Soul Reaping is overpowered. We all know this. When used for anything other than minion masters, SR allows for almost unparalleled abuse of secondary professions. Quite often an N/X can outperform the profession that it emulates, harming the viability of builds for other professions. Even with just their own profession, necromancers are incredibly powerful. There is no excuse for them to be playing other professions better then that profession can play itself.
Why is SR overpowered? The answer is, to fuel minions. Yet, a cursory glance at death magic reveals that minions are very expensive. Why are they expensive? Because SR gives so much energy.
So, the simple answer is to nerf SR while simultaneously decreasing the cost of minion skills.
"But won't making minions cheaper allow other professions to be better MMs than necros?"
No, because minions, like spirits, scale considerably based on the attribute they are linked to. Health, level, armor, damage, and number of minions are all determined by one's death magic. Other professions are limited to 12 death magic, whereas a necromancer can have 16. This ensures that regardless of how strong or weak SR is, necromancers will always be the best MMs.
Soul Reaping:
For every 2 ranks of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds.
Minion Costs:
Animate Bone Fiend - 15 energy
Animate Bone Horror - 5 energy
Animate Bone Minions - 10 energy
Animate Flesh Golem - 5 energy
Animate Shambling Horror - 10 energy
Animate Vampiric Horror - 10 energy
Aura of the Lich - 10 energy
Order of Undeath - 5 energy
Nerf Soul Reaping
reaper with no name
Midnight Sands
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
"But won't making minions cheaper allow other professions to be better MMs than necros?"
No, because minions, like spirits, scale considerably based on the attribute they are linked to. Health, level, armor, damage, and number of minions are all determined by one's death magic. Other professions are limited to 12 death magic, whereas a necromancer can have 16. This ensures that regardless of how strong or weak SR is, necromancers will always be the best MMs. |
And you didnt say how your going to nerf soul reaping, so cant comment on anything else..
Zahr Dalsk
No thanks, boring though Discord is, it's still the best option casters have when going H/H.
reaper with no name
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Midnight Sands
Wrong since 9/10 times people want a bomber to soak up damage+deal some extra, not a stable MM like people used to have years ago. Besides which, the minions would die just as fast at 16 as at 12 in HM, so it makes little dif. Rt/N would end up better for explosive/ect.. Same thing applies to spirits, other classes run them just as well, many people run SoS/splinter on smite monks, ect..
And you didnt say how your going to nerf soul reaping, so cant comment on anything else.. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Soul Reaping: For every 2 ranks of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds. |
Furthermore, why would you ever run a human minion bomber? Heroes are far better at it, making the argument of what profession does it better pointless. Either way, the best minion bomber will not be a human.
Also, no, other classes cannot run SoS (or spirit spam builds in general) as well as a Ritualist. They can get relatively close, but they will never quite reach the rit's level of ownage with them.
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Also, no, other classes cannot run SoS (or spirit spam builds in general) as well as a Ritualist. They can get relatively close, but they will never quite reach the rit's level of ownage with them.
|
FoxBat
Soul reaping is one of many things broken about PvE. I'd love to see that and everything else nerfed like ER, SY etc, but it seems absurdly unlikely.
Bulletproof Maniac
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
You are wrong, because the difference is so negligible that they're virtually the same.
|
Rushin Roulette
Wow... another carebare thread?
How about nerfing every single primary atribute so that they are all completely useless? Slowcasting Mesmers anyone? Warriors that dont have any Armor penetration? Eles with hardly any energy? Dervishes that dont ... well, Dervs anyways....
While Anet is at it they should change every single skill so that they do only 1 damage or heal for 1 HP each. That way threads like this wont be needed any more.
Ever tried a Ritualist Minionbomber? They are about as good as a necro any day and the bombing part is also way easier than a player trying to necrobomb. Does that now refute your whole point in the OP? Btw, there are more than enough good necro builds out there that do NOT involve one or more Minionmasters/bombers.
Also while were at that... Necros have already been nerfed twice already (Minions were onse uncapped and Soulreaping used to trigger at EVERY death, not only 3 times every 15 seconds).
How about nerfing every single primary atribute so that they are all completely useless? Slowcasting Mesmers anyone? Warriors that dont have any Armor penetration? Eles with hardly any energy? Dervishes that dont ... well, Dervs anyways....
While Anet is at it they should change every single skill so that they do only 1 damage or heal for 1 HP each. That way threads like this wont be needed any more.
Ever tried a Ritualist Minionbomber? They are about as good as a necro any day and the bombing part is also way easier than a player trying to necrobomb. Does that now refute your whole point in the OP? Btw, there are more than enough good necro builds out there that do NOT involve one or more Minionmasters/bombers.
Also while were at that... Necros have already been nerfed twice already (Minions were onse uncapped and Soulreaping used to trigger at EVERY death, not only 3 times every 15 seconds).
dusanyu
base energy return based on how many necromancer skills are on your bar
upier
MagmaRed
I remember when Soul Reaping allowed for inifinite energy return. No waiting 5 seconds, no limit on spirits, and you could also have more than 10 minions withou skills like Masochism. When they nerfed Soul Reaping the first time there was a huge QQ session about it. Eventually everyone got over it, but it had complaints for a LONG time. I personally see no problem with Soul Reaping large enough to warrant another nerf.
Reformed
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
Wow... another carebare thread?
|
reaper with no name
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
Wow... another carebare thread?
How about nerfing every single primary atribute so that they are all completely useless? Slowcasting Mesmers anyone? Warriors that dont have any Armor penetration? Eles with hardly any energy? Dervishes that dont ... well, Dervs anyways.... While Anet is at it they should change every single skill so that they do only 1 damage or heal for 1 HP each. That way threads like this wont be needed any more. Ever tried a Ritualist Minionbomber? They are about as good as a necro any day and the bombing part is also way easier than a player trying to necrobomb. Does that now refute your whole point in the OP? Btw, there are more than enough good necro builds out there that do NOT involve one or more Minionmasters/bombers. Also while were at that... Necros have already been nerfed twice already (Minions were onse uncapped and Soulreaping used to trigger at EVERY death, not only 3 times every 15 seconds). |
Minion Bombing is better accomplished by heroes, making the question of which profession is better at it moot.
Yes, there are a lot of good necromancer builds that don't involve minions. Too many, in fact. That is, many of them are builds that other professions are supposed to be better at, yet they get crowded out of them by necromancers.
For example, let's assume for a fleeting moment that tomorrow Anet were to make elementalist nukes good again. Would this make Elementalists useful as nukers? No, it wouldn't, because N/Es would abuse SR and outcompete true eles, much like how they used to outcompete true rits.
They have been nerfed...And yet the problem still exists. Hence, another nerf is needed.
upier
Reformed
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by upier
The energy gain is not consistent with the skill needed to gain it.
|
masterjer1
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MagmaRed
I remember when Soul Reaping allowed for inifinite energy return. No waiting 5 seconds, no limit on spirits, and you could also have more than 10 minions withou skills like Masochism. When they nerfed Soul Reaping the first time there was a huge QQ session about it. Eventually everyone got over it, but it had complaints for a LONG time. I personally see no problem with Soul Reaping large enough to warrant another nerf.
|
Cuilan
You like your necro the way he is because you can do any role you want as well or better than other professions and players. Not because he fits a role you enjoy or is on anywhere near equal ground. Nobody is making one play a certain way is false. Go take a look at the latest skill updates and understand people who play want to contribute to a group they're in. What's the point of having people rely on others or necromancer heroes to get them anywhere?
Balance, not everything worthless. Don't confuse the two.
The over-synergized and powered professions are either going to have to be nerfed or others should have mass skill and attribute buffing.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
How about nerfing every single primary atribute so that they are all completely useless? Slowcasting Mesmers anyone? Warriors that dont have any Armor penetration? Eles with hardly any energy? Dervishes that dont ... well, Dervs anyways....
|
The over-synergized and powered professions are either going to have to be nerfed or others should have mass skill and attribute buffing.
Kook~NBK~
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MagmaRed
I remember when Soul Reaping allowed for inifinite energy return. No waiting 5 seconds, no limit on spirits, and you could also have more than 10 minions withou skills like Masochism. When they nerfed Soul Reaping the first time there was a huge QQ session about it. Eventually everyone got over it, but it had complaints for a LONG time. I personally see no problem with Soul Reaping large enough to warrant another nerf.
|
masterjer1
[QUOTE=Cuilan;5103656]You like your necro the way he is because you can do any role you want as well or better than other professions and players. Not because he fits a role you enjoy or is on anywhere near equal ground. Nobody is making one play a certain way is false.QUOTE]
You are assuming. Never assume anything. Maybe I could play my necro that way in your eyes. But I don't. I like my necro the way he is because he fills a niche for me. No one makes me play a way if I don't like it. If I haven't been to a cretain area with a class, I will take suggestions yes. Anet is a given, I was speaking of pugs in general. Besides, if you think SR is overpowered, then go without it. No one is making you use and abuse it, unless you are that weak willed.
You are assuming. Never assume anything. Maybe I could play my necro that way in your eyes. But I don't. I like my necro the way he is because he fills a niche for me. No one makes me play a way if I don't like it. If I haven't been to a cretain area with a class, I will take suggestions yes. Anet is a given, I was speaking of pugs in general. Besides, if you think SR is overpowered, then go without it. No one is making you use and abuse it, unless you are that weak willed.
Cuilan
Your weak willed and PUG pressure stuff is meaningless. You also ignored or skipped over players who want to contribute to a group or even with H/H instead of them doing most of everything. That's nice that you may enjoy necromancers original niches but that doesn't make them balanced. A player should be allowed to work hard and see the benefits from it while having fun.
Targren
"Nerf" in title.
Lack of content in post.
/notsigned
Lack of content in post.
/notsigned
Johny bravo
Lets just nerf secondaries. That way no one profession could out play another one at their own game.
Fear The Apocalypse
I still do not understand why everyone QQ's over which class is OP or which is not. Does it really effect the game that much to where you don't have fun? NOT OMG that is OP and can solo anything... BUT FUN! Isn't that the intent of a game?
Take ER (for example) it allows ele's out performs monks in many cases does that mean we should nerf it too? I know ER is a skill and SR is an att but the comparison to your argument is the same-"There is no excuse for them to be playing other professions better then that profession can play itself." Same can be said for many builds.
SR is fine the way it is. I play Necro as a primary so sure I may be biased but to me the way SR attribute works is just fine.
According to the OP, the poster only wants SR nerfed cause of one possible build out of HUNDREDS. You even said it yourself the reason minions cost so much is because you get so much back from SR. That's a balance in its self.
To me making the ratio ranks-SR return 2:1 will make the Attribute nearly obsolete. The only way that would be remotely viable is to remove the/ lessen the time restraint of 3times in 15seconds that you can gain energy.
To be honest and granted this is my PERSONAL opinion, why nerf the attribute to make it more stressful for Necros to use when it works just fine the way it is? Why kill the fun?
Take ER (for example) it allows ele's out performs monks in many cases does that mean we should nerf it too? I know ER is a skill and SR is an att but the comparison to your argument is the same-"There is no excuse for them to be playing other professions better then that profession can play itself." Same can be said for many builds.
SR is fine the way it is. I play Necro as a primary so sure I may be biased but to me the way SR attribute works is just fine.
According to the OP, the poster only wants SR nerfed cause of one possible build out of HUNDREDS. You even said it yourself the reason minions cost so much is because you get so much back from SR. That's a balance in its self.
To me making the ratio ranks-SR return 2:1 will make the Attribute nearly obsolete. The only way that would be remotely viable is to remove the/ lessen the time restraint of 3times in 15seconds that you can gain energy.
To be honest and granted this is my PERSONAL opinion, why nerf the attribute to make it more stressful for Necros to use when it works just fine the way it is? Why kill the fun?
Cuilan
How is running out of energy, wanding, or not having many skills to choose from that are worth using fun or helpful to a group?
Fear The Apocalypse
It's fun because it is a game. You're contributing to the party in one way or another by being in the group. You're adding to the damage of the party one way or another. And even if you are not doing ALL THE DAMAGE or in your words"only dealing a fraction of damage" I still found running monk in groups as a healer or bonder just as satisfying as running a damage dealer. Same as running Mesmer in DOA. Playing BIP in groups. It all contribute to the game and your team. If it is not fun then stop playing.
And why bring up the argument "as a group"? If you nerf the soul reaping attribute solely for group purposes then you're forgetting about the Solo part of game play.
And why bring up the argument "as a group"? If you nerf the soul reaping attribute solely for group purposes then you're forgetting about the Solo part of game play.
Coverticus
Before any further "nerf" I would prefer ANet to overhaul the AI, particularly in the use of energy and thus the management of it. Yes, I run 2 necros in my setup purely because of the fact that the current version of SR offsets the effect of stupid heroes.
Maybe once the AI is stable, then look at overpowered areas of the game.
/Unsigned
Maybe once the AI is stable, then look at overpowered areas of the game.
/Unsigned
robmdq
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
... Also while were at that... Necros have already been nerfed twice already (Minions were onse uncapped and Soulreaping used to trigger at EVERY death, not only 3 times every 15 seconds).
|
Note that i've been away from the game for a while, but as far as i was searching udates on my main character classes (that's how i found this one) i see no fix to recover the old prophecies MMs
Ariovist Lynxkind
I guess necros will become the new SF/600smite....
#Dismantle
#Dismantle
Cuilan
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fear The Apocalypse
And why bring up the argument "as a group"? If you nerf the soul reaping attribute solely for group purposes then you're forgetting about the Solo part of game play.
|
Guild Wars is indeed a game, but that doesn't change anything said in this thread. I guess you wouldn't mind certain professions as wanders, leechers, or minion food. Hey, they're having fun! Crit wand attack ftw!lololo!
Rushin Roulette
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Or better yet, let's just nerf the stuff that allows certain professions to play as another profession better than that profession can? That way, you know, everyone can have fun, and not just the people with the overpowered class(es).
Minion Bombing is better accomplished by heroes, making the question of which profession is better at it moot. Yes, there are a lot of good necromancer builds that don't involve minions. Too many, in fact. That is, many of them are builds that other professions are supposed to be better at, yet they get crowded out of them by necromancers. For example, let's assume for a fleeting moment that tomorrow Anet were to make elementalist nukes good again. Would this make Elementalists useful as nukers? No, it wouldn't, because N/Es would abuse SR and outcompete true eles, much like how they used to outcompete true rits. They have been nerfed...And yet the problem still exists. Hence, another nerf is needed. |
Necros are pretty crap at melee (Dervs, Sins, Warriors or Paragons are better at that role. Heck, even Rits, Mesmers and Monks are better Meleemancers than Necros are).
Monks are better protters and Healers than Necros (a N/Rt healer is only better at removing conditions than the average Monk bar... but so is a Monk with Draw conditions. A Necro with Foul Feast can even remove conditions better than the whole N/Rt bar).
Rits are better Spirit spammers, and they have a very good Minion Bomber build that players can use (they can easily crowd out Necros if players would accept them).
Eles will always be the better Nuke spammers because the high energy pool with good Energy management skills still beats SR without Ele runes.
Mesmers will also always be better Interrupters and general crowd control because of fast casting and their own Skills.
Each profession has its upsides and downsides. Just because there are so many Necro bars that rely on secondary profession skills doesnt mean that necros are automatically better than those other professions at them. it just means that players have thought about more bars for Necros that use other skills... nothing more and nothing less.
The thing about SR is... either you get loads of Energy if things die at just the right time, or you get none because things arent dying fast enough... or you get too much because your Energy reserve is already full and 1 or 2 of those deaths within the 15 second limit are comletely wasted.
What you are trying to do is not balance the Necro profession, its just trying to make other professions into sub-par Necros.
Amaurosis
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
When used for anything other than minion masters, SR allows for almost unparalleled abuse of secondary professions. Quite often an N/X can outperform the profession that it emulates, harming the viability of builds for other professions.
|
. I've only seen about 3 necros running N/Mo, 1 necro N/E, and a couple of N/Me mainly using backfire/empathy. I can understand N/Rt to some degree
but saying SR allows for unparalleled abuse is an opinion, because you're assuming your always going to get the kill. Even if that was the case most of the time the energy gain from SR won't balance out with the spells you have to cast prior to the opponents death, whether you're running an offensive or defensive bar. The professions you're "abusing" can go beyond 12 att and can prove to be a little more successful damage/support wise, which imo evens out with the gain from soul reapingIf SR is the problem then you're basically calling for a nerf to expertise
as well, since it affects attack skills, touch skills, and spirits from other professions. But that wasn't the entire issue seeing as how rangers were able to use defensive capabilities with the cheaper attack skills more efficiently. The trade-off is that necros may gain energy bonus but they also lack the primary attribute for that profession as well as the ability to go beyond 12 in any of it's attribute. I don't understand the idea behind this nerf. Is it to encourage people to use other professions, which most of the time they do, or to stop relying on SR for survivability.
Cuilan
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
Necros are pretty crap at melee (Dervs, Sins, Warriors or Paragons are better at that role. Heck, even Rits, Mesmers and Monks are better Meleemancers than Necros are).
|
Quote:
| Eles will always be the better Nuke spammers because the high energy pool with good Energy management skills still beats SR without Ele runes. |
Quote:
| Mesmers will also always be better Interrupters and general crowd control because of fast casting and their own Skills. |
Quote:
| Each profession has its upsides and downsides. |
Johny bravo
Actually its not even the necro that is overpowered individually its that as a team they extremely effective.
Take 2 necro healers and see how long they last in HM. Then try it with 2 monks. Its not the fact one necro can do monks job better its that as a team they can all do the monks job better.
Also by themselves necros can't run any build more effectively then the specific class. It is not until you introduce minions into the mix that they become more effective. Normally I would say you are now giving up 2 spaces for one, but since the minions not only provide a source of damage but also mini tanks to adsorb damage I don't think you are sacrificing a spot.
Take 2 necro healers and see how long they last in HM. Then try it with 2 monks. Its not the fact one necro can do monks job better its that as a team they can all do the monks job better.
Also by themselves necros can't run any build more effectively then the specific class. It is not until you introduce minions into the mix that they become more effective. Normally I would say you are now giving up 2 spaces for one, but since the minions not only provide a source of damage but also mini tanks to adsorb damage I don't think you are sacrificing a spot.
Twin Blade Warriror
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MagmaRed
I remember when Soul Reaping allowed for inifinite energy return. No waiting 5 seconds, no limit on spirits, and you could also have more than 10 minions withou skills like Masochism. When they nerfed Soul Reaping the first time there was a huge QQ session about it. Eventually everyone got over it, but it had complaints for a LONG time. I personally see no problem with Soul Reaping large enough to warrant another nerf.
|
the good times
Rushin Roulette
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cuilan
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...t10422887.html
The necromancer will be using armor ignoring damage for nuking and other methods of damage. Mesmers are one of the worst at interruption. A rit or ele can spam and/or maintain Great Dwarf Weapon. Hammer warriors or crit hammer sins can knock them down. lol. |
2. Eles using Necro skills will deal more consistent damage than Necros using Ele skills due to the fact that the skills themselves are armor ignoring and not because one profession is better than another. That has nothing to do with SR at all.
3. Someone casting GDW on another character is not interrupting anything specific. Its just a random chance at having someone else knockdown a foe at some random point in time at the offchance that the knockdown will be during a usefull skill or not. More to, that caster NEEDS someone else to do the actual hitting, because GDW is a non-self targeting skill. Thats different than a Mesmer or ranger directly interrupting a key skill or locking down a whole skillbar with a skill such as Powerblock for example. You apparently dont know how evil a good mesmer can be, if played well.
MagmaRed
I play my Necro quite a bit, and the build I use hasn't changed in the past year and a half to 2 years. It uses nothing but Necro skills and Necrosis, Technobable, and Sin Support. I don't use Necro heroes for anything but an MM (Jagged Bones bomber), and only take that one unless I'm required to use Master of Whispers. I fully understand that large numbers of people are using Sabway and Discord builds which capitalize on SOul Reaping. But I don't use a N/Rt or N/Mo to do my healing when I run hero+hench. I take a Monk and hench Monk. I rarely see energy management concerns from my hero Monk, and my Dunkoro uses Unyielding Aura which is a maintained enchantment lowering his energy regen.
I don't use the builds being described as overpowered, but I don't see them as overpowered. Although I do see some being a little too powerful, it isn't because of Soul Reaping that they become so.
I don't use the builds being described as overpowered, but I don't see them as overpowered. Although I do see some being a little too powerful, it isn't because of Soul Reaping that they become so.
HigherMinion
Soul Reaping Is NOT Overpowered.
I should end there, but I should explain. Soul Reaping is a bit like having a treat after a good kill; 50e+(8/9*3) Every 15 seconds, you will have a burst of energy, but if you kill too fast, you will not feel the benefit of +9 energy; more +2 or +3 unless you just spam your entire bar.
It does not compare at all to Ether Renewal, or some Dervish skills, for energy management. Nor Ritualist's Siphon Spirit skill. Expertise isn't as good, but there are skills to help every profession with energy management.
Necromancer skills are often expensive. Let's face it, to continually spam OoP and DF, you NEED Cultist's Fervor. What does that tell you? Soul Reaping isn't Overpowered. QQ less, please.
P.S. Someone might want to clarify anything I've said as I tend to be misunderstood.
I should end there, but I should explain. Soul Reaping is a bit like having a treat after a good kill; 50e+(8/9*3) Every 15 seconds, you will have a burst of energy, but if you kill too fast, you will not feel the benefit of +9 energy; more +2 or +3 unless you just spam your entire bar.
It does not compare at all to Ether Renewal, or some Dervish skills, for energy management. Nor Ritualist's Siphon Spirit skill. Expertise isn't as good, but there are skills to help every profession with energy management.
Necromancer skills are often expensive. Let's face it, to continually spam OoP and DF, you NEED Cultist's Fervor. What does that tell you? Soul Reaping isn't Overpowered. QQ less, please.
P.S. Someone might want to clarify anything I've said as I tend to be misunderstood.
Cuilan
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
That bar can work for necros, but a Warrior
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
Heck, even Rits, Mesmers and Monks are better Meleemancers than Necros are).
|
Quote:
| Someone casting GDW on another character is not interrupting anything specific. |
Quote:
| You apparently dont know how evil a good mesmer can be, if played well. |
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bulletproof Maniac
Boon of Creation among other things is a big difference.
|
Desert Rose
Instead of simply nerfing SR imo the better option is to rework it so that it's weaker in PvE but more widely useable in PvP.
But from a more general viewpoint the core problem isn't that necro's primary attribute or necro's skills are far more powerful compared to other classes but that in PvE the roles the necro performs well are far more useful than e.g. the roles the mesmer performs well.
But from a more general viewpoint the core problem isn't that necro's primary attribute or necro's skills are far more powerful compared to other classes but that in PvE the roles the necro performs well are far more useful than e.g. the roles the mesmer performs well.