noobs in UW/FoW

That's the kind of attitude that has killed/is killing the game.

Then pick smarter

I seem to not have an issue finding guilds with talented people...I usually leave over some stupid argument...or because a shift in my desires out of the game...check out the guilds before you join...this site is a wonderful resource to find them...most guilds post their sites...go check out their sites...when one looks right join it...

It does not pay for PuGs to help people out. They get no benefit for gimping themselves. It can pay for a guild to help newer members out, but not for PuGs. I even said the only feasible way for newer players to get help is to join guilds. I've been saying that for over a year now especially when talking about PvP.

It isn't a random PuGs job to hold your hand. They have their own goals and agenda and a newer player does not help achieve that goal. If a newer player wants to play an elite area, then find a guild that will be patient with you. Don't expect PuGs to drop everything and be the "nice guy."

No, Guild Wars being old and stale is what killed the game. The impatience of the newer players wanting to be handed everything is what killed the game. People caring about the ends and ignoring the means is what killed the game.

The guy who has lead 1000 successful UW PuGs and refuses to let newer players join in isn't killing the game. The top 100 guilds refusing to recruit someone with no GvG experience isn't killing the game. The r9 PuGs not letting the r0's in their group isn't killing the game. Its the attitude of the player not wanting to work to get better and instead get by on someone else's accomplishments that is killing the game.

lol. Like speed clears and the ends huh?

Not every new player wants things handed to them. Doesn't hurt to show people the ropes.

I can play with people who know what they are doing and complete the UW in a good amount of time, or I can take an inexperienced player, spend time trying to explain everything to him, and chances are he/she won't be able to hold their weight and may in fact cause my group to fail and waste a lot of time.

A person can play HA with other people at his/her level, and have a good chance of getting to halls and even holding it amassing a lot of fame in the hour or so they want to play it. Or they can take someone with little to no experience at all and try to tell him/her how they should be playing their role, and there will be a high chance the person will be completely terrible and they won't be able to win more than a few games gaining maybe 5-10 fame depending on how long they stick with it in comparison to the 50-60 they probably would have gotten with a team of experienced players.

I could keep going but the example is the same for every area. It does hurt your group if you have to stop and show someone the ropes. Like I've already said, it isn't the PuGs job to do that at this point in the game. Find a guild and have them teach you. That is what they are for.

you sir, are a prime example of the cancer killing this game.

With all due respect sir, no I am not.

Lets just use PvP as an example because it is what I am most familiar with.

A PvEr decides he is bored of title grinding and wants to GvG. He has Obs'd some matches and thinks it looks like fun. His favorite guild is [rawr]. He goes to rawrs forums and sees that they have a recruitment thread. He asks for [rawr] to recruit him because he wants to play and learn from the best. [rawr] tells him they are not recruiting at this time and he isn't what the team is looking for, but thanks him for his interest.

The guy is upset because they won't let him play with them, but decides to try another guild. He pm's a top 200 guild who had a recruitment thread here on guru. They tell him he doesn't have the experience required to play at their level. The guy gets even more frustrated because he's been rejected twice.

The guy then makes a QQ thread here on guru complaining no one will let him play because he doesn't have the experience, but he can't get the experience because (here we come full circle) they won't let him play. He then goes about calling everyone an elitist jerk and says they are ruining Guild Wars.

People then tell him to find a guild of people with similar play experience. He then says there are none. He lies, because there are guilds out there for people just starting off, he just never took the time to look. He finally decides to search and finds a guild that lets him play.

While playing, the guild losses, and they lose a lot. The guy gets upset and quits playing because everyone else on the team is obviously terrible and holding him back. He then holds a grudge against all PvPrs and goes around calling everyone an elitist jackass.

You see, the problem here isn't rawr for not taking him when he wanted to play for them, the problem was him trying to start off way above his level. The problem was him not willing to play with other people just as bad and new as him and take the necessary losses in order to improve himself as a player. The problem is his attitude about expecting other people to sacrifice their goals, in order to help him meet his.

If a player wants to get better, it is that players responsibility to get better. It isn't my responsibility to make him better, it isn't your responsibility to make him better, it's his. Wanna start GvGing? Then find a GvG guild for players just starting off. Wanna start HAing? then find a guild for players just starting off. Wanna learn how to do the UW? Then find a guild that will help you learn.

My attitude isn't killing Guild Wars. People not wanting to work to meet their goals is what is killing Guild Wars. People refusing to take the necessary steps to improve oneself is what is killing Guild Wars. People wanting to cut corners is what is killing Guild Wars.

so, let me get this straight....I have never completed the UW ...so I would consider my self inexperienced (dont know which term ya'll would use noob/newb) I have done good portions of it, however, never the whole thing at one go (and never a speed clear!)

I am very willing to learn, however; it has been suggested that I would need to leave the guild I have been part of for 4+ years (its my husbands guild not much of a choice to stay or go) in order to find a guild that is willing to teach me the areas that I have never been to? I am highly capable of listening to directions (and yes I know not to take the quests until explicitly told to do so and which ones)....yet since I have no experience doing a SC or even completing it, I stand a better chance at getting hit by lightning than getting into a pug to complete the underworld (no need to do so for the fow---its easy to complete with heroes and my husband).

Yeah, makes me want to tell people I'm a noob/newb.
(and yes I have no delusions of grandeur that I will ever get to complete it either....no wont be happening with the elitism I am seeing)

congratulations on blowing it completely out of proportion, and indeed you did. i'm not saying a guild like i dunno, GS should take people who have no idea what they're doing, i'm saying people who have some idea what's going on should be willing to help others get up to speed, not completely shun them and leave them to figure things out on their own.

like the time i spent trying to teach an ally how to play hammer warrior last night, i could have been getting glad points, or pugging ha, but i pissed away time in scrims trying to teach someone some good technique, did i have to? of course not, but but he was interested and willing to learn, so it was worth the time. however, many players who want to get into new things just don't find people willing to help at all, which is pretty much killing pvp, and generally the game as a whole.

Also, TL;DR

Your conclusion does not follow from the tale you told. You recite the problems, then you assert your theory about why they occurred, but you present no evidence or reasoning linking the two together. Moreover, when the noob finally does as your theory says he should in order to improve, he fails, and fails to ever improve. To me, that would imply that your theory is wrong. At the very least, it's useless, because it does not offer any insight into solving the problem.

/Hear hear

so true!

It's craziness, I know, but I learned how to do most of the elite areas with PUGs, managed not to bring painful death to my groups, and never once asked for a thesis on the zone's topology.

Joining a guild is a nice suggestion but it's not a binary choice between joining a guild or "gimping" your fellow players.

I happen to have a guild and alliance with both oldtimers and new people. We got high pve ambitions and ppl willing to show the ropes. 2 days ago we decided to try uw. Team with only 2 uw oldbies, 5 half or full newbs and a hero, nm. We got halfway through but failed after reaper of the ice wastes got killed due to a unfortunate d/c at worst possible time.
Yesterday it was fow time, 2 oldbies, 4 newbies,2 heroes. We finished neat and elegant.
We want to play for fun with friends, and we got the patience. One of the days to come we will also complete uw with a handful of newbs on the team. Ofc we have newbs, not n00bs, i.e. our newbs are listening to what's being told and enjoy being on a team just like we all do.
Later when we have created a few more experienced ppl we will ofc swap to HM, and urgoz/deep/doa are on the list too aswell as slavers etc.

I have a theory about why so many seem to be complete idiots and dont listen to instructions. Language. The european districts are often deserted, not only spanish, polish etc but also english. People migrate to american district to find others to play with. So you will find your share of people who simply are unable to understand english, aswell as your share of immature kids.
My advice is, if you are leading a team, take the time to chat to people and kick if they doesnt reply. No one can expect any good chance of success if you just slap together a random band. Its worth it spending 10-20 more minutes creating team if you can avoid a failure.
Please note that my style is the regular chatty relaxed team, not the speedclear style.
It is obvious that speedclears need stricter discipline since its easier to fail, there is no room for fooling around.

My final advice to uw/fow newbies would be to open pvxwiki, load some build and 3 heroes. Go NM and focus on exploring, (also open the regular wiki and view the maps and descriptions of the places ofc) you can get far with that. In uw do the opening quest clear the chamber and go explore other areas. In FOW you just need to ensure Rastigan doesnt die and you have access to almost the entire place. Once you know the normal monsters in each region its much easier to try out some quests and participate on a team and advance. You will also learn why its a bad idea to attack the wailing lord in fow or taking unwanted guest quest in uw without proper preparation etc. It will require time and money for several entrance fees, but you might even get a shard or ecto while learning

SS LFG UWSC terraway, will provide cons/entry fee.

I have never been in a UWSC group, but have played some solo UW runs, with a 50+ FOWSC runs as a MOP.

Unexperienced, yes. Willing to learn, yes. Feel free to PM

show stones!!!!!
lol

That's poor thinking. A dwindling playerbase is all the more reason to help and educate newer players, if just because these newer players might be your experienced teammates three months from now when some of those experienced players you now prefer will have left the game.

Bragging is a sure sign that the opposite of what is claimed is actually true.

I hate that word, 'noob', when people start yelling that in team/all chat you know the group is going to break up.

Not having experience in a certain area is not, should not, be a problem when there are some players who do know their way around - and you know your way around in PvE. What is a problem is claiming you have lots and lots of experience in that area, when in fact you have none.

If joining a PuG on the spot fails you might try forming one through Guru's forum PUGs and Grouping. Make a smaller group if you can't find 8 players and add heroes to fill the gaps, read the wiki articles on the area's, their inhabitants and the quests.

You're calling other people noobs, but taking a "tank" to UW, and complaining that he isn't a "tank"?

I blew nothing out of proportion because that is exactly what the thread is about. People with no experience, lying to get into groups and then completely ruining the PuGs chance of success.

Helping an ally learn to play hammer warrior is completely different then taking some random guy you'll likely never meet again, and trying to teach him what to do. I'm not against helping people. Hell, that's all I did when I played was help people break into GvG. But that is because I was the leader of a GvG team in a primarily PvE guild for over a year. I'd take with me whoever wanted to play and help them out. But when I left that guild to improve my own ability, it was no longer feasible to take newcomers along because they simply will hold everyone else back.

That is what the whole argument is about. People trying to play above their level, and in the case of UW, people lying about their experience to get into groups that normally would require more than what the person can offer.

And to the person that said my story's ending contradicted itself, reread it. The point I was making is that the attitude of not wanting to put in the necessary work to achieve your goal is what ruined the game and has caused no new bloods to join. The kid wanted to be a high ranked player in GvG. In order to do that, you start at the bottom, take a ton of losses, and learn to play the game. The kid tried to start off at the top and was rejected. When he finally stopped complaining about it, and found a guild at his level, he wasn't willing to put in the work to get the reward. His guild lost a lot (which you are supposed to) and he couldn't take it. He immediately started blaming everyone else, and now hates everything PvP related. The point is, it isn't anyone's fault but his own. He didn't really have the ambition to play PvP in the first place. He wanted all the glory, but none of the responsibility that goes along with it. That isn't just a problem in Guild Wars, its a problem in real life, and in American society in general. Too many people want the reward without having to do the work.

the secret to getting groups as a noob is just chilling back and following what everyone else does. you don't need make a splash your first few times in... just be passive.
I'm currently in the process of learning to run bonder in DoA (w/ Guild) so I'm kinda in the same situation, just play with your head and listen to what the leader has to say.

It would be much easier for people to learn the layout and experience the quests if Anet would simply allow Henchmen into the elite areas (fow, uw, deep, urgoz, doa). No only that, but it would allow those of us who already have the experience to do these areas how we want, rather than in speed clear groups all the time...

Totally agree with this. I ran w/ an experienced group in UW pre-nerf as a necro vale. But I also made sure I knew the route had the skills and made sure I knew my role. I was upfront with this and the guys were pretty cool with it. And after a couple of successful runs I'd ask if I can put them on my friends list, and would pm them if I see them and ask if I can roll with the guys again. They were super patient and eventually I started learning all the other roles and would pass on what I knew to others because I too was once a noob. Only way ppl can experience the high end stuff is to teach what you know. It shouldn't be a secret.

well this person's point of view about sums up mine, i am a vetern player, guild leader [ almost 5 yrs] and have only completed the UW 3 times [killed Dhuum], but yet when i attempt to join PuG's , well lets just say it's not pleasant. some of the elitest/epeen comments posted here are really whats got me more upset. grouping used to be a real pleasure in this game. Cheers

I am pretty much of the same mind as the two posters above me. UW or FoW players especially the ones who have 0 patience dont get that if you dont teach new players you put them right off the game and the bottom line is, this game needs new players to survive up until GW2 is released.

Its dissapointing to see that some players and even some posters on this thread come accross as arrogant elitists, however thats the nature of a great deal of players in GW whether it be pve or pvp.

I like Ravens post. I am along the same lines as cosy also. I have done parts of UW/FoW, but it was never the pace I camped out at (always playing with friends elsewhere etc) so I am also inexperienced there.
There is a clear separation it seems of people who want to SC and people who want to go for enjoyment. this doesnt mean the people doing it for fun dont want to succeed, just that it isnt the be all and end all. I remember some of my most fun times were trapping down there for spiders with ex guildmates while on ventrilo. Yes, we had some mess ups at times, but that was part of the mickey taking out of each other.

Less people seem to want to spend an extra hour to finish something these days it seems - maybe thats what happens at this life stage of a game, Im not sure - but I do know if I ever got a group of people in game that enjoyed it, then I would welcome the fun, even if it took a couple of extra con sets

noob=/=newb
one will listen and take advice, the other does as they want with no regard for the group.

If you're willing to listen and take advice from the more experienced players, you'll do fine. Don't lie about your exp, just don't mention it at all. The only problem is sc groups, but thats a whole other issue.

I have been playing GW off and on since the beginning. I usually play solo.

This is the usual order of how things go for me. I get bored playing solo and wish to hit the higher endgame areas. (especially DOA) I try and pug it or if possible (doa is not) h&h it. Neither works out too well. I then look for a guild. I usually go for the friendly guild looking for ads...

Most people in these guilds have been indeed friendly. Well meaning and it does allow for some socializing. But, of course my desire in joining was in the hope of gaining exp in the higher end areas.

Because I am honest I get excluded. I never have and never will tell people I have experience when in fact I do not. Quite honestly, I am just not that good at some this. Like the solo W/N build for the Raptors...man I suck...lmao

But, if given a chance I am sure I would eventually be good enough in the 8 men high end areas.

No one wants my inexperienced Warrior though. So I state to the guild mates that this is what i go through every time. Usually some of the more elitist types start to tell me to quit complaining and whining. They also usually tell me to make a different character as a warrior is too limited.

So I then thank them for their time and leave guild.

I have done this at least 6 or 7 times over these past few years.

Look, I play to have entertainment and fun. If it becomes something other than those two things then why play? That is my take anyways. I will not stress out over these things.

I never look for something handed to me. But, the reason a guild should be in existence is to allow EVERYONE in the guild to experience more of the game than they could other wise do solo.

Excluding people for inexperience or "wrong characters" is just flat out wrong.

I am Deris Malabar and I endorse this message...lmao

Thanks for the support. I feel sorry for the newer players because there are so many elitist snobs in the game.

Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that sometimes you really just want to clear an area and clear it FAST!!! You don't want newbies dragging you down and you really aren't in the mood to teach the new kid. That's fine. Then grab some guildies and close friends and go. Don't stand around town yelling "GLF 2 more permas!!!!! NO NOOBS OR RETARDS!!!!" If you're pugging then you get what you get. Check them out before warping in. If you don't then blame your team leader and not the noob.

I will also concede that a newbie should never lie about their experience. They're only shooting themselves in the foot if they do. It's a rarity to be able to say you're an expert in an area you've never been in and have your team not realize you're lying before the trip is over. However the GW community is so hostile towards newbies that many feel lying is the only way to get ahead.

Sure you can research the area on wiki and youtube and that's a excellent idea for the new player that wants to learn, but at some point you need actual practice with your build in the UW and since a full team is require for that practice, you need to find players willing to give you a chance.

The argument that most have used is to just find a guild. Well for me, I have a guild that I've been in for more than 3 years now. They're a great bunch of guys and I'm not leaving. However they rarely form teams for the Elite areas. Does this mean I can't clear UW ever? I'm not a noob yet I face the same hostility from pugs just because I've never speed cleared.

I've been in the UW many times and I'm familiar with all the quests. However I've never done a SC. The perma build just doesn't appeal to me and monking is out of the question. I've cleared the UW before maybe around 3 or 4 times (Once since Dhuum appeared). I'm not totally clueless but I'm not an expert either and I know I can't cope with the Ice Wastes quest without some good experienced leader telling me right where to stand. Each clear was with a balanced team.

FOW is different. I've cleared that perhaps 20 to 30 times by myself with 6 heroes in tow. (2 accts) To me it's easy. I don't do speed clears though. I take my time and my heroes don't mind if I take an hour lunch break.

Yet i'm still lumped in with the other "noobs" because I have no speed clear experience. I hope some balanced teams return to TOA.

I've done UW NM/HM a couple times since I started nearly 4 years ago. Done FoW God knows how many times, used to be my fave place. I was fortunate enough when my r/l best friend and since-beta Guild Leader left to concentrate on his music career, to be immediately poached from my dead 2-man guild into a very well established guild with a lot of experience.

I concede that a lot won't be lucky enough to have this happen. In all honesty though, it wasn't really luck, so much as social engineering that got me noticed and poached. I think that in all the posts in this thread, that aspect has not been touched on nearly enough. Remember the old saying:

In an online, anonymous and basically faceless world like the internet, Social Engineering is quite possibly the most important part.

Sit in ToA every day. Build a rapport with the people there. Get to know them, and let them get to know you. You're going to get a group. It's as simple as that. The alternative, sit in ToA, don't say a word. - Who's even going to know you exist? No-one.

I'm not elite. I make no bones about saying that. The things in GW that I know how to do, I do well, but I don't consider that "Elite" as such. Just experienced at the things I do. I have no drama's giving out builds, never have kept builds secret, either here or previously in NwN. My builds, probably not the best, but they work, reliably. When people ask me to teach them things, i.e. Raptors on Ranger, War, Necro, Ele, ToPK farming etc, I take the time to show em, explain how it works, the best gear to use, the best methods (that I've found personally) to go about it.

Ultimately my point is, get out there, get in the public eye, get yourself known, and you'll get dragged along all over the place regardless of level of experience. Add Wiki, stir well, MMMMMM!!! Tasty! Don't be afraid to spend the time you would have spent playing once or twice a week, to research your foes, and their homes.

I can't really add any more to that. I'm sure the nay-sayers out there will find something to pick on out of this, I say "Meh." There's more than just one group of people in GW, and assholes can and should, be ignored with the contempt they deserve. Not everyone in GW is an asshole, but you'll never know that if you don't get out and get to know em all.

Not everyone is in a 100+ member guild. In fact most guilds are very small if its for active players. A couple of friends sticking together to play now and than. So no, a guild is mostly NOT the place to get this experience... Unless you want everyone to join a mega guild, and delete all smaller guilds. Sounds no good to me.

and not to be mean but some times the more active/large guilds arent full of nice people. i've been in both and both had the good/bad about them.

You have to understand group dynamics to understand why many teams have no patience for bad play or educating players. A team's patience for education and poor play is that of the least patient player. The team is only as strong as its weakest link. If you cannot hold your own as well as someone else could, you are wasting the time of seven other players. Odds are that one of the seven players has little patience for wasted time.

While the game itself would be improved by the patient education of new players, the impatient player's experience is not. The most impatient player in a team is usually a strong player. That confers some bargaining leverage; the impatient player can usually demand that a quality team take only strong players, and threaten to leave the group as the punishment for failure to comply. This is just as true in PvE as it is in GvG or HA.

This is the hard truth of online gaming. It doesn't matter how good you are. What matters is how good you are perceived to be by the players that assemble teams. If you're the best Monk/Ranger/Mesmer/Warrior in the game and no one knows about it, you won't get groups. As a rule, players figure out who is good and who is bad over time. But there are always exceptions.

I once decided to earn a fame point for fun and do some pvp. I joined a group as a monk, pinged my bar, all was good. Then they asked me to flash my animal rank. So I flashed them my panda pet and they booted me! Jerks... Panda beats tiger or deer anyday!

Getting back to UW, until they actually nerf SF, pugs/noobs/non speed clear build characters need not apply. The skill changes did the opposite of what they intended.

You killed my 600 monk, I kill a panda: part 1

Smooth mate what can I say.

I'll preface this by saying that I've had issues with getting into UW groups as well, but not particularly because of "experience", but because I'm not looking to do a speed-clear and play a Ranger.

But ultimately, my response is directed at some of the main issues I see brought up in this discussion. I know this is fairly tangential, but I feel like posting my feelings on the subject.

I know its not exactly a new phenomenon, but it's depressing that the community has become so antisocial and businesslike that everything is relegated to "success" or "failure" without any apparent enjoyment in actually playing the game.

Is it annoying to fail? Sure; but I don't believe that alone should make time spent seem "wasted". However because the majority of the population, especially in end-game areas, seem to regard other players as, at best, tools to achieve a specific goal, the game's atmosphere degenerates into something awkward, systematic, and to me at least, unpleasant. People simply want to achieve goal "X", will thus only want to play with others that they feel will contribute to "X", and really have no interest in them beyond their capacity to aid in achieving "X". And it is this failure of the social aspect that I believe contributes significantly to such a wedge being driven in the game.

I know that making such a blanket statement is going to draw ire, but that's simply how things in-game appear to have become to me. I'm well aware that alot of it has to do with the game's age, but the lack of interest in the community itself BY the members of the community strike me as being the biggest issue.

As for the inevitable response that PuGs aren't for social interaction and that it is something to keep to guilds, well, personally that is a major issue I have WITH guilds, actually; they splinter the community. Essentially, rather than playing with members of the entire community, looking for people that you particularly enjoy playing with, and forming regular groups with them, you're basically locked into joining a guild from the start. It doesn't matter how good a guild is, to me, it's the individual members of a community that I care about. Thus, I'm not just looking to join a guild because my individual playstyle is "X", and the guild's members will facilitate that. No... What I'm looking for are the members of the community that I most enjoy interacting with as a whole. And as such, I'd like to readily play with the whole community rather than one tiny subset of it. And the guild mentality completely kills this. In general, once someone joins a guild they deem satisfactory, it seems that "the guild" takes priority and little regard is paid to the rest of the population at that point.

I await all of the responses contradicting my points and say simply that this is how the game appears to me IN GENERAL. Obviously, there are exceptions and this is probably one of the bleakest interpretations of the situation.

Ultimately, certain aspects of the game's design seem to have partially lead things to where they are, but like everything else, at this point, they're not really something that can be changed. In truth though, I've already accepted that things are how they are and that they're not going to change. The current situation has essentially killed any enjoyment I get from the game and it saddens me to think of what the game COULD be with a more social community.

TLDR: "Success"-obsessed, antisocial community + Fragmented community in general = Bad. Having fun while actually playing and interacting with the community in general = Good.

It only takes 2 people to do UW - if you can't find a single friend to do UW with, something is wrong and it might not be the system.

2 people now? really? got a screen shot and any tips? been thinking of a setup for a full clear but no luck with heros.

The game is 5 years old, lots of people (especially people who have been playing for years) play the game to win at what they're doing, not take time to help random new people out. Welcome to online communities in old, declining games.

I don't play a lot anymore, but when I play I want to have fun, and losing is not fun. I want to complete whatever I'm doing without much trouble, I don't want to take new players, teach them how to do it, do it slowly and possibly wipe. Call me an elitist snob if you'd like, but the ugly truth is that if you're new coming into this game, it's going to be a hell of a tough time, and it's going to be even tougher if you can't build a solid friends list. You can't really expect anything else.

don't listen to arky he's just angry coz he's canadian and missing teeth.

i'm sure newbies can find nice carebear pve groups that will hold your hand while you slay the demons of fow/uw.

LOL your e-peen is showing...glad to see when someone doesnt play the way you do, they're wrong and shouldnt have ever played in the first place, makes perfect sense

>__> honestly if all people look for is fast cash then there is no way a player in a smaller guild can get into UW without lying about experience.

They are noobs yes, but theres a bit of a paradox here

You need to be experienced to do UW and FoW, BUT in order to get experience YOUNEED TO DO FoW AND UW....see the problem?

Quit the QQ Its gunna happen anyways, as long as a standard is held, and i can understand why people dont want noobs, but what other choice are they given, give them some slack, they just want to learn how the hell to do something.

I haven't logged into the game since they added dhumm so I can't comment on him but nothing special is required to do the quests leading up to the battle. From memory we have used earthshaker + mop/ap as the humans and 2xhybrid monk + Channeling rit + HEV Mes + ToF Para + SF Ele. Some things like HEV have been nerfed since then but you've gained access to eotn pve skills, consumables and your heroes can see the ghosts (and therefor heal without micromanagement) so it should more than balance out.