Botters in PvP (Preventive actions for RBR)

So i'm dumb and ignorant for not willing to test it because I don't wanna take the "small" risk that my account might get banned?

I guess reading the UA and actually following it is dumb and ignorant. Right.

I was replying to the "Server Client packet transfer for dummies" where he said this:
Wich is a variable, so I responded with giving him more variables. So I did not "invent" that new situation you mention, he did.


I think the average human response time is a little faster, somewhere around 150-200. And yeah the response time for a PC might be faster but you would also have to take into account the sending and recieving of packets to and from the server, and that might make a huge difference depending on where you, your opponent and the server is located.

A year ago I had an average of 14 hits per second with 2 fingers using 4 buttons. I actually calculated that after playing stepmania once based on the lenght of a song and the amount of steps in that song that I completed without missing a step.
My average might be higher when I would remove all the "pauses" in the song. Some parts of the song doesn't have steps.

You actually made the assumption that I didn't had the variables in mind when writing my first post in this thread. Yes I may not have been specific in which kinda setting but to me it's common sense to use it in the setting where the bot is currently beeing used, wich is a world-wide MMORPG or CORPG accessed from different countries wich obviously has all those variables I mentioned and more... so I didn't change the situation.

We both had a different situation in mind. Alltho I still think there are people that are faster then bots when using your setting (with no variables), that is my personal oppinion.

If there currently are no people that are faster then a bot on this planet then it won't take long before there are people that will be faster. People are competitive by nature and they adapt fast, very fast.

Sry about that, I thought it was because the rest of the post was aimed at me.

It would need to be able to think, unless you are going to supply that. Snowball Arena isn't a simple optimization function where if you execute a certain sequence of actions under fixed circumstances, you win. Neither is RBR, surprisingly enough. The other five players make things a bit more complicated. In both cases, there would have to be a human present to make the decisions that a bot could not.

I keep going on about this because you repeatedly miss the point. Strategy > pickup bot. We beat teams that macro. We don't macro or bot. That tends to confirm the theory.

Now, you repeatedly dispute this because you believe we bot. Not going to lie: it would be nice to have the sort of ninja pickup abiltiies a bot would provide. But I like my account too much to put it at risk.

Yes, I agree that anything that lets you focus on playing the match rather than playing your bar (and the opponent's bar) will improve overall outcomes. I've never disputed that. What's under dispute is the magnitude of the impact. You continue to believe that pickups are everything. You are in good company; as noted, I've had the positioning vs. pickups argument at least half a dozen times with other guild members.

But it just isn't true. Obs doesn't lie. Tactics fails lead to bad things that obtain 30 seconds to a minute later. This is easy to miss in a match, but hard to miss if you religiously use Obs and compare wins to losses. If you hadn't failed on tactics, pickups never would have been an issue. The matches always boil down to, "If So-and-So had done X instead of Y there, that guy never would have been at location Z later to scoop, and we'd have capped the gift that beat us". It's people running past obvious threats rather than dealing with them that kills you.

I'd buy it if you showed me the video. Without it, it's your word against his and the simplest explanation is that he doesn't cheat.

I've commented on this before. It's not dumb. It's smart. Daze sucks. If you get Dazed by a Hidden Rock in a mob, you can expect Snow Down The Shirt to follow. Once that happens, forget about getting that gift back yourself.

If you avoid the Daze, you can still use your Rock even if someone uses Snow Down the Shirt on you. Cooldowns rock.

You're just prejudiced. Your argument boils down to: a bunch of semi-retired top 100 and old-school R9 players can't possibly be good enough at the game to beat current top 100 players. That just isn't so. You're playing against people that have played Gamer events like you play HA. We've played more matches, we understand the strategy better, and we know tricks you don't.

Hey, there's just one issue.. you see.. when you manually pick up the present, you have to send the packet to the server as well, and even more! Guild Wars also has to process your input before deciding to send the packet to the server.

This bot hooks the packet receive function and within nanoseconds of the packet being received it already kicks off the send packet function inside Guild Wars.
It is materially impossible to be faster than that unless you have negative reflex time.

I don't mean to say your reasoning is dumb but in this case it kinda is.

Edit: Thinking about it, even if you had negative reflex time it would be impossible to be faster than the bot, because at the time you would press the key, the present wouldn't be on your client yet, hence the client wouldn't even send a pickup packet.

This could also mean that the player is specifically trying to conserve what he has by only interrupting the KD's

I agree with Martin the bigger picture no matter the argument is certain things will prevail like my poker analogy in before. I now realize if the bot has the best set there are other ways to end the game which boil down to tactics.

I can see how personalities in this thread can really be head-on.

The problem is that all they really care about is GW2, while completely ignoring the 0.1% of serious PvP competitors that actually get affected by this type of botting you're describing. After all, from a business perspective, why should they bother? They rather make the majority happy and have good sales on GW2. Sure, you can say that pissing off the current 0.1% will make them be less likely to buy GW2, or discourage others from buying it, but to be honest, those people they're pissing off will buy/not buy GW2 regardless of their current actions.

Even in this thread, you can see there are people oblivious to bots, there are people who defend bots, and there are people who are clueless to how big of an advantage bots can give. So why should Anet deal with it?

tl;dr version: people that they've pissing off by not dealing with PvP botters don't matter in their business model.

So why should anet deal with Botting?

Example:GvG MAT
Top guild uses a bot and wins gold
Do u not see any thing wrong with that?

Which is why those people are the most culpable for the problem: they're getting in the way of the botting issue being taken seriously. Chomsky would be ashamed of the way martin is using his intellect & position here.

So even if martin here admits that bots & scripts & add-ons exist and the game would be far better off without them in one small paragraph, he also spammed a novel's worth of theorycraft arguments on the pitfalls of bots and wants to discuss elite snowball & RBR strategies, until everyone stops reading his posts and assumes that there are 2 sides to an actual debate because people are having quotewars for 5 pages.

Then a fril comes in, and opens his first post by saying he has no idea what he's talking about but he chooses to side with martin, and then goes to bat with his 'team' for the next 4 pages.

And then either an overzealous or conflict-averse guru mod swoops in to lock the thread after one side spammed it enough to troll the people with a valid complaint into random rantings or repeating what was already said on page 1, or lock it based on some weak precedent because some other mod chose to close the last thread(s) about botting, or gives some excuse that because anet must already know about it, and they haven't done anything, then this is surely fruitless.

And we all lose because it lets anet ignore an actual problem.

quoted for emphasis. Martin, nobody (who matters) is saying that you're wrong about being able to deal with bots. the issue is you can't just dismiss the issue by saying "well nothing will be fixed anyways, so stop complaining about it."

At this point in the game and considering their business model, no, I don't see anything wrong with their response.

From a gamer and ethics perspective, yes, of course there's something wrong.

I think you're still misunderstanding my position.

- Bots are a problem
- They aren't going anywhere in the near future
- They can be beaten by good play that understands their capabilities and limitations
- Because they can be beaten by good play, they aren't the top priority issue in the game right now (getting the skills right takes precedence atm, IMO)

My charge is that many of you aren't being realistic about the problem. You're overreacting, and you aren't asking the question that you should be asking: what can I do about the problem independent of ANet's actions?

Do the bots make the game worse? Absolutely. Is the sky falling? No.

Tbh, both of those points depend on who's bot you're fighting. If you're fighting a top 100 bot (hopefully pre-mAT), then you can rest assured that it will hand your ass to you.

Well programmed bots are by far more proficient than players (even good ones). And, as others have mentioned, some players are using bots to help aid them as they play (by identifying the other teams skills, keeping track of their weapon sets, auto-calling, etc.).

So...these bots can't be disregarded so easily. Some of them are amazing, and I'd rather not see a day when the top 100 players in GW are bots.

Exactly. Martin is dreaming if he thinks good play is going to beat out a bot. The bot takes the optimal route and all the bot operator has to do is hope for the lucky box combo. Rinse and repeat a whole bunch of times until the lucky combo comes up. There is little wear and tear on the botter unlike the frazzled nerves and reflexes that a clean player will inevitably face after hours of play. IMO, bots are going to be a big part of the rollerbeetle tourney this year, because now the general player based has finally been informed about what is out there with these new bots. If some gold selling farming operations decide that a 500e mini is some quick money, they can easily stick a bot on 20, 50, 100 accounts. How many people out there have 10+ accounts? I would guess the number is in the thousands. It will not take many of them to take up the top 100 slots and players without bots are going to be competing for how many non-bot postions? 75? 50? 10? 5? none? Hell, last year I bought a beetle from a guy who won 6 or 7 of them. Some were his own accounts, some were guildies accounts that he logged into and did splitz with when he won. This year it is going to be worse because these bots are much better than ever before. Good luck if you dont run a bot, is all I can say, cuz I think you are hosed. I have exactly 134 gamer title points, and I do not plan on hitting 135.

Have my babies.

@Qaletaqa, I'm no longer going to argue my point. You choose to ignore some pretty compelling evidence presented against you, so there is obviously no way you're going to change your view. Either you're an idiot, a troll, or a botter, but Ima go with the first.

Since anet doesnt ban for botting, "you might aswell use it" is what the people think.
And they're right! I would probably bot the RBR if I had one, why not? What are you risking? Exactly!
I'ts not like I (or Anet) give a damn about RBR. Actual PvP is a different story, have a bit too much honor for that :P
There RA bot's i've seen go from G0 to G6, maybe they got banned eventually since I dont see them lately.

^

Which is the point I made last time. I hidden rocked up out of range of the radar, and sometimes I didn't, but ONLY the KD'ing snowball would get KD'd.

When an spell is getting cast on you, 2 things happen, 1 of which you can see, the other one you can't:

The visual part is the actual animation, or in this case the snowball flying towards you.

The "coded" part is the notification to the client, that a spell has been cast, aswell as all the proporties of said spell.

Through code, you can exactly tell wether or not a projectile: A) Is going to hit you, and B) Is going to KD you.

If the latter is true, all you have to do, just like the pick-up bot, is reply that package with another anyone saying: "Drop Bundle, Strafe left, Strafe Right, Pick Up Bundle".

I've seen certain botters strafe snowballs (On a regular occasion) from within nearby range, only because they can drop, strafe and pick up so fast.
But as I said, whoever coded the Drop N Dodge bot forgot to write a few lines of code to make sure it DOESN'T drop when surrounded by enemies.

And this is how I could tell the difference between human players and non human players. ONLY KD'ing snowballs with get DnD'd, but they ALWAYS would, regardless of situation of position of enemy team.
I've even seen some people who I assume are botting DnD within adjecent range of their avatar. (Instead of just capping it)

@Martin:

I gues we're done arguing then. You keep defending your flawed statement that a "player can beat a bot in PvP" when the intire point of the bot was TO BE BETTER. For someone who has NO top GvG experience, as of recent, or who'se guild is of no importance to PvP whatsoever, you "assume" way too many things.

For example your "build wars" arguements against the interrupt bot. But tell me, how does one build wars against interrupts? Run Mo/Me with Mantra of Conc/Resolve? (Lol) Mo/D with Pious concentration, not only having to spend an extra 5 energy per spell, but also rendering themselves useless against spikes. (No defence)

Or the thing that makes me even laugh more is the "faking". To all the inexperienced GvG'ers out there: Faking against a bot is NOT an option, for the obvious reason that: 1) the bot runs a bar of interrupts. You can fake as much as you want, you still won't get a spell off.
2) The bot usually has Pdrain/Leech and 5 energy interrupts. So for every 5 energy YOU waste, the bots waste 5 energy aswell, but he gains +-40 energy every 30 seconds on top of his 4 pips.
3) A Monk simply can't afford to fake every spell. If you do, watch how fast you collapse against even low pressure builds. (2 warriors and 6 defensive casters)

Some bots can NOT be beaten through casual play. Others can, but require top notch play. Interrupt bots and Snowball bots belong to the first category, the RBR bot belong to the second.

[/DISCLAIMERON]: I HEREBY ADMIT TO HAVE TESTED ELABORATED AND VERY NICE BOTS. YES, I DID CHEAT. [/DISCLAIMEROFF]

Another nice thing about rupt-based elaborated bots, is that common defense against rupts just don't work. If you try to lure a spell-based rupts (those mesmer ones that can only rupt spells n' shouts) by casting say a signet, the bot will cast the right skill able to rupt it and don't waste a spell-based rupt. Faking, an also common way to force interrupt wasting, also don't work at all, because the bot just cast rupt when it has something to rupt, while a human would lured by the casting animation and rupt even when it has stopped.
I mean that, contrarily to Martin's assomptions, a lot of human and skill based defense against those kind of bots just fail badly.

Well, anyway, the first bot that was extremely potent was introduced by A-Net itself in HA, it was Olias the Necro and his companions N/Rt.
It has only gotten worst since, that is why I just don't play anymore that rotten game.

As a side note: No, I won't buy GW2. A-Nets bad moves and uncareness on GW1 just have taken me definitively away.
LOTRO, while grind-based, has a so nice community that I think I clearly found my place there, until Starcraft II and Diablo III get out.

If there's any doubt about who has a rock or not, you dodge (at least) the first one they toss, or put up a fort if you feel too insecure.

Well obviously, you won't be able to "google" these bots, let alone find an open forum allowing you to download it.
It wouldn't be called underground communities if you could google yourself straight to them, would it?

Izzy's balance forums still exist, if I'm not mistaken, yet try and google it, or even view it's pages (it's locked for visitors). Exactly, you can't...
And more often than not, those sites aren't even in English. (German seems to be the most common language) ITS ALWAYS ZE GERMANS.


Also, 8 more days till Snowball, the clock is ticking, Anet...

Since it is on google code it is open to anyone at this point. Since my previous post was just removed concerning I said no and how I found it, I will ask again how to go about listing the information here.

Locating it as I did is proof positive that this exists and is a problem! In my mind the rest of this discussion is mute. This bot exists and needs to be removed as soon as possible!!!!

someone already posted snips of the code. lulz.

Don't post names, snippets of code, or anything else. Really, there's not much need to post evidence since ANet knows about it. If you'd like, send them an email with screens, names, etc.

Other than that, we can't allow names of any bots or websites related to them on this forum. It's a delicate matter and we're trying to handle it as delicately as possible.

Great job Katsumi, you acted very responsibly. But I'm afraid that opening this kind of door will inevitably bring some "wind" from the outside to the inside anyway, and this wind stinks.

Well, they could assign 1 guy who a day of week take a day off from what usually do.

Pick a suspect match, check the log, confirm the botting, ban the account. Ban the guild.

Analyse the info of the account, logs, support ticket, credit card info, IP log address etc. find all the other account connected to the same person and ban them too.

It might lead to some error(nothing who cannot be fixed), but eventually if one seriously risk to lose all what he have on guildwars and not just one of the multiple account he don't care for...

That's why you open windows and air things out.

But not all.

Example: A friend of mine used to monk top 50 for a year or so. One match of his that I obsed had a Mesmer hero with 7 interrupts on the bar locked onto him. He couldn't cast anything. They wiped twice.

Then they got smart, and realized that if they ran the Mesmer hero around the map they could die less. They split and ultimately won the match.

You aren't thinking. What I'm saying is that other people obviously must be, if they have been winning mATs in an environment where bots exist. So the proper response to the problem in the near term (until ANet gets around to responding) is to figure out how to beat the things.

@ Borat: I don't have to play to be able to think, y'dig? If I were trying to Build Wars the bot, there are a few things that I would try. I'm not sure that there are enough cheap, low recharge spells that would interfere with the bot's ability to function these days, but that's where I would start. If I can force the bot to counter a specific player's spells, the bot won't have interrupts available for the Monk and my team will live. It's obviously the largest threat on the opposing team, so it's worth burning a character slot to disable it. Your botting opponent is obviously relying on the bot to generate kills. Take that away, and they're going to start to suck.

Another thing I'd try is this: another defensive character, and a generally more defensive build. If an interrupt bot can prevent a single healer from casting, but that's all it's good for, then adding another Monk negates the advantage. You pay a price for that (you're not going to kill anything) and it reduces the game to just gaming the tiebreaker, which is lame, but if it wins it wins.

Neither is an ideal solution; the rest of your team is going to have to be that much better than theirs in order to win. But it's the best you can do under the circumstances until ANet gets around to fixing the problem.

If teams are running a single bot, I would split it if the map makes that possible. I wouldn't want to stand and fight it if I could avoid it, and I'd want it to be in a situation where the opposing team has to crack two defensive characters with reduced damage wherever the bot is. If teams are taking multiple interrupt bots, then splitting isn't going to improve on the 8 man outcome and is futile.

You aren't giving any indication that you are trying novel strategies. But that's what smurfs are for. If we're beating cheaters in formats with a level playing field (where in principle cheats would be most decisive), it should follow that they can be beaten in formats where you have more strategic options available to you. The fact that legit teams have been winning mATs seems to confirm this, unless you want to claim that recent mAT winners have also been botting.

You aren't admitting to yourself that other players might just be better than you, or at least better at coping with this sort of problem. I'm not denying that the botting is a problem. I'm saying that the evidence suggests it isn't the biggest one. If you think about it, the fundamental issue here is that technical perfection with interrupts confers too large an advantage. The botters are just exploiting that. There are too many high quality, low cost, low recharge interrupts right now.

This is why getting the skills right is so important.

I'm voting that this thread be closed (again?), because:

• There has been no proof set forth that a bot for RBR exists.
• Would there be solid proof, rules against posting links to it or names of its users seem to be prohibited on these forums and enforced fairly well, so such proof can't really be used here anyways.
• The thread has started to go back to the topic of Snowball bots, which we have already discussed in the past and such threads have since been closed for various reasons or have died.
• ANet has already acknowledged the existence of bots.
• ANet knows where to find some of these bots.
• The thread is saturated with posts that make absolutely no attempt to describe how ANet can better handle this situation, and rather with viewpoints that ANet either should or should not be taking action against bots at this time.
• "My opinion > your opinion" arguments are not going to take this thread anywhere.

Vetoed you're late. a very functional RBR "bot" can be made.

Unless you can suggest to us what ANet can do about it, it doesn't matter here whether the bot exists or not. There's no constructive discussion to come out of it otherwise, so having a thread about it is pointless.

I do agree that a bot can be made to play in RBR but a competitive bot is an entirely different matter all together.

I just cant see it happening to be honest, most if not all the top 100 RBR players just use common sense and know the tricks of the track and have a nack for it. So in short a bot can be made but would be the point if it cant get you were you need to go, it really is an improbable task to create such a thing and the time dedicated towards making it makes me shudder.

Considering the events which have RBR during the year there is almost hardly anytime to do any constructive research.

Pol

Edit; I also agree that Snowball Arena bots has been spoken about in to many other threads so theres no real need to keep harping on about it. Focus on the "possibility" of an RBR bot.

I vote for ArenaNet to monitor the Roller Beetle Race!

I find it funny how you're trying to get it locked Shayne, as you are ALSO one of the people in question. You play with Yuri, in dutch we have a nice expression: "Wiens brood men eet, diens woord men spreekt", and translated it means: "Who's bread one eats, who's word one speaks".

I understand your view on this might be different, but trying to get this thread locked is only making yourself look more suspicious. (On top of that fact you're also in the botting guild, AND play with known botters)

@ Martin:

Hlarious how you say: "They ran around the map a bit, and died less, and won". Ow gee, That would work, because, you know, everyone knows interupt bots stop interrupting when you're running around the map... Aside from the fact that that made NO sense, WHAT are you trying to say here?

That if you split a interrupt bot, he stops being effective? How is that so? If anything, if you split them you're always going to need 1 healer on each side (Unless you wanna risk loosing your split), and that interrupt bot can fully shut one healer down...

And if you so ensist on splitting them, who says they can't split back proporly aswell? You're intire arguement is based on the fact the botting guild can't split for sh..t, but why does this have to be true?
You are, once again, taking flawed examples, as you ASSUME the botting guild can't split. Yet, in reality, if 2 equally matched guilds, with an equally matched build (Except for the mesmers then offcourse), the botting guild can split just as well as the non botting guild. With the different that the botting guild STILL has the ability to interrupt every prot and heal in the match, aswell as other defensive skills.

People who bot are bad, else you wouldn't need one.
Bad people can't split. Split wins.

It's been claimed that the designers of the bots have a private server where they can test anything, including RBR, whenever they want.

But I agree that a bot would only be as good as its designer. You'd have to understand RBR at a very high level to be able to write a bot that can beat the fastest humans, and the Catch-22 is that if you already understand RBR at that level, you don't need the bot. Writing and debugging it would be a waste of time.

The creator of the infamous video either didn't know everything there is to know, or didn't show his entire hand.

You know I fully agree with that Martin, even if they have a private server where they can test a bot fully, without the knowledge and the optimum tactics/route which only the top RBR racers know, then its just a waste of time.

I am sure some players would be intrested in using the bot to attempt a top 100 time but it wont get them anywhere.

Pol

After reading about and locating that freaking program, I have to side with Killed on this. The mere presence of it taints the game(s), noone should have to adjust their playstyle to combat this. It is against the EULA and needs to go.

I wish I was smart enough about how this freaking program works and how to combat it. If I was I would make suggestions about how to kill it. ANET employs personnel that are smart about it and how it works, they should be the ones kill this thing. If there are things ANET wants us as players to do to combat this then tell me what that is, I will be first in line to help!!!

I'm saying that I watched a team with competent players that I knew defeat a Mesmer hero with flawless interrupts a while back.

When it's running, it ain't casting.

This gave them the ability to handle the pressure that was dished out on the rare occasions when they had to stand and fight the hero. When they did so, they were careful to make sure that they had a monk AND the runner available for heals so that people would not die to the other damage in the opponent's offensive split.

I'm not making that assumption. The teams were both competent in the case I observed (top 100, 12-18 months ago). It's not that the team with the hero was stupid. It's that the opponent managed to generate credible threats that had to be defended, and as a result they were able to keep the Mesmer bot running rather than casting a large proportion of the time.

The point that's at issue isn't whether the bot and user interface cheats need to go. The point that's at issue is whether there isn't anything you can do about the bots while they're around. I think we can all agree that they make the game less fun.

What I'm saying is that if you haven't tried every possible strategy for beating the bot, it's still your own fault if you lose to it. I've seen strategies executed that solved similar problems with Mesmer interrupt heroes in GvG. I don't need to cheat to win in RBR, ditto for Snowball Arena.

If that's the case and good play still beats bots, then they're a priority issue but not a high priority one. I'd like to see a thriving meta with some variety in it that's overrun by botters more than I'd like to see a stale, boring meta that is bot free but isn't fun to play.

It ends there, that is a flawed statement, so whichever continues is going to be untrue aswell.

Did you really just compared a HERO to a BOT? Granted, there is so similarities, but I gues this shows HOW FEW you know of the interrupt bots out there. If you want me to name a few differences:

1) A hero is TIED to the player
2) A hero can't weapon swap, let alone swap to shields
3) A hero CAN'T MOVE ANYWHERE. (Partially 1)
4) You can't split with a hero team, for the obvious reason mentioned in 1) and 3), therefor your statement still is correct.

All you have proven is that a 8 man team can outsplit a team with heroes. Congratulations, every top GvG'er figured that out when RaO, or even discord spike, became meta.

When your Monks are running, they're not casting either, so why would the bot be casting in the first place? Your Warrior SHOULD be hitting shit regardless (Rush/PR wins games), not to mention Bull's, etc.
And I hurd interrupt spells take 1/4s, or even less with FC, to cast. As long as a real player controls the bot's movement, which it does, splitting against it is of no use.

You can ONLY hope you can wipe them on either side, but that means a team failed, and it could as well have been the non botting team to wipe.

This does't change the fact that IF a guild were to get immunity from Anet (Won't ban them), and that guild was allowed to bot, they would have SIGNIFICANT advantage over the other team. If you can't see this, you clearly need to GvG a bit more.

Ask any top 50 GvG team how fast they would wipe in a mAT if your prot and heal Monk got WoH, guardian and RC interrupted 24/7. Anwser will be: faster than you can say ruptbot.

If you can reduce the pressure on the split with the Mesmer to the point where it is manageable by the defensive character that isn't getting interrupt spammed, you have solved the problem.

If you stand and fight them, that's not likely to be the case. But if you can generate credible threats via movement that require a response, you can keep them chasing you.

You said something that I wasn't able to find to restore, to the effect that people don't cheat in the mAT because they would get caught. If this is true, then:

- QPs are easy to come by; you don't have to play botters in ATs to play the mAT
- The mAT is clean
- You can scrimmage with other legit players bot-free to practice for the mAT

Please explain to me why you are not currently doing this if you cannot beat the bots. Is the fundamental problem that you cannot farm Champ points on the ladder?

Three minutes on the dot, Revelations.

There will be no further warnings - keep it civil. I suggest if you have any name calling to do, use the pm system.

Please don't flame, don't want get it locked again.

@Mods, I can't stop ppl from flaming, it's not my fault.

@Martin: You don't see something wrong with what you posted? Just because these bots can't enter AT's, tough they can if they wanted to risk getting banned, doesn't mean they're any less of a problem.

If you can't see that, than I'm seriously out of arguements to convince you.

If you think bots aren't that big of a problem, because a non-physicial barriers exists that keeps 'em out of the "serious" matches, then so be it. If GvG means nothing more to you than that, I can't convince you otherwise.