Preliminary Skill Update Notes
Mustache Mayhem
that how it goes down regulus XD with me the war is like wtf I can't damage this guy.. poof wtf he's dissapeared on me.. oh noes my monk is teh dead!
Apok Omen
To every PvEer who can't and won't read:
THIS UPDATE IS ONLY FOR GVG!!!!!!!!!
God, it's like telling a chicken to stop drowning in rain...
THIS UPDATE IS ONLY FOR GVG!!!!!!!!!
God, it's like telling a chicken to stop drowning in rain...
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Marvel-Kid
I'm sorry but.... MONTHS for just 15~ skills changed? What???? What's going on here??? I was under the impression Tactics and Hammer were going to be buffed, among other things...
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This is just a minor update to skills to attempt to even out GvG and some arenas.
tealspikes
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
So, uh....other than people complaining about dagger rangers in HA (lol?), what exactly is ANet missing with these proposed changes? I'm just curious what else is in dire need of balancing here, because I seriously thought that bloodspike, rspike, and MoI basically covered all of the current omgOPed builds.
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Earth
I suggest you 2 end the Bsurge argument if you can't keep it civil.
IrishX
BSurge really is not that bad. Without Aegis, there is nothing to prevent it from getting dshot. If you strip their attune, the ele will run out of energy very fast, since they don't run glyph anymore because AoR is amazing.
Also, GW is balanced for 8v8, not 4v4. If a skill is balanced for 8v8, Anet did it's job.
Honestly, I do not find fgust to be too horrible. Sure, you can be perma-snared with it, but it requires that person to follow you around the map to do it, which is basically trading 1 for 1. However, I do find Winter's to be completely insane. It has a fairly short recharge, and is basically weaken knees+snare. The thing that is pushing that bar over the edge is definitely MoI, though. In the past, water eles could bring snares, and all they would be are snarebots. With MoI, they can also do huge spike damage, which is a problem.
After MoI is nerfed, that template will be severely weaker, and I don't think it will need too many serious changes, other than WE. It will basically become a snarebot with minimal damage, that can be dealt with decently by stripping their attune. Glowing is decent, but it can't keep up with constant strips and if your ranger is any form of not retarded, he'll dshot it.
Also, GW is balanced for 8v8, not 4v4. If a skill is balanced for 8v8, Anet did it's job.
Honestly, I do not find fgust to be too horrible. Sure, you can be perma-snared with it, but it requires that person to follow you around the map to do it, which is basically trading 1 for 1. However, I do find Winter's to be completely insane. It has a fairly short recharge, and is basically weaken knees+snare. The thing that is pushing that bar over the edge is definitely MoI, though. In the past, water eles could bring snares, and all they would be are snarebots. With MoI, they can also do huge spike damage, which is a problem.
After MoI is nerfed, that template will be severely weaker, and I don't think it will need too many serious changes, other than WE. It will basically become a snarebot with minimal damage, that can be dealt with decently by stripping their attune. Glowing is decent, but it can't keep up with constant strips and if your ranger is any form of not retarded, he'll dshot it.
Axel Zinfandel
Why can't people understand that this isn't all their updating? aaahhh
Read, people.
Read, people.
Regulus X
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Originally Posted by IrishX
BSurge really is not that bad. Without Aegis, there is nothing to prevent it from getting dshot. If you strip their attune, the ele will run out of energy very fast, since they don't run glyph anymore because AoR is amazing.
Also, GW is balanced for 8v8, not 4v4. If a skill is balanced for 8v8, Anet did it's job. Honestly, I do not find fgust to be too horrible. Sure, you can be perma-snared with it, but it requires that person to follow you around the map to do it, which is basically trading 1 for 1. However, I do find Winter's to be completely insane. It has a fairly short recharge, and is basically weaken knees+snare. The thing that is pushing that bar over the edge is definitely MoI, though. In the past, water eles could bring snares, and all they would be are snarebots. With MoI, they can also do huge spike damage, which is a problem. After MoI is nerfed, that template will be severely weaker, and I don't think it will need too many serious changes, other than WE. It will basically become a snarebot with minimal damage, that can be dealt with decently by stripping their attune. Glowing is decent, but it can't keep up with constant strips and if your ranger is any form of not retarded, he'll dshot it. |
Nerf 1-1-1-1 lamer B.Surgers, please! For the love of GAWD! Permablind for melee is equivalent to Permadaze for casters! Offense [i.e.: Warriors] is just as important as defense [i.e.: Monks]. At least open a window of opportunity to do something about it. They need to change the recharge to 8 and cast time to 1.
Joe Hostile
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
No, it wont. This is the half ass'd pre-mAT update targeted at OP GvG skills that for some reason will only address around 10-20% of the problems.
But it took 5 months to do, so we should appreciate it. |
Fay Vert
So, if they don't want rangers to do damage, and they don't want them to do conditions, just what do they want rangers to do?
jazilla
can we just revert all skills to original uses and then balance the skills again with the proper 20/20 hindsight vision that we have after all this accumulated knowledge of the gameplay? That way, at least the meta changes for a month the game tastes like leftover pizza from the night before rather than it having mold on it. Just start over. Seems like the best idea to me.
Artisan Archer
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Originally Posted by jazilla
can we just revert all skills to original uses and then balance the skills again with the proper 20/20 hindsight vision that we have after all this accumulated knowledge of the gameplay? That way, at least the meta changes for a month the game tastes like leftover pizza from the night before rather than it having mold on it. Just start over. Seems like the best idea to me.
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tealspikes
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Originally Posted by Fay Vert
So, if they don't want rangers to do damage, and they don't want them to do conditions, just what do they want rangers to do?
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jazilla
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Originally Posted by Artisan Archer
Except, now everybody already knows which builds are overpowered so your idea doesn't change anything from the current situation.
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IrishX
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Originally Posted by jazilla
thats why i said you make the changes after the first month of watching that over again. it's like starting from scratch but with hindsight.
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tealspikes
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Originally Posted by jazilla
thats why i said you make the changes after the first month of watching that over again. it's like starting from scratch but with hindsight.
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, but If it takes them 5 months to fix shit now, then I doubt they would be able to keep up with what your suggesting.edt: sig ghostly might was a bug, not the intended function of the skill
Axel Zinfandel
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Originally Posted by Joe Hostile
Care to mention what you perceive the other 80-90% of the problem skills/builds in GvG to be? If you'd like to be helpful, then I'd suggest you start a thread HERE listing those issues out to be discussed with the rest of the GvG community so they can be identified and considered. Thanks.
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Giga_Gaia
I agree with Regulus. If they acknowledge that ranged blind spamming is a problem, then why only change EDA? BSurge needs to be toned down.
lutz
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
Btw, are they not going to take a look at R/A builds (or SWay)?
Rather than nerf all these ranger spike skills they could easily just adjust a few numbers, make expertise work only for bow attacks, and be done with it. |
Also: Since when have R/A's been anywhere close to imbalanced with Escape gone?
Martin Alvito
EDA was hacks in Codex. It broke the format every day it appeared.
There were worse problems than BSurge in RA. The real issue with playing melee in RA is that there are so many viable ways to hate on melee effectively.
There were worse problems than BSurge in RA. The real issue with playing melee in RA is that there are so many viable ways to hate on melee effectively.
byteme!
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
EDA was hacks in Codex. It broke the format every day it appeared.
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Oh well.
Krill
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Originally Posted by lutz
Also: Since when have R/A's been anywhere close to imbalanced with Escape gone? |
jazilla
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Originally Posted by Krill
Not that you would care but the SA R/As are still big problem in HA, even more so than the Escape R/As were. They are now incorporated into practically every build one way or another. I don't really see any possible defense for them, anet does these stupid buffs trying to get certain classes (like sins) into GvG and when it fails they never fix the fallout into other formats.
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Krill
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Originally Posted by jazilla
This is exactly what I am talking about. Reset all of the skills for ONE month back to their original forms.
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Sifow Chan
Always hurting the Paragons because of other professions.
Barrage
Ok really, this is just the "What is nerfed" section of the notes right? Where are the buffs, I mean really.
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by lutz
Also: Since when have R/A's been anywhere close to imbalanced with Escape gone?
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Originally Posted by jazilla
I hear way more complaining about how the game isn't fun anymore, or it's broken etc. why not start over,
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jazilla
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Originally Posted by Krill
While that may sound kinda fun, don't forget about some of the skills that actually have been fixed. For example, bad as sway is in the HA meta again it, sway builds were insanely powerful before the nerfs to soul reaping, protective was kaolai, weapon of warding, splinter weapon and warmongers weapon. Some other skills that come to mind are watch yourself, shields up, signet of humility, mantra of inscriptions, strength of honor, signet of judgment, balthazar's pendulum, rend enchantments, ineptitude, ballad / song of resto, harrier's toss...well you get the idea. There have been a lot of "old" skills that were fixed the the last few years. The problem lies entirely now with skill buffs that were poorly designed (seemingly at random), poorly implemented (many at a time) and even more poorly balanced (slowly, if ever).
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lutz
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Originally Posted by Krill
Not that you would care but the SA R/As are still big problem in HA, even more so than the Escape R/As were. They are now incorporated into practically every build one way or another. I don't really see any possible defense for them, anet does these stupid buffs trying to get certain classes (like sins) into GvG and when it fails they never fix the fallout into other formats.
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Giga_Gaia
Problem is that R/A's can still pack plenty of survival since they only need to keep spamming 123-123 to kill something.
DarkNecrid
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Originally Posted by Barrage
Ok really, this is just the "What is nerfed" section of the notes right? Where are the buffs, I mean really.
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-A lot of the skills in that list that are getting nerfed were skills that were buffed within the past year.
-Buffs (well at least ArenaNets) have tended to actually remove more skills from being viable than actually making more skills viable. (look at all the Elite Skill changes, etc)
-It's a lot easier & safer to nerf something that is a problem than buff something to counter the problem. Something being nerfed badly isn't a real annoyance to anybody except people who can only use that one thing to win, something being buffed too much is annoying for everybody because EVERYONE runs the overpowered skill(s) and that is a problem because it makes the game too repetitive etc.
Don't buff just because "no buffs?".
That just leads to ArenaNet nerfing them again a cpuple months down the road.
Nimble Night
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Originally Posted by IrishX
Honestly, I do not find fgust to be too horrible. Sure, you can be perma-snared with it, but it requires that person to follow you around the map to do it, which is basically trading 1 for 1.
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Originally Posted by IrishX
However, I do find Winter's to be completely insane. It has a fairly short recharge, and is basically weaken knees+snare.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IrishX
The thing that is pushing that bar over the edge is definitely MoI
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Originally Posted by IrishX
After MoI is nerfed, that template will be severely weaker, and I don't think it will need too many serious changes, other than WE. It will basically become a snarebot with minimal damage, that can be dealt with decently by stripping their attune. Glowing is decent, but it can't keep up with constant strips and if your ranger is any form of not retarded, he'll dshot it.
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Krill
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Originally Posted by lutz
I thought the best defense against squishy frontline characters with halfway-decent DPS is to just kill them?
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At any rate you're not really addressing the issue, which is fast activation attack skills, shattering assault and expertise. The same "just kill gimmicky frontline" argument could have been made about palm sins, yet they too were completely broken with flail and the first iteration of palm strike (80dmg, 14s cripple, 4s recharge).
HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by byteme!
No one cares about Codex. Let it die. For the 50 or so random people who do care.......
Oh well. |
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Couldn't part of the reason why nobody cares about Codex be because of stupidly OP skills in that format?
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1) 4v4 is inheriently imbalanced in GW. It's not just a handful of problem skills.
2) Reward for codex grinding is crap if you're in the bottom 80% that can't score 5 in a row. After those people leave then the next bottom 80% is in the same situation. Every other format gives mediocre players something to grind: glad points from luck, faction win or lose from the factions modes, fame from HA, rating from GvG.
3) FotM copy-paste are the bread and butter of pugs. Having to actually think about and coordinate a new build everyday is just too much for pugging.
4) The point of codex is to come up with your own builds, but usually it's just better to copy what everyone else is doing. You have to go in and lose several times before you figure out what that is... meaning even more time before you can "really" play, and you miss most of the creativity the format is supposed to promote.
People put waaay to much emphasis on skill balance as the solution to all PvP problems. "Balancedway" has been dominant in HA for a while, it's the HoH objectives that are generally boring. Even as people shift to "honor" balance with their pblock bots, the gvg tiebreaker is still dumb. It is not contagian that is overpowered in JQ but the fast rezzes that reward suiciding. I don't need to even start on the issues in FA.
Regulus X
If Anet tested skill changes themselves [while having a good overall knowledge of all the skills in-game to know whether or not there'll be some window(s) of abuse] and went live with them thereafter, then there'd be no need to nerf said buffed skills. I think it's utterly lazy and inconsiderate of them to just re-nerf them to a far worse state than it had been before the buff took place. That's just my two cents.
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
it's the HoH objectives that are generally boring. Even as people shift to "honor" balance with their pblock bots, the gvg tiebreaker is still dumb. It is not contagian that is overpowered in JQ but the fast rezzes that reward suiciding. I don't need to even start on the issues in FA.
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GvG instituted a tiebreaker to resolve the problem of intentional draws, which effectively swatted a fly with a hammer. (IDing the last round of a mAT isn't a huge deal; it has some limited distributional consequences and that's it. Just reward two teams that draw with a loss in single elim and they'll take some risks, I promise.)
FA and JQ had bad objectives from the start.
lemming
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
GvG instituted a tiebreaker to resolve the problem of intentional draws, which effectively swatted a fly with a hammer. (IDing the last round of a mAT isn't a huge deal; it has some limited distributional consequences and that's it. Just reward two teams that draw with a loss in single elim and they'll take some risks, I promise.)
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Martin Alvito
Yes, now that you mention it, you're right. Because under the old system, it wouldn't have been possible to ID (except through /resign spike, which isn't rational).
Random variance at the stand would have led to one GL or the other winning most times.
The impetus for the tiebreaker was the continued compression of VoD to speed up ATs, no? Changing the incentives (ladder rating vs. single-elim) mid-stream to accommodate a tournament format created cause to play for VoD. As you compress the pre-VoD portion of the match, playing to VoD just becomes more and more attractive.
But eventually as players begin to stall (and play more defensively) you hit a wall where things may not be wrapped up by when the timer expires.
Random variance at the stand would have led to one GL or the other winning most times.
The impetus for the tiebreaker was the continued compression of VoD to speed up ATs, no? Changing the incentives (ladder rating vs. single-elim) mid-stream to accommodate a tournament format created cause to play for VoD. As you compress the pre-VoD portion of the match, playing to VoD just becomes more and more attractive.
But eventually as players begin to stall (and play more defensively) you hit a wall where things may not be wrapped up by when the timer expires.
tealspikes
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Originally Posted by IrishX
Honestly, I do not find fgust to be too horrible. Sure, you can be perma-snared with it, but it requires that person to follow you around the map to do it, which is basically trading 1 for 1.
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Originally Posted by Nimble Night
The main problem I have with Winter's Embrace is that there are already 2 non-elite spammable snares, (FGust and Shard Storm), buffing a 3rd makes the bar practically immune to shut-down. On top of this its only 5e, which is pretty stupid. Due to all these retardedly cheap and spammable snares, the only way to shut the bar down is to Powerblock it. I have never liked this skill as it puts far too much emphasis on your ping, (or interrupt bot). To deal with this pretty much everyone has switched to fast cast water eles again.
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