Botters in PvP (Preventive actions for RBR)

Do not post links to outside websites containing bots. Do not post names of websites containing bots. Blur out all names, including guild tags, in any pictures posted. Thank you.

EDIT: Before you read anything, I ADMIT I post this out of personal reasons. I don't care all that much about "the general community". I care about the fact that I'm getting outplayed by bots, and getting rewards stolen by it. Despite me having acces to certain of these bots doesn't mean I want to use them. I want to earn rewards (Be it get 1st in snowball AT's, or win a mini greased lightning) using MY SKILL, and being able to tell to friends: "I won this because I'm good at "xx" thing". Right now, that is being denied by the existence of bots.

SECOND EDIT: And can we please stop the "Bots don't exist because I got a 480K time without using a bot". Just because you can interrupt a 1/4 second spell, doesn't mean the interrupt bot is a hoax. Given, some people ARE more gifted than others in certain aspects of life (Or Guild Wars in this case). But when the same "elite"-few seem to win prizes with scores FAR ABOVE those of average, or even top players, at a constent rates, this IS suspicious.

If you still believe some people are so good at RBR they can consistently produce 480K+ scores, then you should also concider the possibility that the interrupt bot does NOT exist, and some people are capable of reflexing 1/4 second spells 24/7 on multiple targets.

Dear Regina/Gaile,

I kindly ask you to take preventive actions against botters in Rollerbeetle Racing Arenas this year. I think every acount in top 100, or atleast the ones getting reported should be taken more seriously than they have been at the past 3 years.

Right now, Anet is still employing the Ostrich technique in regards to high-quality bots (Not some Auto-it/hotkey scripts), either not giving out enough information regarding this issue, or simply ignoring it all together.

People are using BOTS to FARM PVP REWARDS, how is this not a serious issue? Comming into close contact with ex-members of GWLP, I have a certain knowledge on what bots exist, and how they work.

The interrupt bot, as of recent widely known, is the prime example. I knew about it's existence for over 2 years now, yet people laughed those claims away... How can you expect people to take this serious, if you yourself don't even take it serious?! People are facing interrupt bots every day, but they don't report for the obvious reason they "believe" there is no such thing as interrupt bots, and even if they do, they see the same people still using those bots weeks later. (No actions are getting taken)

The same can be said for Snowball Arenas and Rollerbeetle racing. For 3 years now, people have been botting those, yet never have actions been taken. Some people have earned over 10 Mini rollerbeetles, well over 20 stacks of zkeys, yet no actions are being taken.

If I was allowed to post links here, or even direct download links, I could send the links to either said programs, or the pages in which those programs are for sale/download.

I have thouroughy explained the Snowball Arena bot on Gaile's wiki page, yet no reply or action has been taken.

But it's not too late. I don't even want the people using those bots getting banned, I don't care about them. All I want this year, is a fair chance at getting a mini-rollerbeetle... With the Dragon Festival incomming (And also RBR if I'm not mistaken), I think me, and everyone, should get a fair chance at getting a high-priced reward.

(I came in 105th or something last year, I got kicked out of top 100 in the last 2 hours of the event)

All I want you (Anet) to do is 2 things:

-Acknowledge the existence of said bots, just so people can actually use the /report proporly. Reportng only backfires if you're the only one doing it...

-Take this issue seriously. Again, PvP rewards are GETTING FARMED BY BOTS. This isn't some PvE farmbot, where there are no direct victims, this is "stealing" rewards from other legit players...

And as a final note I would like to say:

If no reply is being made (Both on wiki, here or from Guild Wars), I WILL make said bots public. The interrupt bot is already publicly available, but that's only the start. If you guys don't care, I don't care either, and every PvP'er will be abusing those bots...

And a quick list of bots who I know for a fact exists due to personal experience or simply having the download link/page:

-Interrupt bot (Another version, which allows multiple bar set-ups, as well as more complicated actions -Glyph of Essence Diversion "interrupting" eg)
-Pick-Up bot (comonly used in Snowball arenas by multiple guilds)
-Dodge bot (As the above, usually is integrated in the pick-up bot)
-Rollerbeetle bot (Multiple version, some use click to move -which works through packet pinging-, others have "flawless" pre-recorded routes, and the bot optimizes strafing/corner cutting)
-Weapon swapping bot (This will allow you to set parameters for certain bars, and the bot will then weapon swap for you. I have seen this in action in high-end GvG already, I won't call out names)

These are existing bots, which see use every day. There also is some other projects which are not within my grasp, or simply kept low by that community themselves.

Thanks alot to JR for keeping this thread clean, and giving it a second chance, appreciated.

DId you email this to regina/gaile? If you email to them you can include any links....

I can only comment about RBR in regards to botting.

Two things I would like to point out here to the OP, firstly the Dragon Festival RBR top 100 do not get a reward, its just for having fun and getting a top time.

Secondly, botting in RBR is probably the worst way of getting into the top 100, I can tell you from personal experience that the top 100 in the Canthan New year will be extremelly competitive and there is no bot in my opinion that can anticapate the various variables required to get a top 100 time. I know nobody including myself that has ever or will ever use something as overrated as a bot to get a top time.

Fact is a bot can not match the human factor in regards to the various changes and adjustments required to get into the top 100. Even if there is a bot in existence (which I find quite sad) that can get a top 100 time, the chances of it achieving this goal is extremelly unlikely considering all the variables required to do so within a race.

Pol

You know you can pm people, right? They much prefer communication via the wiki as well.

If u actually read the post, you would have seen that he posted it on wiki aswell.

Also I dont care anymore about people using bots. The game is allready too dead to even put a minute work in it. But I would like to test the RBR bot in the name of science that it actually works and exists. But after all, it is retarded that these bots are still around, since many people have known their existence for a long time. (Especially the interrupt bot). And it isnt that hard to make bots not functioning , it is just that Anet never cared enough.

Conclusion: I agree with the OP and gimme rollerbeetle bot.

You know how you win a beetle, Borat?

Play better.

The top times are generated legitimately. If I can throw up a 484 without cheating using a legacy rig and a garbage connection, so can you.

There's a concept called the scientific method that you should look into. Experiment. Try things. Find a half second here and a half second there. It adds up.

I find your whining appallingly entitled. Winning in HA does not mean that you have the skill to win a beetle. Quit blaming others and tossing unfounded accusations around.

I'm not denying that there appear to be bots out there in GvG. I'm not convinced on Snowball Arena. I've obsed several matches that others indicated were suspicious and saw nothing that could not be explained by positioning and reflexes. As for RBR - it wouldn't help. If you want a time, you need a clean run. No bot could defend adequately.

I already emailed Gaile, but my email is getting ignored due to a previous issue I had with support. (I was persistant about my innocence in a perm ban, yet they refused to hear my story)

I made a nice little thread on her wiki page aswell...

In reply to the "players are better than bots". I can see where you're comming from, but you need to understand what bots are capable of doing. In RBR, it comes down to getting a flawless run. If your run isn't flawless, there is no point in trying. So there is NO reason for your bot to anticipate on anything. On top of that, the magic about "playing through code" is that the impossible becomes possible. It IS possible to detect incomming KD's (Spit rocks, and to a certain extend that Rollerbeetle Blast), tough I don't know the exact know-how of this. The dodge bot works in a similar way.

So there is no reason for the bot to anticipate anything. All it needs to do is have a good start, with no kd's, and from there on, just play the same map over and over again. (The map doesn't change, there is no variables -So I don't know what you're talking about)
The start is different, yet, but this is nothing a bot couldn't solve. For starters, it can check the color, and pick the according path for each color. I can also use in-game coordinates (Each tile has a coordinate) to position itself, and calculate the optimal route.

All this SOUNDS complicated, but I can be created with no more than 200-300 lines of code. (In C++, C#, you name it)

Same for the boxes. If it DOESN'T get Super RB, there is no point in continuing any further in the first place, so there is not point in "coding" "what if you don't get xx power-up at XX box", as you only get top times with certain power-ups.

I never said this bot will get you a 480K time every time you go in, I'm saying this bot will perform FLAWLESS PLAY. (Cutting corners perfectly, etc) And then the player only has to worry about going in often enough to get a couple of good runs. (No kd's, and good power ups)

I myself am capable of 475k+ times (Which is how I got into top 100 last year), if I perfect my corner cutting, and managed to get a ping below 200, I could probably cut another second or 4-5. But I simply can't compete with a bot.

Just like the interrupt bot: A player can interrupt a 1/4s spell once, maybe twice, but in the long run, the bot is always going to produce more and better results...

I made a post on her feedback page.

Will any of them be making an appearance in this thread to back up your claims?

Borat, we MAKE clean runs happen. After about the first four hours, people stop being incompetent and you have to use Shield properly to get clean runs.

When to Shield varies with opponent behavior. A bot can't handle that.

475+ won't get it done. That's your problem. You're going to need 481+ this year.

It isn't just corner cutting. You need to change where you're using speed boosts if you're giving away that much time.

I am not saying it isint possible to create a bot in RBR all I am saying is it doesent stand a chance against the top 100 RBR racers during the Canthan New Year since there is a reward involved and certainly not the top 10. I still firmly believe that a bot has practically no chance of getting into the top 100 in this years RBR event.

Last year the cut off point in the top 100 was about what 480? So in short its unlikely.

Pol

PS: Martin you Borat fan

I played with Yuris a couple of time last year. I print screened his exact move. At one point, I was even able to chase him down till the very end of the map. I print screened his EXACT locations of using dash. Aside from the fact that his strafing IS flawless, it's also EXACTLY the same every time I faced him. There was no, and I mean NO variation in his play whatsover. (So this either means 2 things: He's botting, or he's really using the most optimal route)

I copied his exact moves, and I got a 478K time (I think that was my record last year). I KNOW I could still improve my strafing a little bit, but my dash/ram usage is 100% dead on perfect.

Propagating this isn't a good idea, no matter who already knows about it.

I also used this video as training material, and this video also perfectly explains my point. Look at this video, and tell me that rollerbeetle behaviour isn't botlike. Look at him cut corners, and PERFECTLY end every corner (He doesn't need to adjust his stearing whatsoever after he leaves the corner). If you watch formula 1 drivers, you see the cut corners perfectly, but they still need to adjust their "route" as they leave the corner a little bit, because it's impossible to make get the perfect angle (°) every time you leave a corner. This rollerbeetle has the perfect angle at ALL times. Not once does he need to adjust his angle by the slightest bit...

Again, this CAN be human behaviour if it happens once. Maybe twice, but definatly not every time you go in. (Think about it, the pressing of your turning keys (left and right) would have to be timed on the millisecond EVERY CORNER over and over again)

He, and those other top 100 players, ALWAYS manage to get FLAWLESS strafes (every time), and ALL happen to be in the same guild (The ony your in), and you expect this NOT to be suspicious?

Or is it just coincidence that ALL top rollerbeetlers are in the same guild, and seem to be the ONLY ONES who are capable of achieving such flawless play over and over again, yet have not made any real achievements outside of areas which I know bots exist for?

@ Flubber, I can have one of the creators of said bots come here and explain/proof their existence, tough I don't see the need.
1) It is without his knowledge I'm posting this here. He probably would be mad I'm publicly annoucing the existence of bots he spend a fair amount of time in creating.
2) What's the point? All I'm asking is that Anet keeps an extra eye out for RBR this year, if only the top 100 scores.

I think you will find that the top 10 RBR racers baring one or two come from various guilds. I also know Yuri and he is just a very good racer who knows what and when to strafe, ram and dash when appropriate.

Pol

If you don't see the need, you shouldn't be making the claims.

why would he care if he's an ex-member of said guild? is he botting himself? after all it can be done with only 200-300 lines of code. right?

The point is...well, to back up YOUR claims and to look less like a.....whiner.

I got 480k without botting last year... just copying that youtube video.

I was more pointing out the real reason you're posted here, rather than making a suggestion.

First of all, not all of the top rollerbeetle players are in [dth]. Second, people congregated here after they got good at RBR, primarily for the Snowball ATs. Believe it or not, there isn't a lot of information trading about RBR going on. We swap info, but everyone holds something back. We all want to be the best.

The reason that most of us haven't "made any real achievements" is that we're a bunch of old-timers. Very few of us still play heavily or regularly, outside of events. There's lots of top 100 experience...from back in the day when that meant something.

You see consistency because we've done a lot more runs than you. But that consistency varies across players. I don't do things exactly the way Yuri, Pol, Lain, Armina or Shayne does them. There's general agreement on the first 45 seconds or so. After that the runs differ.

Good example of the difference: why are you strafing? I don't touch Q or E...

If you're only posting 478s, your Dash and Ram usage isn't 100% perfect. It really is that simple. The tolerances are around 1/4 of a second in some places.

I don't want to/need to back up my claims. I KNOW they exist, and regardless of the community knowing it now, I want to bring this to Anet's attention. They have access to the input logs, I don't. I want them to acknowledge people have been using dodge/pickup bots in snowball.

I want them to, this year, check the people who get top times. Even tough it will not be easy. (Again, these aren't some auto-it script bots who RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up every fifth second, these are intelligent bots DESIGNED to mimic real player behaviour, albeit with relatively flawless play)

And as I said, I will make a bot public (useless at the moment anyways) if no offical replies will be made.

dodge/pick-up macros/bots are one thing. a racing bot is an actual accomplishment.

see above

it will get deleted as soon as you do. again, dodge/rupt/pickup macros/bots are one thing, a RBR bot, or someone you think is using one, is something I'd like to see in action.

Damnit people.

1. Borat is really whiney, we all know this.

2. He's whining about an issue that should make the entire playerbase absolutely furious at Anet.

Just to clarify for the naive...

Anet does NOT care

Edit: Sup Reverend I never said I wasn't whiny, this doesn't make my statements any less true, tough...

The only different a RBR bot with a pick-up bot would have is a pre-scripted route.

Only knowing the basics of C++/C# myself, I'm not going to use perfect code, but something like this seems very reasonable:

Let's assume the bot controls every movement and skill bar usage, BUT a player can override. If he does, the bot recalculates that override so that it won't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up on the next corner.

At all times, the bot checks if anyone is casting spit rocks/blast on him for shield. It also checks when it's adjecent to anyone else, and checks weather or not that person has used ram post-check point. (This is ALL doable through code) If he hasn't, then it gives U a warning that the person next to you could possibly KD you.

While color = (And then give the 6 possible options), do ... (The intial run from start to the first corner) Player can use Shield whenever he pleases.

When "corner is reached" -Use coordinates-, do ... (This is where all 6 routes converge)

When Moral Boost (Or check point, whatever it's called) is true, Use dash/ram (forgot which one you use after the first checkpoint). At the same time, it strafes to the right (As close to the wall as possible)

And thus the code continues... I never said it would be easy, but this and hard are 2 different things aswell. I can write the intire ru down here in pseudo-code, but it would serve no purpose. If you know and understand the posibilities of working through code, you would also know what's possible and whatsnot.

A RBRbot is one of the things that is... (The 200 lines code referred to the intital start. My best gues would be the intire bot is anywhere from 500 to 2000 lines of code)

It would make me furious if it really were an issue.

I still haven't seen the dodge/pickup claim proven.

I know that botting RBR isn't plausible.

The bots aren't going to get you gold capes. Champ points, yes. But that title was already wrecked by an uglier exploit. The problem with the interrupt bots is that they are predictable. This isn't an FPS; machine-like precision can be an exploitable disadvantage in a strategy game.

*sigh* Borat, pro tip: you have to precast the Shield to get it to resolve before the opponent's KD earned from a box. Good luck programming the right delay into your bot, as your ping varies.

Your ping will always be an issue, but this is just as true for a real player. If your ping is bad, you're not going to be able to rollerbeetle, and neither is a bot... That's common sense at a really basic level.

I never claimed bots can do "superhuman" things (well, aside from detecting incomming KD's), I'm just saying they can perform top notch play every millisecond of the match.

A bot can easily keep track of who exactly had a box, and what skills that person used. (For example, if 6 people get a box, it can monitor all those 6 people, and watch if they use Dlunge/Echo/SRB, if they have, the bot can "decheck" them from possible kd's, as they already used their "box skill".

My point merely being, it's not impossible, not even implausible one could bot RBR.

People shouldn't have to get "good enough" to beat a bot. Testing your skill against a computer is called PvE and is why heroes got nuked.

Again I say this to you, not disputing that a sufficient bot could be made to get a reasonably good time in RBR. It would also need to have the perfect circumstances to have the best chance of a good time.

I am simply saying it doesent stand a chance against the top 100 best times during the Canthan New year RBR.

Lets face it though, people wouldent even consider making a bot for RBR if it wasent for a fact there is a mini greased lightning for a reward.

Pol

You've missed the point.

My ping varies between about 150 and 350. I'm not posting a top overall time if it's north of about 260, sure. But there's still a 100 ms gap to deal with.

Use Harden Shell too early, and the KD doesn't get used until four seconds later. Use it too late, and you get KD'd.

You have to be aware of who will hit a box AND your own latency, and time Harden Shell accordingly, to avoid losing quality runs to Blast.

^

But your anticipation is just as good as the bot's. On top of that, I NEVER claimed this was an overnighter (a complete standalone). You, as a player, can always override the bot. If you 'feel' it's necessary to put up Shield, then do so...

But so would a real player?

Is it that hard to understand? I'm not saying this bot will get you 485K time EVEN IF you have all 5 people spamming all their kd's on you. I never claimed such a thing.

As a real player, you need LUCK and SKILL to get a top 100 time.
Luck here being: Not getting random KD'd, not having ping spikes and getting good boxes.
Skill here being: Cutting corners perfectly, and using your skills perfectly. (Timing of speed boosts)

A bot can take the whole concept of SKILL away, because it WILL cut corners perfectly (On code, unlike a player who relies on visual interpretation) and it WILL use speedboosts at optimal efficiency. (You said yourself, it depends on YOUR LOCATION, so you could pinpoint the coordinates, and when the bot reaches those, it will use his skills). On top of that, as mentioned before, a bot can seriously screw back the part Luck plays in RBR. It can tell you at any given time WHICH player forms a treath, and it renders enemy spit rocks useless. (Due to super human reflexes on shields)

On top of that, ping isn't even that much of an issue. Talking to one of the creators of previously mentioned bots, he says that ALL his bots take ping into concideration. (Low ping = more delay, less ping = more delay)

If you don't have anything to say for what ANet can do to combat this "problem" besides "taking the issue seriously", then there is nothing to discuss here.

So my question to you is:

If the above is true, why aren't you coding it rather than complaining about it?

If it confers that much of an advantage, go do it. Prove me wrong when I tell you it won't, and that I will thrash the bot the old fashioned way. The bot is only as good as its programmer. I will beat it for two reasons. First, I know the course better than the programmer of the bot. Second, I can defend myself more effectively than the bot. The only advantage the bot confers is the ability to do more runs than I can, since I have to sleep.

You are correct that luck and skill are required in any given run to post a top 100 time. Given a long enough series of runs, I'll get the requisite luck. Simple statistics.

So a guy who has a known reason to have a vendetta against a game posts unconfirmed crud trying to stir up antagonism against said game.

I'm with Martin. RBR is way more luck and skill based then people are giving it credit. You might be able to get a macro that could assist you in the timing of using Harden, but a full fledged bot would be just about impossible. How the heck would it even be able to chain the skills correctly since the skills are given out randomly from the crates? How would a bot know to echo super beetle, if it can't even tell what skills it has?

Basically what he said. Your coder already loses out just by not knowing the optimum route therefore will always fail getting a top 100 time. I still feel that my skill and my ability to interpret any given situation during a race gives me a vast advantage over any botter.

Pol

Look at my first edit in the OP.

I won't be able to script it myself, because I'm lacking 3 things:

-Insufficient C++ knowledge, tough the code itself isn't that complicated, it would require me to google half my code, and it'll ask more time than I'm willing to invest into it.
-Time + Willingness: I simply am too lazy to go trough the effort of making a bot.
-A private server: Obviously to test it... (I could always ask the GWLP guys, if they still have it)

And on top of that: I don't want the Mini-rollerbeetle reward, I want the ACHIEVEMENT. I want people to say: "Hey, this guy is good at rollerbeetle racing". As I said, I'm definatly not the best, but given a sufficient amount of runs, I can definatly squeeze out a 478-480K run, which is definatly top100 worthy if you don't count in all the bots..

Some players simply have RBR down to an exacting science. In exceptionally hard games such as Ghost N' Goblins you have to memorize every event and execute perfectly, the same is true with RBR to get a perfect run. Once you have the method refined it's just a matter of doing enough runs for the correct powerup sequence and syncing with other players that are going for top times, not to hose each other with KD's and cutoffs.

With all the hysteria over real botting lately I don't think it's really appropriate to be stirring the pot more.

Which would be true if we botted.

But we don't. It isn't necessary, and as you point out it would be very time consuming to design the bot. I wouldn't want to debug that code, and I'm totally unwilling to waste time during an event. The opportunity cost is too high. Instead of debugging a bot, I could be learning something new that enables me to shave a half second off my runs.

Since Krill brought up syncing: it's dumb. Really. Only one player in a match can have a good run due to rubberbanding. You don't want to be competing with other top players for the same line...unless you happen to have the best ping. But if that's the case, they don't want to be in your runs. You don't want to be in a tit-for-tat situation where you cover each other's runs, either. You can improve on that by playing alone if you don't suck at defending yourself.

I learned this in the first year when they forgot to close down an event. I ended up playing with five other top players for hours. No one could post a top 100 time, even with Echo-SRB. The lag was that fierce.

So bot in PvP (RBR) do exist. as many of you claim to be able to beat those bot. and you do know it exist, how else you gonna know you are better then the bot, right? and how the programmer of the bot does not know the route any better then you guys do?

This is going to be the same as sync Killed U Man, its a waste of time, ArenaNet do not care about things like this. things that they would much rather not invest time in.

If you send them more emails, and make a lot of noise on the wiki, they will put your post in the still being look at section and it will in times disappear from the face of wiki.

they will promise to look at it. trust me , but weather they do look at the problem is another issue.

I find syncing in RBR doesent work well enough for the effort of trying to do that with friends and no real point, since most of the top players actually use the same route at the start and more often then not just get in each others way.

Pol

The better bots won't be looking to make the most efficient use of what it's given. It will simply be hoping that it gets an Echo and Super out of its first few boxes and then gets to run with it. Trying to make a bot that puts out the absolute best usage of all skills considered at all times would be truly impossible.

lol...guildwars...lol...botdrama.
Gl in 2035 when they ll release gw2...ofc with bots.

Order gw2 now and you ll get free interruptbot in 2035...srs bsns model

Who said anything about syncing in the first place?

And I'm pretty sure even a child would realize that when you have 5 friends on your side, it'll make your run a whole lot easier. I'm not saying syncing is effective, or the opposite, I'm just saying that syncing will definatly not decrease your chances. I actually synced with a couple of guildies last year in Korean/Chinese districts. We often got 4-5/6 people teamed up in the same run. We would then see whoever got the best "first box", and whoever did was given carte blanch for the rest of the run. (The remaining ones would just kd the non-guildies so they couldn't KD your guildie)

But this still requires you to be good at RBR.

Secondly, I never said anything about wasting time during the event. Anyone who'se capable of packet sniffing/modyfing and writing complex bots who inject themselves in the process will also be able to create private servers.

GWLP, for example, had those to test on. The interrupt bot, for example, was extensively tested on private servers. To see wether or not it would be detectable, how well it can peform, if this, if that...