Is this Anet's solution to shadow form?

this line of thought is completely wrong and i'll tell you why. you CAN use your ranger. you can use ANY profession you want. to cry that you can't shows your own lack of comprehension of the game. no one is telling you to run a sin OR ANY other profession.

the fact of the matter is that one build will arise which is superior to all others for completing the objectives in the fastest amount of time. this is an inherent fact with ANY area. and guess what? people who want the drops from the end chest don't want to spend hours getting 1 chest when they could get 2, 3, or even 4 chests in that same time by using a more efficient team build.

so who's the smart one? the one using the most currently efficient build (at the moment) and actually getting his end chest?

or the one crying he can't get in a group and not willing to change professions because he's too morally superior?

seriously, it's a game meant for enjoyment of playstyle. the way others play really has no bearing on how you should/do play.

and to those arguing that they want to "balance" pve. what does this even mean? it's not pvp where each team is on level ground and skill should be the determining factor. its 8 (or 12) players with varying levels of skill vs 100's of lvl 25-40 monsters with special skills. that's inherently not balanced.

oh but you argue that god mode isn't fair....

go tank in doa and tell me it's godmode. go into uw and solo the whole area and tell me you have godmode. SF isn't godmode (rending aura, sig of disenchant, conditions, aoe says hi) and those that argue it is either have no understanding of the skill and elite areas or are so biased against it they just cry foul for giggles.

Oh , so you are basically saying "if you dont like it dont use it" and "use whatever you want , how come ppl using SF does affect your game play ?" .... and after all that BS you claim someone`s line of thought is completely wrong. Great .... irony rox huh.

You know what is a person that does run 1 zone/mission/elite zone in 5h when he knows the way to do it in 2h ? ..... yeah i guess you know the answer.

Level 25-40 ? w000t ? . Yeah "is not balance so im forced to use the most broken game mechanics to have any chance" . Oh cmon , do you think we dont have a brain ?.

Never. God mode on multiplayer games is NEVER fair , no matter what you say or do , thats a true fact.

HAHAHAHAH conditions ? from what dude ? from a lot of spells and skills that are untargeted ?. Yeah they are about what , 5% of the game ? maybe 8% ?.
You want the "SF isnt god mode" cookie ? you can have it but that wont save you from the skill update.
What a joke , a SF abuser telling someone that has no "understanding of the skill and elite areas" .... i smell fear for the next update ,high amounts of fear hahaha.

The fact remain, no one has a good logical reason as to why SF is bad. non!

Come watch me then as I never use any protective monks or characters. There's other ways to play this game besides pvx or wiki builds.

You fail because you wear horse blinders and can only see one direction. Where as I test other things that could possibly work and do. Show's who's the better player...ME! )

Im happy that UWSC is nerfed now. The UnderWorld is supposed to be an "Elite"-area. When there comes build that can farm The UnderWorld. It gets boring.

Why should you Speed-Clear actually? Yesh, i can get rich in a short time. But who cares? In MY opinion you dont reserve respect if you are rich and you are just a lifeless SCer.

Why are all the UWSC sins crying now? They can still farm enough! You need to be happy that the made UWSC impossible. What if they changed ShadowForm? That SC's are the past? Would you throw your pc out of your window then?

So good job A-Net ;-) Now is UW harder for players that are trying to do it without SC. So its more fun

*This is my opinion*

Yes it is. PvE is basically a coop game with a social, worldwide lobby function. It should be obvious to anyone that coop games need balance - hell, even single-player games need balance to be fun.

rly?
Well SF gives the ability of !NOOBS! to beat !ELITE! areas in !HARD! mode.
ye..!NOOBS! shall not be able to finish an !ELITE! area, thats why it is !ELITE!

i must say that my experience with UW is limited, i farmed a little, did spider run service and most i was close to completing it was clearing all areas and doing all quest except 4H with guildmate and heroes, but it was way back, before UWSC, HM ,pve skills and consumables. Since that i havn't really dabbed with it till these Halloween quests, so now i went to see the changes and didn't like them a bit, personally i would rather see it reverted to what i remember with all these new pve stuff gone.

"Useful" does not mean "the best combination will always be one of each class". It means that when you're putting together a team, there's actually a real reason for each class.

Let's use an example. Let's say that there are 2 melee professions (X and Y) and only one slot left for melee in a party.

Currently:
"...Yeah, definitely X. There's no reason to ever use Y when X is so obviously better."

If there is a balance:
"Hm...Well, X can do Z better...But then again, Y can do W better..."

See the difference? Either way, X and Y can't both get in, but when there is balance, each one has their advantages and disadvantages, and you can make a decent argument for allowing either one into the party.

Also, balance is implicitly assumed as one of the mechanisms to ensure "fun" in any game. That's why games strive for balance. That doesn't mean that it's always true, but it is an assumption that all games have.

That's the best LOGICAL reason I've read yet. Noobs shouldn't be able to play with the elites. Noobs should remain broke and poor and QQing all day long on Guru instead of in the game. (sorry Guru but they'll have to have some place to go after the nerfing of SF) )

My reasoning would encompass the ability of Shadow Form to bypass 95% of encountered monsters (guesstimate) without being negatively influenced by those monsters.

Also, obviously Anet originally had some intention of SF to be a quick in quick out skill, because it has a severe downside when not maintained: the drop to ~50 hp after 45 secs. This downside never occurs because player are able to perma the SF.

I for one think everyone would stop QQing if there was God Mode for every profession. <.<

I'm disappointed in you upier. PvE is supposed to be about fun rather than balance? How about fun AND balance? It goes back to the age old question...should we allow a 10 billion damage skill in the game if people find it fun? We are playing a multiplayer game for reference...

I never said that I couldn't. Go back, read my post, and read what I'm responding to.
I do use these efficient builds (FoWSC) and I never cried that I couldn't get into a group. You are responding to my post, right?
It does. I've had no trouble finding groups for UW since UWSC was nerfed. In the old SF thread(s), people said that would never happen.
Link
Skill should ALWAYS be the determining factor.
Removal of tanking spells like SF and OF followed by places like UW and DoA being made a bit more PUG-friendly would be good.
Skills that target through SF are fairly rare and some aren't much of a threat. Most of the conditions that can be applied to a perma are done so through traps. Avoid them. As for AoE, move away from it.

I assume you didn't do too well on the Critical Reading portion of the SATs...

Yes, actually it is quite logical. Inexperienced players should not be playing with experienced players. That's not elitist, that's logical.
[QUOTE]Noobs should remain broke and poor and QQing all day long on Guru instead of in the game.QUOTE]
When I was a "noob", I played through the campaigns, experimented with low-end PvP, and expanded my knowledge of the game. That's what inexperienced players should be doing. No one should be clearing elite areas in HM before they develop a deep understanding of the game.

No.

My mesmer can do Mobway, SoOSC, and FoWSC?

The only way to lose SF in doa is to melee attack the dervish (why would you do that?), rending sweep has to have a hex so someone has to be fukkin up and be close to you, chillblains which requires someone being really really close to you thats not the other perma.. you have to try to screw up being a perma in doa.

And also you dont have to run a perma to beat doa....its just ten times faster, but less skill.


But UW, you pretty much need a tank of some sorta to beat it. Its not hard. In fact most of the quests are pretty easy once you know what they are. But with the skeles, old methods don't work. Now instead of balls-ing through with balanced you need a tank to hold off a side on several quests, because skeles pump out way to much everything ignoring dmg. Aggro more than 2 with a group in balanced and you could potentially have a problem. Esp. when you can't determine how much you aggro in several of the quests.

Meta team builds for Elites have always been restrictive on profession and build selection. Outside of a brief day in the sun with Echo-CoP Mesmers do not get a lot of love in high end PvE. A long list of other, better, options exist to fill party slots which are at a premium. You should have at least a handful of other characters as options to re-roll with, ideally something in the holy trinity, if you are serious about doing high end content.

Only true if your read through your "fingers in ears - la, la, la I'm not listening" filter.

You could try reading the posts that don't support your view of the universe.

If you think imba economy isn't a factor, then lets roll back the loot nerf (actually, yes please). If you think that free play is important then lets support even chances to get into a team regardless of profession. If you supportt he concept of skill>time then where does broken form fit in?

God mode is just no game mode. Why don't ANet just implement cheat codes? Would that be better for you?

Because it has an overall negative effect on the Guild Wars player base.

I've said it before. Solo farm all you want and create as much personal wealth as you like. It does not detract from my ability to enjoy Guild Wars. But imba skills like SF does (as did Ursan) in that, in order to play in particular areas, you are "forced" into specific (and mindless) builds.

There you go.

Because there are 10 professions in this game.

As of right now, only 1 of them is worth playing. All the others are worthless by comparison.

This is bad.

Now hold on everyone! pumpkin does have a point here, no reason to why nerfing shadow form is logical. However, you post is a bit vague on what context you are using logical in. Would you care to post what logical means to you, and why none of the posters seem to follow it? Thanks

Let's fall back on the basis for our society: The Reasonable Person Standard. Does anyone here reasonably believe that any of the Elite areas were designed so that they could be beaten in 15 minutes or less?

If your answer is no, then it's reasonable to assume that Anet will continue to balance the game when combination of skills synergize in ways that Anet did not consider, such that FoW, UW, DoA are not longer Elite.

Finally since you're being logical, me ask you this: Given Anet's history of balancing skills when they feel necessary, why would you consider Shadow Form to be immune?

yeah bro i did.

but i was also generalizing the response to alot of others who cry about it.

basically, now, youre saying you want tanking skills killed and areas made easier. gg you got me there. but "elite" areas are supposed to be "hard" and stacked "against" you..inherently unbalanced...right?

then anet is at fault for not making them more prominent. obviously they have counters for their own skill. why they dont "balance" the areas i dunno.

yeah just don't hex when an illusionist is up.

back to clearing dhuum gl

So, you're saying anet should redo the skills for most of the areas of the game (with who knows what unforseen negative effects), just to balance SF without changing the skill?

Why not, oh I don't know, nerf it directly? Seems a lot easier and more direct to me.

I'm going to steal MithranArkanere's post from another thread since he makes a very good comment.

Oh btw, I use and exploit SF to make ez monies as well...that doesn't mean that I don't think it should be changed

sf doesn't actually raise prices for the average player. since the average player will see that sf is a good money making method, they'll also make one. if all players have an sf sin making them money, then the economy will equilibriate to the average player. if the average player does not have sf, then sf isn't that big a problem in the first place.

if farming is that deep of a concern, simply nerf the drop of SF. for example, people who have sf active will have their drops reduced to 30%.

sf is godmode and godmode is broken. both assertions actually have no effect on other players except the farming element. the cheat code analogy is irrelevant. what if there was a cheat codes that limited the total damage a single player could take to 10% for 5 min? but enemies had a 'deactivate cheat code' skill they could use to remove it? then the game would still be exactly the same as it is - the cheat code idea could be applied to any skill in the game. furthermore, farm related skills could be nerfed to prevent all of farming - sliver armor, soj, radiation field, etc.

game intention is irrelevant. the evolution of classes and their intended use from prophecies has wandered quite a ways off - to the benefit of the community. the best protters are eles or gons, not monks. the best healers are n/rt. people used to need damage absorbers (warriors). this is part of the game's evolution - the original intention is irrelevant as new builds are introduced.

sf is mindless. possibly - but less so than say the game bejewelled or tic tac toe. yet those games have stood the test of time far longer than gw - simplicity is not a testament of necessary change. it is, like many things, a mere preference.

as such, leave us alone. the high school population flipping burgers of course want to prove themselves with a well thought out build in a video game since they have nothing but time. the older fan base simply wants a game to be fun with a possibility to be innovative, not for it to be forced upon us. kids of course have to cry for balance to legitimize their epeen. the rest of us are too busy building a real life to want to deal with drastic changes - especially for just a hobby.

No I shouldn't. And here above is an example of someone telling me what profession to run.

Hell no as I want challenge I just don't want some noob being able to get to the good stuff by gimmick builds that's all. Learn how to play as I did. Become skilled as I did. Put all the time and effort into the game as I have (over 5000 hours thank you very much) and then you can deserve some of the good stuff in the game. )

Who cares? There are numerous ways to farm money in GW, the argument for/against SF does not hinge on economics.

Completely wrong. The discussion about SF specifically revolves around this. I find it interesting that you fail to notice this throughout the 180 odd posts in this thread, and the numerous other threads here.

Wrong again. You make the analogy to classes, but the proper analogy should be to the actual gameplay itself. Can you reasonably argue that the game developers designed Elite areas such that they could be beaten in 15 minutes or less? And has Anet ever balanced skills to the betterment of the game?

Wow, wonderful analogy. So it's okay to murder because others do? Ethics 101 my son.

I could care less what you do in GW, and how much money you make, and what neat items you can ping when you PUG. What I do care about is my ability to enjoy the game. And when certain skills are imbalanced such that everyone is "forced" into specific builds to play specific Elite areas, then I believe that these skills should be balanced, as Anet has done previously.

Tell you what, how about we give you the ability to simply type /rich over and over. That's about as difficult as running a SF build, and right up there with your bejeweled analogy.

ANET could just as easily give people the ability to have an all hero team for all you "balance" aficionados as well. This way you could run your own team and builds. That way everyone can play the game how they want it. All this could be avoided if ANET did a better job at testing skills before releasing them. I mean it's their job after all. Why is it that these people supposedly test extensively for weeks, months, or years to put out skills that are supposed to be balanced. But it takes a matter of hours to days for a broken build to be developed?

Keep SF for the real farmers.
Step up effort to catch criminal activity that takes from ANET.
Give PvE'ers 7 heroes so they can H/H without handicap.

Do that and I bet all the QQ'ers would go away.

this part of the post was actually a bit funny. has there EVER been any situation in a PuG, or hell, even a guild setting doing HM content, Elite areas, or any form of PvP? are you saying that you want to run whatever build you want to clear an area? You might as well be saying 'OH MY GOD, PVP IS TOO RETURDEDED, I CANT USE MY OWN BUILD PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND MY BUILD QQ/RAGE". I mean seriously. Any where you go, anything you do (unless your with your sabway or discordway heros which I am almost positive you abuse the hell out of) people will REQUIRE you to use builds that are most effective in that area. Your trying to swing your epeen, and noone gives a damn. Balance in a game with over 1000+ skills and tons of profession combinations to choose from, what your asking is impossible. Let people play the way they want, instead of acting like a <13 year old.

this, also, is funny. Someone who cant even use correct sentence structure actually thinks they are good at this game. You actually CARE about what people have in a game? That is sad and pathetic. Oh, and once you log over 8000+ hours on your account, you can actually respond.

Definitely not. You completely missed the point.

SH is a farming skill.
And in farming, looking for options that achieve a comparable effect never took place. You either used the SINGLE best option for the job or your farming efficiency went down the drain.

And when it comes to playing - the main criteria to be accepted into a party will be "shit-ton of damage". Either by preventing said shit-ton or by dealing it. And if you aren't doing this - then you don't have a PvE use.

Actually if you look at some of the Dev Updates, you will see that A.Net explicitly mentioned "fun" as the reason to incorporate the most insanely unbalanced crap. Balance took a back seat to fun.
So to come here and argue that SF is bad BECAUSE it's not balanced is like saying that the colour blue is bad because it's blue.
Of course it's not balanced.
It's not supposed to be.

Read this post by Test Me, could not have said it any better myself.

And here ^ we have your typical forum troll. Who the fark cares about sentence structure Moe? This isn't jr. high here nor are you my mentor. I could definitely school you in the game though boy.

It's hard to respond when you forget to type out the other half of your question.
Of course your build should be designed to handle what is expected in a given area, but there shouldn't be ONE build for ONE profession that I have to have just to find a group.
Throwing out random insults that don't actually apply to the post you're quoting, eh?

At the unbolded section: Surely we can do better than our current situation.
How overwhelmingly ironic... By the way, mastery of a language doesn't have anything to do with GW playing ability.
That seems like something you would keep to yourself...

If lack of balance was fun, players would have been given access to BAMPH! After all, that skill is even more "fun" than SF.

Also, once again, if you really believe that SF is ok, then go to sardelac and suggest that all classes be given the ability to maintain it. If lack of balance is fun, and SF is more unbalanced than everything else, then it's not fair to the other professions, because they are denied the ability to have as much "fun" as the assassin.

Also, there is more than one type of balance. Skill balance is something that is impossible for this game. However, profession balance (which is what I'm talking about) is well within the realm of possibility. SF destroys all hope of that.

The problem is that you are basing your demand for class balance on farming. And farming NEVER had even a hit of class balance.
It was ALWAYS just the single best option and nothing else.
And today, this is SF.

Actually, I'm basing it on standard play, where SF also happens to rule with an iron fist.

And if farming is all there is to the game, and SF is the best, then why are only assassins allowed to use it?

Even if you believe that SF's overpoweredness is not a problem, the skill itself is still a problem because only assassins have access to it's power. It's not just broken; it's also unfair.

Sorry, I don't think that Anet should add more DoA-type areas as a counter to SF. If an entire team (or solo runner) is running varients of a single build in an elite area, either the build is too strong and should be nerfed/changed or the area needs to be relooked at

What? How are the elite areas not designed to be repeatable? There are repeatable quests as well. THE GAME IS OLD, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PLAYING THE SAME THINGS.

They aren't abusing one skill though.

I think that if you were to remove the ability of perma sins doing damage, the amount of complaints would die off. If anet wants to keep invincibility in the game, so be it. HOWEVER, there should be no reason that that invincible build can do large amounts of damage as well. I wouldn't mind a SF tank, since they can do crowd control for the other group members. There is no reason why a perma sin should farm so many things that other profs can't by this one build.

People aren't blaming the players for abusing the skills, they're blaming Anet for not nerfing it.

The ONLY reason why you would grind fow/uw is for the shinies. They haven't made a requirement where you have to grind UW/Fow to get bonuses in GW2. I haven't seen a whole lot of QQ grind threads back when the elite areas were introduced, so don't try to tie grinding into it. If you want a weapon, you're going to have to work for it.

You doged my question pumpkin, I'm still wondering why no one in this thread has a "logical" counterargument.