Preliminary Skill Update Notes - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

26 Jan 2010 at 05:40 - 201

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

They're basically chopping ranger's d***'s off completely with this update. I feel sorry for all you ranger fans out there.

LOL
This doesn't affect apply rangers. no big deal. ranger's role isn't to do big damage, it's to spread conditions and disrupt. Who cares about some baed near useless skills being nerfed? they didn't even get the real issue with ranger which was the fact that expertise lets them spam lame skills and with with their gay ass lamer sway builds.

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

26 Jan 2010 at 05:48 - 202

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

LOL
This doesn't affect apply rangers. no big deal. ranger's role isn't to do big damage, it's to spread conditions and disrupt. Who cares about some baed near useless skills being nerfed? they didn't even get the real issue with ranger which was the fact that expertise lets them spam lame skills and with with their gay ass lamer sway builds.

*resists urge not to flame...*

hang on... spread conditions and disrupt? Isn't that what Mesmers are supposed to do? Really rangers should be the midway between dealing damage and giving conditions, but then again, everyone has different ideas about what each class should do and their place in the GW (or any ORPG) world...

Apok Omen

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Commence Aggro [BaMf]

Mo/E

26 Jan 2010 at 06:12 - 203

Rangers dealing high amounts of damage in a matter of 2 seconds has been a problem from Proph. This is actually a step up for Anet.

The only skillful rangers were those who had next to no damage output but could still pressure and shutdown like a pimp. Basically, the physical equivalent a dom mes.

veteran_player

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2006

ATF

N/

26 Jan 2010 at 06:29 - 204

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

So you're saying we've gotten nothing of value from any updates in the past....what? A year? Because, while they haven't maintained the same level of quantity or quality as they were when, you know, the entire team was working on GW1, they certainly have given us a number of improvements to the game relatively recently. The PvP meta, for one thing, has been rather stale lately, but don't try to tell me that it isn't a hell of a lot better right now than it was in the past year or two. I remember when hexway was literally all anyone ran in GvG; midlines are still too powerful (which at the very least they've acknowledged in this dev update), but the game is nowhere near as unhealthy as it was right after NF's release.

I can't comment on how he feels, but I can say that I think things were pretty good right after the release of Nightfall. Yes there were some things being abused, (when weren't there) but there were also two new classes and a ton of new skills to mess with.

TBH I do think things are at about the worst they have ever been ( well since spirits stacked and rangers hit everything for 400 anyways) because they have stagnated.

I don't think its unreasonable to expect updates of the same quality today as we saw two years ago. The reason why is that all the skills are out there. We know what they do now, we understand the synergistics. The only reason for anything to need balancing right now is because they messed up somewhere.

Had they kept thier promises and adhered to the print on the box, and placed some effort in maintaining the games identity rather than selling out over the last couple years the only real task they would have right now would be to keep things fresh by rotating various versions of skills in and out which would probably leave time for them to add new content as opposed to simple rehashes.

All that being said it is what it is and we got what we get and we either accept it or not. But be honest. Don't promise bi-monthly updates and then let the game stagnate for 8 months. For me, its the empty promises and 18 month delays that are the most disapointing.

I don't think its wrong to expect something more. I am pulling my wallet out every other week for another storage slot or a set of costumes or a character makeover......... not because I really care so much about those things, but because I WANT UPDATES AND SUPPORT. I want them to deliver the bi-monthly updates.

Sure it is easy to say, oh they are busy working on GW2. But guess what? I am still playing GW1. I am not at all concerned with GW2.

NoConnection

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

A/W

26 Jan 2010 at 06:58 - 205

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Rangers dealing high amounts of damage in a matter of 2 seconds has been a problem from Proph. This is actually a step up for Anet.

The only skillful rangers were those who had next to no damage output but could still pressure and shutdown like a pimp. Basically, the physical equivalent a dom mes.

+1

ps:standart melshot ranger in gvg has next to nothing as damage also

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

26 Jan 2010 at 09:17 - 206

Quick Shot was probably the last skill on the Ranger that needed a nerf, esspecially with Needling Shot removed as synergy.

Needling builds were one of the very few Ranger PvE builds I enjoyed :/ *sigh*

And a Soldier's Fury nerf in PvE of all things? is that really necessary?

You know, looking back to that interview and how you guys realize that PvE and PvP is a different game, and looking at this PvP focused update and how many PvE skills it messes with kind of bugs me. Which is it guys?

Also, Sundering/Penetrating shot LOOKS like a buff, but it's actually a nerf considering the .5 second aftercast. the total time not is bumped up to 1.25 from 1 second.

Overall, looks good for PvP, terrible for PvE

Master Ketsu

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

middle of nowhere

Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]

R/

26 Jan 2010 at 09:52 - 207

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Hey everyone. A few changes emerged after testing over the weekend, and we'd like to share another preview with you:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...pdate_previews

These updates are bad and the test krewe should be ashamed. They reek of single class perspective bias.

Ranger's needed no nerf. People needed to stop being bad and learn to use obstruction better. And quick shot nerf? LMAO! Quick shot was left behind in the power creep ages ago. This just confirms that the people in charge of these updates have no clue how ranger is actually played.

Wounding strike nerf where?

Soldier fury nerf in...PVE? LOL?

FF nerf where?

PRETTYMUCHEVERYTHINGTOPPLAYERSHAVEBEENCOMPLAINING ABOUTFORTHEPASTTWOYEARS nerf where ?

The only thing redeeming here is the life steal monk buffs. Too bad they are years in the meta too late, otherwise it may have actually meant something.

Bad skill updates are bad. Bad balance team is bad. Dead game is dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

They're basically chopping ranger's d***'s off completely with this update. I feel sorry for all you ranger fans out there.

Actually they aren't. The degen/interrupt builds that Rangers such as myself like to run are pretty much unaffected. The majority of these nerfs are dumb because they don't really address major issues. This update may kill Ranger spike in HA...but the problems that plague HA are much much deeper than just Rspike. The entire way HA is designed from the way rank is determined on up is flawed and rewards unskillful play in favor of mindless grind. Players will simply flock to the next best mindless 123 build like they have done for ages and it will be business as usual. Same with GVG.

ousbique

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

France :)

Rage Team [rT]

Mo/

26 Jan 2010 at 10:01 - 208

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Ranger's needed no nerf. People needed to stop being bad and learn to use obstruction better.

wow, lol.

Obstruction ? where ? On many halls there's no way to hide. Look at the flagstand on jade, firemap, druids, corrupted, imperial or uncharted... even if there is a possibility of obstructions, rangers and paras just have to active "fall back" and Lightning Reflexes and go pew pew !

Master Ketsu

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

middle of nowhere

Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]

R/

26 Jan 2010 at 10:08 - 209

Quote:

Originally Posted by ousbique

wow, lol.

Obstruction ? where ? On many halls there's no way to hide. Look at the flagstand on jade, firemap, druids, corrupted, imperial or uncharted... even if there is a possibility of obstructions, rangers and paras just have to active "fall back" and Lightning Reflexes and go pew pew !

Do you have any idea how buggy obstruction is?

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

26 Jan 2010 at 10:13 - 210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

*resists urge not to flame...*

hang on... spread conditions and disrupt? Isn't that what Mesmers are supposed to do? Really rangers should be the midway between dealing damage and giving conditions, but then again, everyone has different ideas about what each class should do and their place in the GW (or any ORPG) world...

thought i'd nip this in the bud before the stupid gets too strong but..

no, mesmers do not spread conditions >.>

in pvp disruption is mainly rangers and mesmers

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

26 Jan 2010 at 11:08 - 211

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

These updates are bad and the test krewe should be ashamed. They reek of single class perspective bias.

Ranger's needed no nerf. People needed to stop being bad and learn to use obstruction better. And quick shot nerf? LMAO! Quick shot was left behind in the power creep ages ago. This just confirms that the people in charge of these updates have no clue how ranger is actually played.

The only thing your post confirmed was that you have no clue how gvg has actually been played for the last four months.

P.S.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

PRETTYMUCHEVERYTHINGTOPPLAYERSHAVEBEENCOMPLAINING ABOUTFORTHEPASTTWOYEARS nerf where ?

What kind of "top players" have you been talking to?

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

26 Jan 2010 at 11:38 - 212

No love for the ranger. Nerf lightning reflexes you might aswell add a big bullseye on ranger foreheads. I say increase ranger max armor lever to 100 to compensate for this crap. (just kidding) But it does sadden me. Test crew is full of sin loving dicks.

Windf0rce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

26 Jan 2010 at 11:52 - 213

lol, stop crying now, Ranger is still one of the most powerful PvP professions even after those nerfs that only affect stupid gimmick spike builds (ultra defense ultra offense Para / Ranger teams zzzz). When will people realise that D-Shotting a WoH hurts a team way more than dealing big damage?

THE R/Mo 'Apply' template isn't being hit and that's all that matters... it's a very good update.

AexIndex

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2009

26 Jan 2010 at 14:35 - 214

Not a bad balance to be honest...

Cultist really hits the Bspikers and dual ranger is toned down.

Also the snares are a bit toned which is also nice.

Good job Anet!

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

26 Jan 2010 at 15:05 - 215

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Test crew is full of sin loving dicks.

Yeah, I heard they are going to do a lot of unconfortable and sometimes surprising things to em in next update.

The Arching Healer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Super Kaon Action Team [SuKa]

26 Jan 2010 at 15:20 - 216

Holy shit,

Why randomly buff Cripshot. That must be the most ... Nevermind, I can think of 100 more retarded buffs.

Krill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

America

26 Jan 2010 at 15:28 - 217

Quote:

Originally Posted by AexIndex

Also the snares are a bit toned which is also nice.

Water magic hardly takes a hit, namely no change to f-gust and now we're gona have laser beam cripshot...

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

26 Jan 2010 at 16:14 - 218

RTL nerf

Cripshot looks gloriousssss now. EDIT - no love for the ranger? CRIPPLE+UNBLOCKABLE+FAST? JESUS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO SHIT RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO

Also gw is still boring.

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

26 Jan 2010 at 17:05 - 219

This looks good. I am surprised at the comments on the link though, and I quote: "We do not expect PvE paragons to be harmed by this change; so we're letting it apply to both PvE and PvP." Meaning you didn't test it in PvE even though you've had 4 and a half months to do so?

I hope next month's update is ginormous, because I figured you guys were going for a homerun ball and changing the pvp meta drastically with all the time it took to get this out. While I understand that subtlety is a nice way to go, I don't believe your reasons of why it took so long to do this quite frankly. We used to get updates like this in a month's time of work.

Anyways, some of the changes look pretty great. The monk stuff is really cool.

Artisan Archer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Free Wind

R/

26 Jan 2010 at 17:36 - 220

Cripshot is ossum, longbow range/undodgeable lol

I have a feeling this change will be reverted though.

Nimble Night

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2007

london

History Repeats Itself [Cry]/Get Pooped[NJoY]

Mo/

26 Jan 2010 at 17:59 - 221

I thought we had agreed that randomly buffing elites was a bad idea? If you wanted it to see more play you should have removed the 1sec cast on Mel Shot and reduced its recharge. That way its a less reliable snare but can be used for spreading bleeding. So if you need a reliable snare on the ranger you bring Crip Shot.

The rest of the ranger reworks look good. However Glass Arrows should have been reworked, nerfing it out of play completely, after having such a long period of time to change it, is just sloppy.

I personally didn't see anything wrong with ride the lightning, at 10e + 1sec cast as well as exhaustion, I thought it was relatively balanced. Although it was never used outside of defensive spikes, so I'm not overly sad to see it go.

What I was hoping to get from this update was:

All the changed except for the buff to Crippling Shot.

A nerf to all of the currently broken speed buffs, ie: Illusion Of Haste, Dash, Storm Djinns, etc. To the point that they are all on the same level as Windborne Speed. This would decrease people reliance on water eles.

Freezing Gust should get the same treatment as Winters Embrace.

Powerblock toned down so people will run primary eles and necros.

Revert to Aegis to keep ranger interrupts in check.

Changes to Vicious Attack and perhaps Spear of Lightning.

It would be nice to see LoD be viable again also, but should require a high divine favour investment to stop it being abused by midline characters.

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

26 Jan 2010 at 18:06 - 222

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Quick Shot was probably the last skill on the Ranger that needed a nerf, esspecially with Needling Shot removed as synergy.

The Quick Shot nerf made me laugh so hard. It's almost like nerfing Signet of Removal or something....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Also, Sundering/Penetrating shot LOOKS like a buff, but it's actually a nerf considering the .5 second aftercast. the total time not is bumped up to 1.25 from 1 second.

Actually, you're wrong. It is a buff. Sundering/Penetrating shots have a PvP/PvE skill split. They're only adding the aftercast to the PvP versions.

The PvE versions shouldn't have an aftercast....although, it still doesn't make them very good (single target damage in PvE zzzzz)

Apok Omen

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Commence Aggro [BaMf]

Mo/E

26 Jan 2010 at 18:09 - 223

If I may summarize everybody's opinions on the update:

MoI/Cultist's Fervor/Non-Elite Bow Attacks/ Glass Arrows/ Lightning Reflexes changes are good.

Quick Shot shouldn't be changed (trust me, it won't be abused in spikes mainly due to no added damage)

Cripshot doesn't need a buff (If anything, make it 1sec recharge instead of 2sec, but please, for the love of god, don't make it undodgable)

Nerf recharge on Freezing Gust as well (8 seconds should do it)

Don't make Soldier's Fury give cracked armor in PvE.

That is all.

veteran_player

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2006

ATF

N/

26 Jan 2010 at 18:11 - 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Soldier's Fury will be given a similar downside as Aggressive Refrain. "Whenever a shout or chant ends on you, you suffer from Cracked Armor (10 seconds)." The purpose of this change is to force paragons to make a choice between defense (higher armor) or offense (increased attack speed). We do not expect PvE paragons to be harmed by this change; so we're letting it apply to both PvE and PvP.

To say that this will not harm PvE Paragons is outrightly absurd.

Its is hard enough to encourage people to make Paragons for PVE.

I'd ask why but there is no point, it has never been more clear to me that you guys do not play your own game.

So disapointing.

MisterB

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

[ban]

W/

26 Jan 2010 at 18:45 - 225

No, cracked armor on Soldier's Fury won't hurt PvE Paragons. It will only discourage some people that play them. Cracked armor doesn't matter, but that is the chief argument against Aggressive Refrain, along with how to maintain it.

PvE Paragons are rarely targeted, and you still have 86 armor even with the condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

The Quick Shot nerf made me laugh so hard.

I had the same reaction.

Over Nine looo

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2010

NoyB

W/E

26 Jan 2010 at 19:01 - 226

I see Cripshot being nerfed worse than ever before now that it's been buffed to a more godly level. They should've left it alone. Nerfing for the sake of GvG while letting some changes apply to PvE, too? o_0 Doesn't make sense to me, but w/e.. I can understand the nerf to rangers because of Glass Arrows beefing up spikes, but you can't have two elite at once, can you? So, why nerf Quick Shot? Is it a "JIC" measure? Are they worried that R-Spikers would employ other preps and couple them with Q.Shot? *shrugs* I'm happy with the L.Reflexes change though because LR + NS made rangers pretty frustrating to attack. I don't see R/A's being addressed in this update. Blood Spike debuffing along with party-wide nerfs, and even a change in life steal sounds strangely exciting. I don't see anything new; I guess they're delivering new skills and functionalities February [or so they say..]. So all in all we've got a plethora of nerfs, one or two teeny weeny buffs, new skill changes are yet to come, and until then we must wait some more. See ya'll February!

Apok Omen

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Commence Aggro [BaMf]

Mo/E

26 Jan 2010 at 19:04 - 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by Over Nine looo

I don't see R/A's being addressed in this update.

Nerfing LR will hurt R/A's, basically making them slightly less fragile versions of SA sins.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

26 Jan 2010 at 19:11 - 228

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Quick Shot shouldn't be changed (trust me, it won't be abused in spikes mainly due to no added damage)

Trust me, if it's the last twitch attack skill without aftercast, someone will use it in a spike build.

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

26 Jan 2010 at 19:31 - 229

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Trust me, if it's the last twitch attack skill without aftercast, someone will use it in a spike build.

And that someone will be terrible at the game.

No +damage makes it worthless. It has been for years. The only people that have run it were Gamependium people who got it to the #1 spot on their website.

Redvex

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

R/

26 Jan 2010 at 19:57 - 230

Ok pvp changed but why also nerfing ranger in pve?
Oh well but they are gonna to buff warrior pve

MisterB

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

[ban]

W/

26 Jan 2010 at 20:17 - 231

Most of the ranger skill updates are PvP only.
Only Marauder's, Quick, Needling, Hunter's, Precision, Melandru's, and Crippling Shot will change in PvE. None of those are exactly useful in PvE. Sundering and Penetrating Shot(PvE) will change slightly, from 1 second activation to 3/4 + 1/2 recovery. Those 2 will effectively go from 1 second to 1.25.

The Quick Shot nerf in PvE is still absurd. It was pretty awful already, and now it has an extra half second of recovery attached.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

26 Jan 2010 at 21:04 - 232

It's not at all clear to me from the notes whether the extra cooldown on fixed-time bow attacks applies to PvE or not. If so, it's a terrible nerf to a class that's already very weak in PvE. If not, this update will have very little PvE effect.

Regarding Soldier's Fury and Quick Shot in PvE. These are already terrible skills. While it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to nerf bad skills, it also doesn't do a whole lot of harm.

Krill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

America

26 Jan 2010 at 21:31 - 233

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Nerfing LR will hurt R/A's, basically making them slightly less fragile versions of SA sins.

Meh...people are still going to keep running hoards of them in HA. SA was a strong and underused elite on primary sins before the R/A madness and won't go away without a wrecking ball to the whole template or the skill itself.

I just don't get this mentality:

Buff a bunch of useless bow attacks to 1s activation --> recognize two years later this was a problem after they have been abused every which way.

Buff a bunch of useless dagger attacks to 1/2 activation --> recognize this is a problem...when, Christmas 2011?

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

26 Jan 2010 at 21:42 - 234

Individually, the ranger nerfs seem to make some sense. However, take them as a package and this seems to me to be a stupid nerfbat out of conrol.

Xsiriss

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

26 Jan 2010 at 21:48 - 235

Ok now give us the other half. You're incredibly pathetic for splitting it two and dealing both halves very late anet.

Desert Rose

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

26 Jan 2010 at 21:51 - 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

All the bow changes feel a little overkill - a 1-1.5 second aftercast akin to interrupts would've been easier than gutting everything like this.

Doesn't ranger interrupts, like all 0.5s ranged attack skills, already have an 1.25s aftercast delay?!

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

26 Jan 2010 at 22:00 - 237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

And that someone will be terrible at the game.

No +damage makes it worthless. It has been for years. The only people that have run it were Gamependium people who got it to the #1 spot on their website.

Being able to chain three attack skills on a spike is what makes Glass Arrows rangers dangerous, not the +18 damage on Power Shot.

Revelations

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2009

Not Dead

W/

26 Jan 2010 at 22:05 - 238

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Doesn't ranger interrupts, like all 0.5s ranged attack skills, already have an 1.25s aftercast delay?!

Correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

They have a 3/4 second aftercast delay.

Incorrect. Play a dshot monk. If you miss it, you die.

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

26 Jan 2010 at 23:03 - 239

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

The Quick Shot nerf made me laugh so hard. It's almost like nerfing Signet of Removal or something....

I know. If anything, it could really use the buff in PvE.

Quote:

Actually, you're wrong. It is a buff. Sundering/Penetrating shots have a PvP/PvE skill split. They're only adding the aftercast to the PvP versions.

The PvE versions shouldn't have an aftercast....although, it still doesn't make them very good (single target damage in PvE zzzzz)

The notes they stated HIGHLY suggested that this change is universal. I can't assume either way, becuase I can see them taking it both ways, though I feel inclined to believe you on that.

Sure, they are single target, but low recharge, so still good in PvE.

jazilla

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]

E/Me

27 Jan 2010 at 01:01 - 240

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

No, cracked armor on Soldier's Fury won't hurt PvE Paragons. It will only discourage some people that play them. Cracked armor doesn't matter, but that is the chief argument against Aggressive Refrain, along with how to maintain it.

PvE Paragons are rarely targeted, and you still have 86 armor even with the condition.

I had the same reaction.

Paras in PvE need encouragement to play. Maybe if the test krewe would make them more viable in PvE you guys could keep hitting them with the nerf crotch bat some more for PvP. Seriously though, is there anything more annoying than playing a support class in PvE and not having it be versatile enough to have like 10 builds that are fun for it?