Will nerfing SF really help anything to do with the game?

This. There isn't going to be a MASSIVE ECTO PRICE RISE ZOMG THEY COST 450K EACH. They'll go up, to what they were before as will shards and the rest, people will just use a different build and it'll all stabilise again. GW WON'T DIE.

Second this...I do casual DoA with 1-2 guildies from time to time and, brace yourself, we don't use SF at all! The rewards down there are crap when I can just powertrade for braces so believe it or not we just do it to screw around when we are bored. SF is so much more limited in it's scope than Ursan ever was it's not even fair to compare the two. There is also no denying that the Ursan nerf devastated that elite mission.

I think the rest of your post is right on track too.

Instead of killing SF...why not look at another way of dealing with SC....
Take out or change the way consets work. That must be easier than changing the way the skill works.
Just a thought...flame away.

Really? You mean near-invulnerability isn't useful outside of SCs? How strange. Especially since even Anet admits that it's now being (ab)used outside of those things.

Actually it really isn't useful outside of SCs/farming. Who really H/H's with SF? Farming is such a minority of the game, but it's where people seem to freak out on. Amazing.

wrong wrong and more wrong.

SF is used in the luxon faction farming

SF is also used to run players to different outposts in the game. This was done before SF but was much harder to do and more expensive.

SF is also used to solo missions (gate of madness anyone?)

The fact that DOA, the pinnacle of elite areas in Guildwars can be completed on a lunchbreak from school is extremely disappointing. Farming has and always will be a part of guilds but never have I seen a single skill come to dominate the whole game like shadowform. Sure back in the proph only days you could 55 alot of stuff, but the truely good farms were quickly nerfed. Really there has never been any single build like a SF that has been so versitle you can tank the hardest elite area, you can deal massive ammounts of damage vs many times of foes, run to any outpost in the game, farm any boss you want, and complete all the dungeons in the game solo.

The closest thing is 600 smite but even that is pretty limited and can require a team of 2 or 3 to do that and the bars aren't all very generic either. The reason why 600ing isnt a problem is a good balanced well organized team can easily beat out a 600 smite combo.

As far as nerfing cons would go, this would hurt everyone equally. If you decreased the IMS from cons to 15% everyone would run 5% slower. You could almost say that all clears, speed clears or balanced ways would take 5% longer if you really wanted to simplify it.

If you want to fix speed clears without nerfing SF, make sliver trigger 1 time per second, decrease the armor bonus for earth magic armor enchantments. Also decreasing the number of PVE skills allowed in bars from 3 to 2 would help alot. In my opinion PVE skills and cons were designed to enhanced builds and make act as buffs to players builds which would still be based on ingame skills. I don't think they were designed to dominate builds as almost the sole source of damage.

1. Lol, that's funny. I've done MQSC runner, as a warrior, NO SF. *Gasp* Amazing eh?

2. Ok, running. True. It's more efficient then other builds, but it's not that much faster.

3. Almost the same concept of a SC, get things done faster then a normal group. It can also be done with various hero setups for fast times

DoA doesn't rely on SF. It could easily be run as a Obby Tank. It's really not that much different.

Might as well nerf SF then. Like you said with your con arguement, nerfing PvE skills hurts everyone. Cons, imo, are worse then PvE skills. At least for PvE skills you have to get a high rank.

Hold on there buddy, hyperbole doesn't help make your case.

Germanway/Frenchway are the things to do if you want FFF and those rely on 600 teams. Outpost running is irrelevant and has been for a long time. The last 2 Desert tours I got (yes, I was lazy) were from a Necro of all things. As for Droks there is no reason a Dervish can't do that run just as well if not better than a permasin. GoM is what...18 mins HM with SF? You can come very close to that with H/H if you know what you are doing, no cons.

Nobody is doing full DoA on their lunchbreak and even if they did it wouldn't be with SF. Gloom or City maybe but not Foundry, an imbagon will always be a better option in there.

I am sure it can be done, but wiki says you need SF. Everyone knows wiki is the bible of guildwars *sarcasm*

Actually I have to disagree here, it is much faster because you dont fail as a runner that much. Pretty much nothing in the game will pose a reall challenge to you. The droks run was nerfed many times, i.e. water hexes, spirits, huge mobs with lots of KD, etc etc. Being slowed down as a runner hurts alot, espcially when you can be the target of spells and hit by a lvl 26 warrior.

That is the whole point, SCs dominate the game more than any other farms EVER have. Also why are they called speed [BOLD] CLEARS [/BOLD] You aren't actually clearing anything, all you do is fight the smallest number of foes possible so you can complete the quest or mission or objectives. When you say clear, I think it means you clear the entire area of foes, anyways that was way off topic sorry.



Yep, but an Obby tank cant provide enough dmg to clear city and gloom with just a bonder. Any obby tank also has to commit more skills, and often times a secondary prof to be a good tank. SF tanks really only need 2 skills be invincible. Both OBBY and Sin tanks need earth +AL enchants, but because the obby can still be wanted and attacked these are much much more important. The Sin tanks still have plenty of room to bring incredable broken shadowstep skills (recall anyone) and they also take enough damage to solo the Fury, both something that I think and OBBY tank cant do.

While a truely elite guild, with elite players in that guild can still complete DOA in less than any hour with an OBBY tank, the SF tanks are much much easier to use for the shadowsteps and damage they can provide. Oh yea obby tanks run slow, sins dont.



Really they can keep SF permantly maintable but the problem is when you combine cons, shadowstepping, PVE skills and the earth magic skills it makes it way over powered. SF is great for solo nich farming but when almost every build out there "requires SF" it needs to be toned down to be on equal levels of other options. The other big advantage of SF too is that with CONS you dont need a secondary prof to maintain it, which compaired to terra tanks is a huge advantage

Wiki says, and I quote:

"Pretty much any good runner build will do, regardless of profession. This spot is very flexible."

So...as I said, SF just makes things faster, it doesn't break things.

Nerf SF...and you can still run. Huh. Funny that.

Yes...but SF is not the root cause of those speed clears. Which is what I've been repeating ad nauseum. You nerf SF, and you still have speed clears, just ones that are a little bit slower.

And the point still remains, SF is not the cause of speed clears, just the most efficient at doing them.

Nerfing SF causes build shifts, not a game change.

See my last two replies, because this is getting repetitive.

And see the one before.

Nerfing SF does not "help the game", it just slows it down. The same problems you people are all whining about will still be there.

No matter how you look at it the current PVE meta is extremly stale and boring, maybe if they nerf SF or some of the support skills invovled then you might see a meta change. Also extremely fast game play isn't a problem if there is alot of content, we all know thats not true for guildwars.

Dusk you are correct nerfing SF won't make "speed clears" impossible but it will greatly reduce the number of people completing them, their locations, and greatly increase the difficulty. Really the true advantage of SF is the fact that it allows for great bar compression. You have 5 or 6 slots and a secondary prof for, WHATEVER you want, running, damage dealing, damage reduction, healing. It also allows you to ignore large mobs that most other teams have to fight through simple because you are immune to most of the PVE monsters. The general tactic for most speed clears is fight as little as possible and do the most damage in the shortest amount of time so when you have to kill its fast. I am sure any elite SC guild out there will tell you that if you want to go faster you need to fight less.

If SF is nerfed I don't think dungeon speed clears will be possible anymore. UWSC maybe possible but before SF got huge terratanks did most of the work. I am not sure if the new spawns will still allow terra tanks to do the quests. Also part of the old UWSCs was a 3 ursan 1 monk team for vale and mnts, this obviously is no longer feasable. I really have no idea, I have done most SCs once just to see what they are all about and never do them agian because its boring.

You also point out that SF isn't the cause of most speed clears its just the best way to do things. Well if it is so good that 95% of all the elite area farms are composed of the same basic builds for almost 18 months, dont you think thats a little OP and should be fixed? (SF is the core of every elite build, the only thing that has changed is the dmg source, but its still tank and spank)

The point about SF making running easy is that the only running builds were vow of silence dervishes, vow of silence lasts for 10 seconds, 12 with a 20% enchant mod. Barely enough time to recast it, also its worth while to note that its extremely hard for a inexperianced runner to do that. Now'a'days any old sin can run you anywhere aslong as they press 1 2 3 every 25 seconds or so.

Fast game play is never a problem if people want fast gameplay.

Okay, let's assume that things like dungeon speed clears are not possible after SF is nerfed. Why is that good? Unlike UWSC, dungeon clears are hardly dominant, and finding a PuG is rarely an issue. Dungeon clears are only used by experienced groups that want to clear an area fast - which also results in cheaper rare skins.

If Dungeon running is not possible, why is that good? Once again, running is not so dominant that finding a real group is impossible, especially with the Z-Bounties. Running provides an alternative, one that does not hinder your play in the slightest.

And if UWSC's are not possible...will you're PuGway build see play then? No, still not. Instead you'll be shoehorned into "optimal" teams, which will still exclude many classes.

Manlyspike has the widest range of character classes used that I've ever seen, and it wasn't created because skills were nerfed, it was because other skills were made useful.

UWSC is the only one that actually runs a full Perma team (okay, -1). If that's really such a huge problem, then update UW so that 8 players can't go and solo 1/8th of the area each.

As for "OPed", that's a pure cop-out term. If the problem is stagnating builds, update skills so new builds become useful.

The problem is never that an area is "too easy" or that the game isn't "hard" anymore. How many players do you think actually give a damn about that? The attitude that taking away possibilities makes something more fun seems so ridiculous.

If you want to make things less stagnant, the better solution is to make improvements without creating artificial limitations on existing things. The problem with nerfing SF is that its not "changing the game", it's taking away a shiny toy and forcing you to rummage for the battered ones that you threw away before.

And what's the problem with running being easy? How does that hurt the game any?

And don't give me any crap about not playing the game "properly". That's not a valid argument, ever.

I don't know that it will make a difference in the game but all the elitists on guru will start bitching about something different. So the only thing that I see that it will "help" is all the "s" and "f" keys on the keyboards of those who still think there's such a thing as a balanced PUG.

then go play quake or any other type of FPS game. The common explanation for not fixing current SCs is because it allows anyone to log on and clear UW 3 or 4 times in an hour then be done. This is never the case to do these clears you need EOTN ranks and thats hours and hours of griding



I am pretty sure dungeons were designed to provide more semi elite areas than previous campaigns. Pre-EOTN each campaign had 1-2 elite areas. You shouldn't be able to solo FOW, so why should you be able to solo a dungeon? The problem with SF and dungeons is the ablitity to solo ALL of them. Also dungeon SCs shouldn't happen in my opinion because rare items should stay rare and expensive. You know along time ago FOW armor was a sign of being a very experianced and rich player now it means nothing

Running is for lazy players, the majority of which have no idea about guildwars game play. If you really have no friends ingame, can't find a guild or a buddy on guru that is just sad. With one other person every dungeon can be done with effort. This game is pretty easy compared to many other games. If you can't figure out how to play then you really dont deserve to get your GWAMM or complete dungeons.

I don't have a pugway build. I have no intrest in pugging anyways because 70% of the people out there just have discord heroes and have no idea about other builds, classes, team synergy, or effective builds, so in my opinion they are bad. I would prefer my guild, my heroes or just not do it over pugging


Point is for the last 18 months the meta has been. SF tank balls up several dozen mobs and then "insert XXX way spike here" kills them fast. Rinse and repeat and you have your end chest in record time. The other thing is SF tank puts up sliver armor and then uses PVE skills to finish off the mob, sometimes its the other way around.

UWSC is the only one that actually runs a full Perma team (okay, -1). If that's really such a huge problem, then update UW so that 8 players can't go and solo 1/8th of the area each.

No need there are already plenty of useful skills out there besides SF.

The whole design of factions was to stop running. In prophs running was a HUGE problem because of constant scamming. The problem can be summarized in that you could make a presearing char, get to lvl 5 then find a run from Ascalon CIty to beacons and beacons to droks and have max armor on your lvl 5 char and play through the whole game with it being really really easy. Runs from LA to Sanctam Kay were also really popular. So considering ANET designed a whole chapter to counter running it certainly is seen in the design's eyes as a problem.

Really it comes down to this. Guildwars used to be a fun game with good players and a mature community overtime there has been a power creep with the addition of PVE skills, consets and heroes. Insane buffs to skills via PVE and PVP split has also really dumbed down the gameplay. The end result is this game is little more than a glorified version of the orginal mario which was really easy. For me I am quite annoyed that all the awesome farm builds in the proph only days were quickly nerfed once they became very popular but now SF and all its similar farms are left alone. I really want to know when was did farming become the acceptable end game for PVE?

To be honest i agree with most of what your saying...

.. but lay off the sugar

Well I don't know what anet's thinking now, probably gonna introduce a new dhuum quest that can't be done without a balanced party (based on halloween lead-ups?). If that's the route they choose to take, they're gonna have to do a bitchload of things...

Something stirs deep in fissure of woe
Something stirs deep in catacombs of kathandrax
Something stirs deep in shards of orr
Something stirs deep in rragar's menagerie
Something stirs deep in (insert shadow form farming dungeon)

Agreed they should stop being gay about it and just nerf SF already.

The right question, was buffing SF anything good to the game...
It just made players forget 600/smite because they got something worse to complain about.
If they dont nerf SF, be prepared for another buff...

That's all well and good, but it's meaningless. What you personally want the game to be has no bearing on what is good for the game.

You say running is bad. Fine. That's your opinion.

You say dungeon running is bad. Fine. That's your opinion.

You want rare items to stay rare and expensive. Fine. That's your opinion.

That doesn't make anything you say more right or more wrong.
You're seriously glorifying the "old" Guild Wars. This "good players and a mature community" you reminisce about was exactly the same as the one you have around now.

And the reason why SF is better for the game instead of the old farming builds is simple: The old farming builds were devoted to creating new gold. The influx of gold created massive inflation, which was bad for the game all around.

SF, for the most part, is limited entirely to rare item/skin farming, or simply exchanging gold between players (for running), which is generally much better for the game economy.

Have to take exception to this statement. The nice thing about people farming gold is that gold is functionally non-transferable for high end trading. Gold farming was hard on the new player, to be sure. "Necessities" like runes and materials get expensive when gold is plentiful. ANet doesn't like this model, because it increases the likelihood that a new player will get frustrated and quit before buying all of the expansions and bringing in friends.

When people farm ectos and armbraces, we get inflation in rare item markets. This happens because this farming effectively increases the amount of wealth players can move back and forth. The supply of those items is fixed or nearly fixed, so we see price increases.

Sure, the prices on the UW/FoW/EotN end chest skins that got farmed to death dropped as a result of SF. But the price of things that don't drop from those chests (eg: Crystallines) went up despite the fact that the game was raining zkeys (and therefore Crystalline drop chances) for over a year. Prices on fixed-supply items went into the stratosphere.

Any time trade markers are being created faster than they are being destroyed, you're going to have issues. Increasing the rate at which they are created only exacerbates those existing problems. All you do by pushing farmers out of gold and into ectos is change who is impacted by the externalities farmers create.

Likewise, all of this is your opinion.

I consider running to be bad since it undermines pretty much the entire game. The only reason it exists is due to dismay. While it might exist for lower-level instances in WoW, Blizzard has at least made the effort to keep the gameplay intact for the current instances.

I do not have problems with people wanting to play through the game "fast", but the integrity and challenge shouldn't suffer for that. For quite awhile now I've been advocating for a much more toned-down normal mode, allowing players of less experience to play through and enjoy the dungeon instead of getting their face stomped in at every effort.

The "rare item" debacle is a bit two-fold: one may argue that because all items are essentially based on appearance that everyone should have access to them. But on the other hand another may state that because the items have nothing else going for them, and because they are simply based on appearance, that rarity should be the only thing going for them.

Well, yes, but the effect is still largely limited to the high-end market, which has no real bearing on "playing the game". When the low-end market is effected, that's when it's a major problem for the general game economy, because you have serious issues with steep entrance into the game itself.

The worst part about SF is that common materials like feathers and dust have gone through the roof, but that can be solved through other means.

Yes, it is my opinion. But unlike your opinion, mine isn't about trying to force my preferences on other people.

People getting runs does not hamper your play-style. Nerfing runs does nothing to benefit the anti-runners, except fuel some elitist egos.

That's why I will always scoff at people spouting junk about "not playing the game properly". It's elitist, and that's all it is. If you can actually give some decent explanation on how other people getting runs somehow hurts your game play, then by all means, go ahead and do so. Otherwise, you're just a jerk sitting in the corner going "Stop having fun guys!".

That still falls into the category of "forcing your personal preferences on everyone else". Rarity has nothing to do with personal opinion, and everything to do with economics and market environment.

If your only reason to nerf rare-items runs is because you want rare items to be rare, that's completely petty.

It's like the government saying that all fruits must be priced at 10x their current value because fruit farmers want to make more money. That's not how the market works.

Way over powered, way over used, way over abused.

Bring a little balance back .

You just have to look at the applictaions for guild membership. Most of them nowadays have sin as their main with 85% of their total character XP. That tells you why it needs changing right there.

PS - NO - that is not a good thing.

I don't use it. So guess what? It doesn't bother me.

You play the way you want, I'll continue to do the same.

What balance "back"? It was never there to begin with. PuGs will migrate to the next best thing GUARANDAMNTEED! So don't kid yourself it ain't gonna happen.

I predicted all this SF crying months ago when CoP was all the rage. I can prove it if I can find that post again. Very lil discussion was had about SF at the time because it was overshadowed by CoP. I was right about all the SF crying then and I'm certain I'm gonna be right again. However this time around the next best thing isn't so obvious. It could be 600/Smite, Save Yourself, Ob Flesh, Manlyway (MoP + 100b) etc... The verdict is still out on this one but 1 thing will remain constant no matter what happens. The crying will commence long after SF is dealt with. The community will do a complete 180 and we'll be right back to square one again. History will repeat itself and this vision of a perfect game will be awash. The sooner some of you realize this the better because this crap is getting old. Given Anets track record I don't see a world of balance ever coming to pass.

The bolded part is the scary part. It's the "don't like it don't use it" argument that can be applied to anything someone else disagrees with. You can use it to defend implementing a Hello Kitty costume, you can use it to insert a God Mode button, you can use it to defend anything you can think of.

The reason I dislike running and farming in general is because I don't believe you should be able to beat an area designed for 8 with less or far less than that, and that what should optimal is a well-rounded, well thought out team build.

Of course, if you want your game to be easy, then that's why I advocate for either a much more toned down NM or an additional lower difficulty setting. Challenge and skill needs to be preserved.

Sadly, the game is way too far past all of that. That's why I'm upset.

But the problem with that metaphor is that the only things that become necessities in the GW world are achieved when you're able to get max gear. Everything else falls into wants, not needs.

And yes, this is about personal opinion. It all withers down to what you as a player would rather have: would you rather stumble upon an extremely rare skin - or would is it preferable to permit every skin with easy access?

Personally, I don't care about achieving specific or rare skins - the weapon I use 99% of the time is an FDS - but I would rather keep the rarity of items because they don't have anything else going for them.

YOU, and anyone else for that matter, can continue to use well-rounded groups builds all you want. This, or anything else, certainly aren't stopping you. If I thought no one should be able to play without wearing a pink fuzzy hat and leopard stripe slippers it doesn't mean it should be. Trying to apply your own standards to other things usually ends up as a poor decision and makes you look like a bitter elitist.

I think they should introduce a Purist Character mode for people like yourself. You then can be content with playing the same game you currently do without having to think about that pesky farmers and runners ruining your experience.. that you don't actually experience.

I'd rather be "elitist" than have the game without a focus.

Of course if all you want to do is stroll through the content to see the areas with little difficulty then that should be possible, but you shouldn't be as recognized for it as someone who actually puts in a lot of time and effort. You don't get an A for not studying and getting all the questions wrong.

Ahh. I see what this is about. You want to feel special for the amount of time you've played GW and the knowledge you've attained. You're obviously far superior to other people because of how they choose to enjoy their game.

Recognized by what, and how? How are people recognized in GW? Titles? Half of those are grind based and I discredit because any person without a job and massive time on their hands can achieve. Fancy black-dyed armor? Waste of money and adds no benefit to your character. Should we bow and clap when you enter a town? I've played GW off and on since it's release and don't have anything that would constitute "recognition". Then again, it doesn't bother me in the slightest and doesn't alter my enjoyment.

Without focus? The focus is to have fun. Don't blame others because instead of finding things to enjoy in Guild Wars you'd much rather concern yourself with what other people doing -- that you can't see or even be sure they are, might I add -- than having an enjoyable time.

The game is what it is, not what it was. Neither you or I can change that, so just enjoy what you can of the game.

Why shouldn't players be recognized for being good at the game?

Recognized by having skill, and by anything that tells that player that the devs appreciated they put so much effort into their game.

What you have to do to earn those "rewards" is what matters, though.

And "fun" is quite a subjective word.

Some people find fun in pressing space bar the whole time while they've typed in IDDQD, i.e. god mode. They have fun while putting little to no thought in the game.

Others find fun in knowing that they were challenged even using the game's best tools, and that mastering the game indeed takes quite a long time. They enjoy being presented difficult challenges, tough encounters, and having to spend time to develop what to bring.

The thing is that both spectrums can be pleased. You can have a game that's accessible while also being incredibly in-depth. ANet only has a game that's accessible with all the depth lowered/erased through running, "tanking and spanking", PvE skills, solo farming, etc.

That's why forums exist.

But no, I do agree that this game is way past it's shittiness to ever be amended.

they just need more PBAoE on enemies. solves the problem right there.

A better AI would be the main helping hand here. SF and farming in general would be easily countered if the enemies weren't so stupid.

Because in PvE this doesn't exist. Too many people with GWAMM nowadays. So much so that trying to distinguish the good from the bad is impossible. So whatever superiority complex and recognition you are trying to achieve is futile. No one will notice and quite frankly no one cares. In a game with hundreds of thousands if not millions of players there will always be someone better then you at something. Elitism doesn't fly very well, just shows some people are more of a geek then others.

Only exception is PvP where you have a ladder and monthly tournaments. There is no such ladder in PvE. There is no way to know if you are "good" or "the best" at what you do. Case in point. I've never seen nor played with you in game Bryant. For all I know you could suck really bad but I wouldn't know. So where exactly is this recognition you seek? No one sees it and a few screen shots here and there isn't good enough.

Outside of your own lil circle of friends how many people recognize you as a good player? Have you achieved the recognition you seek? Do you think you or anyone else will ever achieve the same kind of recognition that [rawr] recieves in PvP in the PvE format?

Because it's an absolute joke for people to find a sense of accomplishment in something fictitious. As sexy as that l33t 15k armor is, 99% of all people in this world don't care. The same goes for getting GWAMM in GW; guess what, it's not getting you a promotion in real life.
As I hear from the "elitists" in this argument, is that it's like a QQing "oh I got my stuff this way, now these nubs are getting the stuff I got and then some? Oh this is some grade-A bullplop, nerf pl0x!"

If A-net nerfs SF (which seems likely) I frankly don't give a damn because there will be a new SC soon enough which... surprisingly... will end up being much faster than the older SC methods. (Remember how everyone thought ursan was such pr0 shit and it was sooo fast, then SF comes along and amg people were panting for breath in real life :P)

And here's the kicker: in 10 years time the people who got the mini kanaxais/gwamms/rareweps/armor/minis won't even care about their own accomplishments, so why care about something you won't remember in a few years?

The existence of SF affects everyone whether you use it or not, because its very existence defeats the purpose of all other builds. Ever laughed at someone who put mending on their bar? Guess what? If you're not using SF, you're doing the exact same thing. There is essentially no point to most of the classes in the game as a result of SF, because it's so superior. If you don't use SF, you are gimping yourself. Do you really think that an optimal party should be 8 invincible assassins? Do you really think this sort of thing was meant to be in the game? Of course it wasn't, because it defeats the whole purpose of playing the game.


So, basically what you're saying is, god mode is ok.

Great. Then go to the suggestions forum and suggest that every class be allowed to maintain SF indefinitely. If it's ok for one class to be able to beat everything, it should be ok for everyone, right? It's not like it would affect your gameplay, correct?

Do that and I'll take you seriously. Until then, I am forced to assume you have ulterior motives for opposing a SF nerf, whether you realize it or not (I imagine most SF supporters don't realize it though, considering how many of them deny it's brokenness).

Also, while you're at it, go suggest that players be allowed to use assault rifles and RPGs. After all, I'm sure some players would enjoy it. Those who don't think it belongs in the game can simply choose not to use it, right? And don't forget the laser guns and orbital bombardment skills! And Bamf! We have to give that to the players! Also, we need to throw in some monster that looks like George Bush, because some players would enjoy beating him to death with a hammer!

While I admit that that little sentence in my post wasn't too well in-tune with the rest of what I said, taking it out of context wasn't entirely the best move. I'm not looking to get recognized by others, I want my skill to matter, and I want to be recognized by the developers for doing so, just like when you receive an achievement in a random game where you beat the best of the best with what you got.

But in regards to this little portion:

I haven't achieved the recognition I seek because there's nothing left in the PvE portion that actually requires any effort.

Nearly all of PvE can be completed by slapping the best H/H builds on your bar or just going to PvXwiki. So many tools are available in the game that allow you to bypass skill and mistakes (ranging from large to minor). PvE is pretty much a joke, lacking depth and integrity. It's not a game that I want to spend a lot of my time on because the only things that these "rewards" require is a large amount of time, and that's not why I've played Guild Wars. If I want to be rewarded for how much time I put into something I'll play WoW, because even with tank-and-spank mindlessness it still takes far much more of my knowledge of the game than GW's PvE ever will.

And while yes, I can go to PvP to truly test my "mettle", that's not the point. Plenty of games are able to have difficult, challenging, and in-depth player vs. environment encounters. Guild Wars has failed in that respect.

I don't care what other players think about me or even if they know me (why else would I spend my outpost time in the Int. district?), I just want GW require a lot out of me. But sadly, it does not.

So, no. I won't ever receive the recognition for my skill from ANet because it doesn't exist. You are right. There is nothing in PvE that recognizes skill because it doesn't require any.

The only reason people are so adamant about SF is because it's the best of the best. Many here like to paint SF as the sole reason that PvE is screwed, but it's just one of many farming builds possible in GW. Nerfing it will achieve little.

Unfortunately, Anet isn't trying to fix the game on a broad scale, they're just hitting what's the most successful, attempting to "balance" farming (a concept entirely broken in itself).

what again is the "purpose of playing the game?" i thought that the playing of any game was for enjoyment. we all bought the game in order to have fun with it. if he enjoys running teams with 8 invincisins, who cares? if you don't like doing it, so what? enjoy the game you want to enjoy and let everyone else enjoy the game the way they want to.

i don't really understand this debate anymore. just because you don't like something, doesn't make it bad for others to enjoy it. i've argued both sides of this in the past, until i realized that not everybody likes the things i like. maybe you should take a minute to think about that.

That model worked fine for 1990s single-player RPGs. It isn't the 1990s any more. In an online game, your actions affect others. That's why people care what you do.

We have these arguments because ANet has tried to build a big tent that pleases everybody. It's what their business model demands; they need to sell copies to realize revenue. Unfortunately, the strategy of "try to please everyone all of the time" leads to a lot of inconsistencies. The largest of those inconsistencies is that squeaky wheels get grease.

Rather than set, espouse and follow a consistent set of policies that dictates nerfs, ANet has chosen to approach the problem in an ad hoc manner. If people complain loudly enough and long enough, something gets done. The chances of something happening increase if the complainers are the "right" people that ANet chooses to listen to more carefully.

There doesn't have to be rhyme, reason or logic for people to complain under this regime. Mechanics changes have distributional consequences; they don't affect all players in the same way. If you nerf SF, players that use it heavily get punished and players that don't effectively get rewarded. So you naturally get a polarized debate influenced by personal interests.

Because mechanics changes don't affect everyone equally, the "live and let live" argument won't wash. Your argument is functionally indistinguishable from a self-interested "GIMME MOAR ECTOZ" argument; the greedy player simply cloaks that desire in something like your argument that is more palatable to others.

Really, I don't see the point of getting rid of SF now.. It'll just cause unwanted controversy and the damage on the economy has already been done.

No doubt that there is more people with chaos gloves these days. They still worked hard for it though and what's wrong with ecto pices at 5k?

Keep it the way it is Anet and please your customers going into GW2

SF being nerfed is sad but it wont change much imo

heres wut will happen:

1) SF Nerf
2) people go crazy/commit suicide/rage quit the game/ QQ
3) ecto and shard prices rise to ridiculous amount
4) someone finds a way to bypass the nerf with new build
5) people calm down
6) everyone goes back to over farming crap
7) ecto and shard prices will go back down


so yeah ggqq w/e