In a PuG there is one guy, that refuses to listen to the rest of the group and insists that he is right.
This guy ruins the PuG.
Better PUGing by improving your build in 7 steps
Reverend Dr
Zahr Dalsk
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
2. I generally avoid SF teams. I don't enjoy playing the game in utterly-invincible-but-low-offense-and-must-skip-content mode. Sometimes I'll farm with it. One in a blue moon I'll join a PUG team that relies on SF. Even for the areas where SF really makes sense, at this point it's not illogical to start looking for things that will work post-nerf and practicing them.
Now, if someone said "you know, running a team full of SF sins would be better than the current team build," my response would NOT be "you're wrong; this is better." My response would either be, "yes, but I'm not interested in doing that because I don't find it fun," or "yes, but we don't have enough sins to do that."
Notice how that coincides with what I said earlier. The difference between the good player and the bad player each saying "I'm right, you're wrong" is the good player's ability and willingness to distinguish when the other person's position is right, wrong, or not immediately determinable, and respond accordingly. In the case of SF, someone suggesting it would be right, and I would concede they were right, though I probably wouldn't join them for other reasons.
Improvavel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
2. I generally avoid SF teams. I don't enjoy playing the game in utterly-invincible-but-low-offense-and-must-skip-content mode. Sometimes I'll farm with it. One in a blue moon I'll join a PUG team that relies on SF. Even for the areas where SF really makes sense, at this point it's not illogical to start looking for things that will work post-nerf and practicing them.
Now, if someone said "you know, running a team full of SF sins would be better than the current team build," my response would NOT be "you're wrong; this is better." My response would either be, "yes, but I'm not interested in doing that because I don't find it fun," or "yes, but we don't have enough sins to do that."
Notice how that coincides with what I said earlier. The difference between the good player and the bad player each saying "I'm right, you're wrong" is the good player's ability and willingness to distinguish when the other person's position is right, wrong, or not immediately determinable, and respond accordingly. In the case of SF, someone suggesting it would be right, and I would concede they were right, though I probably wouldn't join them for other reasons. And someone playing a word of healing hybrid might argue that infinite energy doesn't go in the same sentence as "balanced team".
So the woh player will tell you "while ER is more powerful I don't find it fun" or "ER is dull cause it's spamming" or even an ele player will tell you the same.
Sometimes the game isn't just about power levels - PvP is about playing the absolute best because the enemy can actually fight back; in PvE fun is also a fundamental part of the game.
ElnoreVarda
Why do you keep pushing it? Are you that bitter? You avoid the actual topic so you can whine about crap you dont like. This is about pugging, not about that you think PvE balance is facking shit right now.
Balanced team build has nothing to do with skill or game balance!!!
ER ruins prot/spike heal monking, SF ruins balanced and other tanks and cons ruins alot. Argue for that instead. Arguing for that "ER is lame because its powerful and lame" or "SF is nooby because spells and attacks cant hit you" is ... disgusting.
Balanced team build has nothing to do with skill or game balance!!!
ER ruins prot/spike heal monking, SF ruins balanced and other tanks and cons ruins alot. Argue for that instead. Arguing for that "ER is lame because its powerful and lame" or "SF is nooby because spells and attacks cant hit you" is ... disgusting.
ElnoreVarda
No one said it was bad? Someone said ER is more powerful than WoH + prots, which is true.
Already said it, but will say it again: People play the game in different ways; some want loot, some want to make builds, some want to relax, some want to grief and the list goes on forever.
Already said it, but will say it again: People play the game in different ways; some want loot, some want to make builds, some want to relax, some want to grief and the list goes on forever.
Improvavel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
Minion's point was that your premise, "SF is the best at everything," is wrong some of the time. In a balanced team situation, SF sucks pretty badly.
As a result, your rhetorical question only makes the point you want it to make some of the time. If I went into speed clear groups and insisted that something else was a better idea than SF, I'd be a moron. However, in a balanced group, someone insisting on running SF would be the moron.
I suppose one could always go into a balanced group and insist that a speed clear group would be better, so the entire party should be changed. That would be correct. But you can't convert a balanced group into a SF group unless everyone is willing to leave and come back with an assassin character -- which many won't want to do because they (a) want to use the character that they're on right now, (b) don't have a sin, or (c) don't find SF very enjoyable.
As long as Shadow Form isn't countered and/or mobs aren't very small/too spread, having a single Shadow Form grabbing aggro and then use AoE skills, like Mark of Pain, 100blades, splinter, foc, RoJ, etc, will always be faster, the few seconds spent to aggro are more than compensated by the speeding kill, especially if aggroing huge mobs.
We aren't talking about slow obby tanks throwing armor sensible damage - manly spikes, for example, require various professions and are fast.
Its fun - balanced teams use physicals to abuse mop, but the best mop setups are done by a Shadow Form while the physicals of a balanced team are probably better killing different targets instead of focusing.
Also, curiously, the other areas where this doesn't apply are also generally lower threat area and a comparison between the best builds like ER E/Mo and WoH hybrid monk makes less sense, as the end results are similar.
My point is - where can you see the difference between the best builds and the less optimal, like in the ER E/Mo vs WoH example? In the areas with huge amount of hard hitting mobs.
What works best in those areas? Shadow Form setting up a ball of enemies to be wiped by AoE.
Or do you guys need a ER setting up 8 PB to finish a HM mission? Or an Imbagon?
PuGs fail because of the following
Quote:
In that certain situation you mention I got a bit annoyed cause that was going to be a casual dungeon and then it was all serious business with consumables and lets make sure we are running the best builds - and the party starters weren't interested on that.
Quote: And why do you say that I am speaking about physway when I talk about balanced in general? And then you go on about whether its the meta or not. Before that you even describe - very simplified - the difference between a good and a bad build.... That was a reply to Chthon, not to you. I was just using your remark to respond to Chton - sorry for the misunderstanding
Quote: You are still whining about how other people play the game and that balance isnt that good in pve. Cant you just say that, instead of semi-raging all over the place? Presenting arguments that dont really contribute to what is being discussed. First I could care less about the game balance - it would actually be nice if Anet stop trying retarded solutions like adding dhuum skeletons to solve perceived problems and creating even more problems in its place.
Second, telling me I'm whining about how other people play the game when yourself admit you keep telling people to change skills is somewhat ironic, although I don't care, unless I'm starting a byob party and then people are told to change skills.
Again you are saying that because you think I'm picking at you when I'm just picking at the general attitude that if a build isn't the best it sucks - that isn't true because the build only needs to be as good as to accomplish the objective and if it does so in similar amount of time the differences are irrelevant.
That attitude of only certain builds being allowed is what create things like R/Pet tombs, because sometimes the perceived best build isn't the actual best build or just gets outdated.
If the only criteria is power, and power can be measured in PvE by completion speed and success, everyone would be doing speed clears, duo farming, etc.
So we do agree on that.
