Shadow Form meets the end

The question is how toned down to these areas need to be made? NM Dhumm can already be done with two players + 6 henchmen in about two hours, and the builds can only get tighter as time goes by (future skill balances unaccounted for, of course). And they can do it without SF, for that matter.

Also, allowing "newcomers" to get through elite areas also sounds a little.... off to me, personally. By the time you're attempting these areas you should at least have some grasp on what's skills are good for what situations.

edit: But, yeah, I agree with what you said about items. I don't see why getting rare skins and difficult titles is seen as so necessary, but apparently they are to some. I can understand wanting something, but getting upset if your favorite (or the best) method of working towards them is nerfed because it'll take you longer (or, even crazier, being upset because a skill allows people to earn these items faster, making your own worth less)..... I don't know.

Go to ToA, what groups are forming? There is RARELY a UW grp that gets far without a perma SF.

Only wandering into an already-cast AoE, touch skills, environmental effects, and some dervish-type enchants go through SF. You have nearly full immunity to spells and attacks. Depending on what area of the game, I'd say that's 90-95% of ALL damage right there, and if done properly it can be maintained indefinitely. Now why the hell would you take a warrior tank that can't really do damage and doesnt have nearly the same kind of skill as that? Dont forget, perma's can tank AND put out damage.


And guess what? You're wrong, because Anet admits it and has a total functionality change planned. My only complaint is that they're JUST now doing something about it. As if people being able to farm 200 ecto in less than a week (trust me, I did this) back in the summer of '08 didn't set alarms off. All along all they've done is make the whole UW more difficult when in reality all it required was this change.

EDIT: Yes, they did nerf SF after the mindblade incident and change the plains, but the fact remains that they allowed such an OP'd skill effect to remain in tact is beyond me. Hell, I want prot bond back if you think SF isn't godmode.

sf is not godmode

Just because someone can farm 200 ectos in less than a week back in the summer of '08 does not make it godmode.

On the subject of PvE assassins being weak in non-SF PvE: this is untrue.

Let me describe the bar.

12+1+1 Critical Strikes
12 Dagger Mastery

Golden Phoenix Strike
Death Blossom
Moebius Strike
Optional
Optional
Optional
Critical Agility
Critical Defenses

It has a constant buff of +33% IAS, has a total of 94 armour at max Sunspear (this is nearly the equal of a Warrior with Sentinel insignia, except the Assassin has room to throw on Survivor insignia instead), 75% chance to block (which, if maintained, is constant). Already you have one of the most survivable frontline builds.

Only three slots are needed for the ridiculous damage of MS/DB chains.

You then have three slots left for whatever you want, two of which can be PvE skills. This means you could bring support for the party like Vanguard wards or SY, you can bring Dash for regular movement speed boost, you can bring Pain Inverter or similar utility, you could lengthen the attack chain by one and get a more steady, less risky chain, etc. You could bring cover enchantments, condition removal, whatever.

Without shadow form, the Assassin remains the ideal front line damage dealer, with both the highest damage and the best survival.

Or, for those who like the scythe:

Critical Strikes 12+1+1
Scythe Mastery 12

Critical Agility
Critical Eye
Way of the Master
Aura of Holy Might
Asuran Scan
Malicious Strike
Optional
Optional

There is one critical issue you failed to address which makes your whole argument void:

PUG People who only ever experienced assassins as either dirt-naping narutos or SF tanks and would rather take elementalist as hm damage dealer.

And that matters why?
I think the fact some is trying to party with such n00bs is a whole bigger problem in the first place.


Trolling ain't cool. Don't do it.

Leave them in their ignorance. PUGs were always stupid, no need to care about it now. They'll either evolve or die. Probably the latter.

Because it means that any proof of assassins being actually sturdy, powerful and usefull PvE damage dealers does not make it through once people start QQing after SF nerf happens.

Warriors have shields also.

/12characters

i think they should keep sf blocking spells and just let attacks go threw it that would make it not as powerful but still a pretty good skill, however this might be to similar to sb idk

Agree here, there are a number of areas in the game that many players have never experienced, that is bad game design. Now we have two modes there is no reason why every player cannot experience the whole game.

Yeah, it's more like "noob mode". Seriously, any game mode that gives a player invincibility is god mode, so while it's a nice catch phrase you are trying to foster, it simply isn't true.

change shadow form? cool
change prot spirit? neato
change discords? sure
change obby flesh? go for it

a new farm will arise.. oh, just you wait.. and I'm dying to abuse it

As long as you kill him before he hits you he can do as much damage per hit as he wants! Such a gimmick!
As long as you run in the other direction so he can't hit you... WHAT A GIMMICK!
Monk uses Word of Healing on half-dead player! GIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIICK.

Warriors do big damage in Guild Wars, and Aatxes are level 29 Warriors. If that's a gimmick, then the entire game is. And, if the entire game is a gimmick, then nobody who praises any aspect of it has any place to complain about any specific aspect being as such.

As an aside, the marketing strategy for GW was, by definition, a major gimmick.

You just don't take the effort to troll anymore, really.

Name me one game where they allow you to be permanently invincible to 90-95% of skills, all attacks and any spell.

edIT EDIT! Online game.

Name me one reason why everyone feels the compunction to keep cross referencing GW to the other games? If I cared about what other games did, I would be playing those games. Again, if this broken build was wreaking havoc in PvP, then it would be a no brainer. This is PvE for crying out loud. Where your opponents are digital manifestations, not real people. No matter how you cut it, this is about people wanting to maintain the status of vanity items which aren't even real. If people are really that petty, then some self examinations of their real lives are in order. The beauty of it is that I've seen a lot of responses saying that, while it should be nerfed, people still had no qualms about abusing it in the mean time. Talk about hypocrisy! Power gaming in and of itself is not bad. Most people who power game have already beaten the game the "good old fashioned" way. Some people just look for ways to have a different kind of fun. This right here is how I envision all you purists.

Because a few of those "other games" are able to be successful and praised without dumbing down the entirety of the game to the lowest denominator.

Try again, sir.

QFT: This isn't about purists and people who like things the way they are, they just love their e-peen. " I want the most ecto, and I want the most value for my stuff and I don't want anyone else to be nearly as rich as I am." SF really narrowed the gap between powertraders/farmers, and guess who doesn't like the one group getting close to their own? Face it there's 3 things left to do in this game: grind titles, farm, or powertrade. And some people use #2 to supply #1, and nerfing SF cuts off the funding to finish off some "money-sink" titles, thus leaving the only option left to do in GW is powertrade, and I'll be damned if I have to spend even one second powertrading an item in kamadan, and I'm sure many people have that same idea in mind.

The funny thing is...in many other MMORPG or just plain Online RPG, with enough grinding to max level and all the uber gears, its possible to get to the point where everything barely scratches...

So if you compare SF to those games...

For 5...18 seconds, all hostile spells that target you deals 1 damage and all attacks against you also deal 1 damage.

LOL.

Give everyone in the game every single gold item and infinity gold and I'd still be here saying the same thing.

Some may indeed care about perserving item rarity, but others actually do care about preserving an in-depth game.

Nice. So if there's a problem with the title, we obviously should change the game and not said title?

ya'll wanna see the BEST part of this whole thread???

Go back and read it again, from the begining, and take note of the very direct ratio of illiteracy to the support of keeping SF like it is.

The people happy about the nerf can spell and read and write and use punctuation and even go so far as to type out the whole word "you" instead of 'u', while the sins complaining about the upcoming changes...well...

Some of these posts read like nails on a chalkboard.

Seriously, check it out, I'm not making this up.

To give another perspective (a similar one has probably already been given, but oh well), I've been playing on and off for over 4 years, logging just about 1000 hours into this game. I've been maybe between casual and not. Just the other day was the first time I could say I've had 1000k, and I'm working towards maxing Sweet Tooth, it'll look swell with the currently 7 other maxed titles I've done on my necro over the past 50 months. I'm by no means a power player, but I'm more than casual, especially in recent weeks.

I say keep SF as it is. SF isn't ruining my experience with the game in any way. I made an assassin maybe 2 weeks ago, to see what all the SF fuss was about. I haven't done a UWSC, I just kind of made a perma and dicked around a bit. I haven't touched it since before Thanksgiving. But I'm comfortable where I am, and SF isn't ruining my ability to do anything. UWSC's have kept ecto prices pretty low, but even that doesn't affect me that much. If Sweet Tooth points are 150g or so per point, why do I care if that means 5k = 1e = 33pts, or 15k = 1e = 100pts? Either way it's 150g/pt. Just an example.

The majority of GW players do not trade ectos en masse. They do not look in their storage and see stacks and stacks of ectos, and then go off trading ultra-rare minis. The majority of GW players also do not do UWSC. The majority of GW players are casual, more casual than the average player who frequents GWG, I'm sure. And for them, does SF hurt the game? Not at all, they barely notice it.

Was my post eloquent enough, or are you going to continue to be an ignorant elitist? You failed to capitalize at the beginning of your first sentence. "Ya'll" isn't a word, the correct conjunction is "y'all." 3 question marks at the end of a sentence are unnecessary. "Beginning" has a total of 3 Ns in it, not 2. Your third "paragraph" isn't a full sentence. See, I can complain about people's spelling and grammar too, but at the end of the day if you get your message across that's all that really matters.

That's a fair point but I think the biggest concern isn't the cost, but the amount of time it takes to accumulate the wealth to buy enough points for these titles. If you get 5 ectos per day then the difference is 165 points per day vs 500 points per day. Obviously the person getting 500 points per day is going to finish faster.

Granted its unlikely that prices will go up if the supply remains constant, so it may be a moot point. But even so I'd rather get 1 ecto and get 100 points than 3 ectos for 99 points

You are correct on all counts, sir. At least the points I quoted here, as I didn't read the rest of your post. However, before you go calling me an ignorant elitist, you missed one very important point:

I never said which side I was on.

So, in closure, I would like to cordially invite you to commence in a rousing round of hide-and-go-goredengine-yourself.

enjoy!

The speed that other people can make the money to get to max Sweet Tooth has no impact on me though. It's not a title that has any bearing on actual gameplay, save for getting Favor of the Gods, and let's be honest, that's nothing. If it takes me a month to get the 1500-2000k to buy the sweets, why does it matter if someone else can get the money in 5 days?

If you're going to be absolutely competitive about being the first, the fastest and the richest, you're going to use every gimmick you can find, whether it be SF or something else. The fact that SF exists in its current form doesn't change that, it just changes specifically what you may do.
Yeah you'd rather get 100 points for an ecto than 99 for 3, but my point was that the average person makes money by collecting gold, not ectos. Obviously you're never going to get to the point where everyone's happy though.
Fair enough, though if you make a post that solely points out the poor spelling and grammar and apparent stupidity of one side, I don't think it's a far stretch to say that you're leaning towards the other side. Nonetheless, my apologies.

Don't need to. There are far more players worried about their e-cred on both sides of the SF fence than there are Dudley Do Rights like yourself. If that's how you feel truly, kudos to you. You are definitely in the minority though. Don't kid yourself.

And this just proves my point. Why should a person lose sleep over how some stranger goes about getting a title in a video game that has no real bearing on their actual lives? If they created a new title tomorrow that Phaern and I were going after at the same time. The only way I would have any concern how he went about it was if there was real life money riding on the outcome. Catch that part? REAL LIFE.

If there is no real world consequences in playing this game, then pretty much people should be left to play as they see fit to enjoy it. Point blank. I have just as much fun playing the game honest as I do going God Mode. It just depends on what I feel like doing. Like I said, if a persons self worth is measured through their integrity to a video game then you got issues. RPG's are supposed to be an escape from reality, not a substitute for it.

Is this literate enough for you? Or do you need me to expound further?

I could care less about them, and so should everyone else, including you. They're not the point here. The point is the game.

I think the fairest thing to say is ANet screwed up twice. One, they made perma extremely easy. Two, they didn't fix it fast enough. Now, almost a YEAR later, they finally decided to nerf it. Right when it was just settling in for a nice long stay. Great job ANet.
Its a vicious circle. Big skill changes -> Imba skill -> Super nerf -> Less imba but still pretty imba skill -> Super nerf -> RETARDEDLY IMBA THING THAT PEOPLE JUST DISCOVERED -> ANet says "meh, I give up" -> Imba thing becomes the norm -> ANet says "this is too overpowered and ruining the game" so we will SUPER NERF EVERYTHING -> Damn everything is underpowered, we better try some new stuff (go to front)


Empirical evidence: 1. RITway and other overpowered builds (leading to the HUGE overhaul and remake of skills to rebalance PvP) which leads to 2. Separation of PvP and PvE skills which leads to 3. RoJ/SF etc etc


Lets look at PvE separately now, ignoring all PvP related changes. First type of build that comes up: Ursanway, nerfed down, next up, RoJ/Cryway, nerfed down, now, Perma Speed Clears, impending doom. We will just find something else, and eventually it will be us in balanced parties struggling to clear areas we used to clear with our eyes closed.

But who are you to say what's good "for the game?" A game is nothing without its players. If every player except you wants A, and you want B, then guess which one should win? A, regardless of what A and B actually are.

I support leaving SF the way it is. It gets frustrating working with Pugs who either don't listen or are just plain retarded. The simpler the build they have to run the better. Most of the time we finish in a timely fashion with little to no difficulties. This is fun and feels rewarding, which is how PvE in a game should be.

If I want to test my self and improve my skills then I will play PvP.

If I am determined to make PvE challenging I can still do that by refusing to use skills I would deem as "overpowered".

I see no point in calling people out over bad grammar. It just means you ran out of things to add to the discussion and you have to attack others intelligence in order to support your opinion.

Balanced party had never been able to clear any end game areas "with their eyes closed"....yes, that includes NM underworld. Before HM was introduced, before ursan, perma, cryway etc., what most people did was UW smite crawler farming for ecto or Fow solo spider farming for shards. Back then the entire ToA had swarms of Monks, Necros, and Wars going in solo/duo, just like the current sin situation.

So no, it had nothing to do with builds making things too easy and people got stupid....its that the areas had always been too hard (or too frustratingly long) for like 99% of people and when something easier came along the 99% of people just jumped on the bandwagon. Only the remaining few "pro guilds" and a few friend groups was clearing the area consistently.

Fine and dandy if we were able to actually get such a tally.

same like everyone else who has been trying to put "godmode" on SF huh, which is simply not true!

Invalid argument Code=007. Repeated nonsubstance phrase Code=129, provide reasoning or crash is imminent.

Hmmm, it blocks out 95% of all PvE damage (spells and attacks), it can be maintained indefinitely and still do enough damage to solo via sliver, urals, etc... and is the standard most sins and farm groups

These reasons make it usable in nearly every area of the game, which couldn't be said for the 55 (no perma enchant rippage immunity), 600/smite (which doesn't count because that is a team whereas this is a SINGLE player), terraform ele tank, VwK rit, etc...

The fact that any single person running a high end dungeon (except those that might use heros) is a perma sin should say something. And since you didn't get it the first time Anet disagrees with you, they're nerfing it.

Its not an argument. Its a statement

there as many players who think sf is just another skill as there are who think it is "godmode"(WHIT IT IS NOT) just because you want to label it "godmode" (WHICH IT IS NOT) does not make it true, however many "argument" you like to post here. SF IS NOT GODMODE not an argument, just reminding people who happens to read this thread that to you it might be godmode (WHICH IT IS NOT), to me its just another skill.

Out of curiosity, how many ectos have you gotten using this alleged "godmode" (WHICH IT IS NOT)?

FYI: i've gotten zero of any mode of farming using SF, simply because i don't know how to use it... geez! a "Godmode" (WHICH IT IS NOT) that gives you nothing huh.

I'll agree to that, as long as you agree that it is in-fact a horrendously implemented skill.

Let's assume that activating SF *does* enable invulnerability, and make you unable to be killed, touched, or damaged by anything for 5 minutes.

If we give this "new and improved" SF to 8 players to use in an instance and they all still die, what does this mean?

Does it mean that the functionality of the skill is messed up, or are the players not using it properly?

means to me that it a skill that some players know how to use, some don't. and if those that don't know how to use it, will definitely need those who knows how to for getting what ever they can't get to, at a reasonable cost and do you see all the hype of players waiting for ectos prices to go up? while PvE cannot be balanced, i "assumed" that at least, those who can't farm for high end stuffs can still compensate that by collecting lots of gold to buy at reasonable price those items they cannot get to. its the least ArenaNet should make sure.

plus i know how sf works on my ele, but i don't use it, and frankly my Sin has not capture SF yet, simply because i don't see the point, I can use my ele to do most stuffs with H/H without dying (/sarcasm omg, not dying and wiping out enemies like a tidal wave!!! must be GODMODE) just fine.

Exactly.

Now, how easy is it to use?

That's the point.

If you put it that way, all skills are godmode, cos they are all easy to us.