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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
The entire Gaia Online and Solia community has already done so. Unlike you, I am able to understand how others value content, even if I don't agree with them.
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New In-Game Store Item - Limited Edition Wintersday Costume Pack
Abedeus
thedarkmarine
There's no comparison being made like the one you're suggesting. The point is how "just costumes" still are content to some people.
Gli
When you take two things, and one of those things has not a single aspect to it that can be utilized in any fashion without the other thing, whereas the other thing has no such limitations, these two things are not the same. One is subordinate to the other.
If your grand economic master theory says that they are the same, it only goes to show that this theory has little value when it comes to making practical, concrete use of these two things.
If your grand economic master theory says that they are the same, it only goes to show that this theory has little value when it comes to making practical, concrete use of these two things.
Lourens
They look nice but im not willing to pay €10 for it €5 sounds fair
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by Gli
When you take two things, and one of those things has not a single aspect to it that can be utilized in any fashion without the other thing, whereas the other thing has no such limitations, these two things are not the same. One is subordinate to the other.
If your grand economic master theory says that they are the same, it only goes to show that this theory has little value when it comes to making practical, concrete use of these two things. |
Gli
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
The entire field of economics laughs in your uneducated stubbornness. Solia and Gaia Online would laugh too, but they're too preoccupied with staring at shiny things.
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thedarkmarine
Solia and Gaia Online operate by selling avatar items, with no gameplay. All they can do with the items they buy is equip them, and they have a thriving community to support them.
Seriously, utility is utility. They are fundamentally the same thing. An option to pay for people to get some utility. What's so hard to understand?
Seriously, utility is utility. They are fundamentally the same thing. An option to pay for people to get some utility. What's so hard to understand?
Windf0rce
Just bought mine, I really like the Grenth male and Dwayna female versions. Very good for a change on my main characters, and a great option for characters I can't be bothered to buy elite armors for.
Of course, I wanted to support Anet and show them some appreciation too.
Of course, I wanted to support Anet and show them some appreciation too.
Qing Guang
Wow... I log in for the first time in months to check out the Wintersday stuff, and find... this? Wow. Just wow.
I mean, sure, the Dwayna costume looks pretty nice, though totally inappropriate for winter. But why on earth would I want to cover up my beautiful armor, which I farmed for days to buy and carefully selected and dyed to suit my characters, with an overpriced costume that really would be more at home in Aion than Guild Wars?
The festival hats thing is a nice change. Still, I was so excited to find that I could finally wear both my scar pattern and my Ice Crown, only to find that the costume hides the headgear. So basically there's no real point, as I only wear my festival hats during, y'know, festivals, and I was only interested in displaying both the scar and the hat.
So good game once again, ANet. I'm just gonna go over and enjoy more of the new content from Patch 3.3.
I mean, sure, the Dwayna costume looks pretty nice, though totally inappropriate for winter. But why on earth would I want to cover up my beautiful armor, which I farmed for days to buy and carefully selected and dyed to suit my characters, with an overpriced costume that really would be more at home in Aion than Guild Wars?
The festival hats thing is a nice change. Still, I was so excited to find that I could finally wear both my scar pattern and my Ice Crown, only to find that the costume hides the headgear. So basically there's no real point, as I only wear my festival hats during, y'know, festivals, and I was only interested in displaying both the scar and the hat.
So good game once again, ANet. I'm just gonna go over and enjoy more of the new content from Patch 3.3.
Arduin
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Originally Posted by Windf0rce
Of course, I wanted to support Anet and show them some appreciation too.
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Originally Posted by Qing Guang
The festival hats thing is a nice change. Still, I was so excited to find that I could finally wear both my scar pattern and my Ice Crown, only to find that the costume hides the headgear. So basically there's no real point, as I only wear my festival hats during, y'know, festivals, and I was only interested in displaying both the scar and the hat.
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Gli
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Solia and Gaia Online operate by selling avatar items, with no gameplay. All they can do with the items they buy is equip them, and they have a thriving community to support them.
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Seriously, utility is utility. They are fundamentally the same thing. An option to pay for people to get some utility. What's so hard to understand?
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I'm not arguing against that. At no point. I'm just dismissing the relevance of that statement, as I've done from the moment you started quoting my posts. Your magnificent "stuff is just stuff" observation has nothing relevant to add to or take away from the notion that there's a practical and glaringly obvious difference between a GW campaign and a wintersday costume.
You can't utilize the wintersday costumes unless you first own at least a guildwars campaign, yet you can utilize a guild wars campaign without owning the customes at all. That makes these items different. Do you agree that this is true? A simple yes-no will suffice.
Of course, you're going to post again about how they are the same from an ecomonical viewpoint. To which I (again) will say: "So what? That's not what I'm talking about." Repeat ad nauseam, until a mod, in a moment of undeniable wisdom, closes the thread.
Here's an idea, why don't you go ahead and illuminate the issue from a quantum-mechanical viewpoint next? Or when you get bored, maybe you can look at it from an geo-political or neo-pagan viewpoint and see what that tells you.
Zesty
Male Dwayna's Dyed Black.
WARNING TO ALL MALE WARRIORS, When fully zoomed out you may experience this graphics glitch in the Grenth's version of the suit. Tested without Texmod with same results.
If you think 10$ is a lot of money then I srsly pity you. I've payed at least 200$~ on this account and have had an account banned with similar money due to buying the releases at original price. If you don't want to pay for it then that's fine but I don't think it's necessary that you complain about ANet trying to make money. Also, the unlimited amount that you can make for any character, including PvP, along with the pack containing 2 different types of costumes makes it worthwhile if you like how it looks.
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by Gli
What has that got to do with anything?
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| Again, I'm saying that apples aren't oranges, and your claiming they're both fruit. |
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| I'm not arguing against that. At no point. I'm just dismissing the relevance of that statement, as I've done from the moment you started quoting my posts. Your magnificent "stuff is just stuff" observation has nothing relevant to add to or take away from the notion that there's a practical and glaringly obvious difference between a GW campaign and a wintersday costume. |
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| You can't utilize the wintersday costumes unless you first own at least a guildwars campaign, yet you can utilize a guild wars campaign without owning the customes at all. That makes these items different. Do you agree that this is true? A simple yes-no will suffice. |
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Of course, you're going to post again about how they are the same from an ecomonical viewpoint. To which I (again) will say: "So what? That's not what I'm talking about." Repeat ad nauseam, until a mod, in a moment of undeniable wisdom, closes the thread. Here's an idea, why don't you go ahead and illuminate the issue from a quantum-mechanical viewpoint next? Or when you get bored, maybe you can look at it from an geo-political or neo-pagan viewpoint and see what that tells you. |
w00t!
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Originally Posted by Gli
Again, I'm saying that apples aren't oranges, and your (sic) claiming they're both fruit.
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They are different in that they may provide different perceived value Some may prefer the costume because all they do is stand around chatting or trading anymore, some may prefer an expansion because it gives them more to do.
They are the same in that they compete for the same finite resource, namely, your money. That comparison is also relevant. One may depend on the other, but that is a bit of a spurious argument, like saying EoTN is worthless because you need one of the primary campaigns to use it.
So the economic argument is still valid. Apples are not oranges, but they are both fruits and can be compared as such (i.e. the utility argument).
Whether or not the costumes are good or bad is a personal choice. While I may not prefer them myself, I certainly can't blame others for purchasing them, and also can't fault Anet for offering them.
And with that I'll let you have the last word, as we've beaten this dead horse enough. Back to reading my book "End the Fed".
Gli
Maybe I should stoop to arguing the economics.
That isn't a spurious argument at all. In fact, the dependancy that's at work there is a clear indication that GW campaigns and the wintersday costumes are as unequivalent from a microeconomical perspective as from a practically applied perspective: taken side by side, one (the campaigns) are an independent good, while the other isn't. Costumes and campaigns don't compete for the same money, costumes only become an option after money has already been spent on a non-zero amount of campaigns. (Where 'PvP' access can be brought into the equation under the umbrella of 'campaigns' without invalidating the argument that costumes are not an independant good and campaigns are.)
But the difference is even felt economically, to such an extent that the blanket "utility is utility" argument doesn't describe the situation in a meaningful way.
I'm going for glue, thank you.
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Originally Posted by w00t!
They are the same in that they compete for the same finite resource, namely, your money. That comparison is also relevant. One may depend on the other, but that is a bit of a spurious argument, like saying EoTN is worthless because you need one of the primary campaigns to use it.
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Originally Posted by w00t!
So the economic argument is still valid. Apples are not oranges, but they are both fruits and can be compared as such (i.e. the utility argument).
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Originally Posted by w00t!
And with that I'll let you have the last word, as we've beaten this dead horse enough. Back to reading my book "End the Fed".
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Windf0rce
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Originally Posted by Arduinna
Hm, so next time 2 new costumes are on sale for 15$, but you could also buy the same 2 for 20$, but of that ~5$ goes directly to Anet, as sponsorship, you'll be getting the 20$ packaging?
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I just don't really jump the negativist wagon, I think GW is a great game. Of course it is not perfect but nothing in this life is. It is really good, good enough to set my standards really high.
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by Gli
Maybe I should stoop to arguing the economics.
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| That isn't a spurious argument at all. In fact, the dependancy that's at work there is a clear indication that GW campaigns and the wintersday costumes are as unequivalent from a microeconomical perspective as from a practically applied perspective: taken side by side, one (the campaigns) are an independent good, while the other isn't. Costumes and campaigns don't compete for the same money, costumes only become an option after money has already been spent on a non-zero amount of campaigns. (Where 'PvP' access can be brought into the equation under the umbrella of 'campaigns' without invalidating the argument that costumes are not an independant good and campaigns are.) |
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| But the difference is even felt economically, to such an extent that the blanket "utility is utility" argument doesn't describe the situation in a meaningful way. |
Esprit
I don't like when people say 'it's only X amount of money'. Some people have extra money to spend on games, some people run a tighter budget.
Saying it's "it's only this amount of money" is poor justification for purchase of something.
Saying it's "it's only this amount of money" is poor justification for purchase of something.
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Well, of course. I'd like to hear some valid reasons as to why they're opposed of a business making money, though.
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Basically, the costumes are a public bad that individual players have the power to remedy; ANet makes money in part by segmenting the marketplace and in part by creating the public bad that fence-sitters remedy by making a purchase.
The same basic logic exists for why people get all worked up about scarce miniatures that they can't afford; the difference here is that the miniatures actually serve a game function (promote a functioning, liquid economy) that washes out at least some of the public bad of their existence, but the costumes do nothing but line ANet's pockets.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that players need to have realistic expectations about the company they are doing business with. If ANet can make a profit producing this sort of content, they are going to produce it and sell at the price they think will be the most profitable.
Neo Nugget
I just bought the costume pack from the store. Shh, don't tell anybody. 
They're really nice, and I have no regrets buying them at all.
They're really nice, and I have no regrets buying them at all.
Chasing Squirrels
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Originally Posted by Zesty
If you think 10$ is a lot of money then I srsly pity you. I've payed at least 200$~ on this account and have had an account banned with similar money due to buying the releases at original price. If you don't want to pay for it then that's fine but I don't think it's necessary that you complain about ANet trying to make money. Also, the unlimited amount that you can make for any character, including PvP, along with the pack containing 2 different types of costumes makes it worthwhile if you like how it looks.
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Gli
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Also, they don't compete for the same money? You've got some grant or allowance that can only be spent on campaigns or something? The explanation that follows doesn't relate at all. Your position also falls apart for the majority of people here, as they have at least one campaign registered, rendering whatever arbitrary difference you think there is to be further neutralized.
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Since you can only spend money once, the costumes are after different money.
The majority of people here having already registered at least one campaign, how did you think that happened? Could they, perhaps, have already spent money on those?
Guild Wars campaigns have the entirety of the game playing population as their intended target, costumes only have the subset of gamers that have been succesfully targeted with a campaign as their target. Costumes depend on campaigns.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
Because this business model is questionable and it is very possible that another business model would be more successful not just in revenue generated, but in player satisfaction and ultimately game support. The fact that so many people are upset by it being put into place goes a ways to questioning that avenue for revenue.
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I mean really, are people surprised that ANet are doing this? GW1 is done for campaigns, they need to make money. This is obviously an excellent way to do so.
shoyon456
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Originally Posted by Zesty
If you think 10$ is a lot of money then I srsly pity you. I've payed at least 200$~ on this account and have had an account banned with similar money due to buying the releases at original price. If you don't want to pay for it then that's fine but I don't think it's necessary that you complain about ANet trying to make money. Also, the unlimited amount that you can make for any character, including PvP, along with the pack containing 2 different types of costumes makes it worthwhile if you like how it looks.
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2. Hmmm, I wonder why you had that account banned. If it was perma banned, and since you show so much willingness to pay $ for GW stuff, could it have been for using RMT services?
Although I do have a problem with it in principle, my major concern really comes from the fact that people are passing this off as "content." Well, you can pay $10 to get the BMP. That consists of four missions with unique skillbars and objective, with four different skins of EVERY type of weapon in the game for rewards. THAT is content.
For the same $10 one can get these two new costumes that cancel out the appearance of any armor being worn. Well, these costumes are pixels not "content" and definitely not worth the same as the BMP.
EDIT:
And unless the reason they can't put out a skill update even a month after schedule is because they're short on cash, then they should be using their organizing power to do THAT first and this SECOND.
Qing Guang
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
Although I do have a problem with it in principle, my major concern really comes from the fact that people are passing this off as "content." Well, you can pay $10 to get the BMP. That consists of four missions with unique skillbars and objective, with four different skins of EVERY type of weapon in the game for rewards. THAT is content.
For the same $10 one can get these two new costumes that cancel out the appearance of any armor being worn. Well, these costumes are pixels not "content" and definitely not worth the same as the BMP. EDIT: And unless the reason they can't put out a skill update even a month after schedule is because they're short on cash, then they should be using their organizing power to do THAT first and this SECOND. |
I'm not complaining about the skill update, which I couldn't give a rat's about, and which the artists, at least, would not be working on (though I wouldn't be surprised if the people implementing the new costume system might also be in charge of that, considering how few people still work on Guild Wars). But honestly, I logged in yesterday in hopes of finding new Wintersday content, just a quest or two. But no. No, ANet's more interested in selling shinies to the poor saps who will pay for them than in actually giving us something to do in said shinies.
mrvrod
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Originally Posted by Qing Guang
hence why I am not at all upset with Blizzard, who just released two new minipets... as well as a huge new patch AND who are still working on revamping the entire planet for Cataclysm. Clearly it can be done.
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It's a matter of choice, no one answer is right or wrong. It's what the individual is looking for in a game.
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by Gli
You cannot usefully buy the costumes unless you have already bought a former product.
Since you can only spend money once, the costumes are after different money. |
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| The majority of people here having already registered at least one campaign, how did you think that happened? Could they, perhaps, have already spent money on those? |
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| Guild Wars campaigns have the entirety of the game playing population as their intended target, costumes only have the subset of gamers that have been succesfully targeted with a campaign as their target. Costumes depend on campaigns. |
mrvrod
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Prove me wrong then. Uninstall Guild Wars, and then only go play the Costume Pack.
Let me know how that works for you. If it does, then I'll eat my hat. |
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
The entire Gaia Online and Solia community has already done so. Unlike you, I am able to understand how others value content, even if I don't agree with them.
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The entire Gia Online and Solia community can play the microtransaction content with the game client uninstalled? I'm very impressed with those games!
Believe me I understand this conversation thread better than you think. I have a 19 year old son who also loves to argue the minutiae until the core discussion gets lost in the details. It doesn't make your points incorrect, it makes them extraneous.
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by mrvrod
The entire Gia Online and Solia community can play the microtransaction content with the game client uninstalled? I'm very impressed with those games!
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| Believe me I understand this conversation thread better than you think. I have a 19 year old son who also loves to argue the minutiae until the core discussion gets lost in the details. It doesn't make your points incorrect, it makes them extraneous. |
mrvrod
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Yes. There's no game client.
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
It takes two to tango.
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Shy Guy
If people want to pay $10, they do.
If not, they don't.
What more is there...? Smart of ANet to make money.
If not, they don't.
What more is there...? Smart of ANet to make money.
chessyang
so like hum.. someone going to make a "poll" about who will/would
a) bought it
b) consider buying it
c) don't' care
so much talk about Anet about the ideal of mico payments. i want want to know how many people bought it or just don't care.
a) bought it
b) consider buying it
c) don't' care
so much talk about Anet about the ideal of mico payments. i want want to know how many people bought it or just don't care.
Gli
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
This makes no difference in the economic sense. It just means the goods are complementary.
And rendering your argument null. They are fundamentally the same for these people! Again, this makes it even more fundamentally the same, if it was possible to begin with. |
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
You've successfully ignored EotN twice, and really is now grasping at straws.
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Different goods being attractive to different people is irrelevant.
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__________________________________________________
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Originally Posted by mrvrod
Believe me I understand this conversation thread better than you think. I have a 19 year old son who also loves to argue the minutiae until the core discussion gets lost in the details. It doesn't make your points incorrect, it makes them extraneous.
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thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by mrvrod
You win that one, I neglected to do my homework. It is funny though that you chose to use avatar based social networking sites for comparison to an online role-playing game. So now we're comparing apples to peanuts. Although the argument could be made that the web browser now becomes the "client". Can you play your purchased content without being logged in?
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Related to your second argument but not critical to the discussion: can you purchase without an account?
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| You are correct. I'm using irrelevant arguments in an attempt to distract you. See I took debate in school too. Although now I believe you call it Forensics. |
mrvrod
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
The key argument is about how stuff like costumes without gameplay can possibly yield utility. Those sites have sufficiently demonstrated how.
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Prove me wrong then. Uninstall Guild Wars, and then only go play the Costume Pack.
Let me know how that works for you. If it does, then I'll eat my hat. |
thedarkmarine
You know those bubble wraps that are so irresistable to pop? Your post is like that.
They're complementary goods. Seriously, you really don't know anything.
Because costume pack is an expansion. Wow.
But it doesn't make a fundamental difference.
Again, two to tango. Then again, what can I expect from a guy who attempts to change the focus of discussion when he can't win, spews crude irrelevant rhetoric, tries to use jargon he doesn't understand and buries head within is own ignorance. Oh well, the internet tough guys would love to have you as a member.
No. The focus is on the fundamental difference, not your meta feely crap. Get your facts straight.
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Originally Posted by Gli
But they aren't mutually complimentary. One can be utilized with the other, the other can't be utilized without the one. It's nonsensical to dismiss prior consumption of a former good just because it destroys your argument.
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| EotN is neither a campaign, nor is it the costume pack. It's an expansion. Why would I not ignore it when the topic is campaigns versus costume pack? |
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| It isn't irrelevant when there's a clear dependancy. |
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| Well yes, that's been my argument for my first 5 or 6 responses, but it's hard to break through the shell of self-congratulatory smugness. Oh well, what did I expect of a guy who butted into a conversation that was about people's feelings about the costume offer with nothing but an unmotivated dismissal and a magnificently pointless "Utility is utility". Yeah, Einstein, stuff is just stuff. What a memorable contribution to the wonderful world of internet fora. I'll be sure to inform the Nobel prize commity. |
No. The focus is on the fundamental difference, not your meta feely crap. Get your facts straight.
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by mrvrod
Actually I believe Kaleban's key argument, which I reiterated, was that this content cannot be enjoyed without being logged in to the "client".
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
If they just put out a Costume pack for $9.99 that was not connected to the game for $9.99, it might as well not exist, because you can't play costumes. They're a cosmetic enhancement, not gameplay addition
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Sure they can. There are avatar sites that offer nothing but cosmetic enhancements. For example, Gaia Online, Solia,...,etc, sell special avatar items for real money, and the avatars are just displayed on forums, and that's it. People are able to play by dressing up and showing off. The sites are making a killing off of this business model.
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Deakon
I'd pay $30 for dungeons in Proph, Factions and NF. How hard would it be to add new content that way? But I'm not paying for a costume. They do look cool though.
Qing Guang
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Originally Posted by mrvrod
Of course it can be done. it can be done with a monthly pay mmo because all that extra revenue means a larger staff and more capital for content. if you are looking for that, by all means move to a subscription based mmo and get a lot more content. I, for one, will stick with a one-time purchase, a decent amount of content, and non game changing microtransactions which are totally optional.
It's a matter of choice, no one answer is right or wrong. It's what the individual is looking for in a game. |
Yes, I know that more money translates into better quality service, as I've observed with Blizz (did you know they actually have real customer service and even restore hacked accounts? Concept!), and ANet, while still backed up by a fairly large company and funded by the sales of millions of copies of the game, just isn't on that scale. Blizz can afford to work on three things at once. I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for ANet to focus on only what they can handle, and asking them not to sacrifice actually giving us things to do in favor of things that will interest us for about 5 minutes. I'm not asking them to make a game, a major content update, and shinies all at once; I'm asking them to make a small content update (perhaps charge for it! I'd be willing to buy BMP sorts of things if they were available, because those are genuine content) rather than spend their time on overpriced baubles.
And yes, you're right, it is a question of taste. But I know that I, and I suspect that many others, have found that what ANet is now providing in their game is no longer what they were looking for in a game when they first arrived.
w00t!
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Originally Posted by Qing Guang
But see, there was a day, once, when ANet WAS producing new content AND creating new campaigns (and thereby earning money) at the same time.
(snip) And yes, you're right, it is a question of taste. But I know that I, and I suspect that many others, have found that what ANet is now providing in their game is no longer what they were looking for in a game when they first arrived. |
Like it or not, Anet stated over a year ago that they were focusing most of their resources on Guild Wars 2. While I'd love a new campaign, I'm happy to at least get table scraps every now and again.
I'm just hoping to be blown away when GW2 does finally come out.