Better PUGing by improving your build in 7 steps

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
If you are a good player, you should have successful PUGs.
Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Quote: Originally Posted by khezial tahr View Post Seriously? What does my skill or skill bar have to do with 7 other people's level of skill?
I think this might make a lot more sense with the understanding that Minion (and many other people in THAY and RARE) form PUGs very differently than most people do. The results are much, much better, at the cost of a lot more time and effort forming the group.

I'm going to stereotype a little here when I say that the formation of a typical PUG goes something like this:
Mending Wammo sends blind invite to SoS Rit sitting in the party search list.
SoS accepts.
Spam time: "2/8 GLFM HM!!! no noobs!!!"
Accepts request from D/A running garbage like AoB or such.
Accepts request from W/Rt running SoS.
Accepts request from Me/E running respectable Fevered Dreams build.
Accepts request from R/Me running BHA+Epidemic, passable, but redundant because of the memser.
Accepts request from A/E who is running perma despite the obvious lack of tank-n-spank compatibility with the rest of the team.
Someone: "We need 2 healers. Kick mes."
Mending Wammo: "Sorry mes."
Kicks mesmer.
Spam: "6/8 GLF monks. HM!!! No noobs!!"
Accepts request from Mo/Me with UA, 6 spot heals, and Rebirth.
Accepts request from Mo/E with HB, 5 spot heals, Rebirth, and Summon Ruby Djinn.
Everyone: "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1"
No one ever pings their build or asks someone else to ping.
Party zones out, pops cons, fails horribly.

By contrast, the kind of PUG formation Minion is talking about goes more like this:

First, it's usually only a partial PUG. Usually there's 2 or 3 people from THAY, RARE, f-list, etc. in the team. And usually these people are taking care of the key roles. If you've got 2 ER eles and an AP-MoP necro who you know you can count on, that lowers the bar significantly as to what quality is required of the rest of the team. Like Ensign said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign View Post
Retards with Order of the Vampire, Strength of Honor, and Great Dwarf Weapon on them do tons of damage. You can have a Defy Pain Warrior with 9 in his weapon mastery and he'll beast things. Second, there's an overall plan for the team build. Not grab-bag randomway. There can be flexibility as in "LF 2x melee and 1x necro or mes" -- any melee class will do, as will either a necro or a mes. Things that don't fit the plan, don't get accepted.

Third, everyone gets asked to ping, one at a time. If they won't ping, they're booted. If they do ping, the following process occurs:If they are obviously irredeemably bad (like a monk with Summon Ruby Djinn or a SoS warrior), they get kicked. The threshhold for how bad is irredeemably bad varies depending upon how vital their role is. A warrior can get away with being more retarded than a monk or ER ele can. They are asked if they can run X build that the party needs. If they say "sure" and load a good variant of the build, they're done and the leader moves on to the next person. If they load a bad variant of the build or don't even know what it is, the leader hands them off to one of the reliable people who best knows the class (unless the leader himself knows that class best) to give them the build the party needs and teach them the basics of using it. The leader then moves on to the next person. If, after being given the desired build, they seem too incompetent to run it, they get kicked. If, after being given the desired build, they seem competent to run it, but need to buy skills or fish weapons from heroes/other characters, their spot is held for them to buy the skills or fish weapons and come back. Anyone who gets kicked gets replaced through GLF spam until every spot is filled with someone "competent enough" with a passable variant on the desired build for their role in the planned team build.

Obviously, this takes a lot more time than blindly accepting invites and hitting "1 1 1 1 1 1." It also takes more knowledge -- you have to be a good player who can plan the entire team build and explain the individual builds to people. (And that, I think, was Minion's point.) And it takes more effort. "1 1 1 1 1 1" is a hell of a lot easier than putting up with "I'm a perma. I don't have Death Blossom unlocked."

The benefit for that time and effort is fantastic results. A few days ago I did Stygian Veil HM (had both ZB's active) with myself, 2 alliance people, and 5 PUG people. Waltzed through it. With not a few people who had never done DoA before and were only there for the ZB. Waltzed.

It's also a pretty good recruitment tool. I know RARE has picked up several very solid players who joined after being partial-PUG members for UW balanced clears.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
I never said you can't deal with pugs. But you imply that you don't want to because of bad actions or people.
Then you have misunderstood my post.

Quote: I never state that you should bring cons but it does help Who does that help? Nobody except the impatient players who want their titles before they actually deserve them and that lowers the standard of the game as a whole.

Quote:
and the reasoning is the same: if your going to invest time in a pug, you might as well invest money because its the same thing. And my reasoning is NO because you dont need to invest money in cons to PUG. How do you think people PUG before EOTN and cons came about?

Quote: You, sir, if you don't mind me saying- are somewhat foolish and did not read all of my posts. There is a logic to my answers, however Cthon is better at explaining than I am, dumbs it down for the thickies. And we're back to PUGs!

Actually, if you don't mind I think I shall share an anecdote with you all.
Did Foundry yesterday for ZB. Me and one friend, a sin. I went as an ER and found (Rare find, always excited to see one) a PUG ER that could run secondary bonder. The rest of the team slowly filled up---
Rit SoS was easy to get, made him drop PI, because it sucks when everyone takes a maximum of 25~damage. Earthbind replaced it, and it was indeed a good move for removing stress from some mobs.

Our team looked like this by the time I had finished searching and fixing builds (after 26 minutes):
1.ER infuse/bonder
2.ER Secondary bond/infuser
3.Rit SoS/Earthbind
4.Imbagon (important, with spear of redemption due to massive blind spam.)
5.Dervish with avatar of Melandru if I recall correctly. Needed Fleeting stability to work well in areas.
6.Mo/Me echo RoJer, with Dwayna's sorrow to cover enchants party-wide (after a few fails, found a solution to a problem that hurt bad, without kicking the player/changing complete build.)
7.Mo/Me "Cleaner" maintaining SoH on physicals. Signet of Removal is a godly elite when using bonds on everyone. Could not do this without the mass hex/condi removal we had with this build.
8. Gyre our pet assassin with IaU and assassin's remedy (I think, not sure if he added it in the end)

Anyway, I use an essence with everything I do on my elementalist, and we failed 3 times really early on, after I had used the essence of course. But upon failing, each time I changed one skill in the party; having analyzed the problem (blind, KD spams, interrupts, AoE ench strips) I fixed it on the 4th go we flew.

My question to you "gurus", would you have ragequit had you used your cons and failed on the second section so soon, or fixed the problems and retried as many times as it took to win?

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Who does that help? Nobody except the impatient players who want their titles before they actually deserve them and that lowers the standard of the game as a whole.
The overwhelming power of PvE skills make it so that people don't need to learn from their mistakes. Even without consets. At least it takes some level of a skill to use PvE skills well. But it takes 0 skills to double click on a power stone to undo all your mistakes. How does that promote better skills like pulling before charging in?

Stealth Bomberman

Stealth Bomberman

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2008

i think ill stick to h/h and friends. less stressful

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Pretty much spot on, Cthon. The rest who rage in pugs or go h/h ARE the title hunters and mean SERIOUS BUSINESS. It's a game that's meant to be played with people. Bots are simply substitutes when we can't find players to be with.

Quote:
Seriously? What does my skill or skill bar have to do with 7 other people's level of skill?
You can same the same as PvE skills and a myriad of other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
And my reasoning is NO because you dont need to invest money in cons to PUG. How do you think people PUG before EOTN and cons came about? There is no reason to use the word "NEED" because as I said, nothing is needs to be done if you don't want to do so. If you're willing to invest time but not cons then that is your choice.

With enough cons, you can even make a poor pug look good in PvE.

That is the problem.

Quote: So do I when I want to form a guild/alliance group and it usually ends up being such. It is not the same when the important roles are already filled by trustworthy people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
First, it's usually only a partial PUG. Usually there's 2 or 3 people from THAY, RARE, f-list, etc. in the team. That is a partial PUG, not a real PUG. Not as much fun drama as what a real PUG can provide.

If I want efficiency, I would form a guild group and that's it.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
Well, when I go to do the ZB or ZM, everyone invites guildies first, then asks the Alliance. If no one or few people want to come, then the party opens up to the PUG market. Even though they say a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, I like to give people a chance, as I know certain roles are less important/easier.
I have formed PUGs without my friends before, and the result is rather similar. The only difference is there's no one I can properly trust until halfway through the mission after evaluating everyone's competence and attention to detail.

I only really tend to PUG on my elementalist, because as an ER bond/infuser, I can simply bond everyone and "drag" them through missions they would probably fail in a less organised team. I use EoC, nothing more. People rarely die. That is not a fun build for me but I can play that role in my guild/alliance group if needed.

I PUG to watch the drama and dying is necessary for learning should people make a mistake. If people dont feel the pain from their mistakes, they would not recognize them as mistakes and will repeat them in the future. Death serves an important purpose.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
With enough cons, you can even make a poor pug look good in PvE.

That is the problem.
It's only a problem if you care enough to force them to learn and willing to spend time on it.

Quote:
There is no need to "force" anyone to learn and really, you can never force someone to learn if they dont wish to. Learning should come naturally when people realize where they go wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
I PUG to watch the drama and dying is necessary for learning should people make a mistake. If people dont feel the pain from their mistakes, they would not recognize them as mistakes and will repeat them in the future. Death serves an important purpose. What is this drama you're talking about? What do you mean exactly? Watching people learn through their pain of their mistakes?

Elephantaliste

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

adblockplus.or

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
If people dont feel the pain from their mistakes, they would not recognize them as mistakes and will repeat them in the future. Death serves an important purpose. The wise man learns from other's mistakes.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
It's only a problem if you care enough to force them to learn and willing to spend time on it.
It doesn't matter whether they are adults or children. Everybody has to start somewhere and learn by experimenting rather than cover it up with cons. If you disagree with them, fine, just put it to the test.

You would find that most parts of PvE is simple enough that you really dont need the most optimal build to succeed and as long as people have fun, even with their own builds, it really doesn't matter. Even if they have made a mistake by picking the wrong build, it is fun while it lasted and they would realize that they should have listened to you, later.

Quote:
What is this drama you're talking about? What do you mean exactly? Watching people learn through their pain of their mistakes? Watching people learning from their mistakes and become better players can be more satisfying than accomplishing the mission through the use of cons. It is more fun to pug, the natural way.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

There is only one simple step for a better pug:

SYNERGIZE YOUR SKILLS WITH THE REST OF YOUR GROUP!!!

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
View Post
I've noticed it seems more to be the adults who play and either think they're awesome OR think that because they're wise and have been playing for a long time, they are never wrong when it comes to a game.

I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild; and they were stubborn enough not to change one of the two monks. It was incredible...

The "children" know they're stupid, and will take as much advice as they can get, usually. That's what I did way back. Whaaaaaaaa....hahaha! While being kicked from the guild seems like quite an exaggeration I can't help but take the "adult" side. Playing a proper monk is likely a lot more fun, challenging and honorable than playing with some ER crap.

I can't speak for anyone but myself but I guess I'm considered an adult compared to your children. I'm willing to change my bar if the pug has specific requests but tbh the only reason I pug is to "play for kicks". I would never change my bar for the sake of efficiency alone. The concept of "speed clears" doesn't appeal to me one bit. The only way to pug is to join something with slim chances of "succeeding" the mission and do your best. This is how I remember pve from years and years ago, failing uw and fow every single time but it was FUN!

The other day a friend and I tried to form a randomway-pug for fow and after 30 mins we didn't find a single guy willing to join. They were all "no speed clear? loool, old farts!" or "no HM? noooobs!"

What a boring bunch of wikifarmers you've all become.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
I've noticed it seems more to be the adults who play and either think they're awesome OR think that because they're wise and have been playing for a long time, they are never wrong when it comes to a game.

I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild; and they were stubborn enough not to change one of the two monks. It was incredible...

The "children" know they're stupid, and will take as much advice as they can get, usually. That's what I did way back.
It's not just about efficiency either; it's about finishing. Who looks for a party to simply die soon into the game? When I PUG, I am always prepared to "die soon into the game". If I am not prepared to do that, then I wouldn't PUG in the first place, I would call my guild/alliance or use my heroes.

I find failing can be fun, when I have the time to PUG. And people usually learn a thing or two from the experience.

Reverend Dr

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

Its worse form to come into someone else's group and make demands. There have always been tons of people that do this, whether or not they are 'right' just depends upon the individual and the situation. However, this type of player is best dealt with by ignoring.

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

Minion is right, you are wrong. If someone is right, he's right to make demands on those who are wrong. If the people who are wrong won't listen and kick him for it, he's better off anyway.

There's nothing more valuable an E can do in the situation Minion pointed out that ER/Infuse. If there are two monks, then one of them can go party heal, while the other can smite. Most monks seem to like to smite!

I've played enough with "experienced" players who, when faced with an area they do not normally attempt and thus do not have a farming/SC build for, throw some retarded Wiki shit together, not attempting to synergize anything, and get wiped in minutes. The kind of people who won't switch his R/D to R/W SY! because they think the scythe is "cool", or who won't run Hundred Blades despite you sucking up to them with a Mark, because that is "lame". The E/Mo SF "nuker" who to this day can't believe that his elite spell doesn't do 100 damage and refuse to bring even the slightest bit of utility on his bar, except a Meteor Shower that he won't bring the Glyph for. The super-entitled monk who go "I'm a monk... you need me not to die" as an excuse to bring the HB build they haven't changed in 3 years and go camp, half asleep in the backline, then whining on the "tank" if people die.

Our groups don't fail.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr View Post
Its worse form to come into someone else's group and make demands. There have always been tons of people that do this, whether or not they are 'right' just depends upon the individual and the situation. However, this type of player is best dealt with by ignoring.
This is true.

If you are forming a group you can make demands. The other people have then the option to comply or leave.

If you are joining a group you don't make demands. If you don't like what is going on you leave.

It is very simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein View Post
Minion is right, you are wrong. If someone is right, he's right to make demands on those who are wrong. If the people who are wrong won't listen and kick him for it, he's better off anyway.

There's nothing more valuable an E can do in the situation Minion pointed out that ER/Infuse. If there are two monks, then one of them can go party heal, while the other can smite. Most monks seem to like to smite!

I've played enough with "experienced" players who, when faced with an area they do not normally attempt and thus do not have a farming/SC build for, throw some retarded Wiki shit together, not attempting to synergize anything, and get wiped in minutes. The kind of people who won't switch his R/D to R/W SY! because they think the scythe is "cool", or who won't run Hundred Blades despite you sucking up to them with a Mark, because that is "lame". The E/Mo SF "nuker" who to this day can't believe that his elite spell doesn't do 100 damage and refuse to bring even the slightest bit of utility on his bar, except a Meteor Shower that he won't bring the Glyph for. The super-entitled monk who go "I'm a monk... you need me not to die" as an excuse to bring the HB build they haven't changed in 3 years and go camp, half asleep in the backline, then whining on the "tank" if people die.

Our groups don't fail. That is all very good except when you take to the other extreme.

When you are doing some stupid shit HM dungeon and people still pick at some guy using earthshaker because there is GDW available - as if Earthshaker isn't powerful enough.

One thing is requiring the most powerful available builds to do the toughest areas, other is to do the same in EVERY AREA!

PvE isn't a competition. Imbagons, Order Necros, ER eles are very powerful but not that challenging to play and/or fun for some people.

The same you would say about Shadow Form.

I like how people bash Shadow Form (and I do so too) but then "how if your ele isn't running ER E/Mo you suck" as if having infinite energy while spamming infuse and having PB on half of your party is BALANCED!

You want utmost efficiency at the cost of FUN you go play PvP.

At a minimum you can't bash other people for not wanting to use the utmost efficient builds in PvE.

And before someone come with the rhetorical of mending warriors, I'll say "You can play mending warriors if you want - just don't expect to do all the stuff in the game or expect me to accept you in my teams". Someone will say to those ER healers "you can play ER E/Mo if you want - just don't expect to finish DoA HM in 1 hour or finish UW HM in 30 minutes and don't expect me to accept you in my team".

Fun can't be dissociated from PvE - and there are different types of fun.

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

In a real situation, nobody that's got any form of manners are going to come into a PUG making rigorous demands on everyone. What a reasonable person will do is suggest improvements, asking them if they can change this skill for that skill, or if they want to do another job.

In actuality, the people who actually care about constructing the optimal builds are the ones that are flexible, and the retards that are stuck in ancient times are rigorous. If you join as an E running anything but a nuker (or possibly an OF tank; those have been around for long enough now) will get kicked. The same, in different flavors, is true for all professions. Some of them won't even be able to find a group because the PUG wonders "wtf do we need a mesmer for".

We can field Paragons with swords, Necromancer SY!-bots, Dervish Orders, Elementalist Order/Warder/Ethers, Ritualist weapon spellers, Mesmer signet/SoH-spammers...

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
View Post
In a real situation, nobody that's got any form of manners are going to come into a PUG making rigorous demands on everyone. What a reasonable person will do is suggest improvements, asking them if they can change this skill for that skill, or if they want to do another job.

In actuality, the people who actually care about constructing the optimal builds are the ones that are flexible, and the retards that are stuck in ancient times are rigorous. If you join as an E running anything but a nuker (or possibly an OF tank; those have been around for long enough now) will get kicked. The same, in different flavors, is true for all professions. Some of them won't even be able to find a group because the PUG wonders "wtf do we need a mesmer for".

We can field Paragons with swords, Necromancer SY!-bots, Dervish Orders, Elementalist Order/Warder/Ethers, Ritualist weapon spellers, Mesmer signet/SoH-spammers... I've played a few times with thay people, although not with you, just for you to know.

Again, what you guys run isn't exactly a PuG - it is to pick up players to field a physcway - so basically 100b warriors, Moebius Sins, Scythe Sins, Imbagon, Dervs, supported by 2 E/Mo, and then maybe Ap-MoP or Orders and a guy or another.

Outside using a SF to setup for some kind of spike, manly or caster based, it is one of the best builds, but if you bring efficiency as the way to justify refusing taking an Earthshaker build (and no wasn't me using earthshaker) or a MB (or some other ele using ele skills and some support ward/battlestandards/PvE skills, etc) then you should be strictly running SF based spikes or Smiting/600 whatever.

You don't do that - so that means it is playing according to a personal philosophy.

There are several builds, that while not being the utmost efficient, can and will finish most areas in the game with very few problems or without taking much more time. An hybrid monk, although losing to E/Mo, can and will finish most of the areas in the game, for example, and it won't take much more time. It will of course be more challenging for the team and for the player playing monk.

Reading as I've read in these forums (not from you), that WoH hybrid monk is a stupid/weak build just because ER E/Mo exist... and I've noticed you didn't include a monk on the characters you field.

If ER gets the nerf shaft we will have to rely on those monks again - and a good monk is hard to find because it requires skill since it can't spam.

Solar AUS

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2009

E/A

Hi There.
I am a relatively new player (few months now) and really enjoy the game. I liked the initial post and the intention. Thx for the tips. It’s sad that the discussions turns into “what build is best/ better” etc
I Pug the z miss (HM) I do and my experience is surprisingly good. Thx to all the good guys out there. All z miss I did so far, could be completed even with not-perfect builds. The “common sense” from the initial post + half decent communication seems to be far more important than perfect builds. My exp is that missions fail when ppl leave, go afk, DC ...


I run a pretty “HM unfriendly” Searing Flames Fire Nuke/ Burning build (fire skills only, Gl Less Eng, 2 enchantments + Intensity, 2 weapon sets: enchanting/ fight). And yes all my armor is dyed red ;-) I might change the build later when I have access to more PvE skills. However, that’s what I have for now and I also like the “role play aspect” of it. I am just not a fan of the Necro “look and feel”, but hey, that’s just me … and while Im on it, the Ele dance is pathetic.

Normally I can find a group within a few minutes. In yesterdays z miss “Thirsty River” we had 2 ppl (out of 6 I think) running “fire/ burn builds” (no EotN skills) and the miss still went through with no probs.



Also agree with this:
Quote:

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar AUS View Post
Hi There.
I am a relatively new player (few months now) and really enjoy the game. I liked the initial post and the intention. Thx for the tips. It’s sad that the discussions turns into “what build is best/ better” etc
I Pug the z miss (HM) I do and my experience is surprisingly good. Thx to all the good guys out there. All z miss I did so far, could be completed even with not-perfect builds. The “common sense” from the initial post + half decent communication seems to be far more important than perfect builds. My exp is that missions fail when ppl leave, go afk, DC ...


I run a pretty “HM unfriendly” Searing Flames Fire Nuke/ Burning build (fire skills only, Gl Less Eng, 2 enchantments + Intensity, 2 weapon sets: enchanting/ fight). And yes all my armor is dyed red ;-) I might change the build later when I have access to more PvE skills. However, that’s what I have for now and I also like the “role play aspect” of it. I am just not a fan of the Necro “look and feel”, but hey, that’s just me … and while Im on it, the Ele dance is pathetic.

Normally I can find a group within a few minutes. In yesterdays z miss “Thirsty River” we had 2 ppl (out of 6 I think) running “fire/ burn builds” (no EotN skills) and the miss still went through with no probs.
You will have to understand that many of the posters here play for 3+ years, some since the beta and one of the few things left is to build the most efficient builds.

Additionally PvE is not only easy but a couple of good players using good builds can mask most of the weakness of bad/inexperienced players.

Add a couple of E/Mo (or even plain good monks) an Imbagon and/or a warrior that know what they are doing and you can finish pretty much every area of this game running X Searing Flame nukers with 5 offensive skills and Intensity on the remaining spots

But that doesn't mean there aren't more powerful builds for Eles, even while running/playing a traditional Elementalist role.

For example, you could run a couple of earth wards in a fire build or some other support skills (once you get pve only skills it will most be these) making your character more of a team player.

Lets take your SF dude - which is quite an energy consuming skill.

Get Mind Blast that is quite a good energy engine. Pair it with Rodgorts Invocation and Liquid Flame, reasonable skills that will damage on par of SF. Add Meteor for some knockdown. Add There is Nothing to Fear (sunspear paragon skill) for some party heal and some damage reduction for a few seconds. Fire Attunement. Signet of return or some rez signet/sunspear signet. And you still have an optional for something like a heat or whatever.

The above build (with no GWEN pve skills), that is still inefficient compared to some stuff you can do these days, will provide some offense (that won't be that great against some HM targets) and provide some utility/party support, that is probably quite more interesting to a party than whatever SF nuker build some players run.

Actually what is important in here isn't the skills/builds but how players approach their builds - Elementalist and most other mid line casters SHOULD provide both OFFENSIVE presence and DEFENSIVE presence.

That is what most players fail to do/understand - they only want to play a uni-dimensional role, when it is doing more than one thing is better due to the game mechanics.

- Frontliners need offense and if they can provide disruption (interrupts, knocks, snares like they should Grasping Earth) or defense (shouts like SY!);

- Midliners need offense and defense - some damage skills, rezzes, some defense skills like wards, snares, disruption, hex/condition removal if they can afford it, etc;

- Backliners should provide heal and protection;

- There are also supporters like Orders/Minion masters/Spirit Spammers characters that should try to fit some of those midliner roles alongside their main role.

If your builds follow the above guidelines, you will be able to create decent builds regardless of any changes that may happen to skills - then it is just a question of choosing the best skills or the skills that are just ok and you like.

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein View Post
In a real situation, nobody that's got any form of manners are going to come into a PUG making rigorous demands on everyone. What a reasonable person will do is suggest improvements, asking them if they can change this skill for that skill, or if they want to do another job. Well then I got news for you. I just logged off from some pve, pugging uw with an abysmal group. I knew it would fail, but like mentioned earlier I'm in it for the fails&fun. Team setup: defy pain tank, shadowformnoob, noobranger, 2 spiritguys, 2 monks and me with a sin using daggers(gasp!).

Healer dc's early on and the other monk is running balths spirit, vital blessing and some other useless bonds, blood ritual and no heals. Still we make it till the ice king-quest where we wipe. A few leavers and the french(frenchies are so ftw..) leader accepts everything we can get. One being a pro shadowform guy. This guy immediately gets his knickers in a knot over the fact that I'm an a/w, surely that's a weird shadowform sin? After pinging my build he calls for a vote to have me kicked, which I am.

Morale of the story is run a wikibuild, ask for a vote for someone else on the team to get kicked so you appear pro or just ping a wikibuild when asked and load whatever else you want to mess around with.

Now I know that pug won't "succeed" despite their efforts to maximize the team setup but it bothers me that I'm not there to watch the fail when it happens. The higher your goals, the higher your fall.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild....
And now we have Thay. That was probably the smartest thing your former guild ever did. Yay for them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
Well then I got news for you. I just logged off from some pve, pugging uw with an abysmal group. I knew it would fail, but like mentioned earlier I'm in it for the fails&fun. Team setup: defy pain tank, shadowformnoob, noobranger, 2 spiritguys, 2 monks and me with a sin using daggers(gasp!).

Healer dc's early on and the other monk is running balths spirit, vital blessing and some other useless bonds, blood ritual and no heals. Still we make it till the ice king-quest where we wipe. A few leavers and the french(frenchies are so ftw..) leader accepts everything we can get. One being a pro shadowform guy. This guy immediately gets his knickers in a knot over the fact that I'm an a/w, surely that's a weird shadowform sin? After pinging my build he calls for a vote to have me kicked, which I am. So you joined a fail group. It's better to spend more time setting up than in the dungeon/UW/FOW. Thay Pugs with minion take forever and ever but we smash the dungeons and very often, the set up takes longer than the dungeon itself. We don't need to run everything the very best. I run Imbagon when Minions wants a 100lolz or something but we still make it through quickly.

The moral of the story is, if you don't want to fail then don't join a pug.

If you have a good guild/alliance to back you up or you have good heroes, you can probably clear it faster and safer. The problem with random PUGs is, you are taking a chance, even if the guy flashes a good wiki build in town, there is still no guarantee that he would not DC, go afk, go leeroy, or leave in the middle of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
Also a proverb to remember is "The chain is only as strong as the weakest link" That only applies if the links of the chain are all equal. That is not the case with a team setup where some roles are more important than others.

If you have setup the KEY positions in your team with trustworthy guild/alliance members, and gave the lesser roles to random pugs, then you have already reduced the risk of your team failing significantly. But that is not a typical pug.

maxxfury

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

[DVDF] Gp

Me/A

Quote:
ping a wikibuild when asked and load whatever else you want to mess around with. Thats actually worse than just not knowing your bar is bad....ive restarted a few zones with pugs due to some tool doin that...

monk pings crap bar* (mending bonder is win yah?)
monk is asked to change bar
monk changes and pings a solid enough woh bar
zone starts
monk is running his crap bar in zone
team resigns
monk gets kicked
monk swears at team cos he is better and has been monking since beta