Better PUGing by improving your build in 7 steps

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
Yes actually.
Savannah Heat, Searing Flames spam, Meteor Shower, Deep Freeze (+Maelstrom) etc.. - all threatening in HM and most are spammed in EotN.
These nukes can eat your henchmen alive unless you get some prots up or flag them apart. Individual humans, no matter how incompetent tend to be much more spread out than the AI and hence telling them to clump up into wards is a bit counter-productive.
And of all those skills only SF has a recharge low enough for it to be used more than once in a battle. The rest of the "nukes" as you call them should be drawn out by the frontliners.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
Vekk The what now? First, I don't bring heroes in PUGs, and second, they are utterly brainless when it comes to preprotting.

But they don't necessarily need to use it more than once per battle. Enemies have boosted damage, movement and casting time. They also have more than one skill, and those skills are going to hit hard in HM. Perhaps less so on the higher armour characters, but your squishier characters are going to feel it, and feel it hard, especially if it's from a boss. If they all ball up together vs. say, Korshek the Immolated in HM, whoever's keeping the red bars up is going to have a pretty hard time of it. How fast can you heal everyone before the next nuke comes in? Also, what happens if there's a few of them on your case?

Also, to quote another post of yours:

Quote:
Of course, it takes a bit of organization to manipulate aggro correctly. That is a teamwide job in GW, unlike other similar games, but it's usually too hard for PUGs to do it. That too, and of course you can expect someone not to notice the fact that s/he's in a ward and run straight out of it into an incoming attack - or, in the case of the Diamondshard Mist wards in Dragrimmar, "Why am I bleeding?"

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
It is not prejudice, it is already a well known FACT that primary rits make better spirit spammers than secondary rits and primary rits are abundant.

If you like to play the role of a spirit spammer, why not just play a primary rit? There is no need to be a E/Rt spirit spammer wannabe unless the person doesnt know how to play an Ele.
People play the role of SS because SS rits may not always be available. And The Josip has given proof that the difference is not that great between two very common SS builds we see in PUGs. "Massacre" as 10% is clearly an overstatement unless you can prove otherwise using common PUG builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Damage in HM comes to a great deal from melee enemies. While imbagons are great, especially with the somewhat unorganized way most PUGs play, warders do provide more potential for damage decrease - as long as everyone stays in the ward. Also, while the +100 armor from SY! is great, blocking/blind/blurred protects against armor-ignoring damage as well.
Still, with most PUGs, I'd go with an imbagon. I disagree with the statement that the +armor from wards are as good as 24/7 SY the one third reduction and heal of TNTF. It just doesn't seem likely.

There is no need for blocking, blind, blurred if there is ample Enfeebling blood which every necro and their mother and stepmother takes.

Then you also need to consider that nukes could rape your team as well inside wards (Not just damage wise in which HM damage is still felt through wards). KD from MS, burning from Searing/Tenai, interrupt from maelstrom.

Master Ketsu

Master Ketsu

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

middle of nowhere

Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]

R/

My policy is to kick anyone from a team if they think I want them to ping so I can "Steal their build". From my own personal experience anyone who honestly believes they have discovered something the rest of the community doesn't know by now in a game as old as Guild wars is going to be bad 99% of the time, and average the other 1%. A hero is better than an idiot like that.

glacialphoenix

glacialphoenix

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2008

Singapore

Royal Order of Flying Lemmings [ROFL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
My policy is to kick anyone from a team if they think I want them to ping so I can "Steal their build".
I like your policy.

I've never understood that mentality myself. I mean, if I actually wanted to steal your build, I wouldn't ask you to ping... I'd just watch you ingame to see which skills you used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori
There is no need for blocking, blind, blurred if there is ample Enfeebling blood which every necro and their mother and stepmother takes. I wish this was actually the case.

Of course, I also wish people had the common sense to run out of ROJ, but no. Which IMO is a pretty good reason against bringing anything more than maybe one ward in PUGs - they just won't notice it. If they don't notice ROJ right on them... they won't notice a ward.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Everybody has been saying that primary rits are abundant including yourself. Furthermore, "The Josip" was wrong to claim that the damage difference between a primary rit and a secondary rit is only 1% when other posters (e.g. "Arrogant Bastard" page 3 post #46 on this thread) on this thread has shown it to be about 10%. On top of that, "The Josip" totally ignored the additional tanking capabilities of spirits with higher level, armor, duration, armor of unfeeling, and spawning power from primary rits. His arguments were flawed from the start.

For a popular class like rits, EVEN if "The Jossip" is right that ERt SS is only 1% inferior (which it is not), it is going to be a hard sell for you to convince everyone why your ERt spirit spammer wannabe should be used instead of the other available primary rits spirit spammers out there. Why even lose the 1% when I dont need to? And even if there are no available primary rits, I would still prefer to bring a rit hero and micro her, considering both offense and defense advantages over the pug ERt.
Excuse me, misquoted Arrogant Bastard. Yes I was referring to the 10% difference that Arrogant Bastard had posted.

My argument is not why I would take this or that in my party. I agree with what you stated. I do however, disagree that a 10% is a "massacre" which it is not.


Quote: Originally Posted by glacialphoenix View Post
I wish this was actually the case.

Of course, I also wish people had the common sense to run out of ROJ, but no. Which IMO is a pretty good reason against bringing anything more than maybe one ward in PUGs - they just won't notice it. If they don't notice ROJ right on them... they won't notice a ward. If pugs don't notice wards, how would bringing even ONE useful? You basically have to run to them to place it on them to help them against AoE.

ShivaTwoDelta

ShivaTwoDelta

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2009

Europe

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Ketsu View Post
A hero is better than an idiot like that.
True, very true, but hero's also make the game extremely boring.

OP and I play GW for over 4 years together and we can easely complete most things if we both add 3 heros. On my ele I invested over 120K on runes alone for heros, lol. I know in most cases we'll do it fast and good with 6 heros, my friend being a warrior going in first and me with the caster heros staying at a safe distance. But like I said, after a few years, this gets boring and I long for teamplay. I want to feel part of a team of people who play with me. Especially when I'm monk. Nothing more boring than healing Koss.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
Then you also need to consider that nukes could rape your team as well inside wards (Not just damage wise in which HM damage is still felt through wards). KD from MS, burning from Searing/Tenai, interrupt from maelstrom. Any decent team should never let an enemy caster allow to complete the casting of Meteor Shower.
As for Searing Flame spamming Ruby Djinns, I'd dare to say that the ruby should be your primary target when engaging. For as far as I know the djinn groups are never assisted by a monk, so there you go.

What wards vs imba concerns. I don't get the anti wards attitude here. It's not just about casting a ward and stand in it like a zombie.
I could list a couple things that gonna make a para useless as well, but I'll save us the debate. No matter what you go with, if you have players with a brain, you'll make it either way.

bj91x

bj91x

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Step 3: Remove rez if you are a monk
I don't even intend to explain this one. I couldn't disagree with this more. When I'm playing with h/h, I don't bring a res skill. There's no need to. Things go as I planned pretty much every time and in case something goes wrong, my 3 heroes have res skills. However, when I PUG, I bring Rebirth if I don't need to use my 2ndary profession (with the exception of missions where running then rebirthing isn't much of an option). This is because PUG is unpredictable and I don't know if we're going to encounter a wipe situation.

Healers don't need 8 skills to heal effectively, just like DPS players don't need 8 skills to DPS effectively. Being a veteran, I know ahead of time when things will go sour. Bringing Rebirth makes it that much easier to res my teammates when I'm one of the only players to have run to safety preventing a full wipe. I'm I'm a healer, I'm usually the farthest from danger and it's much easier to run to safety since I'm the farthest from the enemies.

My heroes follow a similar rule. All my non-healer heroes bring res skills that can be used in battle. All my healers bring Rebirth. This is because of the reason I stated above; Healers are the farthest from the enemies and the easiest to run to prevent full wipe when things go bad.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj91x View Post
I couldn't disagree with this more. When I'm playing with h/h, I don't bring a res skill. There's no need to. Things go as I planned pretty much every time and in case something goes wrong, my 3 heroes have res skills. However, when I PUG, I bring Rebirth if I don't need to use my 2ndary profession (with the exception of missions where running then rebirthing isn't much of an option). This is because PUG is unpredictable and I don't know if we're going to encounter a wipe situation. You completely agree, but you bring Rebirth?

This is the point the OP is making. I'm going to assume you're a monk, or your post would be confusing and pointless. A physical or Rit will generally be able to get a Res on their bar without making the team's survivability suffer.

Rebirth is the worst resurrection skill in the game, due to the depletion of energy after casting; and long casting time anyway. Resurrect is also terrible because you return with only 25% health and no energy to keep safe.
[Renew Life, Restore life, Resurrection Chant, Flesh of My Flesh, signet of return] These would be the most optimal on a PUG team; a warrior can fit them in, a paragon or Ritualist. Plenty of space not to need one on a monk.

glacialphoenix

glacialphoenix

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2008

Singapore

Royal Order of Flying Lemmings [ROFL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
You completely agree, but you bring Rebirth? I think he said he disagreed.

That being said, Rebirth is a last-ditch resort, and he's got a point in that PUGs are unpredictable and can have near-wipe situations. If the other monk's got UA, fine. If the physicals or the ritualists actually bother to bring a flippin' rez, fine. All too frequently, they don't; or sometimes, they DO bring a rez and then proceed to aggro the hell out of everything. If only the two monks are left standing, there's a bunch of very angry monsters near the corpses, and one of them is running Resurrection Chant and the other Rebirth, I'd be thankful that the other one brought Rebirth, because of the fact that it teleports the guy to you.

Of course, if we're talking about in-battle rezzes, Rebirth is the single worst idea ever.

It works as a last-ditch resort to save your party from dying in the middle of a long mission; it shouldn't have to work as more than that. And I guess it depends on how much you expect someone in your group to die in an annoyingly hard-to-reach place.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTwoDelta
View Post
Any decent team should never let an enemy caster allow to complete the casting of Meteor Shower.
As for Searing Flame spamming Ruby Djinns, I'd dare to say that the ruby should be your primary target when engaging. For as far as I know the djinn groups are never assisted by a monk, so there you go. 1. Pretty sure there's some mixed Djinn/Summit mobs in Forgewight where the Djinn have monk backup. For that matter, they're often paired with Flowstone Elementals, whose Savannah Heat is even more of a threat for H+H/stupid people.

2. There's a number of places in UW and Perdition rock where the number of monsters with Meteor Shower is going to exceed the number of interrupts your team can reasonably carry. Same is true for Searing Flames (Blisterbark's mob), Deep Freeze (multiple places, Talus Chute HM probably has the most in 1 spot), and most other "heavy nukes" as well. While you should be disrupting these skills when you can, you need to accept that you will get hit with them sometimes, and plan accordingly.

---

Regarding rebirth:

This is a skill of very limited usefulness. You can use it for near-wipe recovery if someone managed to run away, and the team's bodies are camped by monsters. However, rez scroll now offers the same functionality. How often are you going to be the last person standing, and find your teammates camped badly enough you need the 1.2 aggro radius teleport, but not so badly that a 1.0 aggro radius teleport won't do?
(I should probably also add that I used to use it for a battle rez on a necro (with a low energy set) waaay back in Prophecies back when none of the other rezzes would pop you up "ready to go," so the safety of the teleport outweighed the bad numbers upon rez.)

----

Regarding Spirit Spam:

Primary Ritualists are just better. This should be a no-brainer. Runes mean more health/armor/damage on the spirits. Spawning means more health on the spirits and some available skills that synergize with spirits. The only other class whose primary offers anything directly synergistic with spirits is Ranger. Ele and Necro can run more energy-intensive builds, but spirit spam generally doesn't require more energy than Siphon provides.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj91x View Post
I couldn't disagree with this more. When I'm playing with h/h, I don't bring a res skill. There's no need to. Things go as I planned pretty much every time and in case something goes wrong, my 3 heroes have res skills. However, when I PUG, I bring Rebirth if I don't need to use my 2ndary profession (with the exception of missions where running then rebirthing isn't much of an option). This is because PUG is unpredictable and I don't know if we're going to encounter a wipe situation.

Healers don't need 8 skills to heal effectively, just like DPS players don't need 8 skills to DPS effectively. Being a veteran, I know ahead of time when things will go sour. Bringing Rebirth makes it that much easier to res my teammates when I'm one of the only players to have run to safety preventing a full wipe. I'm I'm a healer, I'm usually the farthest from danger and it's much easier to run to safety since I'm the farthest from the enemies.

My heroes follow a similar rule. All my non-healer heroes bring res skills that can be used in battle. All my healers bring Rebirth. This is because of the reason I stated above; Healers are the farthest from the enemies and the easiest to run to prevent full wipe when things go bad.
Apparently I do need to explain step 3. Ok follow because this is a quick explanation.There are three main rez situations: combat, post-combat, and near-wipe recovery. Healers should not combat rez because if they stop healing, people die. Thus, combat rez should be handled by non-healers. Thus, non-healers bring rez, which means that post-combat rez could be handled by non-healers, as well. So the healer doesn't need a rez for those two situations. Which leaves NWR. If the healer is the only one left alive, he should rez... But on the other hand, near-wipes (and complete wipes too) usually happens because the healer died. Thus the only reason a healer should have a rez is if something that almost never happens, happen. That's like wearing shoes when you sleep just in case you'd sleepwalk.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Sure if you hate being rich. If I have to use a scroll everytime I PUG, I would be a lot poorer than I am since puggers die so often. Scrolls are an unnecessary gold sink. Besides scrolls would not help much if monsters are camping the bodies. 25%hp and 0 energy is not exactly fantastic either and works better if the bodies clump together.

@Zahr: Stop trolling. You pretend you don't have a rez unless you're sure that everyone else who has one has already used theirs or is dead.

And scrolls do help if monsters are camping the bodies. Much better than Rebirth since it's instant and everyone revives at the same time. Sure in the process of running away, probably 50% of them die again but in such a short time that no additional DP is present and some people do manage to survive in the massacre. It might call for another scroll but hopefully it won't. In pugs, the group normally kicks the bucket in the same area.

If you don't want to waste money then consider spending that extra minute to make sure the pug are running rez and aren't complete morons.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
You pretend you don't have a rez unless you're sure that everyone else who has one has already used theirs or is dead.
Tried that before, and you would be surprised how many PUG players do not actually bring a res. Maybe they have a res scroll but they are just not telling so that others would use theirs, OR they just dont want to invest their scrolls in a team that sucks.

Quote:
And scrolls do help if monsters are camping the bodies. Much better than Rebirth since it's instant and everyone revives at the same time. Sure in the process of running away, probably 50% of them die again but in such a short time that no additional DP is present and some people do manage to survive in the massacre. It might call for another scroll but hopefully it won't. In pugs, the group normally kicks the bucket in the same area. Normally if the team dies except for me. I would still prefer rebirth because reviving with scrolls within monster aggro will risk additional DP to the team since scrolls only res at 25%hp and 0% energy. In HM accumulating DP too fast, can make the team useless since monster damage is so great.

Sacrificing scrolls after scrolls, without DP removal, would just suck. Besides if your PUG team plainly consists of mostly morons and leeroys all over the place, is it really worth investing all your consummables just to force them through the mission? When I could have just quit the team in town, and if no other good teams were around, do it easily with my 2 accounts and 6 heroes?

Quote:
If you don't want to waste money then consider spending that extra minute to make sure the pug are running rez and aren't complete morons. Some times the only guys with the res are among the dead. There is no way you can tell if a pug member knows how to pull or leeroys all over the place, unless you know the guy before. Even if they copy a pvx build, that doesn't necessarily imply that they understand PvE 101 and these are the people are investing your cons on. Also, if the team dies in a pug situation, chances are higher that people you have used your res scroll on, may give up and just leave the game.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Tried that before, and you would be surprised how many PUG players do not actually bring a res. Maybe they have a res scroll but they are just not telling so that others would use theirs, OR they just dont want to invest their scrolls in a team that sucks.
It is not surprising because I pug often and I know that the usual pug does not usually have more than 4 copies of rez. If they didn't want to invest scrolls in a team that sucks then they should have considered H&H. Pugging comes with risk and benefits and if you want to reap those benefits, then you should also be prepared to face those risks as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post Normally if the team dies except for me. I would still prefer rebirth because reviving with scrolls within monster aggro will risk additional DP to the team since scrolls only res at 25%hp and 0% energy. In HM accumulating DP too fast, can make the team useless since monster damage is so great.
I'm not understanding your argument here. Rezzing with Rebirth is the same as using a Scroll except it takes 5 seconds and rapes your energy and skills. You don't have to revive everyone with a single scroll; you can just rez one or two person and not get aggro.

If you choose to revive more than one person at a time and pray for a mass exodus with minimal casualties, I want to point out that the newly rez people have 5 seconds to die without incurring additional DP. If you are likely to die, you're probably going to die in those 5 seconds anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Sacrificing scrolls after scrolls, without DP removal, would just suck. Besides if your PUG team plainly consists of mostly morons and leeroys all over the place, is it really worth investing all your consummables just to force them through the mission? When I could have just quit the team in town, and if no other good teams were around, do it easily with my 2 accounts and 6 heroes? Saccing scrolls after scrolls because you don't have DP removal on your part means you're unprepared or just stupid for only preparing for one part of a scenario where there are other parts that should be addressed.

If you don't think the pug are worth the consum then the options are simple. 1) dont pug or 2) dont use the consum. When mentioning H&H, the vast majority of PvE can be H&H, so you only pug when you want human interaction. If you don't want to deal with pugs then by all means, don't. You'll also save yourself mucho dinero in addition to unneeded grievance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Some times the only guys with the res are among the dead. There is no way you can tell if a pug member knows how to pull or leeroys all over the place, unless you know the guy before. Even if they copy a pvx build, that doesn't necessarily imply that they understand PvE 101 and these are the people are investing your cons on. Also, if the team dies in a pug situation, chances are higher that people you have used your res scroll on, may give up and just leave the game. Yes sometimes those with rez are often among the dead, but since they had rez in the first place, they should have kept in mind how important it was for them to stay alive in the first place.

You can't always tell how a pug member will perform, but with experience, there are a few tics that clue you off subconciously. One way you can always be sure how good a pull is if you do it yourself. If you are excellent at pulling, then do the team a favor and do so. If you suck, then do the team a favor and don't attempt.

Being supportive of your pug fosters a better attitude among the group. Even if the entire team is pretty horrible, people can still enjoy the challenge and each other's company. Encouragement will also help keep people from leaving.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
I'm not understanding your argument here. Rezzing with Rebirth is the same as using a Scroll except it takes 5 seconds and rapes your energy and skills. You don't have to revive everyone with a single scroll; you can just rez one or two person and not get aggro.
It doesn't matter if Rebirth brings your energy to zero because if you are smart, you only use it outside of aggro range. It is not meant to be used during combat. Scroll is only shout range and doesn't teleport the guy to you so when you revive them with 25%hp and 0e within monster aggro, they die. That is a big difference.

Quote:
Saccing scrolls after scrolls because you don't have DP removal on your part means you're unprepared or just stupid for only preparing for one part of a scenario where there are other parts that should be addressed. Only a moron would invest all his cons on a failed team. If the team just cant work together, it is better to just leave and find another team that can.

Quote:
You can't always tell how a pug member will perform, but with experience, there are a few tics that clue you off subconciously. One way you can always be sure how good a pull is if you do it yourself. And by the time you get to see their skills (or lack of them), it is already too late because you have already entered the game with them and invested time.

Quote:
Being supportive of your pug fosters a better attitude among the group. Even if the entire team is pretty horrible, people can still enjoy the challenge and each other's company. Encouragement will also help keep people from leaving. Everytime someone tries to encourage the team people start to leave. You should know when to give up than keep throwing cons away stupidly. Even if you dont give up, others in the team would see how bad it is and start to leave also. Doesn't matter if you have wasted cons on the mission or not.

The Josip

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

The thing is, a lot of us don't feel like bothering anymore with team organization. It's tedious sometimes and lasts too long. Sometimes we just want to jump into a group, press "1" and go. That is, if group looks decent enough (when I see WMo I still ragequit).

Sometimes organizing a PuG group feels more like babysitting than actually playing the game and having fun. When I join a PuG group I should be able to expect some decent skillbar that can aid the team in achieving the goal, and some decent playing skill because it's HM after all so person finished the campaign (unless bought account that is).


This is for general HM areas, of course that better organization should be sought for some more difficult ones.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
It doesn't matter if Rebirth brings your energy to zero because if you are smart, you only use it outside of aggro range. It is not meant to be used during combat. Scroll is only shout range and doesn't teleport the guy to you so when you revive them with 25%hp and 0e within monster aggro, they die. That is a big difference.
Scrolls teleport you to your location. I doubt the shout vs the spell range is all that different but one thing that is noticeable? No energy and 5 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post Only a moron would invest all his cons on a failed team. If the team just cant work together, it is better to just leave and find another team that can.
Or if you're really smart and don't want to deal with this, you should have went with friends/guildies or H&H.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
View Post
Everytime someone tries to encourage the team people start to leave. You should know when to give up than keep throwing cons away stupidly. Even if you dont give up, others in the team would see how bad it is and start to leave also. Doesn't matter if you have wasted cons on the mission or not. Whenever there is nonsarcastic encouragement, I find the opposite to be true. This is subjective and there is no point to argue this. If they leave, then that just shows how replaceable pugs are with H&Hs but for some reason they CHOSE to pug. They took the risk of pugging and therefore need to take all in all consequences of it.

Again, that doesn't matter if you are not in combat and there are no monsters within aggro range. Even if you use scrolls, your dead team mates also res with 0 energy. So take the waiting time to think back what your team did wrong.

Quote:
I have never said it deters me from pugging.

Quote:
Or if you're really smart and don't want to deal with this, you should have went with friends/guildies or H&H. Where is the drama if you have free time to burn?

Quote:
Spending time is essentially spending money. I see little difference so if you are going to pug, be ready to invest. I'm not saying that you should stick around terribad people or waste money on them but if you're not going to go a bit out of your way, then save everyone some grief and don't pug. I PUG not because I have no other choices to clear that mission. I pug to watch the drama and it is not fun to throw cons at people who need to learn the hard way, so I pug without cons and tried to give advice if they are willing to listen. If I run out of time and all pugs failed, I would simply take my heroes and clear it once and for all. I dont see why you HAVE TO bring cons when you pug. Throwing power stones at your pug would not make them any better players.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Again, that doesn't matter if you are not in combat and there are no monsters within aggro range. Even if you use scrolls, your dead team mates also res with 0 energy. So take the waiting time to think back what your team did wrong.
5 seconds saved with your energy intact ensure that you're not a sitting duck. And if you're not in aggro range then why does it even matter what rez you are using?

And why wait if you're willing to use a scroll? The reasons why a wipe occurs can be figured out by the time there is a single rebirth anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
I PUG not because I have no other choices to clear that mission. I pug to watch the drama and it is not fun to throw cons at people who need to learn the hard way, so I pug without cons and tried to give advice if they are willing to listen. If I run out of time and all pugs failed, I would simply take my heroes and clear it once and for all. I dont see why you HAVE TO bring cons when you pug. Throwing power stones at your pug would not make them any better players. Where are you getting all these ideas that I never mentioned?

I never stated that you have no other choice. If you read my earlier posts I said that pugging is a choice. If you pug to watch the "drama," then surely leeroying retards and inflated egos must in some way not be terrible enough to deter you from pugging?

I never stated you HAVE to bring cons, it's because you choose to do so just like you choose to pug. If you are comparing Rebirth v. Scrolls, there is no "lesson" or advantage the skill has over scrolls other than money. If you're not willing to pay up for pugs then deal with the pug as it is or just leave. But if you can't deal with the pug from the beginning, just stick with your H&H. If you want drama, then prepare to deal with retards.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori View Post
5 seconds saved with your energy intact ensure that you're not a sitting duck. And if you're not in aggro range then why does it even matter what rez you are using?

And why wait if you're willing to use a scroll? The reasons why a wipe occurs can be figured out by the time there is a single rebirth anyway.
It matters at what range you are using it and cons only promotes a lazy play style.

Quote: I never stated that you have no other choice. If you read my earlier posts I said that pugging is a choice. If you pug to watch the "drama," then surely leeroying retards and inflated egos must in some way not be terrible enough to deter you from pugging?
I never stated you HAVE to bring cons, it's because you choose to do so just like you choose to pug. No, just because you decide to pug doesn't necessarily mean you have to (or choose to) bring cons.

Quote:
If you are comparing Rebirth v. Scrolls, there is no "lesson" or advantage the skill has over scrolls other than money. If you're not willing to pay up for pugs then deal with the pug as it is or just leave. But if you can't deal with the pug from the beginning, just stick with your H&H. If you want drama, then prepare to deal with retards. Where did I say I can't deal with pugs? I just am just disagreeing with you that you should bring cons to pugs. If the pug is set to fail, then let them fail. That way people can learn from their mistakes instead of covering it up with cons.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
No, just because you decide to pug doesn't necessarily mean you have to (or choose to) bring cons.
Precisely my point. It's all optional. Cons, Pugs, all of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Where did I say I can't deal with pugs? I just am just disagreeing with you that you should bring cons to pugs. If the pug is set to fail, then let them fail. That way people can learn from their mistakes instead of covering it up with cons. I never said you can't deal with pugs. But you imply that you don't want to because of bad actions or people.

I never state that you should bring cons but it does help and the reasoning is the same: if your going to invest time in a pug, you might as well invest money because its the same thing. And it can be a better option if you want to leave skills out of your bar but need rez, ias, ect.

The overwhelming power of PvE skills make it so that people don't need to learn from their mistakes. Even without consets.