Will nerfing SF really help anything to do with the game?

Day Trooper

Day Trooper

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guild With No [NAM???]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ghetto Prophet View Post
And for all you people complaining about how invincible SF is; I would just like to point out that before SF people used OBSFLESH TANKS. It's the same nonsense, just took a little longer.
I'd like to point out a few flaws with this 'Obby Flesh' assertion:

1). While true that Obby Flesh tanks did do UW before the SF-craze, they needed the help of Ursans in order to get past the Chamber and get to the entrance of the Mountains. Why? Because Obby Flesh tanks would get creamed by the Aatxes and Graspings. Also the Ursan team did Vale and Mountains. Then came along the Permasin, who could do all these areas solo (except Wrathful Spirits)

2). While Obby Flesh worked well for some parts of UW, for other aspects of the game like dungeon running it pales in comparison to the efficiency of the Permasin. Just yesterday, I heard about an all Permasin FrostmawSC team that could do that dungeon in a staggering 13 minutes! As Permasins can just run their merry way past all the non-essential stuff in a dungeon, I can see how this kind of time would be possible. No way in hell could an Obby Flesh tank (or any other class I imagine) ever achieve a time like that.

The key with SF is being able to run past all the stuff that's not necessary to kill, and thus allows groups to easily speed through not just UW but most other elite areas of the game.

Also, as others have stated, the unmatched speed efficiency of SF extremely limits playstyles, and so peeps are forced to either play Sins, H/H or attempt to team-up with others who don't use SF.

The above are reasons why imho Shadow Form is still broken and should see further updates (and not just a change to one zone ANet).

This being said, I've come to the conclusion that ANet won't touch SF any further, but the main point of my post here was to clarify that you really can't compare Obby Flesh (gogo 50% movement speed reduction and attacks still hit you) to SF...

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winry Sagara View Post
123 (12 if under effect of the ESENCE OF CELERITY) and you're invincible. 678 for GoLE, EBSoH and Sliver Armor to kill stuff. Is this playing a game?
There's nothing wrong with wanting to play the game in a much more simplistic manner. But there's a problem when playing as such gets you through the later and more difficult areas of the game.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winry Sagara View Post
123 (12 if under effect of the ESENCE OF CELERITY) and you're invincible. 678 for GoLE, EBSoH and Sliver Armor to kill stuff. Is this playing a game?
Its really too bad that the majority of sins can't even do that correctly, at least 50% of pugs utterly fail even with the so called 12/123 (and quite a few "guild" groups too)....usually accompanied by a whole bunch of ridiculous overused excuse: Lag, there's popup, there's popup (browser), MSN message froze his comp, "sound downstairs, maybe robber", "my mouse click didn't respond" (yeah...mouse clicking skills), and my favourite "it wasn't my fault, the game code is buggy".

I can't imagine what happens when somehow we have to do "balanced" group....frenzy/heal sig wars + click skill prot monk against 300 dmg aataxes ftw?

Of course...this doesn't even take into account areas like EOTN dungeons and DoA which are even more rigged against pugs for less reward.

Reverend Dr

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
5) The option of being invincible in an online game shouldn't exist.
It really amazes me how obvious this should be and yet people are actually trying to argue to keep it.

I mean I've used grossly overpowered builds in PvE and PvP, but I've had enough since to say, "I use this because it is very effective, but yes it is overpowered." Is it really so hard to say this? Or is it that they don't want to admit it because they are afraid Anet might change things, which would mean they are deliberately trying to shape the game for their own personal gain? Or is it that the staunch defenders really just have zero idea about game design?

own age myname

own age myname

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Minnesota

[TAS]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Its really too bad that the majority of sins can't even do that correctly, at least 50% of pugs utterly fail even with the so called 12/123 (and quite a few "guild" groups too)....usually accompanied by a whole bunch of ridiculous overused excuse: Lag, there's popup, there's popup (browser), MSN message froze his comp, "sound downstairs, maybe robber", "my mouse click didn't respond" (yeah...mouse clicking skills), and my favourite "it wasn't my fault, the game code is buggy".
Who says those didn't happen? I've failed to maintain SF because I had a lagg spikes, so you wouldn't believe me?

Kc Quipor Ultra

Kc Quipor Ultra

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2009

Belgium

TRL

E/Me

If the SF will be nerfed , a other class will be over powered

Vazze

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Day Trooper View Post
I heard about an all Permasin FrostmawSC team that could do that dungeon in a staggering 13 minutes! As Permasins can just run their merry way past all the non-essential stuff in a dungeon, I can see how this kind of time would be possible. No way in hell could an Obby Flesh tank (or any other class I imagine) ever achieve a time like that.

The key with SF is being able to run past all the stuff that's not necessary to kill, and thus allows groups to easily speed through not just UW but most other elite areas of the game.
I think the LT should make the "The Mad King's Influence" a permanent PvE skill. Maybe add another one for the heck of it: "The Mad King's fury: every foe within radar range dies and drops an ecto". Wouldn't that be fun?

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Day Trooper View Post
I'd like to point out a few flaws with this 'Obby Flesh' assertion:

1). While true that Obby Flesh tanks did do UW before the SF-craze, they needed the help of Ursans in order to get past the Chamber and get to the entrance of the Mountains. Why? Because Obby Flesh tanks would get creamed by the Aatxes and Graspings. Also the Ursan team did Vale and Mountains. Then came along the Permasin, who could do all these areas solo (except Wrathful Spirits)
We also didn't use individual consumables, or have Nicholas rock candies. Stack enough run buff on the Obs Flesh tanks, and they'll run safely past the Graspings and Aatxes. We were still under 30 minutes with the Ursans clearing Mountain, Vale and Chamber while wasting a slot on a pure healer. People have learned a lot in those 18 months, and that'll push teams well under 30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Day Trooper View Post
2). While Obby Flesh worked well for some parts of UW, for other aspects of the game like dungeon running it pales in comparison to the efficiency of the Permasin. Just yesterday, I heard about an all Permasin FrostmawSC team that could do that dungeon in a staggering 13 minutes! As Permasins can just run their merry way past all the non-essential stuff in a dungeon, I can see how this kind of time would be possible. No way in hell could an Obby Flesh tank (or any other class I imagine) ever achieve a time like that.
I'll agree with this assessment. In a lot of dungeons, you'll be back to 605/smite or 605/smite with alternative solutions for spots with enchant strips. That will slow people down quite a bit. But you can still pound out, say, Kath in about 40 minutes. And that's before people apply themselves to the new problem and find ways to shave time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Day Trooper View Post
This being said, I've come to the conclusion that ANet won't touch SF any further, but the main point of my post here was to clarify that you really can't compare Obby Flesh (gogo 50% movement speed reduction and attacks still hit you) to SF...
Again, eat enough Nicholas candy and the movement speed reduction goes bye bye. The real drawback is that you're going to take damage and that Mantra of Earth/Stone Striker only go so far in reducing damage. (No way you can use Stoneflesh while running past things.) That will make running past content slow or impossible, depending on whether or not there are safe spots to hide in like the old school W/Mo Forgerunner did.

toocooltang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

USA

ToA

W/

Since when if something is abused in PVP will it not be abused x10 worse in PVE, espcially when its buffed. see the thread below

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=472448

and amen day tropper

Coney

Coney

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2008

Hmm, not banned yet?

One must wonder, why they still allow the perma crap. I mean, why not add more MOBs that strip enchants. Make it slightly more difficult for the "NO PAIN ALL GAIN" 7-8 Assn groups...

Caligo

Caligo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2005

Missouri, USA (GMT -6)

Stop Stealing [agro]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
We also didn't use individual consumables, or have Nicholas rock candies. Stack enough run buff on the Obs Flesh tanks, and they'll run safely past the Graspings and Aatxes. We were still under 30 minutes with the Ursans clearing Mountain, Vale and Chamber while wasting a slot on a pure healer. People have learned a lot in those 18 months, and that'll push teams well under 30.

Again, eat enough Nicholas candy and the movement speed reduction goes bye bye. The real drawback is that you're going to take damage and that Mantra of Earth/Stone Striker only go so far in reducing damage. (No way you can use Stoneflesh while running past things.) That will make running past content slow or impossible, depending on whether or not there are safe spots to hide in like the old school W/Mo Forgerunner did.

Sooooo, what you're REALLY saying is that any time new content is implemented (in this case, partywide and personal consumables), anet should destroy an elite skill? Or, how about they should just take away the cons! How silly of them to add something to boost SKILLS without thinking of the consequences it would have on SKILLS... Really? If they honestly implemented all these things (pve skills, consumables, elite buffs/nerfs) without forseeing the toll it'd have on farming and the economy, they should really be finding a new developer team... The game is changing. Most people who have played since the beginning either pvp, /afk power trade, or FARM. Why wouldn't you take advantage of a more efficient way of farming? The point has been made over and over and over again: even if SF and OF are nerfed, there WILL be another "broken" way to efficiently farm. Why waste your time crying to no end, but to ruin other people's gaming experience. I've seen several times throughout this thread of "In other games..." this and "...other games" that... if GW is such a horrible game in comparison, go play your other games. You paid your dues and had your fun, now let everyone who still enjoys playing do so in peace.

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

@ Caligo:

1) Yes, I think the devs regularly implement changes without foreseeing their impact. R/A, anyone? Just the most recent example.

2) The skills should get nerfed because: god mode is bad, ANet has had a clear policy of nerfing OP farm builds and your OP farm build affects the play experience of others.

If you wanted to spare Obs Flesh, you could blow up all of the personal consumable run buffs (not Essence). But the QQ from that would be epic. Either way, SF has to go. Making it easily maintainable was a terrible idea from the start.

Tastyy

Tastyy

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
2) The skills should get nerfed because: god mode is bad, ANet has had a clear policy of nerfing OP farm builds and your OP farm build affects the play experience of others.

How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?


About economy, ectos have always been 6-7k/ea. SF didn't change that.

I honestly think it's sad how people want to squeeze the tiny bit of fun that's left of GW. For veteran players like me, all I do is farm. I think it's fun. I'd be damned if someone wants it taken away because they either feel that no one should be richer than them (I'm holier than thou) or think it's bad because oh, no, the economy, the economy, oh no.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?
That is in fact exactly it. Knowing that you could have done something much faster, more efficiently and with a greater chance of success sort of kills the fun for everyone who likes to play as good as they possibly can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
About economy, ectos have always been 6-7k/ea. SF didn't change that.
That's funny, I remember ectos being 13k. Mr. Veteran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
I honestly think it's sad how people want to squeeze the tiny bit of fun that's left of GW. For veteran players like me, all I do is farm. I think it's fun. I'd be damned if someone wants it taken away because they either feel that no one should be richer than them (I'm holier than thou) or think it's bad because oh, no, the economy, the economy, oh no.
Only a complete retard would care about something as utterly pointless, random, and already beyond all hope wrecked piece of crap thing as the so-called economy. People still play for fun, for the challenge of actually playing, not farming. If you think that is sad, then I think you are sad.

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
That is in fact exactly it. Knowing that you could have done something much faster, more efficiently and with a greater chance of success sort of kills the fun for everyone who likes to play as good as they possibly can.

That's funny, I remember ectos being 13k. Mr. Veteran.

Only a complete retard would care about something as utterly pointless, random, and already beyond all hope wrecked piece of crap thing as the so-called economy. People still play for fun, for the challenge of actually playing, not farming. If you think that is sad, then I think you are sad.
Farming is playing regardless of if it's how you prefer to play and a lot of people find both a challenge and fun from it. How you think these things are mutually exclusive is beyond me.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?
If people are having "fun" at the cost of the game then I suppose you could call us a little upset.

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again View Post
If people are having "fun" at the cost of the game then I suppose you could call us a little upset.
And what cost is Shadow Form imposing on your game?

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
And what cost is Shadow Form imposing on your game?
Imbalanced and broken gameplay.

coil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again View Post
Imbalanced and broken gameplay.
is there really a point in changing things now since they've been going on for so long?

if anything youll still be "behind" and it will be 10x harder for you to "catch up".

damage has been done, get over it, have fun while you can and qq.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
Farming is playing regardless of if it's how you prefer to play and a lot of people find both a challenge and fun from it. How you think these things are mutually exclusive is beyond me.
Ill explain it to you. You confuse farming with the SF issue.
You wanna farm the hell out of tengus for feathers , undeads for orr emblems or 55 fahranur or whatever ? fine , i dont care but when it comes to MISSIONS or ELITE ZONES that are supposed to be a challenge ( yes , THAT is a challenge , not trying to do a SC in 9 mins ) and someone has a "godmode" button ( skill combo , call it whatever ) .... that challenge becomes a zone where X ppl farm whatever.

Let me put this clear , dont be mistaken , there are haters , farmers , and ppl that just see things from the outside and see it all clear. SF is broken and it affects the entire balance of the game when it comes to endgame playing. No matter what you do or what you think , that is an undeniable truth so if someone answers "no" to the OP question , that someone is clueless about GW.

If your "challenges" are searching for ways to farm X , then youll be pleased because right now , that "challenge" doesnt exist pal , lets be serious .

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again View Post
Imbalanced and broken gameplay.
I again ask, what cost is Shadow Form imposing on YOUR game? Are you using SF? It's not as if they have PvE monsters that chain skills for perma-SF, and even then it'd be easy to bypass. It's also not causing any hysteria in PvP.

So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
Ill explain it to you. You confuse farming with the SF issue.
You wanna farm the hell out of tengus for feathers , undeads for orr emblems or 55 fahranur or whatever ? fine , i dont care but when it comes to MISSIONS or ELITE ZONES that are supposed to be a challenge ( yes , THAT is a challenge , not trying to do a SC in 9 mins ) and someone has a "godmode" button ( skill combo , call it whatever ) .... that challenge becomes a zone where X ppl farm whatever.

Let me put this clear , dont be mistaken , there are haters , farmers , and ppl that just see things from the outside and see it all clear. SF is broken and it affects the entire balance of the game when it comes to endgame playing. No matter what you do or what you think , that is an undeniable truth so if someone answers "no" to the OP question , that someone is clueless about GW.

If your "challenges" are searching for ways to farm X , then youll be pleased because right now , that "challenge" doesnt exist pal , lets be serious .
SC's will occur either way. The speed will undoubtedly change, but to what degree we don't know. Will people then complain about Spell Breaker? As that will undoubtedly be the next main farming skill if a SF nerf were to occur. I'm all for them buffing elite zones against SF -- the UW changes were a welcome change of pace and challenge. If the elite areas are the only things you are all worried about, why nerf a skill across the board? That doesn't make sense.

Sparda

Sparda

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

The Netherlands

N/

I haven't been here for a while now but i'll give my 2 cents about this.
I can recall that linsey said in an interview why it takes a while to nerf them.
She said i quote "Skills like ursan and SF allow people to play places where the normaly can't come"
So i think the skill of current players is just low. So in my eyes nerf all those skills who allow noobs to come in places where the don't belong.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
SC's will occur either way. The speed will undoubtedly change, but to what degree we don't know. Will people then complain about Spell Breaker? As that will undoubtedly be the next main farming skill if a SF nerf were to occur.
I didnt say that SF is the only broken skill/combo , thats another matter. What happens before of a possible SF nerf ..... ill tell you , i dont really care but circumstances doesnt chance the fact that SF => SC. Maybe is lack of knowledge , feel free to pm me with some SC that has no SF in the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
I'm all for them buffing elite zones against SF -- the UW changes were a welcome change of pace and challenge. If the elite areas are the only things you are all worried about, why nerf a skill across the board? That doesn't make sense.
See ? that is bad , a bad bad bad reeeeeeeeally bad idea. Its like "hey , my dog cant stand cats ... lets kill all cats in the world ! problem solved " . If you wanna nerf the runner , NERF the runner , dont BLOCK the way because blocking the way or making it impressively difficult will create more problems and solve none.

Im not worried about elite areas only , im worried about endgame , that involves a lot of things ...... most of them broken because of SF. Dont be mistaken , is not a matter of "i want my cookie back" or "this is like that because i say so" but ignoring a problem because it doesnt bother me or you doesnt make it dissappear.

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?
Production creates externalities. The game doesn't have sufficient quality ecto/armbrace sinks to keep a lid on prices if it's easy to make currency. Make it easy to create ectos, and prices on scarce stuff get stupid.

Make it easy to create ectos, and skill > time becomes time > skill. That's great if you're sixteen to early twenties and made of time. It's fail if you're not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
About economy, ectos have always been 6-7k/ea. SF didn't change that.
So explain why a clean mini Kanaxai that ran 2000 ectos in 2006 (pre-dupe) will now run fifty times that. Besides, you're just dead wrong on pricing. The standard before the recent expectation of an SF nerf was 22 to 23 for 100k, around 4350-4500 each. They've been as low as 27 to 28 for 100k (height of the Chaos Plains farm), and as high as 33k or so before the trader reset back in 2005 when the trader code was bad.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?
It doesn't.

It doesn't affect my game any more than a mode that allowed you to play PvE in a WWII tank. Or making it where the Power Rangers came down from the sky to help you complete an area. Or ANet officially implementing an optional UI mode where you saw fully exposed breasts everywhere, or a language setting that put "shit" in between every word.

So obviously, "how it affects my gameplay" is completely not the point.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
I again ask, what cost is Shadow Form imposing on YOUR game? Are you using SF? It's not as if they have PvE monsters that chain skills for perma-SF, and even then it'd be easy to bypass. It's also not causing any hysteria in PvP.

So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?
Wow. I'm sorry for your parents.

What is playing a game well about? It's about making optimal choices leading to winning the game. If those choices are fun to make, victory will be entertaining both to achieve and to play for, which combines to make what is known as a fun game.

I have an example for you. If Word of Healing is better than Healing Breeze, then if the choice is between those two, you'd be stupid to choose Healing Breeze. The problem is, what if Word of Healing didn't just heal, but made you invulnerable? It would still be better than Breeze, but it would be so good that it makes the game boring since it's too easy. There's no challenge left, except meta-challenges like speedclearing some elite area one minute faster than some other team, or dumb shit like solo running some dungeon in 7 minutes, or even better, paying someone else to do it. Which is boring and not what GW is supposed to be about. But you'd still be stupid to choose Breeze.

And oh hey that's just what Shadow Form does to GW right now. It makes you choose between stupid and boring. Neither option makes for a fun game, as I explained above.

Here's where I know what you will say next.

What if you enjoy inferior skills? Yeah, there are people that like to intentionally or not play crappy skills or builds, using stupid tactics and generally be retarded. I don't.

What if you want to make your own challenge by intentionally picking bad builds? Well, apart from the obvious difficulty of finding a team for anything that isn't the Zaishen quest of the day, that challenge should be provided by the game, not by yourself. That is what balanced gameplay is all about.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
I again ask, what cost is Shadow Form imposing on YOUR game? Are you using SF? It's not as if they have PvE monsters that chain skills for perma-SF, and even then it'd be easy to bypass. It's also not causing any hysteria in PvP.

So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?
It forces me to either use SF or intentionally play a crappy build. I don't know about you, but I and many other players don't like doing what amounts to putting mending on our bar. But we also don't like being invulnerable.

Also, how can you ignore the fact that SF, for all intents and purposes, removes most of the content from the game? The monsters might as well not exist, since they can't kill you. The other classes might as well not exist, since there's no reason to play them unless you want to suck. And every other elite skill might as well not exist, since there's no reason to use them unless you want to suck.

Hailey Anne

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2007

A/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior Babes View Post
i just dont get one thing.
IF so many ppl want to SF to be nerfed.. how come i dont see them in GW?
Because guru is NOT the majority of players.
its the minority. This is just where you see the whines about SF because this is where the dictators like to show up.
SF in no way affects how anyone else plays.
People say oh well I cant get in groups if im not a sin. Well get a guild.
Well my guild only does SCs with sins. get a better guild.
There are obviously players that want to do balanced teams. Like here in this thread. Get together go do your balanced teams and let others play how they want.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hailey Anne View Post
SF in no way affects how anyone else plays.
Then explain why the profession that I wish to play with is not allowed in any FoW, SoO, or UW group? So basically, I must grind with a character and build I can't stand repeatedly. That's not playing.

Let players play the game.

own age myname

own age myname

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Minnesota

[TAS]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
Then explain why the profession that I wish to play with is not allowed in any FoW, SoO, or UW group? So basically, I must grind with a character and build I can't stand repeatedly. That's not playing.

Let players play the game.
Find a guild? If your guild doesn't want to do things with you, you are in the wrong guild, sorry.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

My guild does things with me, but not speed clears. Sorry you didn't understand that.

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
It forces me to either use SF or intentionally play a crappy build. I don't know about you, but I and many other players don't like doing what amounts to putting mending on our bar. But we also don't like being invulnerable.

Also, how can you ignore the fact that SF, for all intents and purposes, removes most of the content from the game? The monsters might as well not exist, since they can't kill you. The other classes might as well not exist, since there's no reason to play them unless you want to suck. And every other elite skill might as well not exist, since there's no reason to use them unless you want to suck.
So from all that you said, if they were to nerf SF you're stuck with a crappy build? And once said nerf goes into effect that every single team will be garbage? That is either a huge exaggeration or it completely doesn't make sense.. I'll let you decide on that one.

I don't know about you, but when I play my Monk the monsters exist and are very difficult in elite areas. You see, as I'm not using it, it doesn't affect me. Not in the slightest. Outside of farming, running and SC's SF isn't very good. As most players just play the PvE side of things, it really isn't that great of a skill in normal team play. As I said before, it is the design of elite areas that causes gimmick builds/teams to thrive. Fix the areas and you fix the problem. There should not be that much of a discrepancy between a balanced team and a SC.. ever. And I think that both are too far an extreme, both ways.

Everyone begging for a nerf might as well start a guild or arrange SF-free runs. Guess what? You get what you want. It'd be just the same as if it was nerfed. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again View Post
It doesn't.
That was the conclusion I've come to as well.

Let's be honest here, SF isn't the problem. When they buffed SF back to the state it currently is in, people weren't up in arms about it as they are now. It simply wasn't that much of a concern. Before it was simply solo farmers running UW for ectos, so it was no big deal but once it became the necessary build for UW PUG's, then it became an issue (much like UB). The real issue is simply the UWSC and it's effect on the precious ecto currency exchange. That is it.

UWSC is the main target and SF is taking the brunt of the force.

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Wow. I'm sorry for your parents.
I know this will be difficult for you, but don't be an idiot.

If you'd like to continue the debate, act like your daily duties don't include Hall Monitor.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
So from all that you said, if they were to nerf SF you're stuck with a crappy build? And once said nerf goes into effect that every single team will be garbage? That is either a huge exaggeration or it completely doesn't make sense.. I'll let you decide on that one.

I don't know about you, but when I play my Monk the monsters exist and are very difficult in elite areas. You see, as I'm not using it, it doesn't affect me. Not in the slightest. Outside of farming, running and SC's SF isn't very good. As most players just play the PvE side of things, it really isn't that great of a skill in normal team play. As I said before, it is the design of elite areas that causes gimmick builds/teams to thrive. Fix the areas and you fix the problem. There should not be that much of a discrepancy between a balanced team and a SC.. ever. And I think that both are too far an extreme, both ways.

Everyone begging for a nerf might as well start a guild or arrange SF-free runs. Guess what? You get what you want. It'd be just the same as if it was nerfed. Period.


That was the conclusion I've come to as well.

Let's be honest here, SF isn't the problem. When they buffed SF back to the state it currently is in, people weren't up in arms about it as they are now. It simply wasn't that much of a concern. Before it was simply solo farmers running UW for ectos, so it was no big deal but once it became the necessary build for UW PUG's, then it became an issue (much like UB). The real issue is simply the UWSC and it's effect on the precious ecto currency exchange. That is it.

UWSC is the main target and SF is taking the brunt of the force.
"Good" is a relative term. Currently, SF is the only build that is "good", because everything else in the game is crap compared to it. If you're not using SF, you might as well be running a nuker build as a warrior.

If SF is nerfed, then what's "good" changes. Builds that used to be crap would then become more useful, because, again, everything that isn't SF is useless right now, whether people admit it or not.

Also, UWSC is only the beginning. Though it is the place where SF is most prominent, it is by no means the limit to what it can do. In fact, there is no limit. Really, there is nothing in the game that cannot be done by SF. In the rare cases that 1 SF sin is not enough, bring 4 and I guarantee you will succeed. Even Anet admits that SF is being abused for everything now.

And stop pretending SF doesn't affect me. It affects me the same way Ursan affected people: you run it or you don't get to play.

You're also ignoring the fact that it is GODMODE. You are telling me that what amounts to removing nearly every mechanic in the game (from monsters to classes to skills to health) is a good thing? Godmode is bad. I can't see how you can argue that it isn't.

Oh, and if it's really ok for godmode to exist in the game, then why are only sins allowed to have it?

I'll tell you what. Go to Sardelac and suggest that every class be allowed to maintain SF permanently. Unless and until you do that, you are a hypocrite. So, come back after you've done that and then we can have a real discussion.

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
If SF is nerfed, then what's "good" changes. Builds that used to be crap would then become more useful, because, again, everything that isn't SF is useless right now, whether people admit it or not.

And stop pretending SF doesn't affect me. It affects me the same way Ursan affected people: you run it or you don't get to play.
Claiming that SF is so widespread that "you don't get to play" is a bunch of hysteria and quite frankly, complete bs. If you expect to play for the high end shineys then you need to either develop some flexibility and run the meta or join a guild complementary to your playstyle. This is how it's always been with high end content even before SC runs got popular and there are years of precedent. If your main is a Dervish in PvE then that is part of your problem. There are better options for your role in the party, nerfing Assassins won't change that.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

Actually, I wasn't speaking from my own experience there, for precisely that reason (grumble grumble, anet hates my class, grumble grumble).

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
That was the conclusion I've come to as well.
I hope you're not taking what I've said out of context?

Point is, nothing added to the game will affect how you play it unless you use it - which means "how it affects 'your' game" is not the point here, since you can not take anything considered "harmful" - armor with tits, skills with swear words in them, weapons with swastikas - .

So don't start spewing the "it doesn't affect your game" bullcrap, since you can use that in defense of anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
Let's be honest here, SF isn't the problem. When they buffed SF back to the state it currently is in, people weren't up in arms about it as they are now. It simply wasn't that much of a concern. Before it was simply solo farmers running UW for ectos, so it was no big deal but once it became the necessary build for UW PUG's, then it became an issue (much like UB). The real issue is simply the UWSC and it's effect on the precious ecto currency exchange. That is it.

UWSC is the main target and SF is taking the brunt of the force.
Many people are short-sighted here. A lot say that SF is the "damnation" of GW and that fixing it will fix everything. SF is just part of the tip of the iceberg that is GW's problems.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
It forces me to either use SF or intentionally play a crappy build. I don't know about you, but I and many other players don't like doing what amounts to putting mending on our bar. But we also don't like being invulnerable.

Also, how can you ignore the fact that SF, for all intents and purposes, removes most of the content from the game? The monsters might as well not exist, since they can't kill you. The other classes might as well not exist, since there's no reason to play them unless you want to suck. And every other elite skill might as well not exist, since there's no reason to use them unless you want to suck.
The players that strive to play the most efficient build do not oppose SF.
It would be insane to do so.

If the goal on the other hand is to have "fun" then there is no problem with not running SF. The game isn't balanced around SF, meaning that content would only be doable with SF, which means you can run things that you find fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
Production creates externalities. The game doesn't have sufficient quality ecto/armbrace sinks to keep a lid on prices if it's easy to make currency. Make it easy to create ectos, and prices on scarce stuff get stupid.

Make it easy to create ectos, and skill > time becomes time > skill. That's great if you're sixteen to early twenties and made of time. It's fail if you're not.
The high end market still works the way it should.
It excludes players that do not have enough money to participate in it.

The only difference is how the money that is used to participate in that market is earned. And that is irrelevant to the market itself.



Everyone else benefits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
Then explain why the profession that I wish to play with is not allowed in any FoW, SoO, or UW group? So basically, I must grind with a character and build I can't stand repeatedly. That's not playing.

Let players play the game.
Those teams aren't playing teams.
Those are farming teams.
That's why you guys don't team up.


Or to put it in simpler terms:
The guys are asking for a SS necro, while you are offering an Ineptitude mesmer.
You aren't what they are looking for.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
I know this will be difficult for you, but don't be an idiot.

If you'd like to continue the debate, act like your daily duties don't include Hall Monitor.
Can't reply to straight arguments, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
As I said before, it is the design of elite areas that causes gimmick builds/teams to thrive. Fix the areas and you fix the problem. There should not be that much of a discrepancy between a balanced team and a SC.. ever. And I think that both are too far an extreme, both ways.
As if SF was only used in elite areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
Everyone begging for a nerf might as well start a guild or arrange SF-free runs. Guess what? You get what you want. It'd be just the same as if it was nerfed. Period.
Why would I want to cut my own legs off? For so many things, SF gives such an advantage over any other option, you'd be a fool to not use it.