Discuss general pve hero usage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious that was what i was thinking too .

anyway,

I realise how much I use MoP (shadow/armour ignoring damage) and how often i see 42 damage . However, what i didn't realise is that you don't find a lot of skills which reduces the damage of MoP even though there are a lot of skills which are capable of reducing armour ignoring damage .

Because of the fact that OoV deals extra life steal in small packs, shielding hands / turtle shell can reduce it to 0 . Neither shielding hands nor Stoneflesh Aura will affect Life-Draining because it is, as you say, no damage type. It takes exactly the amount of life it says on the tin.

Quote: So i can come to the conclusion that life steal in large packets > armour ignoring damage in large packets > life steal in small packets > armour ignoring damage in small packets > rest .

Holy / Shadow damage / spirit attacks = Armour ignoring .

Life steal = life steal . Life steal has no damage type . Firstly, Holy and Shadow damage is not armour ignoring. And if you look in the description of Barbs and Mark of Pain, where does it say "Deals x Shadow Damage"?

Life-stealing, is not affected by any prots, and is in a seperate packet. I think you have made some bad observations.Because when, for example, a Stoneflesh Mandragor uses Stoneflesh Aura, Barbs will do 0 damage; even with BuH. However if you have OoV active, it will carry on stealing as much as it always did.

Life-steal>Armour Ignoring>Holy/Shadow>a blunt spoon>Elemental. lololol

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious Whats OuU and OuD ? xD OoU ?
ah crap, you got me :P You know when you type something when ur tired and it doesnt look right? but ur brain doesnt know why? thats what that is :P
Quote:

Originally Posted by upier Just bitching about this - they do NOT use AotL well. AotL needs to be spammed on recharge, since that allows you to obtain minions that are 2 levels higher. (You use it once, that raises your Death by one - you use it a second time before it runs out and the game raises your already raised Death by one, raising the level of minions by one once again and increasing the length by a few secs once again.) Heroes fail at that - which means you end up with +1 level minions instead of +2 levels. uh huh...you got me on that too :P but it still stands they get more out of it than OoU, even if just for the easier wall raising...well thats in my exp :P Tho i still prefer emp removal :P

Quote: Originally Posted by maxxfury

uh huh...you got me on that too :P but it still stands they get more out of it than OoU, even if just for the easier wall raising...well thats in my exp :P
Tho i still prefer emp removal :P
Btw - I was paying attention to my morons today and it seems that Masochism is the same kind of problematic crap. They'll let it run out before they recast it.

Quote: Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Firstly, Holy and Shadow damage is not armour ignoring. And if you look in the description of Barbs and Mark of Pain, where does it say "Deals x Shadow Damage"? Shadow damage is armour ignoring. Spiteful Spirit and Mark of Pain (along with a load of other skills) deal Shadow damage but only state so in the Full description (not the concise description).
Holy damage from spells and the like is armour ignoring, but when dealt by attacks via Judge's Insight or AoHM or wands, it isn't.

Skills cause shadow damage, that IS armour ignoring.

Wands/staves cause dark/holy*/chaos, and ARE effected by armour, but there are no +armour vs dark/holy/chaos mods/resistances unlike all other types, eg fire or blunt, making them a (lol) slightly better choice for your wand/stave.


*undeads take double damage and some skills are holy damage and coincdentally are also armour ignoring.

Sidenote: mes skills are often wrongly refered to as chaos damage, when infact they are just non-specified armour ignoring damage.

Quote: Neither shielding hands nor Stoneflesh Aura will affect Life-Draining because it is, as you say, no damage type. It takes exactly the amount of life it says on the tin. incorrect information .

Quote: Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, damage and life steal received by target ally is reduced by 3...15...18. When Shielding Hands ends, that ally is healed for 5...41...50 Health.
Concise description
Enchantment Spell. (8 seconds.) Reduces incoming damage and life steal by 3...15...18. End effect: heals for 5...41...50 Quote: Firstly, Holy and Shadow damage is not armour ignoring. And if you look in the description of Barbs and Mark of Pain, where does it say "Deals x Shadow Damage"?

Life-stealing, is not affected by any prots, and is in a seperate packet. I think you have made some bad observations.Because when, for example, a Stoneflesh Mandragor uses Stoneflesh Aura, Barbs will do 0 damage; even with BuH. However if you have OoV active, it will carry on stealing as much as it always did.

Life-steal>Armour Ignoring>Holy/Shadow>a blunt spoon>Elemental. lololol Wrong again . Quote: Mark of Pain deals 10...34...40 shadow damage to adjacent foes. Quote: Unlike dark damage, shadow damage ignores armor and character level.

note: life draining (vamp weapons) =/= life stealing(nec skills). it was changed with the prot vs blood magic update were rof/ls/sh not work vs blood magic.

Quote: Neither shielding hands nor Stoneflesh Aura will affect Life-Draining because it is, as you say, no damage type. It takes exactly the amount of life it says on the tin. Is correct infomation. Vamp weapons aka life draining always do their stated numbers. *its poss one or two monster skills negate this..but nothing in genpop

yes I know life drain is not life steal.

He probably used the wrong word . Why life draining all of a sudden when we were talking about life steal ? Besides, life draining can only be found on vamp weapons yeah? We weren't talking about weapons but the spell, OoV which is life steal .

Edit: if you read his post properly, he says "as you say, is no damage type"

but what I said was life steal and not life drain . Seems like he doesn't know their difference ? And higherminion, please don't be offended, I'm just trying to correct you

sounds like a possible case of terminology clash?

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious

yes I know life drain is not life steal.

He probably used the wrong word . Why life draining all of a sudden when we were talking about life steal ? Besides, life draining can only be found on vamp weapons yeah? We weren't talking about weapons but the spell, OoV which is life steal .

Edit: if you read his post properly, he says "as you say, is no damage type"

but what I said was life steal and not life drain . Seems like he doesn't know their difference ? And higherminion, please don't be offended, I'm just trying to correct you Sigh. I forgot to take into account the anti-life-steal skill update, bleh.

Ok, I checked MoP in the Full Description for a change, and yes, I was wrong about shadow damage. Not really willing to say holy damage is armour ignoring, when it doesn't always deal the damage it says on the description. And holy damage from weapons isn't armour ignoring either, so all in all Holy damage= Armour/monster sensitive.

Life-steal= from a spell.
Life-drain=From weapons.

That update pretty much pissed on me, I'm annoyed.

OoV is still good as a lifestealing heal; as you won't find these prots too often in most areas.

How do you guys find the general OoV setup that I racked my brains over for probably 20 hrs ?

Criticisms please !

The reason why I don't run nightmare weapon or warmongers is that Livia seldom casts it . And the most important skill in channelling attribute is splinter which is on the MB .

In low corpse areas where I can't use a MB , I would take a WE scythe warrior / barrage ranger + pet and splinter .

Precisely because you don't find many of these prots , despite it being small life steal packets, it is still good like you said . Are you sure holy damage eg Ray of judgement doesn't deal the amount that is stated on it's description ? I'm in school ATM . Can't check . I know holy based buffs eg AoHM and judges insight don't deal armour ignoring damage because it's percentile based . Holy spells are armour ignoring if I can still remember . That's why SoJ always deals the same amount of damage against foes that don't use skills that can reduce armor ignoring damage .

[QUOTE=Lusciious;5045370]How do you guys find the general OoV setup that I racked my brains over for probably 20 hrs ? [

Criticisms please !/QUOTE]

I don't know about your exact set up but I've been using mine for a long time and its always served me well.

The last 3 or 4 pages of this thread was you and me and everyone arguing about OoV. You can recap on it.

Infuse Condition and FF is a waste. Dwayna's sorrow is also unneeded and IMO, pretty worthless compared to other stuff u can take.

Anyway in my build I don't run the ER and I just go with SoS rit which I micromanage because xandra couldn't win an IQ match against cheese.

Look A few posts above . How is dwayna sorrow useless . You can create minions so quickly that it abuses the wide party heal of dwayna sorrow . Infuse and ff is a waste ? In other words not worthy that skill slot ? What do you use then ? What's your build and your hero builds ?

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious

Look A few posts above . How is dwayna sorrow useless . You can create minions so quickly that it abuses the wide party heal of dwayna sorrow . Infuse and ff is a waste ? In other words not worthy that skill slot ? What do you use then ? What's your build and your hero builds ? Dwayna's sorrow is useless because you don't need that extra life buff because if your minions are doing wut theyre supposed to, the enemy should be killing them first instead of your team so minion wall should be gone before you sustain any significant damage. Though it seems really good, it's really a win-more skill. I wouldn't say its bad, but I don't think its great.

FF is a waste because what condition is possibly going to affect you to a point where it matters? The only time I can see FF being helpful is when there is massive all around blind and the occasional dw or daze. Taking up a slot, or with infuse, two slots for this is just BS. I'm sure you can find better things for your MM.

What I run depends on what I am doing. But the overall idea is what I posted in another thread somewhere or the PvX wiki build I posted.

Imbagon
N/Rt OoV Healer
SoS secondary healer Rit/ Stun Strike Para support
AotL N/Me Rupter/AotL N/Mo Protter

Quote: Dwayna's sorrow is useless because you don't need that extra life buff because if your minions are doing wut theyre supposed to, the enemy should be killing them first instead of your team so minion wall should be gone before you sustain any significant damage. Though it seems really good, it's really a win-more skill. I wouldn't say its bad, but I don't think its great.

FF is a waste because what condition is possibly going to affect you to a point where it matters? The only time I can see FF being helpful is when there is massive all around blind and the occasional dw or daze. Taking up a slot, or with infuse, two slots for this is just BS. I'm sure you can find better things for your MM. A MB does what it is supposed to do, sacrifice minions . Dwayna's Sorrow takes advantage of that . I call this good synergy . In long matches or if there happen to be massive AoE, minions die before they are near the opponent . At least the heals would help heal the party, thus negating some damage from AoE spells . and because you can create minions quickly, it abuses it even further .

Yeah . Conditions don't really matter much unless they're blinds or daze . Well i guess it's a waste then . imma swap this out for something . don't forget that by transferring conditions to your minions, you're helping them to die as well . and no/little condition is always good .

Rupts are useless in HM . Heroes don't know which skills are elite which skills aren't . they interrupt whenever they can . IMO, this is not worth the attribute spread .

Your build focuses too much on defence . Imbagon ? 2 semi healers ? a protter ? There is not much damage . Why not get a P/N MoP Support ?

if you have an imbagon, you don't need 2 healers to keep your party up . infact, an ER infuser and a motigon (it's on pvx . a support paragon ) would be good enough .

I have MoP, Splinter, OoV . That's alot of physical support .

I have 2 aegis, 2 prot spirit and spammable prots e.g. rof and shield guardian to push red bars up and massive aoe heals from dwayna's sorrow and shield guardian and OoV .

I also have a lot of minions to proc MoP and barbs . And i have no problems with conditions and my res heals the whole party .

I like it and i don't have to micro much .

your build has unrivalled defences, armour ignoring damage if you micro properly, physical support e.g. OoV and splinter weapon, heals to push red bars up, rupts ? prots ? and daze support ? Alot of minions but for what ? just for sacrifice ?

My prots are comparable to your unrivalled defences and the lack of prots unless you're running N/Mo which doesn't really add much since it's only aegis and prot spirit and because i've got 2 aegis, 2 prot spirit, spirit bond, rof, shield guardian. My physical support is better . I have barbs and MoP . you don't . you can push red bars up, so can i . i can even negate damage at the same time . you might have more wide party heal . i have shield guardian, dwayna's sorrow, OoV . you have life, pwk or support from paragon and oov . you have rupts i don't but what's the point of rupting when you can kill ? if he doesn't die fast, chances of you dying is increased . i'm somewhat immune to conditions . are you ?

I guess if yours works then it's good . I like mine the way it is Oh and, my MoP is spammable .

I like making comparisons to see how i can improve .

I will take into consideration the fact that FF and Infuse is a waste of 2 skills . I'll see if there are any more optionals worth using over them .

i won't use rupts cause they're both good and bad on heroes in a way that they don't interrupt good skills . they interrupt everything .

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious

OoV Protter - OoV, Mark of Fury, Strip Enchantment, Protective Spirit, Aegis, Dwayna's Sorrow, SoLS, a resurrect spell .

Blood Magic 12+1+3
Soul Reaping 8+1
Healing Prayers 5
Protection Prayers 9

I had 5 optionals for OoV. I wanted foul feast but i didn't have infuse condition . then i realised that i could swap some skills around . so i went to swap the prot spirit, aegis, dwayna's sorrow for infuse condition and foul feast and splinter weapon . splinter weapon is all i need from channelling so it would be a waste if i had points in channelling attribute for my OoV nec .

So 3 optionals would have gone to prot spells for my OoV since i've swapped them around . and i added SoLS for energy management and a resurrect spell .

Perfecto . Now you have what you need from channelling (Splinter weapon), you still have 2 aegis, 2 prot spirit, dwayna's sorrow and this time, you have a res spell and of course, longer prot spirit and aegis since my OoV is using 20% enchant weapon .

Add 1 healer and 3 physicals and you're ready to win .
Seeing as you will most likely be running Melee with OoV; you can drop the prots/heals and bring 10 smiting for Strength of Honour, Smite Hex/Condition perhaps, but pretty much the rest is optimal. SoH is like a Hero variant for GDW, without the knockdown.

Strength of honor ? who do i cast it on though ? spear wielding casters like me ? or real physicals e.g. warriors / rangers o.o do i maintain more than 1 ?

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious

Strength of honor ? who do i cast it on though ? spear wielding casters like me ? or real physicals e.g. warriors / rangers o.o do i maintain more than 1 ? What?
You put SoH on whoever has a melee weapon in their hand - fairly obvious really. It only works for melee attacks and a hero necro can handle two or one pip energy regeneration unless they have a lot of expensive skills.

casters with spears attack less frequently than normal physicals .

i don't think that extra 17 - 18 damage is worth aegis and prot spirit .

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious

casters with spears attack less frequently than normal physicals .

i don't think that extra 17 - 18 damage is worth aegis and prot spirit . It's not an extra 17-18 damage; it's an extra 17-18 damage PER melee character you give it to.