Henchman Skill Bar Contest Winners! - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

02 Oct 2009 at 10:18 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

- We will manually pick the winning skill bars.
- We do want robust, general purpose builds, not some niche meta builds or builds that will not be immediately made obsolete by meta shifts.
- Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked

Not to rain on the parade, but I wish the above had actually been the case.

Looking past the fact that some of the bars are simply sub-par, there are some very rookie looking mistakes. To pick one immediately obvious one: Frenzy on an AI character?

That's not quite my biggest issue with the choices, though. To illustrate, another example: The Mindblast/Distortion hench. I get that perhaps you wanted to be cute, putting a controversial and well known bar on a hench, but it's a little pointless. It's a split bar, on a character that is always going to be useless on split.

Then you have Ward vs Foes and Grasping on a hench, skills to snare runners... but it's a hench, so you next to no control over when or where they will use them.

Magebane Ranger. Ok, we are at least getting into the realm of effective here, but an AI character who's sole job is to interrupt?

I can deal with sub-par, that's fine (they only have to be so effective, and the most optimal builds are usually meta-builds), but when you are making really obviously bad choices, I think that's too much of a price to pay for being entertaining and involving people. The winners should have been very well rounded and general purpose, even if that meant sacrificing some of their impact.

The contest was a nice idea. You got a lot of entries, and a whole bunch of people felt like they were part of the development. That's great, but frankly I was hoping you had a list of solid bars already written up, and were just waiting for someone to submit something simmilar enough.

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

02 Oct 2009 at 10:33 - 122

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Not to rain on the parade, but I wish the above had actually been the case.

Looking past the fact that some of the bars are simply sub-par, there are some very rookie looking mistakes. To pick one immediately obvious one: Frenzy on an AI character?

That's not quite my biggest issue with the choices, though. To illustrate, another example: The Mindblast/Distortion hench. I get that perhaps you wanted to be cute, putting a controversial and well known bar on a hench, but it's a little pointless. It's a split bar, on a character that is always going to be useless on split.

Then you have Ward vs Foes and Grasping on a hench, skills to snare runners... but it's a hench, so you next to no control over when or where they will use them.

Magebane Ranger. Ok, we are at least getting into the realm of effective here, but an AI character who's sole job is to interrupt?

I can deal with sub-par, that's fine (they only have to be so effective, and the most optimal builds are usually meta-builds), but when you are making really obviously bad choices, I think that's too much of a price to pay for being entertaining and involving people.

The contest was a nice idea. You got a lot of entries, and a whole bunch of people felt like they were part of the development. That's great, but frankly I was hoping you had a list of solid bars already written up, and were just waiting for someone to submit something simmilar enough.

Grasping & Foes aren't too bad; they still serve a defensive purpose minimally.

The really bad ones are:

1. Frenzy
2. Infuse
3. Make Haste/Song of Concentration
4. Death's Charge on a Hammer Warrior
5. That Cripshot Bar (A big "WTF" should light up)
6. Illusion of Pain
7. A Sin Combo that requires a Knockdown
8. Mending Refrain

ArenaNet didn't clearly think through their AI, or we're in for some massive AI changes. (best infusers in the game?)

Shasgaliel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

[bomb]

02 Oct 2009 at 10:39 - 123

nooooooooo At first I was going to copy all pvx wiki but then I read the contest rules and changed my mind. The man who said that "the first thought is often the best" was a wise one. Or maybe I misread the rules and the actual contest was actually who copies the pvx first?

Big Gratz to all those who submitted their own builds and won regardless if builds are good or bad!

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 10:42 - 124

I cannot understand them.
I assumed they wanted bars that could be played well by henchmen and their limited AI.

Giving Death Pact Signet and Frenzy to henchmen?
Of course this could be topped, putting Death Pact Signet AND Frenzy on the same henchies bar. :>

Have Assassin Heroes somehow learnt to use their skills in sequence in the meantime?
Can heroes suddenly make strategic decisions when to use crucial snares?
I guess we can already predict the builds of this contest that will never be picked at all.

I hope they show some better taste when picking the names of the henchmen.

Symeon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 10:45 - 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

lol @ people who still think anet picked these bars for their effectiveness. They arent that stupid. The entire point of this move was to kill heroes - this contest is nothing but a diversion.

If this was their intention, why did they spend weeks being 'ridiculously busy' choosing from tens of thousands of entries? No, I don't believe ANet are clever enough to deliberately pick bars the AI can't run so that nobody will use them. I believe they chose them because they don't have a clue.

I can imagine the Live Team sitting around a table for hours discussing the merits of each build that would only apply if they were run by humans. They probably didn't spend a minute considering how AI would cope with them.

Oh, and most of the bars look like they were copied straight from PvXwiki; so much for the 'originality' demanded in the rules.

It all comes down to this: ANet don't play their own game.

Congrats to the winners. I'm glad I didn't bother entering this contest.

Killed u man

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

02 Oct 2009 at 11:03 - 126

THIS IS BULLSHIT.

The point of the contest was to post VIABLE builds which Heroes/Henchies could use.

EVERY warrior bar has frenzy/primal rage. Heroes do NOT use these skills proporly.

EVERY bar in the contest is currently known, or was known, as a meta bar, with 1-2 skills altered, or sometimes not even at all.

THIS IS COMPLETE AND UTTER BS AS TO WHAT THE STATED RULES WERE.

If they would have said: "Ok, simply post PvX wiki builds, and we'll select a random winner", I would have done so.

But the worst part is: THE BARS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING SUCK.

Heroes do NOT use balanced stances, nor infuse health, nor gash correctly. They don't use flesh, shock, plague touch correctly.

The hammer hero will use hammer bash before he used dev hammer.

I thought the intire point was to post a build which will pose no problem for a hero to run. They never said they were going to make an intire AI for the given skill bars.

For HA:

SOMEONE ACTUALLY UPLOADED A THUMPER BAR. Seriosuly, I have to see "my possibly winning spot" taken by a THUMPER? THIS IS NOT EVEN ALLOWED!

Rant Over:

Quote:

- We do want robust, general purpose builds, not some niche meta builds or builds that will not be immediately made obsolete by meta shifts.

Like a LC necro, or a Bsurge ele?

Quote:

Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked

Like 99% of the skill bars that won?

FROM THE OFFICIAL RULES:

Quote:

Originality:Every skill bar posted is/was a meta build, and easily to be found on PvXwiki

I just can't believe that they did this. (I REALLY wanted, and looking at the skill bars that won, DESERVED the henchman name/tonic)

Sh ele, thumpers, LC, MB, WoH Monks with infuse, etc... NOT A SINGLE, with the exception of 1, ORIGINAL BAR...

Gonzo_Neo

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

P/W

02 Oct 2009 at 11:06 - 127

I submit 3 paragons build thinking be origina and no copy PVX, but sadly PVX wins vs Players, original FTW, furthemor a lot skills cant be used for Henchies because his IA, good job.

Well 2 weeks work wasted for this and most of henchies are useless right now, after "pvp love" deleting 2 pvp modes and nothing new pve , delay skill updates, change to 2 months updates, typo in grog event and lies us, and now this, another EPIC FAIL to Live Team in less of 2 months.

Will we have new content in hallowen like new weapons skins . new minipets or new EL etc.... or at the end will we have the same old content or will be a new 2 minute mission and will be the next fail update?

Place your bets gentlemens

Emunator

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

DVDF

Mo/E

02 Oct 2009 at 11:06 - 128

About all the QQ, i thought that they said they would improve the AI of henchman so they would use the winning bars as they are supposed too.

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 11:10 - 129

heroes can't use the bars they gave them, maybe the hexers could do, but they have either poor energy management, or way too much

nobody will use them, they could just have make a random prize giveaway (when I see the bars that at least 1000 persons submitted, I guess that's already what they did)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

About all the QQ, i thought that they said they would improve the AI of henchman so they would use the winning bars as they are supposed too.

the day I see a warrior hero using frenzy (or primal rage) and bull's strike properly, I'll send a bottle of champagne to Anet's office

sure random humility signet, aura of stability, shock, death charge, death pact signet, gale... (and other key skills that the AI will NEVER have a clue how to use correctly) are fun to watch, but only in an opponent team

they shouldn't have forgotten heroes are not human players, even if the people who submitted those builds may be considered as stupid as koss with frenzy in his bar

what about bars heroes can play properly ?

smite monks, necro rits, tease mesmers, tainted flesh, hexers...

but I guess Anet wanted them useless, and it was their plan from the beginning to get rid of the AI in pvp

Elephantaliste

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

adblockplus.or

02 Oct 2009 at 11:11 - 130

you should about giving a link or a quote then.

Gz to winners.
When will winners get their prizes, and when will GvG/HA changes happen ?

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

02 Oct 2009 at 11:15 - 131

I am... almost surprised.

Seriously, too many of these are nearly straight up PvXwiki copy+paste. A lot contain skills we know the AI cannot use well or will not use at all. Some contain skills that will just hasten their death.

ANet, either admit you just don't want the AI to appear in PvP and that this entire contest was a distraction to make us believe otherwise and was a waste of resources, or fix the AI and/or the skill bars.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

02 Oct 2009 at 11:19 - 132

Man, I am glad I don't do PvP!

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

02 Oct 2009 at 11:39 - 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

Congrats to the winners. I'm glad I didn't bother entering this contest.

Indeed.

Want to know what really kills me about all this? Hold on to your hats, it's hillarious:

The updated PvE hench bars have been designed by Robert Gee, that prodigous youth on the live team, and optimized with feedback from 'top PvP players'.

I'll let that soak in for a minute, while you go over the bars that have been served up to PvP players as a result of this contest.

DoomFrost

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

E/

02 Oct 2009 at 11:48 - 134

I constructed my bar based on the fact on what skills the AI could use properly. So much for that. Congrats to all the winners though.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

02 Oct 2009 at 11:50 - 135

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The updated PvE hench bars have been designed by Robert Gee, that prodigous youth on the live team, and optimized with feedback from 'top PvP players'.

wait ... WHAT!?!?!?! Which updated PvE hench bars?

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

02 Oct 2009 at 11:57 - 136

PvX and observer mode stuff.

I thought the contest would reward uniquity and innovation instead of copy&paste, popular meta builds.

I bet multiple versions of the same winning builds were posted, so how were the final winners decided?

Emunator

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

DVDF

Mo/E

02 Oct 2009 at 11:57 - 137

Ok for the people who asked, quote is from : http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...naobra/Journal

Quote:

AI: It's possible that the Henchman AI will be updated to utitlize winning builds effectively, but it all depends on whether the design team feels this is appropriate. When submitting your bars for the contest, you shouldn't necessarily feel limited by the current AI.

So please no more QQ.

Lex

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 12:11 - 138

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

So please no more QQ.

If they update AI - ok then. But what about originality? They did want original builds. They did not want gimmicks.

From what point of view were these winning builds original???

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

02 Oct 2009 at 12:15 - 139

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

So please no more QQ.

Except I doubt they will. Even then, AI updates can and will only go so far.
Working the AI to act intelligently with skills such as Frenzy, PR, Infuse or Prots in general is quite a stretch.

It would have been much more resource efficient to only pick bars that worked well on heroes as they currently stand.
Though updating heroes to use stuff like Coward should be easy enough, especially as NPCs already use it.

And saying "Please don't submit gimmicks" and then accepting a bunny thumper is bullshit.

Symeon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 12:47 - 140

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

About all the QQ, i thought that they said they would improve the AI of henchman so they would use the winning bars as they are supposed too.

If this isn't beyond the resources of the Live Team, it would certainly take weeks more work - and for what gain? AI would be too good again and we'd be back to the original problem.

I'm not annoyed that the bars aren't AI-friendly - AI shouldn't be in PvP in the first place, except to replace disconnected players. If the bars and AI stay as is, very few of the henchmen will be used, which is a good thing.

I am annoyed about two things. Firstly, how much unnecessary effort the Live Team have put into this. If they hadn't had the contest and simply copied PvX bars, unless they included Tease/AoD mesmers or Tainted necro, I wouldn't have complained, because of the minimal effort required. But since they had a contest, sifted through thousands of bars, and ended up picking ones they could've taken skill for skill from PvX, as well as several bad ones - valuable developer time has been wasted. Secondly, the contest rules stated that builds should be original, not taken from another source. Only a handful of the winning bars comply with this. So not only was the contest not needed, but it turned out to be a complete joke.

The man-hours spent on all this could have produced a decent balance update, or even implemented Sealed Deck. I think ANet lost their sense of priority a long time ago, but it just hurts to see such an utter waste of time.

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

02 Oct 2009 at 12:47 - 141

PvX wins again.

I bet TONS of people submitted Conjure Cripslashers and MB Eles, guess who got the lucky draw...

Not happy with this.

Emunator

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

DVDF

Mo/E

02 Oct 2009 at 13:04 - 142

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

I am annoyed about two things. Firstly, how much unnecessary effort the Live Team have put into this. If they hadn't had the contest and simply copied PvX bars, unless they included Tease/AoD mesmers or Tainted necro, I wouldn't have complained, because of the minimal effort required. But since they had a contest, sifted through thousands of bars, and ended up picking ones they could've taken skill for skill from PvX, as well as several bad ones - valuable developer time has been wasted. Secondly, the contest rules stated that builds should be original, not taken from another source. Only a handful of the winning bars comply with this. So not only was the contest not needed, but it turned out to be a complete joke.

The man-hours spent on all this could have produced a decent balance update, or even implemented Sealed Deck. I think ANet lost their sense of priority a long time ago, but it just hurts to see such an utter waste of time.

Ouch you almost make me agree with this.

lustnlood

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2008

Me/

02 Oct 2009 at 13:05 - 143

wait... the thought just occured to me... i dont think these guys were the only ones who posted the copy pasted pvx skill bars... so how do you explain the fact that not all the ppl who posted pvx copied bars go chosen... was is based on skill order? would i have mattered if i put lingering curse in slot 2 not 1?

LIVE TEAM... WE NEED ACCOUNTABILITY... these actions need to be explained by you... we deserve it... we paid and you are therefore bound by law to be accountable for your actions to the community...

explain pls?

ps. this is not me provoking the live team... this simply me asking for what is rightfully mine

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

02 Oct 2009 at 13:11 - 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

LIVE TEAM... WE NEED ACCOUNTABILITY... these actions need to be explained by you... we deserve it... we paid and you are therefore bound by law to be accountable for your actions to the community...

Let's not be ridiculous, they could happily and freely shut down the servers tomorrow if they chose to.

Will Mason

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Dont Fear The Creeper [BuD]

A/

02 Oct 2009 at 13:12 - 145

My ranger HA bar won, the non-thumper one...too bad it wasn't me who won.
As for the others, copy-pasta ftl. It's really obvious that even after a delay in announcing the winners, no one spent time actually looking at the bars. I find it funny how half of them won't be used and then the other half will be be nerfed when the meta is...

lord of all tyria

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

02 Oct 2009 at 13:25 - 146

No tainter. That is all.

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 13:33 - 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Mason

My ranger HA bar won, the non-thumper one...too bad it wasn't me who won.
.

That sucks. Kinda predictable that it will be pvx builds.

dr love

...is in denial

Join Date: Sep 2006

Hyperion

starcraft 2

P/Me

02 Oct 2009 at 13:34 - 148

i have a sinking feeling they took the most popular bars, and then just did a random draw from there. so the fault may not be entirely theirs...

Auron of Neon

cool story bro

Join Date: Apr 2006

Mililani

yumy

02 Oct 2009 at 13:37 - 149

I always wanted ANet to re-introduce premades that people could load up based on the highest rated PvX builds, but I didn't want the *henchies* to use them :/

Jarus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Council of Iris

02 Oct 2009 at 13:54 - 150

I'm just glad I won, though what with all the discussion going on in here, I do have to wonder...

Have a look at Cassie Santiago's bar. Is that in meta? I have no idea what actually is in meta at the moment. The only pvp meta I would know of is the botfests that are JQ and FA. So if that bar is a meta bar, or on PvX, then it's purely coincidental, and I have to wonder if a lot of the meta-looking bars that won are also coincidental.

Bar is:
* Resurrection Signet
* Phantom Pain
* Lyssa's Aura
* Conjure Nightmare
* Illusion of Pain
* Hex Eater Signet
* Ether Phantom
* Discharge Enchantment

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

02 Oct 2009 at 14:03 - 151

It's just even more insulting that several of the winners posting here indicated they either don't have a clue about gvg and/or AI, or didn't care to put much thought into this. Well no I do appreciate your honesty, but it's infuriating that Anet is rewarding this and saddling us with garbage bars that perform worse than the zaishen henchies.

And yeah JR's comment on the resources they are allocating to the PvE henches... that's just really low.

Will Mason

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Dont Fear The Creeper [BuD]

A/

02 Oct 2009 at 14:15 - 152

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

That sucks. Kinda predictable that it will be pvx builds.

I didn't look at PvX when I made it and I just checked, it's a slight variation of 3 skills, not the same. There's not much you can do with ranger bars, but you get my point.

Scythe O F Glory

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2008

New Jersey

League of Elite [LoE]

D/

02 Oct 2009 at 14:24 - 153

Nonono....a henchman with Prage....

Lex

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 14:24 - 154

I quoted this post of Martin Kerstein already in this topic but now I noticed something new:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

The point of this contest is (...) to offer henchmen with useful skillbars (...) for players, who want to compete but are not able to field 8 human players.

GL with competing... lol & rotfl

And the most important thing to me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

They are not meant to replace human players.

Then why are you giving human skillbars to henchman???

It useless.

I vote for: let the winners keep their prizes - I dont care/mind, but ANet plz think over again, take your time how long you will need, and this next time give PvP community proper builds to compete

This topic is just pure confirmation that builds you did choose are bad and you need more time to get proper ones.

Puebert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mo/

02 Oct 2009 at 14:54 - 155

The mind blast build cracks me up.

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

02 Oct 2009 at 15:00 - 156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

About all the QQ, i thought that they said they would improve the AI of henchman so they would use the winning bars as they are supposed too.

Makes no sense. They never said they will upgrade the AI. You *thought* does not cut the mustard.

There is also no point in making builds *for* the AI if they plan to change the AI later. Which was actually the idea, to have some viable henchmen bars that work well.

Now we have henchmen with builds that cannot be properly used by heroes, that would require micro management and manually activating some skills.

Nihal

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2009

aLL

W/

02 Oct 2009 at 15:07 - 157

really i can't think that an henc can use frenzy,infuse,snare,make haste so really i think those winner build are too intelligent for a bot so i cannot see how arenanet could make win those build.. BAH

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

02 Oct 2009 at 15:08 - 158

Good thing I tried to obey the contest rules and not copy from PvX or use one of the builds from my "Hero Meta" folder in-game. Because, you know, then I might have actually won the contest.

Btw, fck this.

Auron of Neon

cool story bro

Join Date: Apr 2006

Mililani

yumy

02 Oct 2009 at 15:09 - 159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Good thing I tried to obey the contest rules and not copy from PvX or use one of the builds from my "Hero Meta" folder in-game. Because, you know, then I might have actually won the contest.

You still wouldn't have won. The Man is keeping you down, remember?

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

02 Oct 2009 at 15:12 - 160

I sent in an excellent blind bot spammer and it didn't get picked.

I had glyph of immolation also on the bar for not only blinding with steam, but, causing burning for 3 seconds as well. The ai uses this build quite effectively at least in PVE so I don't understand why a blind bot isn't one of the henchies? It's a build I like to use myself when playing PVP. Makes melees and rangers scream foul foul foul all the time.

)