Will nerfing SF really help anything to do with the game? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

CagedinSanity

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Away from you.

W/

24 Oct 2009 at 22:48 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

I never had a problem with Shadow Form allowing easy farming, even though I don't farm myself, I have no issues with people being able to do it - it actually benefits me in that most stuff becomes cheaper and more attainable, I think...

This.
I used to farm before I changed computers and discovered my graphics card hated Rata Sum.

But since It's difficult for me to make any money outside of Zaishen Key farming, I like the lower prices.

Hyper Cutter

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Knights of the White Eye [HINA]

24 Oct 2009 at 23:26 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by killerbot3009

I belive that by nerfing SF, there will simply be a stupid inflation in Ectos/Shards prices.

This is what the whiners want, actually. A sort of "Now that I've exploited X to the fullest, nerf it so no one else can get what I got".

Pretty much the story of everything people push to be nerfed, really.

Squalus the Ipno

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Italy

Italian Dreams

Me/Mo

25 Oct 2009 at 00:18 - 83

nerf sf.......one elite less. If anet want to nerf it just put sf as normal skil and no elite. Too many elite skill that really are not.

jeison

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2008

E/Me

25 Oct 2009 at 00:29 - 84

when is SF becoming nuked?
I don't use it and I don't see the issue with it, but maybe thats because I don't use it

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

25 Oct 2009 at 00:44 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

This is what the whiners want, actually. A sort of "Now that I've exploited X to the fullest, nerf it so no one else can get what I got".

Pretty much the story of everything people push to be nerfed, really.

Perhaps you should try actually reading what other people write and evaluating the propositions? There's a laundry list of reasons to nerf SF that have nothing to do with greed and everything to do with proper game design and the long-term health of the game.

I'll concede that there are plenty of self-interested anti-SF posts on this board. But it looks as though you haven't noticed that there are two levels of discussion going on around you. One of those tiers is the mindless self-interested drivel operating at about the level of a television news program. The other tier is the discussion that actually makes propositions and defends them.

The good posts get lost in the noise if you're not looking for them, but they're out there.

Copenhagen Master

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

El Centro CA

Lazy Imperius Legionis (LaZy)

W/P

25 Oct 2009 at 01:11 - 86

This game was good before SF and the prices of things were way higher also. I see two points to the SF issue. One it is great and speedy for areas if you just want that elite item etc. etc. The other side of it though it has destroyed values of certain items or brought them way down in value IMO. It also make it harder for the (regular) players to get a good balance group to do these certain areas, when all the SF are farming the areas. Either way GW will survive with or without SF, granted alot of people gonna get ticked off for the SF nerf , but they will get over it

Dusk_

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

25 Oct 2009 at 06:38 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copenhagen Master

This game was good before SF and the prices of things were way higher also. I see two points to the SF issue. One it is great and speedy for areas if you just want that elite item etc. etc. The other side of it though it has destroyed values of certain items or brought them way down in value IMO. It also make it harder for the (regular) players to get a good balance group to do these certain areas, when all the SF are farming the areas. Either way GW will survive with or without SF, granted alot of people gonna get ticked off for the SF nerf , but they will get over it

Lower prices for elite items is good, not bad, unless you're an elitist jerk. Wanting prices to be higher because of some trivial reasons like "prestige" is never a good reason.

Balanced groups will never be popular. Ever. Players naturally want to optimize, and the optimal build will never be PuGway. Nerfing SF will just lead to a slightly slower farming build that still excludes people, and nothing more.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

25 Oct 2009 at 08:58 - 88

Making areas inaccessible is also elitist. Not saying builds should be necessarily random, but sound like you only want a select part of the player base to do SoO, UW, FoW, etc.

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

25 Oct 2009 at 10:56 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

long-term health of the game

gw high end pve has no repeatability, farming (cash or titles, or both) is all you've got left to do in pve

nerf sf and farmers will either move to another build or just leave the game, how can that be good for the "long term health of the game" ?

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

25 Oct 2009 at 15:40 - 90

If the next farming build involves more than a party of sins, more people will at least get the opportunity to try it.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

25 Oct 2009 at 16:01 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

nerf sf and farmers will either move to another build or just leave the game, how can that be good for the "long term health of the game" ?

Others may come back to the game, new players may be inspired to do more, and normal players will be able to do "elite" areas. How's that a bad thing?

Alias_X

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2005

25 Oct 2009 at 16:16 - 92

The thing about UWSC is that while it made pugs hard, it made it super easy for perma-sins to find groups. And who really likes pugs anyway? Without superior team builds, everyone always complains about how much pugs suck anyway.

Now the rich are going to be super rich, and the economy may very well get screwed.

Hell, I didn't even have a permasin.

Is Anet going to eliminate Frenchway for Kurzick faction farm? Why not? Was it ever intended that alliances would have 130mil faction and be completing runs for faction in 5 minutes? That has screwed the prices of Amber, but does anyone care?

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

25 Oct 2009 at 16:45 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

nerf sf and farmers will either move to another build or just leave the game, how can that be good for the "long term health of the game" ?

1) It combats boredom and functionally increases the amount of content. People get tired of doing the same old thing over and over. The farming optima need to move around, so that people see new areas and have to solve new problems.

People would generally prefer that this be done by making farming stronger rather than weaker, but that leads to the next problem...

2) ...if you permit hyper-efficient farms that are more efficient than previously existing farms, all time previously invested in farming gets devalued. People that have already worked hard don't like that.

There's also a problem of game design:

3) It shouldn't be possible to stay alive without serious risk of death. God modes are bad. God mode is fine if it takes a great deal of skill to pull off and isn't 100% reliable. But being able to pass content over and over again with more or less 100% accuracy given sufficient skill is bad. That undesirably turns the game into Grind Wars, rewarding he who grinds the content the most times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Once SF is nerfed and the time to clear goes up Ecto prices will go sky high and many of us will be richer than we are now.

) Poor people will remain poor and have to work even harder to get anything valueable in the game from that point on.

So there's good and bad here. You fail at understanding how the trader distorts rare item markets. Once there are enough ectos in the system, it takes an extremely large amount of pressure on the system to push through the trader's resistance. With as many ectos as exist, you won't see a boom. Enough people will sell ectos when the price at the trader rises 500-1k to contain the boom.

That said, poor people and new players will be in extremely sorry shape. There are two arguments for not dumping tons of ectos into the system - it distorts the very high end markets in undesirable ways and new players will have it extremely rough when you turn the spigot off. The latter argument, however, is not sufficient excuse to leave SF as it stands. Man up, admit the mistake, fix SF, and find ways to help noobs such as increasing the rewards for the one-shot quests noobs do.

Dusk_

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

25 Oct 2009 at 20:24 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Others may come back to the game, new players may be inspired to do more, and normal players will be able to do "elite" areas. How's that a bad thing?

How will "normal players" be able to do elite areas when nerfing SF just makes farming runs take longer?

Honestly people, use your brains for a second. There are dozens of elite area farming builds, and the only reason why SF is used is because it's the best. That's it. SF is not some magic switch that turns speed farming on and off.

Nerfing SF does not make your Balancedway builds better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

If the next farming build involves more than a party of sins, more people will at least get the opportunity to try it.

No, it'll probably be a party of monks.

own age myname

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Minnesota

[TAS]

R/

25 Oct 2009 at 20:29 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

No, it'll probably be a party of monks.

Or obby tank eles.

There are gimmicks after gimmicks behind SF. I'm pretty sure there is a Rit UWSC too.

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

25 Oct 2009 at 22:49 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Others may come back to the game, new players may be inspired to do more, and normal players will be able to do "elite" areas. How's that a bad thing?

a few people might come back, but lots may leave, this is bad for in game demographics...

by the way, if there really are people waiting for a sf nerf to come back to the game, I suggest they contact a psychiatrist immediately, they do have a serious problem

normal people won't be affected by this nerf at all, there will be new speed clear builds, or there will be nothing at all... just look at doa, can normal people complete it now that ursan got nerfed, or is it a dead outpost ?

I'm getting sick of seeing people using the same arguments again and again although 5 years of GW proved them wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

1) It combats boredom and functionally increases the amount of content. People get tired of doing the same old thing over and over. The farming optima need to move around, so that people see new areas and have to solve new problems.

People would generally prefer that this be done by making farming stronger rather than weaker, but that leads to the next problem...

2) ...if you permit hyper-efficient farms that are more efficient than previously existing farms, all time previously invested in farming gets devalued. People that have already worked hard don't like that.

There's also a problem of game design:

3) It shouldn't be possible to stay alive without serious risk of death. God modes are bad. God mode is fine if it takes a great deal of skill to pull off and isn't 100% reliable. But being able to pass content over and over again with more or less 100% accuracy given sufficient skill is bad. That undesirably turns the game into Grind Wars, rewarding he who grinds the content the most times.

boredom is natural in GW, once you've completed an elite area, opened the chest to get a q13 uninscribable water wand of deathbane and a diamond, you won't go there again

all you've got left to do is grinding money or titles, which is what sf was made for, this skill totally fits what GW has turned into

if you don't deeply rework the game design, nerfing sf is pointless

To Chicken To Die

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Mo/

26 Oct 2009 at 05:11 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by gw_poster

hmm, high ecto and shard prices - as well as actually having to TRY at obtaining 'elite' trophies for HoM?!

I believe that was the original intent of such sought-after collectible materials and a full HoM...and I also believe that's exactly why SF should be nerfed

I agree about that but 1 thing. SF shouldn't even have had the issue to be nerfed. It shouldn't be buffed in the first place. Buffing the thing making SF perma was a dumb thing of Anet and ruined the hard and hard work of making elite dungeon Elite. I am no rocket scientist but wth is Anet thinking making such flaws

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

26 Oct 2009 at 06:38 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

boredom is natural in GW, once you've completed an elite area, opened the chest to get a q13 uninscribable water wand of deathbane and a diamond, you won't go there again

all you've got left to do is grinding money or titles, which is what sf was made for, this skill totally fits what GW has turned into

if you don't deeply rework the game design, nerfing sf is pointless

Dunno if I agree with your intentions, but I agree with the overall message. This is largely based on how static the PvE has remained. Monster mobs are often one-sided, have poor builds, and require little in the ways of tactics. ANet admits this with over-buffing the AI to absurd levels, and while I may be a bit sympathetic with such a move it's overall ineffective at increasing the difficulty and skill of players. Couple that with the PvE skills and other major buffs the PvE side has received and you're stuck with an incredibly shallow and ultimately unfullfilling experience.

There was massive potential for GW's PvE, but ANet dropped the ball and forgot it ever existed in the first place.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

26 Oct 2009 at 06:54 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

How will "normal players" be able to do elite areas when nerfing SF just makes farming runs take longer?

...because they would be able to do it and enjoy it at the same time.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

26 Oct 2009 at 07:06 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

if you don't deeply rework the game design, nerfing sf is pointless

Depends on where we're talking about. UWSC has quality substitutes (Obs Flesh and consumables). That isn't going to work so well for most EotN dungeon runs, where people use SF to run past most fights. Players will either get killed, have to spend a lot of time healing up in the rare safe spot, or have to carry too many survival skills to have room left on the bar to kill anything.

The stronger argument for your side is that nerfing SF is locking the barn door after the horse is gone. But the obvious counter to that is that the abuse never should have been permitted in the first place, and nothing is gained by permitting it to continue.

Ferminator

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2009

D/

26 Oct 2009 at 07:38 - 101

Anet needs to give us more bang for our buck. It sucks when you finally finish shards of orr in hm h/h and you get a daimond. But with sc (perma or 600) you can do it quickly and easily until you get the drop you want. Choose wisely, the path to take

Edit: Why would you even bother bringing lod when you get 100g from the chest and waste a skill slot? (it isnt even included in sc's)

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

26 Oct 2009 at 09:39 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

...because they would be able to do it and enjoy it at the same time.

No, they won't. Even if you remove every single gimmick build from the game, Balanceway will never, ever, EVER not suck for elite areas.

DoA already tells us what happens when they do things your way.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

26 Oct 2009 at 10:36 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There's also a problem of game design:

3) It shouldn't be possible to stay alive without serious risk of death. God modes are bad. God mode is fine if it takes a great deal of skill to pull off and isn't 100% reliable. But being able to pass content over and over again with more or less 100% accuracy given sufficient skill is bad. That undesirably turns the game into Grind Wars, rewarding he who grinds the content the most times.

The issue is that Grind Wars didn't happen because of God mode.
God mode was a RESPONSE to the decision to turn GuildW into GrindW. So even if you remove God mode, you will STILL be left with Grind Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That said, poor people and new players will be in extremely sorry shape. There are two arguments for not dumping tons of ectos into the system - it distorts the very high end markets in undesirable ways and new players will have it extremely rough when you turn the spigot off. The latter argument, however, is not sufficient excuse to leave SF as it stands. Man up, admit the mistake, fix SF, and find ways to help noobs such as increasing the rewards for the one-shot quests noobs do.

Bolded the important part. What happens if the bolded part is not done?
And considering the massive negative impact if this does not happen, shouldn't we demand this change BEFORE trashing SF?

The problem with your suggestion is that IF additional tasks (on top of trashing SF!) are executed the game WILL become better for everyone. On the other hand, if additional tasks are NOT executed the game WILL be worse for a bigger number of players that are currently plagued by the game.
And it's exactly this reason why we should demand these additional tasks to be performed BEFORE the SF nerf - because if they do not happen, leaving SF IS the lesser evil.
SF does less damage to the game in it's current state than not having SF would do.

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

26 Oct 2009 at 13:41 - 104

Totally disagree SF needs to go and noobs need to learn to earn their stuff just like the rest of of did. I'm tired of all these QQ threads about noobs needing to be hand fed and diapers changed for the betterment of the game. Buncha bs I worked hard for my stuff and everybody behind me should do so as well. Even harder would be fine by me.

)

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

26 Oct 2009 at 14:12 - 105

I don't care about farming, or about speed clears. What I mean is, I don't care if it stays, and I wouldn't mind if it goes.

I do care about running things. It should be made impossible, and SF is just a small part of that, but at least it's a start.

I also care about how the game is played. Tanking is ridiculous but should still demand some skill. With SF you need almost no skill to tank, yet you are completely invulnerable.

Oh and, if they nerf SF, they need to really crush it. Not just make things take longer, but actually make it a worse choice. Otherwise nothing will change, things will be played the same way just slower and more boring.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

26 Oct 2009 at 14:27 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Yes it will change a lott, to start people looking for "normal" teams will be able to get a group again.

Secondly it will make people go back to actually playing the game,SF is invinsible plain and simple and takes no skill,no matter what the people that want to defend SF say about it reguiring skill and how you can stil die and junk like that.

Isn't it funny that the exact same was said about Ursan and DoA? And what happened to DoA? Oh right, no one knows what DoA is anymore...

[sarcasm]Of course all things will turn back to being the nice idyllic "normal" pug-way we all loved in the beginning of GW. Of course. If only they would nerf SF. If only! *sigh*[/sarcasm]

Lord Hares

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

Lord Hares

26 Oct 2009 at 14:47 - 107

Nerf SF
ex pro farmer will be happy cause they have stacks of ectos and price will go up
casual farmer will cry and prolly rage cause they can't do shXXt anymore
thoose who don't farm don't care

Anyway, as usual, ANET is just 1-2 year late

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

26 Oct 2009 at 14:53 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I don't care about farming, or about speed clears. What I mean is, I don't care if it stays, and I wouldn't mind if it goes.

I do care about running things. It should be made impossible, and SF is just a small part of that, but at least it's a start.

I also care about how the game is played. Tanking is ridiculous but should still demand some skill. With SF you need almost no skill to tank, yet you are completely invulnerable.

Oh and, if they nerf SF, they need to really crush it. Not just make things take longer, but actually make it a worse choice. Otherwise nothing will change, things will be played the same way just slower and more boring.

Agree with the nerfing it to smithereens and nerf all those others that they brag about as another method of speed clearing. Just make the elite areas take at least 30 minutes solo or group I don't care but make it last a long time. Nerf them to hell and back. You can't do this crap in other games so it shouldn't be done in this one. No wonder so many like this game it's for lazy players who don't want to work or earn anything just a silver platter type game.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

26 Oct 2009 at 15:14 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The issue is that Grind Wars didn't happen because of God mode.
God mode was a RESPONSE to the decision to turn GuildW into GrindW. So even if you remove God mode, you will STILL be left with Grind Wars.

Look, nobody gets hurt by the existence of grind titles except the completionists. If ANet wants to market their game to the MMO crowd with a bunch of crummy grind titles I can't be bothered to complete, how does this harm me? But when ANet puts in a god mode, it does affect me directly. It's boring, and it devalues time spent playing the game to the point where the only sensible thing to do is stick your assets in rare minis and wait it out. The whole thing has made me a ton of in-game cash, but it isn't fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Bolded the important part. What happens if the bolded part is not done?
And considering the massive negative impact if this does not happen, shouldn't we demand this change BEFORE trashing SF?

Well, to be blunt about it, I don't care whether or not they do it. It's the obvious solution to the problem. But if you're posting on this board, what I'm suggesting won't affect you anyway. If you were going to do these quests, you already did them.

As for QueenofDeath's point, if these quests remain time inefficient, such that players could be farming other things more efficiently, there's little economic impact. You just want to make them more competitive with alternative uses of player time. That increases the level of available content that it's rational to play (there's a tradeoff between boredom and efficiency, so we don't have to bring these all the way up to the efficiency of farming).

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And it's exactly this reason why we should demand these additional tasks to be performed BEFORE the SF nerf - because if they do not happen, leaving SF IS the lesser evil.

You're missing the point. Nerfing SF only helps the competent players at the end of the day. It enables good players to separate, because god mode just makes bad players more able to compete via grind. Your pure noob is shafted whether we nerf SF or not, and nerfing it directly helps them. All you're doing by buffing quests is trying to make up somewhat for a year of sticking it to them. If everyone's in UW, the stuff they want (runes, mats, common weapons) gets comparatively expensive because they don't get farmed and the stuff they don't want (ectos) gets cheap.

HuntMaster Avatar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

Around

Pillar's of Earth [ROCK]

W/

26 Oct 2009 at 15:15 - 110

Nerfing SF won't change a thing. It will result in one less farm build and nothing else. Enough high end loot has been saved to be sold in the future that you are only helping the SF sin's make more money. Plus, item prices won't change for a very long time since so many people have stockpiled high end loot.

Besides, it doesn't really matter. By the time high end prices go back up, gw2 will be out and selling that junk off won't be as easy as it is now. Its the same with "fixing" the game (even though thats impossible), by the time the game is "fixed" in ways people want, gw2 will be out and only a small portion will remain on gw1.

Then the people who just bought the game recently or those who just enjoy the game will have a harder time finding groups and almost no one will be able to do the high end areas, so anet will have to once again "fix" the game so those areas are possible to complete.

As I said many times, nerfing SF and/or other easymode builds won't change a thing, as we will discover when they nerf SF.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

26 Oct 2009 at 16:58 - 111

If the godmode build is nerfed fast enough, doing this prevents undesirable changes from occurring. You are correct to assert that by the time anything was done to Ursan or would be done to SF, it was too late to broadly affect item prices. The trader makes it extremely difficult to move the prices of items like ectos once you get enough of them floating around, and we passed that threshold years ago.

High end areas won't be impossible to do. It'll take longer.

The "Don't nerf SF" arguments that claim that places like UW will be ghost towns always boil down to, "Please don't take my revenue stream away". If you really liked playing the content, you'd still play it if the returns on time investment decreased. So if you tell me that "no one will play it", that reveals that your preferences are such that you will stop playing the content. People will still do it, and the volume of people that do it will depend upon the harshness of the nerf, the availability of good substitutes, and the difficulty level.

Don't bother pointing out that DoA is a ghost town post-Ursan. It proves nothing. If money-motivated players sucked less, they'd be there, because it's more efficient given good play. It's not that people won't take on the challenge. It's that they don't have to right now. The rewards of UW are high enough that people can justify laziness to themselves.

You got 18 months out of your broken build. That's at least seventeen months too long, in my book. It's poor game design, and we shouldn't stand for it.

T1Cybernetic

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Wakefield, West Yorkshire, Uk, Nr Earth

Alternate Evil Gamers [aeg]

N/

26 Oct 2009 at 17:48 - 112

In a word, NO!

It won't make a dam bit of difference because like already stated before people will just go to the other farming builds of old times and old e/w & w/e tanking builds etc!

People will moan and cry a lot but in the end it will make (0) difference...

noneedforclevernames

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

Jay To Much [SrE]

Me/N

26 Oct 2009 at 18:40 - 113

It should be nerfed in dungeon running, but all the farmers with SF amuse me, since farming with SF is one of the worst ways to make income possible.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

26 Oct 2009 at 21:11 - 114

Nerfing SF will mean that there will actually be a purpose to running builds and professions besides SF. So, yes, I'd say that nerfing it will help the game. Because frankly, just about everything else might as well be a mending wammo. You might be able to get by with it, but that doesn't make it worth playing.

lilDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Treehouse #1

W/

26 Oct 2009 at 21:36 - 115

Economy will adjust if SF gets nerfed, and so will the builds.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

26 Oct 2009 at 22:44 - 116

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Then the people who [...] just enjoy the game will have a harder time finding groups and almost no one will be able to do the high end areas

Really? How?

Dusk_

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

27 Oct 2009 at 03:14 - 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

...because they would be able to do it and enjoy it at the same time.

SF is nerfed, here comes speed clear build #387, except it takes 10 minutes longer and is slightly harder to do properly.

End result:

1) 'Normal' players still don't get to play.
2) Speed clears take longer.

And in the worst case scenario:

3) New speed clear needs a lot more skill, so newbies get excluded for not knowing how to do it properly.

So, remind me again how nerfing SF is supposed to help normal players?

There is only two ways that your precious Balancedway will ever see use in Elite Areas: you join a casual Guild, or Elite areas get nerfed so hard that PuGways are actually viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Nerfing SF will mean that there will actually be a purpose to running builds and professions besides SF. So, yes, I'd say that nerfing it will help the game. Because frankly, just about everything else might as well be a mending wammo. You might be able to get by with it, but that doesn't make it worth playing.

Wow, I didn't realize that Guild Wars was actually just called The Underworld. I mean, who would've known that Shadow Formers see absolutely no use outside of speed clears and dungeon running?

I said it before and I'll say it again: As long as the profitable areas are farmable/runnable, your Balancedway builds will be laughed at. Always. As long as there is a reason for people to farm those areas repeatedly and quickly, your random builds will always be excluded.

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

27 Oct 2009 at 12:12 - 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

And in the worst case scenario:

3) New speed clear needs a lot more skill, so newbies get excluded for not knowing how to do it properly.

this would be imo real good opinion tbh. so newbies would make some build on their own. which they can run. might take longer. but still will be able do it. also some other ppl then newbies probably would run it.

it would stable economy imo a little bit as it was harder do it. but still doable.

S_Serpent

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

When not at Aziure's Wizard Tower you can find my in Belgium

Knigths of the Keyboard Order - KkO

27 Oct 2009 at 13:37 - 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If the godmode build is nerfed fast enough, doing this prevents undesirable changes from occurring. You are correct to assert that by the time anything was done to Ursan or would be done to SF, it was too late to broadly affect item prices. The trader makes it extremely difficult to move the prices of items like ectos once you get enough of them floating around, and we passed that threshold years ago.

High end areas won't be impossible to do. It'll take longer.

The "Don't nerf SF" arguments that claim that places like UW will be ghost towns always boil down to, "Please don't take my revenue stream away". If you really liked playing the content, you'd still play it if the returns on time investment decreased. So if you tell me that "no one will play it", that reveals that your preferences are such that you will stop playing the content. People will still do it, and the volume of people that do it will depend upon the harshness of the nerf, the availability of good substitutes, and the difficulty level.

Don't bother pointing out that DoA is a ghost town post-Ursan. It proves nothing. If money-motivated players sucked less, they'd be there, because it's more efficient given good play. It's not that people won't take on the challenge. It's that they don't have to right now. The rewards of UW are high enough that people can justify laziness to themselves.

You got 18 months out of your broken build. That's at least seventeen months too long, in my book. It's poor game design, and we shouldn't stand for it.

This makes me laugh, if doa didn't proof anything then why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO has it turned into a ghosttown! The rewards are way to low already so why the hell do you all want an economy where everything will be even more out of the question to attain! Grind Wars is bad as it is already, I don't want a GRIND Grind Wars!

And in the near future I see the whiners still whine because there is nobody left to even have a chance at playing the elite area's or dungeons.

"pllzzz a.net get more people to make babies so that we can play pugwise again a ten years or so, so my uw clearances doesn't take 3 months to complete"

a.net wants to keep as much playstyles happy! So stop whining and life with the fact that your just 0.00001% of the playerbase

toocooltang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

USA

ToA

W/

27 Oct 2009 at 14:27 - 120

If you really thing DOA is impossible without SF or ursan, you clearly need to go read wiki. While you are on wiki there are several builds that will tell you how to complete DOA without either of the previously stated skills. DOA is dead for pugs, if you want to do DOA there are many guilds that specialize in DOA(meaning they know the area, not that they read the wiki build and just roll there faces on the keybaord). These guilds currenly use SF because it is the best option for speed and easy of use, but they will quickly adapt once the nerf happens.

If you think you can't do dungeons without SF, wow. You just proved the reason SF needs to be nerfed is because it has made this entire segment of the community that has no idea what fainthartness does or why soothing images is bad on a warrior. There isnt a single dungeon out there that can be 2man/6hero'd easily with if the players plan ahead and know what they are doing. Most dungeons take less than an hour to complete with out SF.

I know the counter arguement is well I don't have time to play the game so SF allows me to run past all the mobs and blah blah blah. Really? Ever tried pugging and UWSC, well its not a SC when you have to use a BU 70% of the time(that means it takes over 30mins, and not that much faster than non SF UW). Also all the 1337 pwnage SC builds out there are heavily dependant on PVE skills. That means it mike take you 15 minutes to clear SoO but you still have to spend about 50 hours grinding out EOTN HM hero handbooks to max all those PVE skills. Of course if you don't think you need max titles to play your bar to its best capablities then you are bad. Like I have also said, SF makes bad players good, poor players richer. It also makes good players into amazing players and rich players even richer.