Primary Ritualist, why?

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

23 Dec 2009 at 10:54 - 1

Other than looks/armor, why do people use primary ritualists nowdays?

I'm asking because as a mesmer primary, I also understand there's very little reason to have mesmer primary, because most of the mesmer skills received (multiple) nerfs since good old days (and even then mesmer wasn't that good in PvE).

I liked good old Ritual Lord before nerf, but now, why? Spirit spam is very powerful, but I looked at my mesmer and realized I can just as well put 12 in Communing and 12 in Channeling, and I get exactly what Ritualist primary has (sure, I don't have minor runes but difference is negligible). Now I have a nice powerful SoS build without the need to bother creating Rt primary.

Regarding profession-based PvE skills (sunspear / allegiance), I also find it sad that some of these skills are tied to primary attribute (Leadership, Critical Agility..), while some are as effective even if you're not primary in that class. Which basically tells people it's good to have some class as main, but others are pointless.

Windf0rce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

23 Dec 2009 at 11:10 - 2

I recently created a Ritualist for spirit spamming, even though my Monk can also be decent at it.

Spawning Power seems to make the spirits less squishy (combined with Armor of Unfeeling the effect seems even stronger), even though I don't have a lot of points in it due to a huge attribute spread.

If I remember correctly, I run (numbers can be wrong):

Ritualist:
10+1+1 Channeling, 9+1 Communing, 9+1 Restoration, 8+1 Spawning.
Monk:
11 Channeling, 11 Communing, 9 Restoration.

Standard SoS build: SoS, Pain, Bloodsong, Vamp, Shadowsong, Spiritleech, AoU, Summon Spirits.

The Rt's spirits seem to be definitely more resilient and I run the exactly same bar on both characters; while the Monk can get the job done, the Rt seems better to solo tougher stuff (UW). Besides, people don't really take me seriously if I tell them I'll spirit spam as Mo/Rt (even though it is decent), so having a Rt primary is good.

Kenzo Skunk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

23 Dec 2009 at 11:54 - 3

Painful bond instead of Spiritleech aura? Have you tried that Windy? Seems like mobs die a lot quicker.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

23 Dec 2009 at 11:56 - 4

Why ritualist for spirit spamming?
Because everything else is worse.

Windf0rce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

23 Dec 2009 at 12:04 - 5

Good point Kenzo, yes sometimes I run it and things die much faster indeed. The attribute spread gets a bit better too because I can move points out of Resto.

The Spiritleech build is the one I use for UW solo runs - it is better than Painful Bond because Smite Crawlers have Smite Hex and it also helps against their Reversal of Fortune spam (less dmg = less heals). If I feel like running Chaos Planes, the Spectres also have Hex Breaker. Overall Spiritleech lets Spirits self heal and survive a little bit longer so it's usually my choice for UW.

But yes for Chamber-only runs I'd use Painful Bond, and possibly most other PvE areas too. Lots more of damage. I'm kind of a noob to Rits though, take my experience with them with a grain of salt. :P

dsielschott

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2007

KURZ

W/Mo

23 Dec 2009 at 13:08 - 6

well i run a spirit spam build on my ranger for all my vanquishes..... set up spirits take aggro pull to spirits....things die REALLy fast and easy, with the expertise with ranger you can put up spirits and spam other skills of your liking...... i admit i do have ursan on my bar for the double pulls and bosses but other than that i normally just sit and watch/call next target..... it works great..., i know a rit could do it a little better but not essential, so that is a good question as to why rit primary....i guess u answered your own question.....COOL ARMOR

EwolxNavi

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2009

Dormant Vengeance

E/Me

23 Dec 2009 at 15:11 - 7

There may be better classes for this but...

For me, my Rit primary is all about versatility. Most folks want Spirit Spam, and I can do that. But I can also spike, minion master and heal (and I can heal better than some monks I've seen). I do of course suffer from the problem that my ranger guildmate does. Versatile classes can't do things quite as well as the dedicated classes can, we're jacks-of-all-trades but masters of none. Still, I like being able to switch quickly to fill the various niches that a group requires when that particular class is in short supply.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

23 Dec 2009 at 15:23 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier View Post

Why ritualist for spirit spamming?
Because everything else is worse.

Yes Upier, but that's exactly my point. Even the best Rt build is easily done by someone else in much the same way.

Quote: Originally Posted by Windf0rce The Rt's spirits seem to be definitely more resilient Which isn't important because good spirit spammer will properly place his spirits so they won't even come under (heavy) attack. And you can both move them fast, often, and heal for a lot, with that Kurzick skill.

So, yes, having high hp spirits is good to have, if the bonus is free.. but it's not worth a single point in Spawning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewolxnavi

But I can also spike, minion master and heal (and I can heal better than some monks I've seen). How do you spike as Rt? That's the thing, in PvE HM which is all people play these days, channeling.. is just not going to do much compared to spirit spam for instance.

I don't know how good Rt is these days as minion masters, so won't comment on that. But as for heal.. yea, I played with Restoration a lot, but to be honest, I don't think that Restoration Rt comes even close to E/Mo heal/prot spammer. So, what I'm trying to say is, that, for instance, an Elementalist will spike better than Rt, will have more utility, will be able to use spirit spam builds as effective as those of Rt, and Ele will also heal for much more. Ok, Rt will be better at minion mastering.. but if you want minion mastering necro will do it better. Moreover, necro will heal better with uber soul reaping, necro will be just as good spirit spammer, and necro will spike much better than Rt (Discord..).

Quote:

For me, my Rit primary is all about versatility. The thing is, with current skill balance, both Elementalist and Necromancer as not only more powerful than Rt, but also more versatile.

Gift3d

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Las Vegas

Enraged Whiny Carebears [oR]

W/E

23 Dec 2009 at 15:55 - 9

not for pve.

i'd expand a lot more on that but i mean look at this thread, it'd concern nobody so i'll leave it at that.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

23 Dec 2009 at 15:55 - 10

EwolxNavi

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2009

Dormant Vengeance

E/Me

23 Dec 2009 at 16:08 - 11

All true.

However I play with a lot of PUG's, and the problem is finding people who actually do all those things. Dedicated classes, such as Necro's and Ele's, usually stick to what they're dedicated to do. Most Ele's that I've run into stick to nuking or spiking, because that's what people expect from them. Similarly Necro's are usually MMing or running one of those tri-nec-wiki-builds. And they do that because that's what people expect them to do. And as a Rit I run into that myself. Most folks want a Ritualist Spirit Spammer because that's what they're used to seeing.

The other thing is that (with the exception of minions), Rit versatility is built into their primary class. An ele cannot heal/prot and spirit spam all within the same class. He has to choose either one or the other, and run to a prof changer if he wants to switch. Necro's would also have to switch between Mo and Rit secondaries to exercise their versatility. Rit's can do both on the fly without having to rededicate the character to do something different, which makes them truly versatile.

As I said, other classes can do these jobs better, hence "jack of all trades, master of none". But I don't have to completely rebuild the character everytime I want it to fill a new role (like I had to when I switched my E/Me to E/Mo for awhile).

Edit: I should add that the spiking bit is something I've only tried recently in NM, when I'm running with my newer guildmates who are on their first PvE runthrough's. I imagine Rit spiking would be quite useless in HM.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

23 Dec 2009 at 16:29 - 12

16 channeling is now worth it for spirits, I'm not sure what these guys are going on about.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

23 Dec 2009 at 16:35 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Yes Upier, but that's exactly my point. Even the best Rt build is easily done by someone else in much the same way. That's the thing - it's not the same.
Spirit spam on a non-rit is ALWAYS weaker than on a ritualist. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by running it on a non-primary rit.

Konker2020

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2009

Exiled Forcez [Ex]

23 Dec 2009 at 16:50 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi View Post

EwolxNavi

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2009

Dormant Vengeance

E/Me

23 Dec 2009 at 17:05 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

Off topic, but for the record you don't have to go to a profession changer every time you want to switch your secondary, you can just open your skills menu and do it from there provided that you have already paid to switch to each one at least once. I was not aware of that. Thanks. ^^

Arrogant Bastard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2009

Your mom's house

23 Dec 2009 at 17:24 - 16

16 channeling gives you:

+26 armor ignoring damage per hit (SoS + Bloodsong combined)
+2 damage per hit on painful bond
+195 hp on each spirit with 13 spawning power (+60 with 0 Spawning; +154 with 9 Spawning)
+12 damage and +1 attack on splinter weapon (+7 duration with 9 Spawning; +10 duration with 13 Spawning; Same for GDW)
+28 damage Ancestor's Rage

The damage and durability of spirits on a Rit primary has a significant advantage over other classes. Splinter/GDW and Ancestor's Rage are bonuses. (The damage advantage a Rit primary has is all armor ignoring except for Ancestor's Rage which is only useful in certain teams).

dr love

...is in denial

Join Date: Sep 2006

Hyperion

starcraft 2

P/Me

23 Dec 2009 at 17:27 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Other than looks/armor, why do people use primary ritualists nowdays? uw, fow, VSF, 330 farming, SoS farming and maybe people play this game for fun? just maybe?

Konker2020

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2009

Exiled Forcez [Ex]

23 Dec 2009 at 18:05 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

I was not aware of that. Thanks. ^^ Not a problem, glad I could help.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

23 Dec 2009 at 18:23 - 19

The damage, hp, and especially armor bonuses on spirits from headpiece + runes are significant. The hp bonus from SP, even at mid-low spec, is also significant.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

23 Dec 2009 at 18:43 - 20

14 points splinter ....

Effect is nearly doubled compared to 12 point one

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

23 Dec 2009 at 19:05 - 21

because of uber spawning power for spirits

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

23 Dec 2009 at 19:29 - 22

Farming or support.

Spirit spam too, I guess, but most caster classes can do it almost as well.

RedDog91

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2007

Farming for Nick gifts

23 Dec 2009 at 19:30 - 23

spirit spam is wat people are used to seeing now
if you are a rit that doesn't have SoS and summon spirits, you are likely to get kicked from the team

in my opinion, ritualists are also very, very good healers.
a properly put together restoration build can out-heal and out-e-manage a monk.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

23 Dec 2009 at 20:19 - 24

Ok, I see the use of spawning power when it comes to weapon spells and other dmg spells, i.e. ancestors, but as so pure spirit spamming, I'd rather have energy management for the ability to spam skills. SoS, Bloodsong, Pain, Vampirism, Shadowsong(Disenchant or Anguish), Painful Bond, Simmon Spirits, take a lot of energy to spam. Painful bond at 15energy alone is worth e managment, seeing you want it on every foe as a spirit spammer.

RedDog91

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2007

Farming for Nick gifts

23 Dec 2009 at 20:39 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Painful bond at 15energy alone is worth e managment, seeing you want it on every foe as a spirit spammer. read skill description again
it applies to target and nearby foes
cast on clustered groups and u only have to cast once

Teknikaali

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

Rt/

23 Dec 2009 at 23:13 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr love

uw, fow, VSF, 330 farming, SoS farming and maybe people play this game for fun? just maybe? Agreed. I'd add 600hp VwK @ Mount Qinkai Speed Clear there

does the job better than a monk

Oh, and 600/smite Oola's Lab for granites.. used to run CoF also but meh.. cof is getting old :P

And overall generic SoS + EoE stuff.. Rragar's speed clears etc..
Rits are wanted because of that 16(or 17) in channeling makes Splinter Weapon in PvE spiking imba.

Shut A You Face

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Milwaukee

ODWC

Rt/Me

23 Dec 2009 at 23:13 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

thustlewhumber

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2009

KISS

Rt/P

24 Dec 2009 at 00:07 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

Which isn't important because good spirit spammer will properly place his spirits so they won't even come under (heavy) attack. And you can both move them fast, often, and heal for a lot, with that Kurzick skill.

So, yes, having high hp spirits is good to have, if the bonus is free.. but it's not worth a single point in Spawning.

Max channel and spawning + a 20sec armor of unfeeling.... the proper place for your spirits will be right next to the mobs because your spirits can't die. The generic build on pvx is a horrible horrible build that only noobs use to stand in the back and be "support".

Quote:

The thing is, with current skill balance, both Elementalist and Necromancer as not only more powerful than Rt, but also more versatile. Thats only if you put the rit inside a little box of "spirit spammer". My rit can vanquish solo faster, pvp spike faster, heal better, and out damage anything I've ever seen from pretty much any other profession in the game.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

24 Dec 2009 at 00:16 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Farming or support.

Spirit spam too, I guess, but most caster classes can do it almost as well. Almost as well. But Ritualists handle their energy fine with either Spirit Siphon or, if they can manage not to spam their spirits on recharge, there is no need for an e-management skill.

Spirits are often used for tanks and distractions. You want them to last a good amount of time before being smothered with damage. A profession other than Rt/ should not be running this in a regular PvE team. It annoys me when a ranger or some random profession pings it in a pug.

Of course, if you lack a ritualist in general PvE and you NEED spirits; by all means take one. Though you can generally run something better as your primary. For example a necromancer spamming SY! (Yes, it does work, and well.)

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

24 Dec 2009 at 00:57 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Spirits are often used for tanks and distractions. Their main purpose, however, is dealing damage.

Arrogant Bastard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2009

Your mom's house

24 Dec 2009 at 01:08 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by thustlewhumber View Post

Thats only if you put the rit inside a little box of "spirit spammer". My rit can vanquish solo faster, pvp spike faster, heal better, and out damage anything I've ever seen from pretty much any other profession in the game.