PvE EASY MODE: General PHYSWAY

It could have gone through the normal procedures of PvX and possibly even done well, but there was just too much bandwaggoning on either side.

Tbh, if there weren't so much drama around it, I could see it vetted right now. Here's the thing KJ--I never knew any of these people before random chance got me into a group sometime this past September. When I first saw the build I thought it looked extremely sloppy, viable sure, but sloppy. I've been playing with most of the people in this thread since and can say beyond any shadow of a doubt this is extremely sturdy for something PuGs can use. Like many others I was a huge skeptic but over a very large amount of trial and error they made a believer out of me. All of the drama you are talking about was completely avoidable if site administrators were forced to either pick at the build or play moderator but not both. The previous analogy describing it as allowing a boxer to simultaneously be the referee is exactly right. I'd also point out the notion of 'sides' is laughably absurd. Armed with only fact and opinion when the 'opposition' can whip out bureaucratic procedure simply because they don't like a style of play isn't exactly fair.

Here's the thing KJ--I never knew any of these people before random chance got me into a group sometime this past September. When I first saw the build I thought it looked extremely sloppy, viable sure, but sloppy. I've been playing with most of the people in this thread since and can say beyond any shadow of a doubt this is extremely sturdy for something PuGs can use. Like many others I was a huge skeptic but over a very large amount of trial and error they made a believer out of me. All of the drama you are talking about was completely avoidable if site administrators were forced to either pick at the build or play moderator but not both. The previous analogy describing it as allowing a boxer to simultaneously be the referee is exactly right. I'd also point out the notion of 'sides' is laughably absurd. Armed with only fact and opinion when the 'opposition' can whip out bureaucratic procedure simply because they don't like a style of play isn't exactly fair. The drama could have been avoided by either group. Granted, Athrun shouldn't have gotten involved, but the rest of the admins stayed out of it and just tried to help clean up votes on the build and prevent conflict.

Either side of this issue could have grown a pair and ended the drama, but neither did. That's the truth.

From the outside, it all looked very childish (but what can you expect from gamers?).

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way.

The drama could have been avoided by either group. Granted, Athrun shouldn't have gotten involved, but the rest of the admins stayed out of it and just tried to help clean up votes on the build and prevent conflict.

Either side of this issue could have grown a pair and ended the drama, but neither did. That's the truth.

From the outside, it all looked very childish (but what can you expect from gamers?).

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way. How is one NOT subjective when arguing for what they think? It's just like atheism vs theism; pointless because theists aren't going to look at the evidence.

Also the only way we could avoid it is by taking it down and not responding; but that would have defeated the object of the game. We did listen to criticism when it wasn't "it dun work". We tried splinter, we tried hammer wars, etc. But we still lost.

The drama could have been avoided by either group. Granted, Athrun shouldn't have gotten involved, but the rest of the admins stayed out of it and just tried to help clean up votes on the build and prevent conflict.

Either side of this issue could have grown a pair and ended the drama, but neither did. That's the truth.

From the outside, it all looked very childish (but what can you expect from gamers?).

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way. When someone made a valid point, I looked into it.

Specifically, the Orders bars and Splinter were what I was able to find a "conclusion" for.

Interestingly enough, the people who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "the build looks OK but the Orders bar and lack of Splinter = fail" quickly shifted to "LOL who plays 8-player teams when you can SC or h/h" once I put out some more info.

It seems as though their actual goal was just to prevent the build from getting vetted properly regardless of its merits.

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way. I wasn't involved in any of the drama I am telling you exactly what I see.

It was noted several times by several people that this build was not meant to do X or Y but Z instead and was written expressly for that purpose. An admin jumped in and said 'To hell with all that it's doing X and Y because I said so and don't touch it or it's 1RV'. The rest is history.

When someone made a valid point, I looked into it.

Specifically, the Orders bars and Splinter were what I was able to find a "conclusion" for.

Interestingly enough, the people who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "the build looks OK but the Orders bar and lack of Splinter = fail" quickly shifted to "LOL who plays 8-player teams when you can SC or h/h" once I put out some more info.

It seems as though their actual goal was just to prevent the build from getting vetted properly regardless of its merits. Tbh, I saw my points addressed and voted a 4.8 :>

? Oh wait, now I remember, my team build got sslashed by the same moderator gods at guru: KJ, Athrun, etc. Question: What build did you submit?

Oh wait, now I remember, my team build got sslashed by the same moderator gods at guru: KJ, Athrun, etc. Wait....I'm a moderator on Guru? News to me.

Oh, and I'm anything but a god....except maybe in bed. I'm glad that you think of me as a god though. It's nice to be appreciated.

On a more serious note, and I've said this countless times, PvX is a tool to host the most commonly used or overpowered builds. Often, non-meta builds have a harder time getting vetted based solely on that. That's why we have places like Guru for people to discuss builds, make them meta, and then get them on PvX.

It was noted several times by several people that this build was not meant to do X or Y but Z instead and was written expressly for that purpose. An admin jumped in and said 'To hell with all that it's doing X and Y because I said so and don't touch it or it's 1RV'. The rest is history. We were told it was a very pug-safe build from the start (which i'd agree with) and we were told it could do everything (which was then changed later to exclusively elite areas and harder dungeons, for some reason). Comparing to SC's actually came much later on, after the ban in fact, from a regular member of pvx. The whole idea guru'ers are trying to get across about what happened on pvx is a very, very skew and falsified version of the truth.

The point I made from the start and have made subsequently on guru and pvx, was it was unsuitable for pvx because it was a general optionals nightmare. I said earlier that if a group of people, say, wanted to use this "pug friendly" build in DoA but didn't actually have much experience there, they'd have no idea if significant hex/cond removal is needed or not, so no idea what to take for half the builds on the original version of the build. this is really the reason why we wanted something slightly more specced out (saying what you absolutely MUST take but still flexible, since it's a pug build) for certain areas.
. Well there was a simple solution to that; where I had put instructions to hex,enchant-strip,condition heavy areas; simply list the main areas these occur. Easy fix.

The build is AS flexible as all your builds with a shit-ton of variants and "Optional slots" for each secondary profession. And if we were to do a guide for each type of area, the builds would look identical apart from two skills. So what's the point? We atleast want PUGs to think a *little* bit.

You don't need detailed usage for every area. Again, this would be pointless and seem like page-filling. Wherever you go the tactic is the same, and only changed in two situations. Pop Essence-Bond everyone- Keep everyone alive-c-space and finish the mission. There's really no reason to add a usage apart from "don't go and be dead."

When someone made a valid point, I looked into it.

Specifically, the Orders bars and Splinter were what I was able to find a "conclusion" for.

Interestingly enough, the people who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "the build looks OK but the Orders bar and lack of Splinter = fail" quickly shifted to "LOL who plays 8-player teams when you can SC or h/h" once I put out some more info.

It seems as though their actual goal was just to prevent the build from getting vetted properly regardless of its merits. Agreed. Me and Tom took splinter with us, we took shadowsteps. We didn't see the same results. We bring up the stats on a situation like Splinter vs GDW or BuH vs IATS!, people change their arguments. I feel we aren't going to win with PvX, so I'm not paying as much attention to the arguments anymore.

This is why its funny (I'll be honest, it doesn't annoy me anymore) when we're called stubborn or told that we don't listen to others suggestions for the team. I mean hell, I changed my opinion on OoV through discussions on wiki and have now decided that OoP/DF is superior in some situations.

We've done our testing, we've shown our stats. These people need to go out and try things and come back with a counter-argument. Because i feel we're happy to address any stats and/or arguments, instead of changing the subject.

New meta for non-pug team should be all wars and MoP (not minion). I'm too impatient to wait for things to bawwwwwl.But most things balled themselves last run; and the damage from the sins was fine. I could spam AP and MoP on each foe. I prefer the big single-target damage with only one or two 100lolz wars. Wouldn't consider dropping all of the sins, atleast.

We need more people who want to do the Deep with us. We mostly need physicals, necros who can run OoP/Aegis and MoP; Monks who can clean/SoH and UA-partyheal.

If anyone would like to join in a Physway run anywhere, post your IGN or PM me ingame or on the forums.

Also, if you want to practice your ERing skills with us, you're more than welcome to. We currently have two active ERs. One retired, two that don't play too often. So we need to get some more so I can run something else for once.

~Minion I'll see what I can do to be online more often when you silly Euro people are still awake.

I'm interested, but finding time is hard, let alone big chunks to play GW in.

NOTE: I've barely got any Deep experience, but I'm a good enough Warrior. I've got an ER ele as well but I haven't got too far with her yet. Finished Prophecies and just passed Cavalon in Factions, iirc. The required experience when joining our teams are pretty much minimal unless you're the one ERing. We will draw, shout, explain, spam call things we want you to kill. Something people don't seem to do in PUGs these days.

Probably only two things I'd note about the Deep... At the start, one physical has to take all the aggro from the Rippers; because if you're both hit with temple strike, you'll be stuck with no damage. Secondly.... Actually, that's it.

You could just run a melee ranger. Yeah i guess. It's down to preference on whether the person likes to shoot things or slash things.

The obvious winner is Melee. Ranged has it's tastes when running a mop and doing Trip/Dual shot package damage rape.

Panic mesmer might be a viable choice now after the update. AoE rupts are win. Mesmers still aren't a damage character and unless they significantly help the team deal damage they're an inferior choice most of the time.

Used the UW Physway posted on wiki last night with 7 ppl that had nvr heard of it and 6/8 had nvr been in UW. Neither of the ERs had run ER bonder builds b4 and we still finished in HM. Even though it took a lil bit of time to complete (2hr)....I think that the absolute inexperience of the group says something about the builds. You got past 4H with inexperienced ER's?

Very impressive. I imagine it would be slightly easier for inexperienced groups due to the lack of cocky attitudes spread about the group, as is apparent in mine. We piss about, spamming eachother, cursing and drawing swastikas on the compass, lol.

2 hours is very good for a first attempt and once you become comfortable with the builds, you will be adapting to kill only the necessary mobs and split more often. (for example UWG) Excuses?

I thought you came up with this (or stole the idea from someone) and yet you keep failing when I'm not there to babysit you.

Learn to 4h.

On another note, gogo try Panic mesmer. We did 4H; then we died running to Pools, due to recklessness...

We did 4H; then we died running to Pools, due to recklessness... Nono, the run where you let the reap0r die.