PvE EASY MODE: General PHYSWAY
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard
How does the OotV build maintain orders and SoH while using hex/condition removal given that there is a cap on SR?
I never heard a necro complain about energy while running this build, but it is apparently a huge problem.
Decent SR rank plus SoLS just works.
I have seen hero builds powered by Cultists or Angro Gaze (or both), but I find it overkill.
Quote: Originally Posted by Athrun Feya
so...27e every 15 seconds
blood bond = 5e
x3 oov = 15e
that leaves 7 energy remove all hexes and conditions your party might have over 15seconds. 1. Use enchant mod. Lowers OoV to 15sec * 5e/6sec = 12.5e over 15sec.
2. Use SoLS. Adds 15sec * 6e/8.25sec = 10.90...e in 15sec.
Looks more like ~20e available to burn over 15sec.
Also, note that FoulFeast can cost less than 5e, or even give energy -- if you choose that for removal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard
Quote:
Since OoP is buffed by things like scan, do you think it is enough to outweigh the benefits of lifesteal? In addition, you can also bring Dark Fury.
I pretty much have to agree with Xeno that the diffuse healing is really quite valuable.
Especially with the attack speed on the sins, its a very efficient heal. That keeps the ER's from having to Infuse to clean up non-critical damage, which frees them to cast more Spirit Bonds -- which, in turn, keeps bars full and takes even more pressure off -- and to cast more GDW -- which in turn KDs more enemies and takes more pressure off, while doing damage too. It also keeps the sins from even thinking about needing to kite or otherwise stop attacking to avoid taking further damage. In sum, it keeps the balance of things "on the front foot," as Ensign would say.
Also, it's something to fall back on if one or both of the ER's gets their energy spiked down. Stacked with Blood Bond, it gives the sins a better shot at surviving long enough for ER to come back up. (And also encourages them to kill rather than kite.)
The added damage for OoP over OoV with Scan is 17*.75=12.75 per hit. And with Scan and BuH 20.1875 per hit. That's not trivial. In fact, it's a huge amount of damage given 3 or 4 sins with their ridiculously compressed attack speeds. The question is whether it's worth giving up a heal of 17 per hit to get that damage. I agree with Xeno that the general answer is "no," though I could be convinced otherwise for areas where the pressure facing the ER's is so low that they'll be Infusing out of boredom anyway.
As for Dark Fury:
1. Mark of Fury is a much better substitute now than it was before. Assuming people stay on target, it's got ~75% as much adr gain (1.5x as much adr with 0.5x the uptime), plus the cracked armor if the target somehow survives 5 sec.
2. The only adr skill the sins have is SY!, which they can maintain reasonably well simply by chain casting (or randomly spamming) based on their silly attack speed alone.
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
@Maxx, I thought we were comparing mop vs splinter, not mop+splinter
ok fair enough, ill edit my post a little to make it easier to read.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone on pvx
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Could have done better if I wasn't the only one bonding and had a OoV/SoH buffer instead of a fifth physical.
It was a fun run anyway. Only reason I used a grail was due to having to bond everyone alone (sadface). No nabs died in the making of this screenshot.
"PvX: Because only idiots actually test builds" GG?
Derps. I'll answer your....statement by quoting myself.Especially with the attack speed on the sins, its a very efficient heal. That keeps the ER's from having to Infuse to clean up non-critical damage, which frees them to cast more Spirit Bonds -- which, in turn, keeps bars full and takes even more pressure off -- and to cast more GDW -- which in turn KDs more enemies and takes more pressure off, while doing damage too. It also keeps the sins from even thinking about needing to kite or otherwise stop attacking to avoid taking further damage. In sum, it keeps the balance of things "on the front foot," as Ensign would say.
Also, it's something to fall back on if one or both of the ER's gets their energy spiked down. Stacked with Blood Bond, it gives the sins a better shot at surviving long enough for ER to come back up. (And also encourages them to kill rather than kite.)
The added damage for OoP over OoV with Scan is 17*.75=12.75 per hit. And with Scan and BuH 20.1875 per hit. That's not trivial. In fact, it's a huge amount of damage given 3 or 4 sins with their ridiculously compressed attack speeds. The question is whether it's worth giving up a heal of 17 per hit to get that damage. I agree with Xeno that the general answer is "no," though I could be convinced otherwise for areas where the pressure facing the ER's is so low that they'll be Infusing out of boredom anyway.
As for Dark Fury:
1. Mark of Fury is a much better substitute now than it was before. Assuming people stay on target, it's got ~75% as much adr gain (1.5x as much adr with 0.5x the uptime), plus the cracked armor if the target somehow survives 5 sec.
2. The only adr skill the sins have is SY!, which they can maintain reasonably well simply by chain casting (or randomly spamming) based on their silly attack speed alone.
I think you slightly missed the point. If you trigger all 6 splinter weapon triggers in one attack, your DPS is technically insanely beyond anything that GDW could do. The fact that the group is now dead means that you don't need to maintain that DPS forever. You take the 4 seconds to get to the next group in the mob, get another splinter, and use all your splinter triggers in 2 attacks, which still puts your DPS well above GDW. By the time you're out of grouped up foes, the other 3 melees who are cspacing have killed off anything thats left, and you continue on to the next mob, well surpassing the DPS of the physicals with GDW on them.
The conditions for Splinter surpassing GDW are really quite contrived. Splinter's recharge time is 5 seconds and for maximum DPS you need to use all the triggers Splinter offers within that time and have the triggers hit the maximum number of people.
The biggest "spike" possible with this is to use it on a Ranger with Barrage in a scenario that somehow fulfills all the conditions.
If you do trigger all those triggers at once (5 at 16 Channeling) then yes, your DPS is quite high in the period of the attack - but that's not relevant unless the entire mob is instantly destroyed by that single action, which is simply not going to be the case in any area that matters.
Then there's the simple logistics of using Splinter Weapon. It's 5 energy every 5 seconds on 4 physicals - you're simply not going to get any decent uptime on it compared with GDW and the conditions for it even beginning to surpass GDW are very situational and quite unlikely.
Ultimately you have Splinter on one physical versus GDW on all the physicals.
And that doesn't even mention that Splinter Weapon required a massive Channeling spec on a character - the only viable option is on a Rit.
The biggest "spike" possible with this is to use it on a Ranger with Barrage in a scenario that somehow fulfills all the conditions.
If you do trigger all those triggers at once (5 at 16 Channeling) then yes, your DPS is quite high in the period of the attack - but that's not relevant unless the entire mob is instantly destroyed by that single action, which is simply not going to be the case in any area that matters.
Then there's the simple logistics of using Splinter Weapon. It's 5 energy every 5 seconds on 4 physicals - you're simply not going to get any decent uptime on it compared with GDW and the conditions for it even beginning to surpass GDW are very situational and quite unlikely.
Ultimately you have Splinter on one physical versus GDW on all the physicals.
And that doesn't even mention that Splinter Weapon required a massive Channeling spec on a character - the only viable option is on a Rit.
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenomortis
For a retarded second I thought Asuran Scan was a significantly lower percentage increase. Indeed, trivial was definitely the wrong word to use.
The conditions for Splinter surpassing GDW are really quite contrived. Splinter's recharge time is 5 seconds and for maximum DPS you need to use all the triggers Splinter offers within that time and have the triggers hit the maximum number of people.
The biggest "spike" possible with this is to use it on a Ranger with Barrage in a scenario that somehow fulfills all the conditions.
If you do trigger all those triggers at once (5 at 16 Channeling) then yes, your DPS is quite high in the period of the attack - but that's not relevant unless the entire mob is instantly destroyed by that single action, which is simply not going to be the case in any area that matters.
Then there's the simple logistics of using Splinter Weapon. It's 5 energy every 5 seconds on 4 physicals - you're simply not going to get any decent uptime on it compared with GDW and the conditions for it even beginning to surpass GDW are very situational and quite unlikely.
Ultimately you have Splinter on one physical versus GDW on all the physicals.
And that doesn't even mention that Splinter Weapon required a massive Channeling spec on a character - the only viable option is on a Rit. My point was never to replace GDW completely, but simply to bring one copy of splinter and spam it on one of your physicals. The other 3 would still keep GDW. Having only 3 physicals need GDW means that you only need it on one of the ERs instead of both. When you are playing in this style, and using, say, an erf shakur, you can get 12 splinter triggers in 2 seconds fairly easily by using crude-->whirlwind and having a competent rit. That comes out to around 700 damage per foe if I did my math correctly(I think I messed it up), which is more than enough to kill enemies.
It also just so happens that there's a rit on this team that's specced heavily into channeling, so it's not like it would be hard to fit in.
By the way, I've been using the 17 spec numbers for splinter, as the pvx page states that it requires cons.
The conditions for Splinter surpassing GDW are really quite contrived. Splinter's recharge time is 5 seconds and for maximum DPS you need to use all the triggers Splinter offers within that time and have the triggers hit the maximum number of people.
The biggest "spike" possible with this is to use it on a Ranger with Barrage in a scenario that somehow fulfills all the conditions.
If you do trigger all those triggers at once (5 at 16 Channeling) then yes, your DPS is quite high in the period of the attack - but that's not relevant unless the entire mob is instantly destroyed by that single action, which is simply not going to be the case in any area that matters.
Then there's the simple logistics of using Splinter Weapon. It's 5 energy every 5 seconds on 4 physicals - you're simply not going to get any decent uptime on it compared with GDW and the conditions for it even beginning to surpass GDW are very situational and quite unlikely.
Ultimately you have Splinter on one physical versus GDW on all the physicals.
And that doesn't even mention that Splinter Weapon required a massive Channeling spec on a character - the only viable option is on a Rit. My point was never to replace GDW completely, but simply to bring one copy of splinter and spam it on one of your physicals. The other 3 would still keep GDW. Having only 3 physicals need GDW means that you only need it on one of the ERs instead of both. When you are playing in this style, and using, say, an erf shakur, you can get 12 splinter triggers in 2 seconds fairly easily by using crude-->whirlwind and having a competent rit. That comes out to around 700 damage per foe if I did my math correctly(I think I messed it up), which is more than enough to kill enemies.
It also just so happens that there's a rit on this team that's specced heavily into channeling, so it's not like it would be hard to fit in.
By the way, I've been using the 17 spec numbers for splinter, as the pvx page states that it requires cons.
maxxfury
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
My point was never to replace GDW completely, but simply to bring one copy of splinter and spam it on one of your physicals. The other 3 would still keep GDW. Having only 3 physicals need GDW means that you only need it on one of the ERs instead of both. When you are playing in this style, and using, say, an erf shakur, you can get 12 splinter triggers in 2 seconds fairly easily by using crude-->whirlwind and having a competent rit. That comes out to around 700 damage per foe if I did my math correctly(I think I messed it up), which is more than enough to kill enemies.
Have one dude run in a couple of seconds before the other 3, have the mobs start converging on him on him, then hit some aoe? while the others come straight in? thats kinda what everyone does anyway naturally isnt it, as there is almost always one more dominant frontliner from my exp, even if its only a few steps infront..due to been the most aggressive.
Even in cspace style one person always takes the lead a little, and thats usually enough to draw the initial agro to them to start with, and that gets the mobs into blossom/scythe/melee aoe range for everyone.
One copy of splinter weapons on the rit for big easy to pull groups (eg all melee mob), isnt a bad idea. Gettin the max effect everytime isnt a lock tho... but is deffo a viable option to take on occasion, if you frontline happens to comprise of the right aoe viable toons. It adds a nice spike when it works, but its far from 100% needed to roflstomp thru with such a steamroller of frontline damage you get from buffed phys. Often quicker to just bulldoze thru balls deep depending on the mobs composition and size.
the whole "you must ball n nuke all the time or you suck!" mentality and dogma is the problem, as hell, most if nto all of the time its not needed due to the massive killing speed of buffed phys. but everyone agrees that a little agro management* is good thing! thats not in dispute. is it? lol
And im talking in general terms here, not just the posted versions of "phys way" specifically.
*not just balling, bow pulling, corner pulls ect, can just be a simple thing as one guy is a second or two ahead of everyone else, to grab some attention and close the gaps in the mob.
Even in cspace style one person always takes the lead a little, and thats usually enough to draw the initial agro to them to start with, and that gets the mobs into blossom/scythe/melee aoe range for everyone.
One copy of splinter weapons on the rit for big easy to pull groups (eg all melee mob), isnt a bad idea. Gettin the max effect everytime isnt a lock tho... but is deffo a viable option to take on occasion, if you frontline happens to comprise of the right aoe viable toons. It adds a nice spike when it works, but its far from 100% needed to roflstomp thru with such a steamroller of frontline damage you get from buffed phys. Often quicker to just bulldoze thru balls deep depending on the mobs composition and size.
the whole "you must ball n nuke all the time or you suck!" mentality and dogma is the problem, as hell, most if nto all of the time its not needed due to the massive killing speed of buffed phys. but everyone agrees that a little agro management* is good thing! thats not in dispute. is it? lol
And im talking in general terms here, not just the posted versions of "phys way" specifically.
*not just balling, bow pulling, corner pulls ect, can just be a simple thing as one guy is a second or two ahead of everyone else, to grab some attention and close the gaps in the mob.
Smarty
I joined the physway group yesterday for SoO and it was ridiculously fast and easy. Running the torch was harder work than killing stuff. The only painful part of the whole experience was seeing how many physical pugs weren't prepared to ditch their self defence skills and go all-out damage when forming the team.
For an 8-player team build that's designed to be grab-and-go for 5 out of 8 slots, it does exactly what it says on the tin - provided the grab-and-go's are prepared to run one of the many builds which will work in the team.
For an 8-player team build that's designed to be grab-and-go for 5 out of 8 slots, it does exactly what it says on the tin - provided the grab-and-go's are prepared to run one of the many builds which will work in the team.
HigherMinion
It's the Wammos that annoy me the most. They say "no tank wtf" or "Lion's Comfort doesn't just heal me, it has super synergy!" And "Without Defy Pain, I die"... Classic wammo always has PI and either EVAS or an Asura summon spell. I don't know when this kind of build is ever effective. Endure Pain, Defy Pain; it's that person that likes to have high health.
But they don't listen alot of the time when you tell them to change; they either don't reply at all and leave, or try and defend themselves poorly.
But they don't listen alot of the time when you tell them to change; they either don't reply at all and leave, or try and defend themselves poorly.
Life Bringing
The problem with MoP when you're taking agro first(eg, one war running in first to get agro on himself) is that you have to wait for the agro to settle, wait for mop to be cast, and above all, you either need to a) Be using 100b or b) have everyone pound on the same target. With splinter, you can rush in and start blowing shit up without waiting for anything else. The benefits of using erf shakur over 100b are in the aoe knockdowns, which prevent a large number of the damage packets (basically what you're using the sos for now). ES also has 2 aoe attacks for better splinter distribution.
HigherMinion
It's not due to inexperience, it's laziness, why we bring Earthbind. And when MoP doesn't have a recharge, you really don't have to wait to use it wisely. You spam it and call like hell, hoping something attacks your target. It will trigger more often than Splinter, and deal more damage with BuH active.
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard
Anything that splinter hits, MoP will also hit.
Err, not really. Say you're using an erf shakur. With crude, even if you hit 6 foes, you only get 1 trigger of MoP. However, if you use splinter and hit 6 foes, you get 6 triggers(5, depends on attribs, w/e). Primary reason why i said using a 100b was an exception.
maxxfury
You hit with splinter and cause your 6 procs, mop also procs on everyone adjacent too..
But then your splinter is exhausted and needs to be recast, whereas mop is still proccing on everyhit from you, your melee, ranged phys, spears...
Splinter provides a nice spike, and mop better dps, conclusion? run 1 copy of each if your gonna ball every group no matter the sizes and can ensure you team is exp enough and gonna follow the ap-mop's calls, and keep gdw on the res, for the better dps boost and kd abuse..
But pvx rating say its all fail, doesnt work and is equal to a melee mancer....good times
But then your splinter is exhausted and needs to be recast, whereas mop is still proccing on everyhit from you, your melee, ranged phys, spears...
Splinter provides a nice spike, and mop better dps, conclusion? run 1 copy of each if your gonna ball every group no matter the sizes and can ensure you team is exp enough and gonna follow the ap-mop's calls, and keep gdw on the res, for the better dps boost and kd abuse..
But pvx rating say its all fail, doesnt work and is equal to a melee mancer....good times
Arrogant Bastard
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxxfury
You hit with splinter and cause your 6 procs, mop also procs on everyone adjacent too..
But then your splinter is exhausted and needs to be recast, whereas mop is still proccing on everyhit from you, your melee, ranged phys, spears...
Splinter provides a nice spike, and mop better dps, conclusion? run 1 copy of each if your gonna ball every group no matter the sizes and can ensure you team is exp enough and gonna follow the ap-mop's calls, and keep gdw on the res, for the better dps boost and kd abuse..
But pvx rating say its all fail, doesnt work and is equal to a melee mancer....good times
I'm done with the PvX build because some mods have taken a personal issue with the build (if its not h/h via discord or a SC team, it's blasphemy).
There is no point in further debate because this is how the arguments generally turn out:
Me: X and Y demonstrate that Z is true
Mod: No.
Me: I disagree, and I actually have proof. You sir or ma'am are wrong.
Mod: No, I can't be wrong. If you disagree with me, you are banned.
Impartiality, objectivity, fact, and logic mean little if you aren't a mod or one of their friends.
But then your splinter is exhausted and needs to be recast, whereas mop is still proccing on everyhit from you, your melee, ranged phys, spears...
Splinter provides a nice spike, and mop better dps, conclusion? run 1 copy of each if your gonna ball every group no matter the sizes and can ensure you team is exp enough and gonna follow the ap-mop's calls, and keep gdw on the res, for the better dps boost and kd abuse..
But pvx rating say its all fail, doesnt work and is equal to a melee mancer....good times
I'm done with the PvX build because some mods have taken a personal issue with the build (if its not h/h via discord or a SC team, it's blasphemy). There is no point in further debate because this is how the arguments generally turn out:
Me: X and Y demonstrate that Z is true
Mod: No.
Me: I disagree, and I actually have proof. You sir or ma'am are wrong.
Mod: No, I can't be wrong. If you disagree with me, you are banned.
Impartiality, objectivity, fact, and logic mean little if you aren't a mod or one of their friends.
Arrogant Bastard
HigherMinion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard
That actual conversation happened in real-time.
Also, Minion got banned for reverting a Mod's edit (that or flamming, i forget). Yeah; mod reverted three times before I even reverted once, quite an odd ruling system they have. The police aren't aloud to joyride, nor are judges aloud to lock people up for kicks. As funny as that would be...
Also, Minion got banned for reverting a Mod's edit (that or flamming, i forget). Yeah; mod reverted three times before I even reverted once, quite an odd ruling system they have. The police aren't aloud to joyride, nor are judges aloud to lock people up for kicks. As funny as that would be...
DigitalFear
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
nor are judges aloud to lock people up for kicks. As funny as that would be...
Lololololololololol!
Yeah. You're right. I can't say I really get it either.
Yeah. You're right. I can't say I really get it either.
Life Bringing
How can someone revert three times before a revert happens?
@Arrogant - Maybe that's what you interpreted from the argument, but I seriously doubt that's the actual, word for word, conversation.
@Polar, whoru?
@Arrogant - Maybe that's what you interpreted from the argument, but I seriously doubt that's the actual, word for word, conversation.
@Polar, whoru?
Arrogant Bastard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
How can someone revert three times before a revert happens?
@Arrogant - Maybe that's what you interpreted from the argument, but I seriously doubt that's the actual, word for word, conversation.
@Polar, whoru? WTB sarcasm
(But sadly the actual arguments weren't far from that)
@Arrogant - Maybe that's what you interpreted from the argument, but I seriously doubt that's the actual, word for word, conversation.
@Polar, whoru? WTB sarcasm
(But sadly the actual arguments weren't far from that)
HigherMinion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
How can someone revert three times before a revert happens?
Arrogant adds bars.
Admin reverts. (1)
Mike reverts Admin.
Admin reverts once more. (2)
I revert her and make a sarcastic comment that she's violating revert laws made by PvX people.
Admin bans me; and reverts back once more. (3)
gg.
Arrogant adds bars.
Admin reverts. (1)
Mike reverts Admin.
Admin reverts once more. (2)
I revert her and make a sarcastic comment that she's violating revert laws made by PvX people.
Admin bans me; and reverts back once more. (3)
gg.
maxxfury
Never argue in someone elses house, they bring their friends round...then their mom bans you from going round anymore..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Quote:
@Maxx, I thought we were comparing mop vs splinter, not mop+splinter
Quote:
Yah i suggested that, as i knew the outcome when the roasting began on the talk page.|
after 5/6 procs your splinter is exhausted and needs to be recast, whereas if you was using mop it would still proccing on everyhit from you, your melee, ranged phys, spears... Splinter provides a nice spike, but mop better dps, conclusion? run 1 copy of each
Athrun Feya
technically something like splinter weapon+crude swing has a slightly larger range than MoP. Crude swing hits adjacent so therefore splinter weapon hits adjacent to adjacent foes whereas MoP is just adjacent to whatever it was cast on.
Anyway, for the people QQing about pvx; PvX has similar problems to GWW in that you need to read a manual of policies before trying to contribute, there's also a lot of unwritten build 'standards' that more regular users are used to. We deal with a lot of new users posting unique builds every day (eg, Healer's Covenat PvE monks). If it is inferior or a variant of what already exists on PvX (likely) then we have to say, look, here's our policies, this will be deleted soon. Unlike guru, we don't have archives to link to to explain why certain builds are bad and unlike guru, just leaving an inferior build (or thread to a Healer's Con monk) won't make it disappear after a time, unfortunately there's always a need to confront the builds author. A lot of new members become understandably hostile when their creations are tagged as unsuitable/trash/dupe, especially since everyone thinks their build is the best thing since sliced bread. You can imagine after doing this for a year and a half it gets pretty tiring. The main issue we had with this build was it was pretty much a compilation of builds already on pvx and what we call an 'optionals nightmare'. Also that it appeared to be a build for general PvE (vanqs, dungeons, etc) which required 8 players which is a quite unrealistic situation for many players. I offered early on that a guide might be more suitable but that offer understood/wasn't taken up. What you have to remember that your/gurus opinions of what builds are optimal are not necessarily the optimal ones (and I'd say the same for PvX, we don't necessarily have the optimal builds hosted). The main reason for this is an absolute optimum doesn't actually exist; yet despite this people argue and argue about over which builds are "better", often making very one sided arguments which neglect several factors. Guru posters tend to quote maintainable dps/heals per second with screens of master of damage which really couldn't be further from the overall story. Also minion, having been warned 2 days previously for revert wars then proceeding to revert something which had to twice be reverted by an admin definitely qualifies you for a ban (whether it was different people who reverted before you is irrelevant, you still re-reverted it when it was somewhat clear that you shouldn't have).
Arrogant Bastard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athrun Feya
technically something like splinter weapon+crude swing has a slightly larger range than MoP. Crude swing hits adjacent so therefore splinter weapon hits adjacent to adjacent foes whereas MoP is just adjacent to whatever it was cast on.
Anyway, for the people QQing about pvx; PvX has similar problems to GWW in that you need to read a manual of policies before trying to contribute, there's also a lot of unwritten build 'standards' that more regular users are used to. We deal with a lot of new users posting unique builds every day (eg, Healer's Covenat PvE monks). If it is inferior or a variant of what already exists on PvX (likely) then we have to say, look, here's our policies, this will be deleted soon. Unlike guru, we don't have archives to link to to explain why certain builds are bad and unlike guru, just leaving an inferior build (or thread to a Healer's Con monk) won't make it disappear after a time, unfortunately there's always a need to confront the builds author. A lot of new members become understandably hostile when their creations are tagged as unsuitable/trash/dupe, especially since everyone thinks their build is the best thing since sliced bread. You can imagine after doing this for a year and a half it gets pretty tiring. The main issue we had with this build was it was pretty much a compilation of builds already on pvx and what we call an 'optionals nightmare'. Also that it appeared to be a build for general PvE (vanqs, dungeons, etc) which required 8 players which is a quite unrealistic situation for many players. I offered early on that a guide might be more suitable but that offer understood/wasn't taken up. What you have to remember that your/gurus opinions of what builds are optimal are not necessarily the optimal ones (and I'd say the same for PvX, we don't necessarily have the optimal builds hosted). The main reason for this is an absolute optimum doesn't actually exist; yet despite this people argue and argue about over which builds are "better", often making very one sided arguments which neglect several factors. Guru posters tend to quote maintainable dps/heals per second with screens of master of damage which really couldn't be further from the overall story. Also minion, having been warned 2 days previously for revert wars then proceeding to revert something which had to twice be reverted by an admin definitely qualifies you for a ban (whether it was different people who reverted before you is irrelevant, you still re-reverted it when it was somewhat clear that you shouldn't have). I don't know how many times this needs to be said, so I'll put this in bold for you. This build isn't for vanquishing. If forming 8-player teams for elite/hard areas is difficult for many players, then they need to find a guild and add people to friends list. This is a multiplayer online game, I don't see how this is even an argument. (again, just in case you didn't notice the bold text above, this isn't for vanquishing). So basically it comes down to this. You don't like Physway because: 1) it's not an H/H team 2) it's not a Speed Clear Since you won't even consider that some people don't like to play Speed Clears and don't like to play with heroes all the time (I think the word is "balanced team"), you selectively apply the policies of PvX (see: ratings). Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athrun Feya
Anyway, for the people QQing about pvx;
PvX has similar problems to GWW in that you need to read a manual of policies before trying to contribute, there's also a lot of unwritten build 'standards' that more regular users are used to. We deal with a lot of new users posting unique builds every day (eg, Healer's Covenat PvE monks). If it is inferior or a variant of what already exists on PvX (likely) then we have to say, look, here's our policies, this will be deleted soon. Unlike guru, we don't have archives to link to to explain why certain builds are bad and unlike guru, just leaving an inferior build (or thread to a Healer's Con monk) won't make it disappear after a time, unfortunately there's always a need to confront the builds author. A lot of new members become understandably hostile when their creations are tagged as unsuitable/trash/dupe, especially since everyone thinks their build is the best thing since sliced bread. You can imagine after doing this for a year and a half it gets pretty tiring. I haven't even set foot on PvX, and I've mostly stayed away from this conversation, but I feel I do need to step in now. I call "bullshit!" Sorry, but this build is provably better than just about anything on PvX. With the arguable exception of SC builds (which are area-specific-optimized, fragile, rigid, and very non-robust) this build is head and shoulders above anything else posted there. Period. PvX has long suffered from the problem that the carefully, scientifically, and democratically determined consensus viewpoint of a bunch of idiots remains, after all that effort, an idiotic viewpoint. (Does anyone remember when Moloch had to call in ringers from Guru to vote for AP-MoP to save it from a "fail" rating at the hands of the PvX regulars? Yeah, I don't see anyone calling AP-MoP fail these days...) But to see mods stepping into the fray in this manner is a whole different level of problematic. When mods use their mod powers to "win" a debate, that completely undermines the integrity of the process. At the end of the day, regardless of whether it's a matter of bad policies or mods abusing good policies to bad ends, the final result is that PvX failed to do in this instance the one thing that justifies PvX's existence, preserving the best builds so that PvX visitors can learn them. maxxfury
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Originally Posted by Athrun Feya
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generally, we know what works around here. PvX has been in business for about 4 years, I think? The fact is that there is heavy bias towards builds that we know work. Theorycrafts are generally frowned upon, but if you can prove us wrong, as Athrun Feya did with Manlyspike, we're more than happy to work with you
Maths didnt prove it, screenies didnt prove it, common sense didnt prove it.hell even letting regulars rudely call people someone with a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior and dark skin, in an offensive way (sadly that part is all too common...) didnt prove it..or barely even got anything in the way of "working with you"..
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You're technically right. Admins on PvX are supposed to stay out of issues that they're involved in, but....you know.....shit happens.Quote:
Don't play semantics with me. The bottom line is this: 1. This team build is a lot better than most of the crap available on PvX. 2. This team build is not available on PvX. It's ridiculous to claim that having (inferior variants of) most of the individual builds posted separately is the equivalent of having the team build posted.|
At the end of the day, regardless of whether it's a matter of bad policies or mods abusing good policies to bad ends, the final result is that PvX failed to do in this instance the one thing that justifies PvX's existence, preserving the best builds so that PvX visitors can learn them.
That ^
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Athrun Feya
Anyway, for the people QQing about pvx; PvX has similar problems to GWW in that you need to read a manual of policies before trying to contribute, there's also a lot of unwritten build 'standards' that more regular users are used to. We deal with a lot of new users posting unique builds every day (eg, Healer's Covenat PvE monks). 1) If it is inferior or a variant of what already exists on PvX (likely) then we have to say, look, here's our policies, this will be deleted soon. Unlike guru, we don't have archives to link to to explain why certain builds are bad and unlike guru, just leaving an inferior build (or thread to a Healer's Con monk) won't make it disappear after a time, unfortunately there's always a need to confront the builds author. A lot of new members become understandably hostile when their creations are tagged as unsuitable/trash/dupe, especially since everyone thinks their build is the best thing since sliced bread. You can imagine after doing this for a year and a half it gets pretty tiring. 2) The main issue we had with this build was it was pretty much a compilation of builds already on pvx and what we call an 'optionals nightmare' . 3)Also that it appeared to be a build for general PvE (vanqs, dungeons, etc) which required 8 players which is a quite unrealistic situation for many players. I offered early on that a guide might be more suitable but that offer understood/wasn't taken up. What you have to remember that your/gurus opinions of what builds are optimal are not necessarily the optimal ones (and I'd say the same for PvX, we don't necessarily have the optimal builds hosted). The main reason for this is an absolute optimum doesn't actually exist; yet despite this people argue and argue about over which builds are "better", often making very one sided arguments which neglect several factors. Guru posters tend to quote maintainable dps/heals per second with screens of master of damage which really couldn't be further from the overall story. Also minion, having been warned 2 days previously for revert wars then proceeding to revert something which had to twice be reverted by an admin definitely qualifies you for a ban (whether it was different people who reverted before you is irrelevant, you still re-reverted it when it was somewhat clear that you shouldn't have). 1) Just curious...why are there variants then? ex)DoA Caster Spike/Manly Spike/Glaiveway/Heroway... 2) Sounds like Manlyway/Caster Spikes fall into this catagory as well, actually any tank and spank tbh. 3) If I am understasnding this requiring 8 players would apply to all SCs and team builds that don't have "heroway" in the name (pretty much). I don't really care any way what happens to any of this.....just looks/sounds like some fishy stuff.
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Athrun Feya
2) 2)both sets of teams have similar builds on pvx, but looking at the usage of both teams give a very different story. In physway you just well... use the builds as they were originally intended on the individual build pages - anyone really could look at pvx and throw together 8 player builds and get physway. If everyone acted the same way when doing manly spike, then "spike" would certainly no longer be an accurate way to describe the build. 3) 3)again it's a question of storing builds that are on par with each other (what heroway loses in speed is made up for by the fact you dont need 8 players). Physway was seen as a slower, 8 player build that still requires cons (for high end content at least), therefore not really on par (you could argue it is better on the basis of "safety" but I think optionals nightmare put everyone off from the start). 1) What qualifies as "on par"? 2) I was referring more toward manly Rragars, manly Bogroots, manly Kath, manly FoW...etc having basically the same builds....and caster spike for varying areas...basically all having the same set up. ex) Manly: perma tank, hb wars, channel rit...etc...pretty much same builds across different areas 3) This would have to have the "on par" question answered, but I don't see how this and those compare. This is focused on ease of use...i.e. get PuG throw on the builds and go. Almost like an Easy Button team build. While some SC builds require lots of experience and more to pull off this does not, hence it's advantage. One can simply load build and almost blindly spam skills their way through the games high end content. Thus allowing inexperienced players to complete HM high end with ease. It's speed trade off is ease of use. So yes SCs have speed advantage but this has an ease advantage. It's a different catagory...much like Heroways and SCs..they both have their advantages and disadvantages. The use of cons ?..is simply BUs...no other cons are used/required.....kind of a non issue as most inexperienced players will glady chip in 1-4k to complete some high end content. Side Note* My only conclusion I can derive from this is that the set up is not liked on wiki b/c it does not require different builds for different areas. It is not a SC so should not be compared to them, it requires little to no experience hence is PuGable, some parts can be performed by heros, it can complete mutiple HM high-end content with the same builds, and as far as a guide goes..here it is...bond up, now go spam skills and kill everything. Balls to the wall no extra thought required to win. It's trade off is ease over time. Most SC's are not easy to use but are fast. They both have their advatages yet both have their drawbacks. ex) Some SCs pretty much require a SC guild and extensive practice and thus are not very good for the avg pvx user, yet they are fast. Chthon
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Originally Posted by Athrun Feya
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Funny; in your attempts to appear slightly partial you simply dismiss everyone. And what are these "both sides"? The side the understand the concept and are open-minded and the closed-minded side; who don't understand why people would want to play together in PvE?
That is one of the most biased things I have ever read, and I've recently read a Republican review of the health care bill (it was bad).
"Both sides" = those for the build (bandwaggoning a non-meta, purposeless PvE build) vs. those against the build (bandwaggoning before testing based on PvE norms).
Again, it's pretty cute. Especially how quickly you guys respond
"Both sides" = those for the build (bandwaggoning a non-meta, purposeless PvE build) vs. those against the build (bandwaggoning before testing based on PvE norms).
Again, it's pretty cute. Especially how quickly you guys respond
Essence Snow
I'll admit I'm on the bandwagon for this. I didn't create and or help create nor did I have any input on it. I actually doubted it.....then I was asked to join a group using it. I have to say after using it, I am more than happy to jump on the bandwagon. Simply put it works and it works well.
Note* afking 9 rings allows for thread watching....lol
Note* afking 9 rings allows for thread watching....lol
HigherMinion
Could have done better if I wasn't the only one bonding and had a OoV/SoH buffer instead of a fifth physical.
It was a fun run anyway. Only reason I used a grail was due to having to bond everyone alone (sadface). No nabs died in the making of this screenshot.
Reformed
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
If there's one post with honest feedback in this entire thread, I'd be shocked.
"PvX: Because only idiots actually test builds" GG?
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Reformed
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"Both sides" = those for the build (bandwaggoning a non-meta, purposeless PvE build) vs. those against the build (bandwaggoning before testing based on PvE norms).
I'm suggesting that both sides of this issue are dumb. It could have gone through the normal procedures of PvX and possibly even done well, but there was just too much bandwaggoning on either side.
Tbh, if there weren't so much drama around it, I could see it vetted right now.
Tbh, if there weren't so much drama around it, I could see it vetted right now.