Better PUGing by improving your build in 7 steps

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

(Not sure if this fits here or on Riverside or wherever.)

I've played this game since early 2006, and have been setting up PUGs since a month or so after I started. I prefer setting up groups of my own since then you know what you'll get (as opposed to joining a group where the leader might or might not be competent). For quite a long while PUGs were just about inviting/accepting until you had a decently balanced team (1-3 frontliner, 1-2 monks depending on area, rest damage casters) and press enter mission. And then came hard mode, and suddenly it started to actually matter what skills people bring.

Ok, stop that. No, I'm not a build elitist, I'm less of that than many other people here, I'd think. I don't care if your build is on PvX or not, I don't care if your attributes are perfectly aligned on optimal breakpoints and all that. I prefer to have an efficient build myself, but as for my teammates, it's better if they bring stuff that they feel comfortable with. After all, the point of a game is to have fun.

But enough is enough. This game has existed for how long - five years, soon? And people still bring horrible builds in hard mode. Time to end this. So if you PUG, please read this, and take note. Yes, I'm selfish. I'm trying to help myself getting better teams. But let me tell you this: if you, yes you who are reading this, is on that better team, you will have a greater chance of winning and having fun.

Of course, not all of these steps need apply. But the first and the last ones always do.

Step 1: Play for the team, and the team will play for you
Guild Wars is about teamwork. In a perfect team, you are not playing the 8 skills on your bar - the entire team is playing the 64 skills on the sum total of all teammates' bars, as one entity. Of course no team is perfect, but you can and should still adapt your build to the team. If you have an excessive amount of self-heals, maybe substitute those for some damage skills and let the monks do the healing. If you choose between Vampiric Gaze and Barbs, maybe take Barbs even though you personally can't trigger the effect.

Step 2: Bring rez
You have 8 slots on your bar. Fill them up. Now remove one skill. Go ahead. Yes, that one, the one that adds like 0.5 to your DPS. You don't need it. What you need to put in there is some skill to revive your fallen teammates. No, the plan isn't that people should die. But you have 7 skills for when everything goes as planned.
And one skill for when nothing does.

Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one.

Step 4: Put on an attunement if you are ele
I see this on so many elementalists and I don't know why. Packing an attunement will give you back loads of energy for each spell you cast, preventing you from running low so fast. Taking Elemental Attunement means you can spam energy-heavy spells without break pretty much endlessly, though it also means giving up your elite, so it's not recommended. The normal attunement for your chosen element will ensure that you won't run dry in the middle of a protracted battle, or as a result of multiple encounters in quick succession.

Step 5: Bring a warrior build if you are a warrior
So a warrior enters the team, and pings something like 2 elementalist spells, Defy Pain, one adrenaline attack, Power Attack, Ebon Standard of Honor, and so on. What. On. This. Holy. Earth.
Why even play warrior if you are going to bring something like that? This is the only time I'm a build elitist, because warriors more than any other profession in GW can be completely and utterly useless if they are bad and truly excellent if they are good.
Also, this problem doesn't really seem to exist for other professions, not to this degree.
I'm not asking that you should always use the latest super template posted here on Guru, or elsewhere. It's even better in fact if you understand the skills well enough to build your own. But please if you are going to play warrior in hard mode take a moment to learn the adrenaline system, and take another moment to appreciate how warrior damage works.

Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? Can't you see all those PvX copycats hanging around the outpost spamming "SoS lfp"? If we wanted a spirit spammer, we'd take one of them (which we probably already did), not you, since they can do a much better job of it than you can. Fear not, though; all is not lost, since you can do a much better job doing what your profession is made for, nuking, shooting arrows, doing awesome melee damage or just standing around making purple sparks in the air, respectively.

Step 7: Don't be a retard
If asked to ping your build, ping it without hesitation: no one wants to steal it, and few wants to insult you for it. They might want to suggest improvements to it, even if you have read this post and done everything that I said here. If they do suggest improvements, consider their words; they are usually based on actual playing experience.

These steps are only the start, the rest is up to you, and to your team. Sure, you only just met these people, and you'll only play with them for an hour and then never see them again. Still, it's a multiplayer game, and playing for the team means playing for yourself: if they win, you win.

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

tl;dr: Use common sense when developing your build.

Crassus Praetor

Crassus Praetor

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

England

Jade Reapers [JD]

W/

Yes it is common sense (not intended as criticism), but at least
read something before commenting.

As we know, common sense isn't that common.

Wakka

Wakka

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Northern Ireland

R/

Got to hate people that think your going to steal thier build lol

Good post though, although 90% of the offenders wouldnt have the sense to come here looking advice. But even if we effect the other 10% it will be a victory.

Dzjudz

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

Step 3: if you are a Monk, take Unyielding Aura. If you are running Healer's Boon, take a Healing Prayers res. Let other players take rebirth or res signet or whatever.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc
Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? Can't you see all those PvX copycats hanging around the outpost spamming "SoS lfp"? If we wanted a spirit spammer, we'd take one of them (which we probably already did), not you, since they can do a much better job of it than you can. No, they can't, sorry. My mesmer will be pretty much as good spirit spammer as a Ritualist primary, and if I'm better than him in placing spirits and having proper skillbar - I'll end up being even better to PuG than Ritualist who doesn't know how to play properly. If players are equally skilled, Ritualist primary spirit spammer is insignificantly better than non-Ritualist primary. In practice, difference is so small that it doesn't matter. That's why so many people play x/Rt, that, and the fact that spirits are so blatantly overpowered that it's not even funny. Saying how Rt primary is "much better" in spirit spamming is a joke, what is it better in, having 1 point in Channeling and Communing more? Oh yea, you do 200 dmg per second, and this way you do 210. Big deal.

Elementalists and Mesmers (as well as others sometimes) use spirit spam in HM because that's the best thing they can do if they want to do damage without exploiting some PvE skills. If anyone has problem with x/Rt's, then complain to ANet. And if you have a problem with this, then tell me what Elementalist build will do more damage in HM than E/Rt spirit spammer? That's right, none.



Basically, if E/Mo came to your group and said he's protection/healing, you'd probably also tell him not to be silly and to take ele skills since he's elementalist. Yea, the only problem is that with current skill (im)balance, E/Mo will do better than monk in most cases.


ps: Oh, and I also use rez on my monk most of the time. That's because when PuGing you can't rely on others bringing rez. It wouldn't be PuG if you could :>

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

The problem with pugs is anonimity. It's not even player skill, or their attitude. It's anonimity. Anonimity and impersonality that causes major problems. Can you imagine some PuGs being near you IRL, at the same table in a bar or somewhere, and typing all the crap they type sometimes? Of course not, because they would risk someone hitting them. Can you imagine your guildie pulling out some 'stunts' and ruining mission on purpose? Of course not, because he wouldn't be guildie for much longer. Can you imagine someone from your friends list doing that? Highly unlikely, because people know each other better.

So you see, it's all about anonimity. Root problem. People do something because they can and because there is no likely retribution. And this will never be solved which is why PuGs will always be bad. It's just the way things are. Sure, some pugs are good, no one questions that, but it's a lottery which IMO is overall not worthy. I only pug sometimes when I can reach guildies/alliance people, and am too bored to do it with heroes.

That's why I say: get in a guild which is in a nice alliance. This is real solution.


Why is skill not a pug problem? Because guild might have people who are not skilled either, but you will usually know who they are, and also guildies are more likely to listen to positive feedback. Using the best build is not necessary in 99,9% of PvE, but having well-mannered people to play with is.

martinross

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2008

I liked the post. It pointed out stuff and ways of thinking that I could use, thanks.

As for the 'all PUGs are bad and always will be'-comments, writing and reading something like what the OP did, is a constructive way to actually do something about it.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

We're not saying all pugs are bad, but pugging in general means:

1. It will be slower because of lack of team synergy, and often far below optimal builds.
2. Much higher risk of failing.
3. Risk of bad attitude.
4. Irresponsible people (leaving without reason, starting something when they know they might not be able to finish in time etc)
5. Lack of communication / fun chat. Surprised? Yes, many like pugs because of communication. I don't know what kind of pugs you get, but those I get barely talk at all. And if they do, it's just generic mission related stuff. I'm sorry, but chance to get good conversation with pugs is extremely low, although I understand this depends on personal preference. Something that will bore me to death, someone else might find thrilling. Much higher chance to just talk with guildies and alliance people during HHed mission.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxxfury
So generally HERE this thread is preaching to the choir
That crossed my mind too

Quote:
Ironically, a closed minded statment Perhaps, but an appropriate one. Along the lines that you don't want WMo in your group.. sure it could be close minded behavior, but mayhaps appropriate.

Eragon Zarroc

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

If it were a bit more professional, i would sticky it in PUGs and Grouping. but in it's current state, prolly not

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisworld View Post
I find it quite hard to believe what I said was closeminded.
Saying you wont listen to anything others have to say on the subject of closed mindedness cos your right and nothing else matters? ironic much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the dictionary
Adj. 1. Closed-minded - not ready to receive new ideas But anyway, pug's generally wont change for the most part due to this thread, even tho it makes good points, as most who still pug wither wont read this or are too bad to understand the points made within. Now if something like this was on the official site with a link on the login screen...then maybe....some of it would get across to were its most needed.

ShivaTwoDelta

ShivaTwoDelta

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2009

Europe

E/Me

LOL @ not pinging the build.

Most who don't ping won't talk in team chat either. They can invite you, but after that it ends.
Sometimes though there are those who consider their build a top secret document.
Making it even more funny is when they defend with "don't worry, trust me I know what I'm doing, I'm pro".

I noticed the attunementless eles too, as I am a daylie member in OP's pugteams.
Hello Lydia.

Other hateful things are ursans.
Ursan WAS great, pre nerf and it was fun cleaning up DOA in an hour or so.
It never was fun in normal PVE as it was simply way overpowered.
Today it's nerfed to close range and limited in duration so I consider people running ursan people with a serious lack of inspiration.

A general source of irritation to end my post with would be the rank discrimination.
This goes for both the lightbringer/norn rank nonsense (norn r10 or you can't do DOA!) as well as for Heroes Ascent.
"LF MONK R12 no naps plz". I know rank is nice and fun and blabla, I'm R6 and glad5. Rank doesn't automaticly equal player skill. It is merely an indicator, but certainly no guarantee. I've won in HA with lowranked pugs (some weren't even r3) versus r6 teams and up. It's been a while since I went to HA, but I know why I rather play something else.
Rank discrimination, not giving people a fair chance to prove what they made of, no thanks.

jonnieboi05

jonnieboi05

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mableton, Georgia

Guild Ancestors Reunited [?????????]

Disagree with "don't bring rez if you're a monk".


UA is your friend. If you're HB, Restore Life says hi.

glacialphoenix

glacialphoenix

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2008

Singapore

Royal Order of Flying Lemmings [ROFL]

Mo/

Quote:
Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one. The problem with this one is that so many other people don't do Step 2.

In any case, there's UA.

Dzjudz

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeronwen View Post
Why do you want a monk to take a res? Because instant full hp / full energy res which also boosts heals = good? With HB, restore life is half cast, combine this with a healing prayers weapon set and you're good to go.

Also, consider arcane mimicry and UA synergy.
pvx example

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

What I find most interesting in this thread is that most of you focus on getting "a good pug" in terms of being efficient. Bring res, bring attunement, synergise etc.

I would never pug with a group with flawless builds off of wiki. What a fooken bore. Pugging is all about seeing people run funky stuff, do stupid things, accept escort of souls, restore and wrathful spirits all at once. Rage at each other, type random comments, get awed at each others armor or other trivialities. I pug to see drama, new situations and near wipes happen when you don't expect them and try to adapt, etc.

Once again it's been confirmed. I'm different.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

I'd like to say that I'm not looking for perfect wiki builds. If I wanted that I'd be going heroway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
Saying how Rt primary is "much better" in spirit spamming is a joke, what is it better in, having 1 point in Channeling and Communing more? Oh yea, you do 200 dmg per second, and this way you do 210. Big deal.

Elementalists and Mesmers (as well as others sometimes) use spirit spam in HM because that's the best thing they can do if they want to do damage without exploiting some PvE skills. If anyone has problem with x/Rt's, then complain to ANet. And if you have a problem with this, then tell me what Elementalist build will do more damage in HM than E/Rt spirit spammer? That's right, none.
That's right. And, of course, completely beside the point. That point being SoS rits swarming all over every zmission outpost (which is the only place you'll reliably get PUGs anyway) and that even if they are only slightly better than an E/Rt, why not take the primary rit?
As elementalist or mesmer you could do much else than that. Even in HM, elemental AoE damage is quite welcome sometimes, not to mention that eles have huge defensive capabilities (a warder with Blurred Vision does more for defense than an imbagon does). Those are just examples.
Also I find it ironic that you say "others sometimes" because I mostly see it on assassins and rangers for some reason.

Quote: Originally Posted by Chrisworld View Post Really? Actual playing Experience? I've pinged builds that I have used personally (from experience) that get the job done flawlessly in any area I'm doing.

Yet, when retards see my pinged build and then use their brain to match up skill icons and making assumptions in less then 1.5 seconds rather then looking how the skills fit together and work for the area, I get kicked from the party. Then I proceed to PM the idiot who kicked me and either see that I've been ignored or he continues to call me a n00b. I see. While I'm sure you are one of the rare golden snowflakes that won't melt in the fire, I do understand your problem. Look at it this way: if they are close minded, did you really want to play with them?
In either case, I plan on writing another post about actually setting up leading a party, where I will mention this problem.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Josip View Post So you see, it's all about anonimity. Root problem. People do something because they can and because there is no likely retribution. Anonymity is a great problem as well as a great benefit. People don't do stuff because they can but because they want to. Being able to do what you want is great, as long as you want to do what is right.
See above as I will discuss this as well.

Quote: Originally Posted by maxxfury View Post
So generally HERE this thread is preaching to the choir, the real trick would be to get simple info like this to the general population.. lol yeah. However I believe that more people than you'd think stop by Guru to read stuff quite often even if they don't post, and I hope that some of them picks up on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTwoDelta View Post
Most who don't ping won't talk in team chat either. They can invite you, but after that it ends.
(...)
Hello Lydia. Not talking in team chat usually means that they won't communicate much at all. Such people often don't care about the team, and thus have no place in it. We are all better off if the people we play with are engaged in the game! So always keep an eye open for what's being said in team chat.

Hello Shiva.

Quote: That's a paper example. Post here a full 8-skill build of Elementalist in HM, that in your opinion would be more useful than E/Rt.

Im also not sure about warder doing more for defense than imbagon but I've never played imbagon so maybe someone can comment on that (imbagon dmg also counts of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzjudz View Post
Because instant full hp / full energy res which also boosts heals = good? With HB, restore life is half cast, combine this with a healing prayers weapon set and you're good to go. Casting time and amount of health/energy after you have been rezzed only really matters if you are combat rezzing. And non-UA monks should not combat rez, ever.

Reverend Dr

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

UA is fine on a monk, the reason being is that it is incredibly useful outside of just rezing.

Restore life is horrible on anyone. I've brought rebirth on monks before, but that is as a last ditch save the group, get everyone's dead corpse out, non-combat rez; I can't really say that it has every ultimately been worth bringing (other than to cover up for terrible builds and terrible players, which isn't a reason to bring anything).

Also feel free to drop all rezes if you bring rez scrolls.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

I'm all for monk having a rez because when I play as a Mesmer I can only bring rez sig, since my secondary is usually locked to As or Ele. Other group members might be in same situation. Considering how likely it is that PuG will die, and die often, some permanent rez on a monk is highly desirable and usually proves more useful than minor gain from 8th heal/prot skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc
why not take the primary rit?
As elementalist or mesmer you could do much else than that. Even in HM, elemental AoE damage is quite welcome sometimes, not to mention that eles have huge defensive capabilities (a warder with Blurred Vision does more for defense than an imbagon does). Those are just examples.
Anonymity is a great problem as well as a great benefit. People don't do stuff because they can but because they want to. Being able to do what you want is great, as long as you want to do what is right. Which means that anonimity is a great benefit.. but only to 'criminals'. Exactly what I'm talking about. How many people who 'do what is right' need anonimity in GW? When you help someone in the mission, you don't really care whether others know or not. But when you scam someone, don't pay a run etc, you want anonimity.

I blame Guru and GWO for that as well. They help these 'criminals' to remain anonimous. Part of the responsibility is therefore theirs as well. For instance, when some people were leeching in Fort Aspenwood all day long, it wasn't allowed to post on the forum who they are. Because anonimity was sacred. Well, those who support such 'sacred' things are quite similiar to those who do them.

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

The people who want naming and shaming so badly are usually even bigger criminals.

Dzjudz

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

I love how people always say "monks shouldn't combat-res, ever." I can see that in PvP this would pose a problem (other team sees monk ressing -> instant spike in unprotected moment). In PvE however, you usually have 2 monks. 1 monk can keep the team from falling apart in the 2 seconds (or less) it takes to res someone, trust me . AI doesn't recognise ressing as a GOGO-SPIKE-NOW moment.

the_jos

the_jos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hard Mode Legion [HML]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
I'm all for monk having a rez because when I play as a Mesmer I can only bring rez sig, since my secondary is usually locked to As or Ele. Other group members might be in same situation. Considering how likely it is that PuG will die, and die often, some permanent rez on a monk is highly desirable and usually proves more useful than minor gain from 8th heal/prot skill.
First a little on topic.
When a res is needed and the skill does not fit on the bar use scrolls.
Make sure people understand that you use scrolls.
Monk with res is not-optimal, it's the monk's job to keep people alive, not to clean up the mess others make (we talk PvE....).
Hard res should be on midline, not on backline. When none of the 2 or 3 midline players cannot go /Mo or /Rt the team should reconsider the team build.
Only exception is UA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
Which means that anonimity is a great benefit.. but only to 'criminals'. Exactly what I'm talking about. How many people who 'do what is right' need anonimity in GW? I will give an example I read about a while ago.
In some 'primitive cultures/tribes' there are almost no reported mentally ill people in hospitals and sanctuaries and such.
Someone went to investigate and found out that those cultures do have people we consider mentally ill. Some of those people even killed other people in rage or were behaving bad very often.

You know what those close groups said? We know this.... The killer lost his mind when he killed, we cannot blame him/her for that moment of insanity, it was not him.
And about the bad behaving people? Oh, that's him, we know about him and take care about him. He cannot help he's that way, but is part of our group and we help whoever is our group.

Since our society does not function that way and puts everyone who behaves not according to rules and regulations outside society we need anonimity. Or improve society, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
Since GW is mainly a reflection of western society expect to see the same behaviour there.
So we 'demand' naming and shaming to push people out of 'our GW society', while this naming and shaming has no proven historic track-record for actually working in the real world.....
Yup, just as UA is the exception to step 3, scrolls are the exception to step 2. Also, of course, every team member don't need to bring a rez everywhere. In some places the chance of death is just so tiny, 3-4 rezes are sufficient. In others, it's basically insanity to not take a rez (skill or scroll).

Quote: Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
I'm all for monk having a rez because when I play as a Mesmer I can only bring rez sig, since my secondary is usually locked to As or Ele. Other group members might be in same situation. Considering how likely it is that PuG will die, and die often, some permanent rez on a monk is highly desirable and usually proves more useful than minor gain from 8th heal/prot skill.
Hard rez should be put on characters who are completely efficient without using a secondary, or whose professions already include a hard rez. Examples would be warrior and ritualist, respectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip
View Post
That's a paper example. Post here a full 8-skill build of Elementalist in HM, that in your opinion would be more useful than E/Rt. Earth Attunement
Ebon Hawk
Glowstone
Churning Earth
Unsteady Ground
Eruption
Ward Against Melee (other ward if needed)
Resurrection Chant

This build provides lots of knockdown and defense against melee, as well as providing decent damage as long as AI movement can be controlled. Its DPS is of course less than a spirit spammer, but as I already have explained, taking this ele makes it possible to take a Rt/X SoS, which would be better than a E/Rt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
Which means that anonimity is a great benefit.. but only to 'criminals'. Exactly what I'm talking about. How many people who 'do what is right' need anonimity in GW? When you help someone in the mission, you don't really care whether others know or not. But when you scam someone, don't pay a run etc, you want anonimity.
(...)
Because anonimity was sacred. Well, those who support such 'sacred' things are quite similiar to those who do them. No, not only for criminals. Anonymity means that all social pressure is removed, including such pressure that would lead you to commit questionable actions. Also, if you are anonymous and still do what is right, you are actually a moral person, much more so than if you do what is right because you are socially obliged to do so.
While this is an interesting topic (despite being off topic), I'd need to know how much sociology/psychology you have studied before I can discuss it with you.
Of course, the ban on posting in-game names here without permission is to prevent abuse.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by the jos
When a res is needed and the skill does not fit on the bar use scrolls.
Make sure people understand that you use scrolls.
Monk with res is not-optimal, it's the monk's job to keep people alive, not to clean up the mess others make (we talk PvE....).
Hard res should be on midline, not on backline. When none of the 2 or 3 midline players cannot go /Mo or /Rt the team should reconsider the team build.
Problems I see here:

1. You are saying that to solve pug problem one should waste money on pugs; rez scrolls, various boosts. Yes I have rez scrolls in case of emergency but I should not have to pay for pug incompetence. Id rather waste it on guildies.

2. You say that a leader of a pug group should tell to people who have no rez and locked secondary profession, to buy rez scrolls. Mmmm yea good luck.

3. Youre saying its monks job to keep people alive but others dont have a job? You see, job of 6 people is to deal damage or mitigate it. Using the same logic, they shouldnt take rez either because they are doing damage. And with enough damage and support less healing is needed.
Monk in pve can heal very well with 7 skills. This isnt PvP. You dont need condition removal or hex removal, dont need antispike skills such as shield bash or whatever is used in pvp these days. Thats right, my pve monk has neither condition nor hex removal and i couldnt care less.

Basically what im saying is that when i monk i want others to inflict a lot of damage. What I dont want is have MeA switch to MeMo so he can get Rebirth, and thus losing half of his firepower. I dont like when i monk and have to wait 5min for each mob to die.


4. That usual PuG team will be organized as highly organized team, spending 20min just getting proper people.

Quote:
while this naming and shaming has no proven historic track-record for actually working in the real world... Yes it is proven and there were even sociology tests by western scientists. Just because youre not familiar with it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. And no, I cant give you link, Ive studied that at my university among other things. I didnt search internet data and dont feel like now.

Quote:
will give an example I read about a while ago.
In some 'primitive cultures/tribes' there are almost no reported mentally ill people in hospitals and sanctuaries and such.
Someone went to investigate and found out that those cultures do have people we consider mentally ill. Some of those people even killed other people in rage or were behaving bad very often.

You know what those close groups said? We know this.... The killer lost his mind when he killed, we cannot blame him/her for that moment of insanity, it was not him. My conclusion would be that primitive tribes have primitive rules and views.

I take it you concluded how lovely people are who tolerate bad deeds and how noble that is? Alright, then we will have to differ here, because I thing such mentality only someone like them can have. So if some maniac is killing other people around because he is mentally ill (kinda obvious isnt it) then im all for organizing duck hunt on him and killing him with pleasure and smile. That is my definition of noble.
Because invariably the people who control this power abuse it for their own and point it at someone who's inconveniencing them.

Quote:
Naming and shaming works. But you probably prefer keeping things hidden like Catholic church their pedophiles in Ireland and elsewhere. Hardly, I am not like you. But seriously, the naming and shaming thas is so prevalent in those communties has done nothing to stop the abuse.

The problem lies with people not believing the victims because they don't dare to question their own believes, they don't want to be betrayed by those they've put their trust in.

They'll feel no different towards those they thrust to do the naming and shaming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
Yes it is proven and there were even sociology tests by western scientists. Your mistake is believing that this group pressure will automagically result in something that is morally desirable.

syphonus

syphonus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2007

The Dirtiest Parts Of My Mind

Phlying Skwirls[PS]

N/

Step 1: Play for the team, and the team will play for you

Agree wholeheartedly.
Step 2: Bring rez

Eh. Because it's pug, I'll give it to you. 3 PvE skills and an elite don't leave much room, though.

Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk

Good enough for me. And UA is eeeh; I'd feel safer seeing someone with HB on their bar. And I'd much rather see Boon Prot or the like. Otherwise..

Step 3a: Monk with an Ele

Almost impossible to convince a pugger to do this. You have infinite energy.. use it to spam the most useful prots, PvE skills, and heals you can get your hands on at zero cost.

Step 5: Bring a warrior build if you are a warrior

I absolutely agree with this, and I like your attitude.

Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? [Do what your] profession is made for, nuking, shooting arrows, doing awesome melee damage or just standing around making purple sparks in the air, respectively. Ele's were made for nuking, five or so years ago. They have ceased to be of any use in that role. Right now they excel at things that require good energy management, such as PvE skills, but requires their elite; however they are not the only one.

Otherwise I sort of agree; the ranger is seriously hindered by the relative unimportance of shutdown and condition applying in PvE. Splinter barrage isn't awful, but it's a far cry from the downright retarded amount of pressure you can get with a sin, or war. If I were a super elitist I wouldn't roll with a ranger, ever, except for gimmick uses. Actually, for the most part I'd just run around with sins, wars, necs, eles(only with ER) and monks(preferably supporting Ele with HB). And a rit, maybe.

Step 7: Don't be a retard
Yes. But don't get your hopes up.

Overall, a very good guide to improve the general quality of pugs. I sincerely hope that there are people to read it.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Step 1: Play for the team, and the team will play for you
Guild Wars is about teamwork. In a perfect team, you are not playing the 8 skills on your bar - the entire team is playing the 64 skills on the sum total of all teammates' bars, as one entity. Of course no team is perfect, but you can and should still adapt your build to the team. If you have an excessive amount of self-heals, maybe substitute those for some damage skills and let the monks do the healing. If you choose between Vampiric Gaze and Barbs, maybe take Barbs even though you personally can't trigger the effect.
Agree.

Quote:
Step 2: Bring rez
You have 8 slots on your bar. Fill them up. Now remove one skill. Go ahead. Yes, that one, the one that adds like 0.5 to your DPS. You don't need it. What you need to put in there is some skill to revive your fallen teammates. No, the plan isn't that people should die. But you have 7 skills for when everything goes as planned.
And one skill for when nothing does.
I think you are missing a crucial factor to consider here, THE MISSION or QUEST that the team is undertaking. On some missions, it is more crucial to bring a res than on others. The missions would also dictate what kind of res you should or should not bring.

For example, on missions that would automatically fail if the team dies, bringing a res like the Death Pact Signet increases your chance of mission failure. But of course, those who follow Sabway blindly would not know or understand this.

However, Death Pact Signet is an excellent res for HM vanquishing. Why? Because it reduces the chance of the entire team reaching 60DP and be kicked out of HM. That has always been the design of the original Sabway build.

Also some pugs regard Rebirth as a bad res to bring because it drains all your energy. But in many missions, if it has not been for Rebirth, the mission would have been lost. Even though using Rebirth at the wrong time can be disasterous.

Quote:
Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one. Most pugs actually expect monks to bring res. Also note that not everyone would be X/Mo, X/P, X/Rt, Rt/X, or P/X in your party.

Should they then bring a res signet instead? Perhaps, but again, the answer lies on the mission or quest that the team is undertaking. On missions that grant frequent morale boost, taking a res sig may just be as good as taking a hard res.

Quote:
Step 4: Put on an attunement if you are ele
I see this on so many elementalists and I don't know why. Packing an attunement will give you back loads of energy for each spell you cast, preventing you from running low so fast. Taking Elemental Attunement means you can spam energy-heavy spells without break pretty much endlessly, though it also means giving up your elite, so it's not recommended. The normal attunement for your chosen element will ensure that you won't run dry in the middle of a protracted battle, or as a result of multiple encounters in quick succession. Again, this depends on the mission or quest. In areas with lots of enchant removal, I hate bringing attunement. I would rather bring AP+GoLE instead.

Quote:
Step 6: No, you are not a ritualist, unless you actually are a ritualist, of course.
You are an elementalist, or a ranger, or an assassin, or a mesmer, and so on, so why do you bring a whole bar full of spirits? Can't you see all those PvX copycats hanging around the outpost spamming "SoS lfp"? If we wanted a spirit spammer, we'd take one of them (which we probably already did), not you, since they can do a much better job of it than you can. Fear not, though; all is not lost, since you can do a much better job doing what your profession is made for, nuking, shooting arrows, doing awesome melee damage or just standing around making purple sparks in the air, respectively. As others have said, a R/Rt can be more effective as a rit than as ranger. But unfortunately for them, rits are quite plentiful. A R/Rt having a spirit spammer bar is understandable since rangers badly need a buff, but they should give way to a real rit if available.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
E/Rt provides superior damage
Character-wise? Hell yes. But see Step 1. Always consider the team, not your character. Due to opportunity cost, taking an E/Rt means you can't take an Rt/X, since their spirits would "overwrite" each other. Therefore, you must choose only one of them. And since an Rt/X provides superior damage over an E/Rt, taking that earth ele means that your teamwide damage improves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
BTW, I would run EBSoH over Ward against Melee. Too good. It depends on the area you are playing in, and the rest of your team setup, but generally you are right.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Character-wise? Hell yes. But see Step 1. Always consider the team, not your character. Due to opportunity cost, taking an E/Rt means you can't take an Rt/X, since their spirits would "overwrite" each other. Therefore, you must choose only one of them. And since an Rt/X provides superior damage over an E/Rt, taking that earth ele means that your teamwide damage improves.
As already stated:

1. The damage E/Rt does compared to Rt/x is almost exactly the same, if players are equally good, and E/Rt can be better if it's a better player. Talking about 'superior build' in this case, and especially PuG case, is just to be nit-picky. Also, when PuG team goes for 'superior builds', this forum is full of posts about profession/title/skillbar discrimination.

2. The team will not always have SoS Rt, and if it accepts SoS Rt Ele or someone else can always change the build. If that doesn't happen, why is it bad if Ele is spirit spammer?

3. That ele *is* thinking about the team. To help the team he took best damage build. He also might not want to play the same build all the time, and since he may not have Rt he tries to have fun with spirit spam on ele.

4. There's actually enough place for two spirit spammers, if the other uses Ghostly Might.


I understand those who want more 'roleplaying' and want each class to stick to their own skills. But you're not using that argument. So in terms of team-usefulness and skill power, that ele is simply adapting to ANet's silly skill balances which on purpose made some skills super-overpowered so that some professions get to see play.

Quote:
Earth Attunement
Ebon Hawk
Glowstone
Churning Earth
Unsteady Ground
Eruption
Ward Against Melee (other ward if needed)
Resurrection Chant
Damage comparison:

* That build: 37 DPS to Master of Damage. In PvE, your aoe spells would hit more foes here and there, but overall everyone would also be higher level.

* E/Rt: 113 DPS. 3x more.


Utility comparison:

* That ele earth has 50% block vs melee.. certainly useful. It has 5/22sec knockdown on attacking foes. 5/33sec window to cause blind for 10sec. Weakness condition. I'd like to point out here we're talking about PuGs and they wont stand in the ward all the time, nor will it be sometimes advisable because monster AoE spells will hurt more.

* E/Rt has spirits that can soak some damage if enemy melee goes on them, and also I used Shadowsong which keeps one permanently blind if placed properly. AoE hexes making it easier for other hexers.



I hope it's now clear why people prefer E/Rt over that earth ele. E/Rt has 3x more damage. It actually has 4x more damage in non-mob situations.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
1. The damage E/Rt does compared to Rt/x is almost exactly the same, if players are equally good, and E/Rt can be better if it's a better player. Talking about 'superior build' in this case, and especially PuG case, is just to be nit-picky. Also, when PuG team goes for 'superior builds', this forum is full of posts about profession/title/skillbar discrimination.
No, the Rt/X is really better, even if it's just a little. It's the same reason people take vampiric weapons: hey it's just 3 extra damage per hit, but it's the best allround option and there's no reason to not take it.
Also he will put some points in Spawning Power making his spirits more durable (not that that is usually a problem). Also, Spawning Power makes weapon spells last longer. Most spirit spammers don't bring weapon spells, though.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Josip View Post 2. The team will not always have SoS Rt, and if it accepts SoS Rt Ele or someone else can always change the build. If that doesn't happen, why is it bad if Ele is spirit spammer?
It's not particularly bad. I usually PUG in Zaishen missions, and those usually have at least 3-4 SoS rits in party search.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
4. There's actually enough place for two spirit spammers, if the other uses Ghostly Might. True. But even in that case you'd prefer two Rt/X...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip View Post
* That build: 37 DPS to Master of Damage. In PvE, your aoe spells would hit more foes here and there, but overall everyone would also be higher level. If you try to use an earth ele builds with wards for damage, I seriously suspect that your knowledge of this game isn't that great. The damage is incidental, just like an imbagon's spear damage is incidental. The important part is the AoE knockdown, the AoE blind and the AoE block, making your entire party essentially invulnerable to physicals. All physicals, not just one.

If I wanted ideal team builds, I'd go with heroes or guildies, not PuGs. If I PuG, it means I decided to sacrifice a lot of performance, and am willing to risk a lot overall (unpredictability of PuGs). That's the whole point here. If I PuG, I'm not going to make a big deal out of 1% damage difference, so to speak.

And if I make a PuG group, I can either
1) ignore dervishes and warriors and assassins, because I think they're only worth it if team build revolves around them (read: buffs); ignore elementalists if they aint E/Mo
2) I can stop being discriminative towards professions which are unlucky due to ANet's current imbalance policy, and agree to let those professions in my group. In which case I'd of course prefer optimal or near-optimal builds (E/Rt..).


PuGing is often letting people play what they want, as long as it gets the job done. We're not doing speed clears here.

Quote:
If you try to use an earth ele builds with wards for damage, I seriously suspect that your knowledge of this game isn't that great.
I'm not trying to use earth ele build at all.

Quote:
The damage is incidental, just like an imbagon's spear damage is incidental. The important part is the AoE knockdown, the AoE blind and the AoE block, making your entire party essentially invulnerable to physicals. All physicals, not just one. Yea right. Now that I proved how weak damage on that ele is, you're trying to prove that Earth Henchman is actually Imbagon in disguise. Get real.

Invulnerable? 5/22 seconds knock down on foes that decide to remain in AoE. 5/32 seconds window for causing blind. 5/33 seconds of knock down for those moving faster than normal (read: melee). Weakness. All this overlaps with Ward Against Melee. And, by the way, having your PuG team inside the ward is difficult and risky (AoE) - henchies stand together anyway unless you love microing them, which is why ward against melee is good there.

Not to mention how useless this is when running into mostly non-physical mob, which is usually the most dangerous and the cause of most wipes/deaths. Comparable, E/Rt will have constant firepower regardless of the enemy it faces.


Quote: Originally Posted by reaper with no name There is no benefit to being a spirit spamming elementalist. None. If you're using spirit spam, it means the party's ritualist can't. That means the party is less effective than it would be if he did spirit spam and you did something else. You completely missed the point of the discussion. This isn't about what is better: X or Y. It's about if you have to take Y, is Ya better than Yb. I don't know how difficult it is to understand that.

And assuming that *every* PuG group will have Rt spirit spammer is just wrong, in practice *it does not happen*. Even with 1 spirit spammer E/Rt can still use Ghostly Might and remaining spirits the other Rt doesn't use. Still more useful to the team than E/whatever. Now, how often do you see 2 Rt spammers in a PuG team? Exactly.

Quote:
Now, if the party doesn't have a rit, that's different, but don't try to pretend that you're as effective as an actual rit. No matter how well you can do it, you are ultimately a pale shadow of a rit. Stop putting words in other peoples mouth and pay attention to the discussion. Who says E/Rt is as effective as an actual Rt in this thread? No one.

Pale shadow of a rit? Yea right, 1% difference is pale shadow. Sounds like someone is scared of competition.

Quote:
A PUG has absolutely no reason to take you over a ritualist with the same build. A PuG has absolutely no reason to be nit-picky about 1% of damage, and "same builds" happen rarely. There's always some difference among spirit spammers in my PuG teams.

What you're saying has absolutely no touch with reality, and is no use to this discussion. Using the same logic you're using, A PuG would have absolutely no reason to take some professions AT ALL because others are better. But that's not how most PuGs work, nor is it how I or many of us want PuGs to work.