroes bars (prot spirit, nothing else needed for pve)

if you want to play a frontline sin in pve, you need to know how to make proper aggro, ball them, and nuke the hell out of them, otherwise, your healers may not be able to keep you alive for a very long time

that's why I play critscythe with smiter monks (and a minion bomber if there are enough bodies) : lots of prot + aoe damage

you can play discord too, but it's just boring

Mikkelet

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2008

Rt/

20 Sep 2009 at 09:17 - 338

Isn't it weird? In the interview with Izzy, he mention that monks are their primary farming class, and yet they nerf MoR...

Desert Rose

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

20 Sep 2009 at 10:58 - 339

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Official source stating that?

Dev notes implies this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikkelet

Isn't it weird? In the interview with Izzy, he mention that monks are their primary farming class, and yet they nerf MoR...

Yeah, the nerf of MoR will make the monk totally worseless as a farming tool...

Ccat

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2008

20 Sep 2009 at 11:11 - 340

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikkelet

Isn't it weird? In the interview with Izzy, he mention that monks are their primary farming class, and yet they nerf MoR...

That's not wierd at all, Guild Wars doesn't revolve around the people who make it, it revolves around customers. Every single change they do is in someway the intrests of players, though this is hard to believe from how bad they are at it. If someone were to make a game that catered only to them it would only suit a neiche audience. I believe ANet will have something similar according to balance..

Shakkara

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

W/

20 Sep 2009 at 13:41 - 341

Woot Finale of Restoration restored for PVE!

Top update!

/doesnt care about the rest.

lord of all tyria

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

20 Sep 2009 at 17:01 - 342

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier?

Yelling @ Cats

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

20 Sep 2009 at 17:21 - 343

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier for you?

Meh, I'd even disagree with this.

Like the AoE spells in blood (Unholy Feast and Signet), they were pretty bad in PvE. No melee could reasonably afford them, and they were largely useless for a necro. Blood is strong in PvP because it ignores armor and any prots. PvE, no monsters use prots, so the main boon of blood is basically useless.

Obviously, PvE could be fixed in a way so that monsters actually have decent skills bars instead of a deadly Holy Wrath/Heal Other skillbar.

BLOODGOAT

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

long a

Mo/

20 Sep 2009 at 19:51 - 344

lol Mantra

600 PROTIP:
If you're using Mantra to cast your first cycle of enchants when enemies aren't attacking you, you're bad.
If it takes you more than 2 cycles to kill a group with 1 Monk, you're bad.
(Hint: that means you only use Mantra on the 2nd cycle)
If you can't drop Essence Bond from your bar or Life Attunement from your Smiter's (or both which is even better) to accommodate alternate offensive skills for necessary groups (sup enemy healers), you're bad.

The Mantra nerf IS nonsensical, but it just means you have to be a little less lazy when you're running 600 (which is probably why you're bad in the first place).

Also, anyone who relied on Selfless Spirit as a crutch to Monking is also bad. You can still Boon Prot. You could before the Selfless Spirit Buff, and you still can after this nerf. Just stop being shitty.

I accept the rest of the updates (see: nerfs) blindly as they don't affect me in any way.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

20 Sep 2009 at 19:58 - 345

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier for you?

This. This is why PvE is broken.

The very basic, not to get into the details of the differences:

PvP = 4/8 x lvl 20 players in a team face same no of lvl 20 player

PvE = 8 lvl 20 players in a team face any number (3 to 20 to whatever) of up to lvl 40(?) AI controlled monsters with half skill recharge, insane armors, mana, health and juicy monster only skills no player could ever have.

Hmm very similar, indeed. Given the similarity it *must* be that all PvE balance should be based on PvP needs and we should give no thoughts to the PvE game play... cause it's not something that matters, is just an inferior form of PvP and it just so happens that the majority of players play PvE. Which again is another reason to only consider PvP balance when adjusting skills, cause it's the most logical thing do to. Right?

PS:
To balance PvE not a single skill would need to be nerfed. Instead PvE should be balanced by balancing the monster builds and AI. It's not the players that are the problem... it's the content (read monsters, zone maps, challenges, AI, etc) that are the issue in PvE.

How can you possibly obtain a balanced prophecies elite map when 3 more campaigns/expansions were made available to players with all their skills/mechanics but no update at all has been made to the monsters/zone in that elite area to take that into account? The choice is then obvious: instead of updating the zone they nerf to hell whatever build players come up with using skills from the other campaigns. So it's players against devs. GW is just about what build will players come up with that is efficient and how long it will take for ANet to spoil their fun and force them to find another one. And then the history repeats and then players loose interest and here we are today.

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

20 Sep 2009 at 20:42 - 346

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

This. This is why PvE is broken.

The very basic, not to get into the details of the differences:

PvP = 4/8 x lvl 20 players in a team face same no of lvl 20 player

PvE = 8 lvl 20 players in a team face any number (3 to 20 to whatever) of up to lvl 40(?) AI controlled monsters with half skill recharge, insane armors, mana, health and juicy monster only skills no player could ever have. but are not even close to what would be considered "smart" by humans

Hmm very similar, indeed. Given the similarity it *must* be that all PvE balance should be based on PvP needs and we should give no thoughts to the PvE game play... cause it's not something that matters, is just an inferior form of PvP and it just so happens that the majority of players play PvE. Which again is another reason to only consider PvP balance when adjusting skills, cause it's the most logical thing do to. Right?

PS:
To balance PvE not a single skill would need to be nerfed. Instead PvE should be balanced by balancing the monster builds and AI. It's not the players that are the problem... it's the content (read monsters, zone maps, challenges, AI, etc) that are the issue in PvE.

How can you possibly obtain a balanced prophecies elite map when 3 more campaigns/expansions were made available to players with all their skills/mechanics but no update at all has been made to the monsters/zone in that elite area to take that into account? The choice is then obvious: instead of updating the zone they nerf to hell whatever build players come up with using skills from the other campaigns. So it's players against devs. GW is just about what build will players come up with that is efficient and how long it will take for ANet to spoil their fun and force them to find another one. And then the history repeats and then players loose interest and here we are today.

There's no reason why many of these skills should remain in PvE. PvE is already incredibly easy - completing hard mode missions without a fear of death and vanquishing without any fear of dying is basically pretty boring. I won't touch on speed clears since I know that's a different problem in itself.

The point is, the argument that "hard mode monsters are 8 levels higher than you" simply doesn't work. AI is AI. It can be abused. The reason why they're higher level than you is that they aren't (supposed to be) as smart as you (if they are, it's your own problem). You actually get 8 skills, and can change your skill bar and party composition. They can't. If you've played Guild Wars for awhile now, you should realize that that is what allowed Guild Wars PvE to work in the past when you fought monsters stronger than you.

Charlotte the Harlot

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Bay Area

none

R/

20 Sep 2009 at 21:01 - 347

Solo farming should never be taken into account for a skill balance.

Chocobo1

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

New Zealand

CoA

N/

20 Sep 2009 at 22:05 - 348

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Official source stating that?

If you look at the Dev Notes, it's fairly implied that the update was for PvP and not PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

And the benefit or problem addressed is?

Benefit is Dungeon Running prices go up? This is good for anyone who isn't terrible at this game, as it is a good source of cash and doesn't require too much investment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I wasn't talking about selfless spirit, that was recently buffed so it needed adjustments.

But they have to design any PvE skill update for PvE, of course. It does not matter if that update is caused by a PvP update, if it touches PvE it has to be designed/justified for PvE as well. Same goes for changes to PvP skills because of PvE. What I am fed up with is ruining PvE playstyles and builds for the "PvP balance", cause obviously they can throw any change in PvE since PvE doesn't really matter, does it? They probably are not even aware of wth people play in PvE nor do they care (this and previous updates seem to point to that). However if situation was reversed and they would f up a PvP skill because of a PvE update... OMG it would be the end of the world!

No, I am not grateful for their PvE update. IMO they could have not change anything in PvE and split any skills they need to balance for PvP into PvE version and PvP version. As a matter of fact they should always do so and let us be.

I'm reading this and just trying to think what you relied upon so much in PvE that got ruined because of a PvP Nerf and I can't think of it. What are you specificly in tears about? Your argument would work if they changed a staple skill into dust because of PvP, but nothing of that sort has really happened here.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

20 Sep 2009 at 22:08 - 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

Solo farming should never be taken into account for a skill balance.

Protective Bond and Spirit Bond say, "o hai".

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

20 Sep 2009 at 22:24 - 350

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Protective Bond and Spirit Bond say, "o hai".

Protective Spirit is a great skill for both solo farming and team play - it's necessary in many areas of PvE for healthy team play.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

20 Sep 2009 at 23:48 - 351

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Protective Spirit is a great skill for both solo farming and team play - it's necessary in many areas of PvE for healthy team play.

Where did he mention PS? He just pointed out that PB and SB were both nerfed in PvE because of solo farming.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

21 Sep 2009 at 06:42 - 352

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Benefit is Dungeon Running prices go up? This is good for anyone who isn't terrible at this game, as it is a good source of cash and doesn't require too much investment.

You seriously think that dungeon runs are cheap and that is the issue???

How about: why the hell dungeon runs exist to begin with? Simple: PvE is sooooo broken and unbalanced that Mo and A can solo dungeons and all other classes *need* a run since they are unable to reach the same goal even in a team of 8 human players and getting 8 human players is the most luxurious you can go these days.

However I was saying something else:

Quote:

How can you possibly obtain a balanced prophecies elite map when 3 more campaigns/expansions were made available to players with all their skills/mechanics but no update at all has been made to the monsters/zone in that elite area to take that into account? The choice is then obvious: instead of updating the zone they nerf to hell whatever build players come up with using skills from the other campaigns. So it's players against devs. GW is just about what build will players come up with that is efficient and how long it will take for ANet to spoil their fun and force them to find another one. And then the history repeats and then players loose interest and here we are today.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

They've been nerfing skills in PvE for 4+ years now? If we were only to count how many times shadow form alone was nerfed in the past and you can safely call ANet PvE balance team insane.

So ANet: how many nerfs away from the holly grail of PvE balance are we? Just one more? Until the next one when we'll need one more?

I think it's safe to declare them insane. PvE will never get better with their skill nerfs, but they'll probably do that forever since that is the only thing they know.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

21 Sep 2009 at 07:18 - 353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

You seriously think that dungeon runs are cheap and that is the issue???

He has a point thou.

Runs are basically used to make up for either laziness of suckiness of runee. If costs raise, not only get 'good' runners more profits, it can also persuade some people to actually, you know, play the game.

There is little that can be done about someone getting ran thought content if he really, really wants to, but that does not mean it should be convenient and cheap to do so as well.

Shasgaliel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

[bomb]

21 Sep 2009 at 08:35 - 354

i have the impression that being forced to change build regardless why is a pain for pve people as if there is some emotional link with the skills used. On the other hand pvp people hate stagnancy and they want many different changes also for balance reasons. I do not see any way to please both of the sides without introducing further pvp/pve split....

Turbo Ginsu

I despise facebook

Join Date: Feb 2008

Australia

Meeting of the Lost Minds

Me/

21 Sep 2009 at 09:22 - 355

I agree that the MoR nerf hurt 600 monks far less than it hurt pve mesmers, and folk who used it for non-600/farming builds. I never used it on my 600 anywhere I could survive just by being a bit more precise about what I was doing. That slot is far more useful for a million other skills IMO. I've taken some of the most hilariously wrong builds ever made into the UW in a 600/Smite situation, and not one of those ever died any more from not having MoR than it did for any other reason. The one thing I noticed their dying all had in common was that they were all death-related.

It did really annoy me however, that for the character I actually do use it for, my PvE Mesmer (Yes we do exist, and most of us love it >all), the skill is worthless.

I'm very glad that I also am not the first or only person who noticed how hard aNet owned themselves making it a non-split skill change, when they went out of their way to puff up and gloat about how the enemy could "See it coming" when the PvE enemy was always only ever going to be AI that didn't really need to any more than it already does.

Classic, that needs nothing else said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

There is little that can be done about someone getting ran thought content if he really, really wants to, but that does not mean it should be convenient and cheap to do so as well.

Want to bet on that? In Neverwinter Nights it's called "Exploiting" and you get banned for it. I guess there are just differing levels of serious when people talk about "Getting serious" on something.

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

21 Sep 2009 at 12:38 - 356

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

PvE is sooooo broken and unbalanced that Mo and A can solo dungeons and all other classes *need* a run since they are unable to reach the same goal even in a team of 8 human players and getting 8 human players is the most luxurious you can go these days.

Say what? My ele has completed all those dungeons with H&H in NM and is only three dungeons away from a HM book without getting a single run. So obviously all other classes do not *need* a run to complete the goal, unless your goal is to do it in a tearing big hurry.

jray14

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

NC, USA

Ohm Mahnee Pedmay [Hoom]

21 Sep 2009 at 13:00 - 357

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

i have the impression that being forced to change build regardless why is a pain for pve people as if there is some emotional link with the skills used. On the other hand pvp people hate stagnancy and they want many different changes also for balance reasons. I do not see any way to please both of the sides without introducing further pvp/pve split....

QFT. GW totally lost all semblance of continuity between PvE and PvP with the addition of PvE-only skills (esp those from EOTN). All of my favorite PvE builds are centered around PvE-only skills, and when I go to try PvP, I find I have to start from square one setting up my skills. Not only are the PvE-only skills absent, but many of my favorite regular skills have drastically different behavior in PvP. Too confusing to keep track of... I just stick with PvE.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

21 Sep 2009 at 15:59 - 358

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

i have the impression that being forced to change build regardless why is a pain for pve people as if there is some emotional link with the skills used. On the other hand pvp people hate stagnancy and they want many different changes also for balance reasons. I do not see any way to please both of the sides without introducing further pvp/pve split....

I think the reason they get pissed when skills are nerfed for PvP's sake is because many of them don't play the areas of PvP where it's causing a problem - so ArenaNet is basically ruining a balanced skill for no reason.

I play Ritualist, for example. The countless nerfs we got due to PvP abuse were incredibly annoying and I doubt most of them will ever be reverted. Is it fair for PvP players? Yes and no. Is it fair for PvE players? Not at all.

I don't mind overpowered skills getting nerfed (looking at you, Ursan and Shadow Form) but I do mind when a balanced skill gets nerfed because the HA/GvG people were too lazy to come up with a counter and decided to whine about it instead.

Which is why I love the PvE/PvP split. I just wish more Ritualist skills + SP would get fixed now that they aren't tied to the crushed PvP profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Want to bet on that? In Neverwinter Nights it's called "Exploiting" and you get banned for it.

Only if you're playing somewhere with a butthurt host/admin who waves a No Fun sign around all the time. And only a loser would play with someone who bans for that sort of thing. It's not exploiting.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

21 Sep 2009 at 16:13 - 359

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

If its broken in pvp, its almost certainly broken in pve as well. Why does pve need to be made easier?

This is actually a very good point that I think more people should understand. If something is overpowered in PvP, it is almost certainly overpowered in PvE. The difference here is that people may not realize it is overpowered in PvE because PvE has even more overpowered options that people are abusing.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

21 Sep 2009 at 16:21 - 360

Quote:

If something is overpowered in PvP, it is almost certainly overpowered in PvE

This is what we call a non sequitur. It's a form of logical fallacy.

You must explain why something being overpowered in one game type makes it overpowered in a drastically different game type.