Everyone seems to be missing the real problem with Soldier's Fury giving Cracked Armor in PvE. Heroes and Henchmen will always waste their time and energy removing it, even when it doesn't matter. Think about that for a moment. Between "There Is Nothing to Fear!", "Go for the Eyes!", "Fall Back!", "Incoming!", "For Great Justice!", and "Save Yourselves!", there is a lot of Cracked Armor going around. Throw in PvE Shouts and you are wasting a lot of your Heroes and Henchmens' energy as well as time.
Please make this change only affect PvP.
Preliminary Skill Update Notes
Ariena Najea
Chocobo1
Underwhelming update is underwhelming. Guess I'll wait for the next one.
Giga_Gaia
What about MoI? Still absurd. I laughed when I read that they're only going to up its energy cost to 15e. Did no one in the TK catch that or what?
Also it wasn't very clear whether they would make the 1s bow attacks have aftercast in PvE as well. And as expected, another blow to the paragon's self esteem. I guess no update would be complete without one, eh?
Also it wasn't very clear whether they would make the 1s bow attacks have aftercast in PvE as well. And as expected, another blow to the paragon's self esteem. I guess no update would be complete without one, eh?
FoxBat
Cracked armor has hardly even mattered either outside of zergway builds. It's just RC fodder. Instead build -20 armor debuff into both skill's effect and solve problems in both places.
HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by Ariena Najea
Everyone seems to be missing the real problem with Soldier's Fury giving Cracked Armor in PvE. Heroes and Henchmen will always waste their time and energy removing it, even when it doesn't matter. Think about that for a moment. Between "There Is Nothing to Fear!", "Go for the Eyes!", "Fall Back!", "Incoming!", "For Great Justice!", and "Save Yourselves!", there is a lot of Cracked Armor going around. Throw in PvE Shouts and you are wasting a lot of your Heroes and Henchmens' energy as well as time.
Please make this change only affect PvP. |
That is actually a good point. There is no way to fix Hero AI either (because we obviously do want H/H to still remove actually harmful conditions).
Eh... conflicted. Yeah, might as well be PvP only.
MisterB
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Originally Posted by Ariena Najea
Everyone seems to be missing the real problem with Soldier's Fury giving Cracked Armor in PvE. Heroes and Henchmen will always waste their time and energy removing it, even when it doesn't matter. Think about that for a moment. Between "There Is Nothing to Fear!", "Go for the Eyes!", "Fall Back!", "Incoming!", "For Great Justice!", and "Save Yourselves!", there is a lot of Cracked Armor going around. Throw in PvE Shouts and you are wasting a lot of your Heroes and Henchmens' energy as well as time.
Please make this change only affect PvP. |
veteran_player
I think that saying that Soldiers Fury is being nerfed is a ploy by A-net. I think they know that this skill is very important to the dwindling number of PvE Paragons. I think they are saying this now so that they can later revert it to create some much needed goodwill for themselves.
I do not believe that this nerf will happen for PvE. They cannot possibly be this stupid and out of touch with thier own game. It is not possible for them to be this bad.
Can they ?
I do not believe that this nerf will happen for PvE. They cannot possibly be this stupid and out of touch with thier own game. It is not possible for them to be this bad.
Can they ?
Del
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Originally Posted by veteran_player
They cannot possibly be this stupid and out of touch with thier own game. It is not possible for them to be this bad.
Can they ? |
and this update still isn't going to address sway. LOL
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Ariena Najea
Everyone seems to be missing the real problem with Soldier's Fury giving Cracked Armor in PvE. Heroes and Henchmen will always waste their time and energy removing it, even when it doesn't matter. Think about that for a moment. Between "There Is Nothing to Fear!", "Go for the Eyes!", "Fall Back!", "Incoming!", "For Great Justice!", and "Save Yourselves!", there is a lot of Cracked Armor going around. Throw in PvE Shouts and you are wasting a lot of your Heroes and Henchmens' energy as well as time.
Please make this change only affect PvP. |
PvE isn't balanced around teams of incompetent AI.
PvE paragons: be strong and mighty, run frenzy.
NoConnection
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Originally Posted by lemming
Being able to chain three attack skills on a spike is what makes Glass Arrows rangers dangerous, not the +18 damage on Power Shot.
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Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
PvE isn't balanced.
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Ariena Najea
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Originally Posted by MisterB
I'm aware of that, but it's not an issue exclusive to the proposed Soldier's Fury update. I use Aggressive Refrain, so cracked armor gets spammed on me constantly. Is the H/H wasting energy and time removing it ideal? No, but why should Aggressive Refrain be left with the condition? AI does a lot of dumb things, but it's their job to cake care of trivial things like this so I don't have to. Actually, why use Soldier's Fury(in PvE) at all when Aggressive Refrain is available? That's another topic altogether.
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As for why to use Soldier's Fury in PvE, it seems most players who prefer Aggressive Refrain bring Focused Anger, gaining more Adrenaline Gain than players using Soldier's Fury. Aggressive Refrain requires some tertiary Shouts or Chants to keep it up, whereas Soldier's Fury works better with the longer-lasting Shouts such as "Stand Your Ground!" and "There is Nothing to Fear!". It's a difference in play style, and one is probably better for some situations than others.
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
PvE isn't balanced around teams of incompetent AI.
PvE paragons: be strong and mighty, run frenzy. |
Frenzy is certainly powerful, and while it is almost always on my Warrior's bar for PvP, the fact is that PvE Monsters (particularly in HM) do a lot more damage than opposing players in PvP. If you are running reliable tanks and don't have to worry about stray damage, that's fine, but for a "balanced" team setup it's suicide in many HM areas. It also locks the player into the Warrior secondary, which isn't always ideal. I know you're teasing though
lemming
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Originally Posted by NoConnection
you cant have glass arrows(only experts focus left for bonus dmg) and quick shot, quick shot is like a normal bow attack but it takes an elite's spot ...
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Don't laugh.
Windf0rce
I agree with lemming, if they leave out Quick Shot, someone could somehow find a way to use it's no-aftercast to spike. So while they are at it, kill all possibilities altogether by adding the aftercasts and be done with it... Not like anyone ever cared abot Quick Shot, it was shit, it's going to be even more shit, it makes no difference if it is nerfed or not because no one uses it anyway, I don't know why people are even complaining...
Bad unused skill + nerf = bad unused skill. No effect.
If anything, they can give Quick Shot a small buff later... but for now the goal is to kill Ranger spikes, a goal the update seems to be going towards nicely. Playing against Rspike is frustrating: it's a slow death, they have lots of defense, lots of offense, and the lame goes on... Update is good so far.
Bad unused skill + nerf = bad unused skill. No effect.
If anything, they can give Quick Shot a small buff later... but for now the goal is to kill Ranger spikes, a goal the update seems to be going towards nicely. Playing against Rspike is frustrating: it's a slow death, they have lots of defense, lots of offense, and the lame goes on... Update is good so far.
Revelations
Quiockshot vs. dR.
Quickshot wins.
OT: Turret rangers have been a pretty big issue for a couple years now in GvG, and clogging up HA for even longer. All of the 1s bow attacks were a pretty retarded idea to begin with - they've literally never been used outside of gimmicky spikes, aside from on very occasional Apply bars for faster poison spread. Neither situation will be missed, at least not by me.
Quickshot wins.
OT: Turret rangers have been a pretty big issue for a couple years now in GvG, and clogging up HA for even longer. All of the 1s bow attacks were a pretty retarded idea to begin with - they've literally never been used outside of gimmicky spikes, aside from on very occasional Apply bars for faster poison spread. Neither situation will be missed, at least not by me.
AexIndex
melandru's arrows ftw!!! lolers.
Welcome back hexyway!!!
Welcome back hexyway!!!
Coast
So basically several problems get neglected AGAIN (1sec bow attacks that are non elite and are the root problem of the rangers dmg in conjugation with glass arrow what isn't the root problem, rangers who think to be assassins, 100al monks, aoe blinds) and there are totally unneeded nerfs(glass arrows, rtl) and buffs(crip shot, hunter shot)
And hexes still strong as ever.
And hexes still strong as ever.
Killed u man
So what exactly will prevent rangers to simply run Expert's Focus, Dual Shot/Forked and Punishing follow up.
You only loose 10 dmg per arrow through Expert's Focus, but you GAIN a guaranteed +19 on Punishing.
So as opposed to a ranger doing +- 250 dmg through 3 attacks in a pretty unclean spike (admit it was farm from clean), ppl can now run Forked + Punishing for a +- 200 dmg spike in a pretty clean spike...
45 seconds on lightening is once again not fixing the core of the problem. Lightening reflexes should end when you use an attack skill.
The ONLY thing this update will do, is have people reconfigure some bars. You could, for example, run aggresive refrain again, and run moar defence. (Dual DA)
And on your 2 rangers, run the builds mentioned above.
Can always replace the water ele for a rt/e with Brutal weapon, winter's embrace, Ice Prison, Icy Shackles/Trident.
My monthly predictions: [ym] for gold with a build similar to what I mentioned above. It's got a just as strong spike/split, if not cleaner. (Due to the lack of 1 sec ranger skill in between)
Brutaled rangers can still dish out a wooping 100 dmg crit on forked arrow (106 with glass arrows as I recall) and 120 dmg on Punishing shot.
You only loose 10 dmg per arrow through Expert's Focus, but you GAIN a guaranteed +19 on Punishing.
So as opposed to a ranger doing +- 250 dmg through 3 attacks in a pretty unclean spike (admit it was farm from clean), ppl can now run Forked + Punishing for a +- 200 dmg spike in a pretty clean spike...
45 seconds on lightening is once again not fixing the core of the problem. Lightening reflexes should end when you use an attack skill.
The ONLY thing this update will do, is have people reconfigure some bars. You could, for example, run aggresive refrain again, and run moar defence. (Dual DA)
And on your 2 rangers, run the builds mentioned above.
Can always replace the water ele for a rt/e with Brutal weapon, winter's embrace, Ice Prison, Icy Shackles/Trident.
My monthly predictions: [ym] for gold with a build similar to what I mentioned above. It's got a just as strong spike/split, if not cleaner. (Due to the lack of 1 sec ranger skill in between)
Brutaled rangers can still dish out a wooping 100 dmg crit on forked arrow (106 with glass arrows as I recall) and 120 dmg on Punishing shot.
jaximus
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Originally Posted by MisterB
I'm aware of that, but it's not an issue exclusive to the proposed Soldier's Fury update. I use Aggressive Refrain, so cracked armor gets spammed on me constantly. Is the H/H wasting energy and time removing it ideal? No, but why should Aggressive Refrain be left with the condition? AI does a lot of dumb things, but it's their job to cake care of trivial things like this so I don't have to. Actually, why use Soldier's Fury(in PvE) at all when Aggressive Refrain is available? That's another topic altogether.
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Xsiriss
Way to utterly destroy rangers (in pve too apparently...) and nerf random crap (cracked armour for soldiers fury in PvE!?).
Del
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Originally Posted by Xsiriss
Way to utterly destroy rangers
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check this shit out.
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Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom
LOL
This doesn't affect apply rangers. no big deal. ranger's role isn't to do big damage, it's to spread conditions and disrupt. Who cares about some baed near useless skills being nerfed? they didn't even get the real issue with ranger which was the fact that expertise lets them spam lame skills and with with their gay ass lamer sway builds. |
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Originally Posted by Apok Omen
Rangers dealing high amounts of damage in a matter of 2 seconds has been a problem from Proph. This is actually a step up for Anet.
The only skillful rangers were those who had next to no damage output but could still pressure and shutdown like a pimp. Basically, the physical equivalent a dom mes. |
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Originally Posted by Windf0rce
lol, stop crying now, Ranger is still one of the most powerful PvP professions even after those nerfs that only affect stupid gimmick spike builds (ultra defense ultra offense Para / Ranger teams zzzz). When will people realise that D-Shotting a WoH hurts a team way more than dealing big damage?
THE R/Mo 'Apply' template isn't being hit and that's all that matters... it's a very good update. |
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Fixed for ya.
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While I do not think PvE (or Guild Wars in general) should prioritize Hero and Henchmen synergy with skills, it really ought to be considered. While the game is not dead, it is still dying. As time goes on, players will have more a more difficult time finding full teams of players, and every skill that the Hero and Henchmen react horribly too detracts from the experience when in a party with them. ArenaNet needs to sell Guild Wars 2, and is likely going to be banking on an influx of new players into Guild Wars 1 at GW2's release. A lot of dissatisfied players is both degenerative to the game, as well as future releases due to the loss of revenue. One skill (ie Soldier's Fury) is not going to bring about a Cataclysm, but there is a while before Guild Wars 2 will come around, and many updates will occur in that period. This is a poor trend to begin at this stage of the game's life. Frenzy is certainly powerful, and while it is almost always on my Warrior's bar for PvP, the fact is that PvE Monsters (particularly in HM) do a lot more damage than opposing players in PvP. If you are running reliable tanks and don't have to worry about stray damage, that's fine, but for a "balanced" team setup it's suicide in many HM areas. It also locks the player into the Warrior secondary, which isn't always ideal. I know you're teasing though |
Yes, HM monsters deal much more damage than players in PvP. So? You don't need a tank to be able to run frenzy on a paragon. You don't even need to be in a full human team to do it. All you need is to be somewhat smart, have a hero with protective spirit, and possibly have a cancel stance. I run it all the time in HM areas when I'm using H/H, I never have serious problems. And yes, it does make you use /W, but honestly what paragon in PvE isn't running SY these days (other than the ones screwing around and running a random subpar build)?
Life Bringing
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Well, that's true. But when ANet attempts to balance PvE, they don't balance skills around AI teams (unless they're balancing a skill solely for a H/H team).
It's true that it's going to continue to be more difficult to find full human teams, but giving this skill cracked armor doesn't kill it, nor does it kill paragons in h/h teams. Take a look at almost every single IAS in the game. The majority have drawbacks. Now take a look at Soldier's Fury. You cast it once and you'll have it on you indefinitely. The only 'drawback' is that you need to be under a chant or shout, which is hardly a drawback for a paragon. It should have had cracked armor from the beginning. Yes, HM monsters deal much more damage than players in PvP. So? You don't need a tank to be able to run frenzy on a paragon. You don't even need to be in a full human team to do it. All you need is to be somewhat smart, have a hero with protective spirit, and possibly have a cancel stance. I run it all the time in HM areas when I'm using H/H, I never have serious problems. And yes, it does make you use /W, but honestly what paragon in PvE isn't running SY these days (other than the ones screwing around and running a random subpar build)? |
Axel Zinfandel
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Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom
seriously? this again? did you even read the thread before bringing this point up again?
check this shit out. |
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Really hope you have SoA on your heroes. With frenzy+SY, you're going to be a pretty hawt target.
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That and don't go mashing Frenzy when you run up to that group of Ruby Djinn
moriz
i'd rather anet use "disables all bow attack skills for .5 seconds" instead of adding that aftercast. aftercast makes the character into a sitting duck, while the skill disable will at least allow the character to move.
and cripshot needs a 1s cooldown; though the double speed arrow effect sounds pretty cool. eat my longbow range crip biatch!
and cripshot needs a 1s cooldown; though the double speed arrow effect sounds pretty cool. eat my longbow range crip biatch!
jazilla
I guess Focused Anger FTW now. Spam stuff to help out team mates. There simply is no room for me to play my PvE para anymore and since it's the lamest profession in 4v4 that leaves room for me to roll one in 8v8 on my PvP slot?
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by lemming
Being able to chain three attack skills on a spike is what makes Glass Arrows rangers dangerous, not the +18 damage on Power Shot.
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Quick Shot would have never been used for that because it's not worth giving up the elite spot. It's definitely not worth it considering you could be spreading conditions or doing more damage team wide.
lemming
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
Chaining three attack skills is not the only thing that made them dangerous. Glass Arrows actually added damage and was often combined with other skills (Brutal Weapon) to do even more damage in three hits.
Quick Shot would have never been used for that because it's not worth giving up the elite spot. It's definitely not worth it considering you could be spreading conditions or doing more damage team wide. |
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by lemming
In the absence of any other fast-activating alternatives, people would run Quick Shot. It's not that complicated.
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Nimble Night
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
But why? If there are no other skills adding additional damage, then what's the point? I highly doubt people would have run Conjure+QS. That would have been terrible.
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lemming
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
But why? If there are no other skills adding additional damage, then what's the point? I highly doubt people would have run Conjure+QS. That would have been terrible.
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BTW, QS + Expert's Focus still does up to 200 damage for one ranger. It's certainly a significant downgrade from the current bar, but why should damage rangers be kept viable?
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by lemming
BTW, QS + Expert's Focus still does up to 200 damage for one ranger. It's certainly a significant downgrade from the current bar, but why should damage rangers be kept viable?
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Eventually ANet forgot about history and started creating abusable Ranger direct damage mechanics again during the NF-EotN period when damage was seriously OP (necessitating similarly OP team-wide defensive skills).
I'm sure you already know that, but the point does need to be made explicitly.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Really hope you have SoA on your heroes. With frenzy+SY, you're going to be a pretty hawt target.
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Sifow Chan
Anet you're all morons. Nerfing the only GOOD Elite Para's have in PvP.
Why do you hate the profession so much?
You nerf and nerf them and never give them a buff.
Seriously you suck.
Everyone can say what they want about me, but it's seriously sickening to see how they just keep making Paragons worse and worse.
Why do you hate the profession so much?
You nerf and nerf them and never give them a buff.
Seriously you suck.
Everyone can say what they want about me, but it's seriously sickening to see how they just keep making Paragons worse and worse.
IrishX
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Originally Posted by Sifow Chan
Anet you're all morons. Nerfing the only GOOD Elite Para's have in PvP.
Why do you hate the profession so much? You nerf and nerf them and never give them a buff. Seriously you suck. Everyone can say what they want about me, but it's seriously sickening to see how they just keep making Paragons worse and worse. |
Nimble Night
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Originally Posted by Sifow Chan
Anet you're all morons. Nerfing the only GOOD Elite Para's have in PvP.
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Originally Posted by Sifow Chan
You nerf and nerf them and never give them a buff.
Seriously you suck. |
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Originally Posted by Sifow Chan
Everyone can say what they want about me, but it's seriously sickening to see how they just keep making Paragons worse and worse.
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pinkeyflower
While I like most of the proposed changes I'm still unsure about the aftercast added to Ride the Lightning (now I can't farm fame in HA anymore). The exhaustion was more than enough as a deterrent to melee classes and I've found that they're not used all that much anyway. A bit off-topic but instead of nerfing Quick Shot try addressing the bot problem.
Redvex
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
They shouldn't. Balance requires that the Ranger make some tradeoff for the ability to interrupt and deal damage at range. The designed tradeoff obviously was that a Ranger could deal damage over time but, unlike a Warrior, could not deal large packets of damage right now. The balance team's repeated actions against Ranger spike tend to confirm this.
Eventually ANet forgot about history and started creating abusable Ranger direct damage mechanics again during the NF-EotN period when damage was seriously OP (necessitating similarly OP team-wide defensive skills). I'm sure you already know that, but the point does need to be made explicitly. |
Interrupts and degen are unuseful in pve!!
Think in mind that not all play pvp
Meridon
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Originally Posted by Redvex
There also someone who play pve.
Interrupts and degen are unuseful in pve!! Think in mind that not all play pvp |
However, as long as all the skills in this update are not being split and nerfed purely for PvP, everything discussed here definitely affects PvE. And this is a bad thing, because we know PvE and PvP are recognized as two different things, even by ArenaNET, and thus one nerf shouldn't affect the other.
Test Crew, you have the option to split skills for PvE/PvP. Use it!
Artisan Archer
Maybe we should make it easier on the pve'ers and make monsters use the pvp version of a skill. Now you can buff every pve skill and /faceroll to victory!